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np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

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partially fitting both the offensive and support characteristic

Under which characteristic was Crobat nominated? I assume support, however I remember people wanting to nominate him under both offensive and defensive.
Tangrowth is rather wall- like in nature... It fits well into stall teams, it just happens to hit hard also.

As is Rhyperior. Which was the point I was attempting to get across.
But what if they just set up spikes on your ass too. That gives gallade and Raikou and the like easy KOes on your Pokemon.

My team has three taunt'rs and if that doesn't prevent setup. I also have Blastoise to Spin.
 
About the Gallade argument. Its no doubt Gallade is chilling between the UU and BL. Gallade definitely needs more play testing to determine its dominance. I for one think its powerful and is extremely easy to use on your team and extremely difficult to manage when playing one. I'm leaning towards UU because of its 80 Base Speed to threaten anything on this fast-paced metagame.
 
+1 HP Ice vs 252 HP / 144 SpD Careful Venusaur (the set I'm running/put up for analysis that I'm hoping becomes the standard): 40.66% - 48.35%, no 2hko w/SR and lefties.

if you run an unnecessarily offensive raikou: 45.6% - 53.85%

that's + 1, and venusaur packs synthesis and EQ to take out raikou if need be (mine also runs roar for all the set up sweepers, but moot point) even with the most offensive of raikous (excluding specs i guess) you can reliably switch into the calm mind and get it out, kill it, or stall it out if need be. SE hidden powers don't matter much against special walls

A Venusaur with no atk investment doesn't come anywhere close to ohkoing Raikou with Earthquake, while Raikou comfortably 3hkos you. All you can do is Roar it out, and hope that you bring in a Pokemon incapable of hurting it (somewhat difficult, as everything on my team except one Pokemon is capable of doing >50% damage to it).
 
Guys, just a quick question.

Should I run Surf/IB or Surf/EQ on my Blastoise? I need to break Raikou subs, but my new team hasn't met any so far (over 30 matches, lol) and I want some advice.
 
Run surf IB and just carry dugtrio for raikou lol
is alakazam seriously UU? He's gonna dominate the metagame in UU now, seeing as he 2hkos at worst every top special wall in UU
 
All of the priority in UU make Alakazam even harder to use in UU than it did in OU. He's still looking as mediocre as ever.
 
Has anyone found a Rhyperior set they'd deem successful? I've tried utility Rhyperior, rock polish and bulky sp def/sd in sand and have found all of them surprisingly underwhelming considering how much I love him in OU. But in UU i'm really having trouble finding a spot to bring him in. Everything in UU right now seems to have a way to cripple rhyperior without going out of their way. So he just sits in the background and doesn't really do too much until the match is pretty much already over.

Also side comment I'm loving bulky roar raikou give it a try on stall it's neat!
 
Has anyone found a Rhyperior set they'd deem successful? I've tried utility Rhyperior, rock polish and bulky sp def/sd in sand and have found all of them surprisingly underwhelming considering how much I love him in OU. But in UU i'm really having trouble finding a spot to bring him in. Everything in UU right now seems to have a way to cripple rhyperior without going out of their way. So he just sits in the background and doesn't really do too much until the match is pretty much already over.

Also side comment I'm loving bulky roar raikou give it a try on stall it's neat!

I've had limited success with the sub set, but its abysmal Speed and SpD make it very hard to stay in after one or two attacks.
 
A Venusaur with no atk investment doesn't come anywhere close to ohkoing Raikou with Earthquake, while Raikou comfortably 3hkos you. All you can do is Roar it out, and hope that you bring in a Pokemon incapable of hurting it (somewhat difficult, as everything on my team except one Pokemon is capable of doing >50% damage to it).

or recover in his face. with 112 attack evs (leftover from the 144 SpD you easily 2hko him, so, send in venusaur when he's in, if he cms, he only 3HKOs you while you 2HKO back (or just roar him out), if he subs, you can break the sub or just roar it out with 25% less health, or if he tries to get you before boosting, the HP Ice will do about 30% and you can do whatever you want. Why would I wait for him to boost before switching in? come in on the boost.

also, you're specific team might be able to hurt it (if you're running nothing but strong physical attackers, alakazam and houndoom), but most teams have 3 or so polemon it doesn't care about.

I've been running a support perior that works pretty well, sets up rocks well and laughs in honchkrows face
 
Bulky SDef Rhyperior in Sand is absolutely amazing. There is no feeling better than taking 40% from a Timid Raikou's HP Grass and OHKOing it back with Earthquake. It also lived silly shit like opposing Rhyperior's Aqua Tail, EQ from most anything interesting, and some random water attacks. It can even take Surf from Milotic or Slowbro and respond with awesome force. The set is the following:

Rhyperior (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP/16 Atk/16 Def/224 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn
- Stealth Rock / Rest

Rest is really nice if you have a Heal Beller on your team. Altaria works well since it resists four of Rhyperior's 5 weaknesses. Lanturn is also an interesting choice, though Altaria is usually your best bet for UU Heal Belling, but UXIE ZOMG is another alternative that I have been thinking of. Heal Bell / Psychic / Reflect / Light Screen with a little wishpass action from something like Leafeon or Umbreon might be just what a stall team needs to fight back against wtfgallade.
 
What kinda of sets are people coming up against on Gallade? I without hesitation initially chose and stuck with Leaf Blade as my third attack with the SD set with CC and Shadow Sneak.

Bulky SDef Rhyperior in Sand is absolutely amazing. There is no feeling better than taking 40% from a Timid Raikou's HP Grass and OHKOing it back with Earthquake. It also lived silly shit like opposing Rhyperior's Aqua Tail, EQ from most anything interesting, and some random water attacks. It can even take Surf from Milotic or Slowbro and respond with awesome force. The set is the following:

Rhyperior (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 252 HP/16 Atk/16 Def/224 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn
- Stealth Rock / Rest

Rest is really nice if you have a Heal Beller on your team. Altaria works well since it resists four of Rhyperior's 5 weaknesses. Lanturn is also an interesting choice, though Altaria is usually your best bet for UU Heal Belling, but UXIE ZOMG is another alternative that I have been thinking of. Heal Bell / Psychic / Reflect / Light Screen with a little wishpass action from something like Leafeon or Umbreon might be just what a stall team needs to fight back against wtfgallade.

I imagine it would take it even better with Solid Rock :D
 
What kinda of sets are people coming up against on Gallade? I without hesitation initially chose and stuck with Leaf Blade as my third attack with the SD set with CC and Shadow Sneak

Back when most Spiritomb were still running Sucker Punch instead of Shadow Sneak, I actually ran Taunt in the third slot. It prevented the cheeky bugger from coming in and WoWing you. Also prevents phazing from the likes of Altaria and screens from Uxie/Claydol.

I also ran Night Slash in the slot when I used Lum Berry Gallade. 2hkos Spiritomb at +2 after rocks I think.
 
Indeed. Although people have, so far at least, been ignoring the potential of lead Alakazam.
I have been using lead TrickSpecs Zam to great effect. (Trick, Taunt, Psychic, Focus Blast.) Immediate Tomb switch-ins are crippled for the game and allow me to set up on a weak pursuit/sneak. Anything with a Sash is handily beaten, including all those Sash+priority anti leads like Houndoom. Froslass is a no-brainer: if it Spikes, it gets down 1 layer before being Taunted. If it attacks, and most do (haha shadow ball + shard anti-leads) I can switch to a counter and set up, and it gets no Spikes. Either way Froslass, like Tomb, is crippled for life. Ambipom is Tricked on the Fake Out turn (Zam always survives even an Orb) and then Focus Blasted, should he stay in. Often I find he switches out and affords me many free setups later in the game, since he gets one Fake Out and then has to switch.
 
Under which characteristic was Crobat nominated? I assume support, however I remember people wanting to nominate him under both offensive and defensive.

Crobat was unique, it was nominated under all three characteristics. Gallade, IMO, sufficiently qualifies both the Support and offensive characteristics, the reason being the punching of holes - big, big, holes - in the opponent's team.

Raikou has been working pretty well for me, although i'm hesitant to call it BL straight away. The thing is, without a boosting item and nature, it simply does not hit hard enough until it gets a couple of CMs in. But then again, it has ample opportunity to set up those CMs. The Shuca variant is extremely effective, although you have to be at near full health to survive a Donphan EQ, while only HP Ice/ Grass can KO.

Alakazam has been simply disappointing. Only the Sub version seems to be able to get a kill in my experience(though I haven't tried out the lead version), and it suffers from coverage issues if you use Calm Mind.

I have a little discussion topic: which is the best Hidden Power to use on SubCM Raikou? Is it Grass, Ground, Fire, Ice, or Water?
And on the CM + 3 attacks version? Since Shadow Ball is added, I imagine the coverage is easier.
 
Lead Zam prevents SR 100% of the time, occasionally dying in the process, but more likely killing or crippling a valuble member of their team. For offensive teams that can deal with a suicide lead but hate entry hazards (like the spikes everyone is bitching and moaning about), Zam is the lead for you.

Not only that, but if you prevent the hazards, you can bring him back in on his Sash at 1 HP and encore set-uppers.
 
Lead Zam prevents SR 100% of the time, occasionally dying in the process, but more likely killing or crippling a valuble member of their team. For offensive teams that can deal with a suicide lead but hate entry hazards (like the spikes everyone is bitching and moaning about), Zam is the lead for you.

Not only that, but if you prevent the hazards, you can bring him back in on his Sash at 1 HP and encore set-uppers.
About that 100% of the time... Dugtrio is just as fast and so it is actually more of a 50- 50 with him. (not really anything major though)

Alakazam is a pretty solid lead and never really fails to support the team if only a little bit. Definitely on the fragile side for me (not being able to have her around a while was the reason I stopped using froslass)

I lead spiritomb and alakazam has to pretty much die to do anything. Shadow sneak before reflect and then pursuit until they die.

Looks like this-
The player often stays in to encore the pursuit and nets 2 turns of screens and a turn of set up for the next pokemon which is great, but they do have to lose a pokemon to do it and a team should really not be getting swept by anything that early in the match unless it is something that the team is particularly weak to already.

So, even in an instance when he is facing counters(froslass w/ ice shard, spiritomb) he is still supporting the team which is actually an amazing feat for a lead.
 
I'm getting a feeling we may have quite a few Suspects this round, though I don't think all, or even half of them will actually be voted BL. I've finally gotten to experiment a little with a few of the newish Pokemon, so a few comments!

First of all, Gallade is a monster. Once you get a Swords Dance, almost nothing will avoid taking massive damage. Your best bet is probably Weezing, since not many Gallades will have Psycho Cut considering the threat of Spiritomb, but Weezing is so offensively challenged that it is rather a sitting duck for the rest of Gallade's team, in my opinion. In fact, more often than not I find that Weezing and Spiritomb are dead or weak by the time Gallade even comes in (usually in a desperate attempt to stop Honchkrow). I'd be pretty surprised if Gallade manages to survive the permanent BL tag.

I haven't tried using Froslass yet, but considering how badly Froslass has done against me and what the metagame looks like right now, I don't think I'll use it all that much. With all the Ambipom and Spiritomb in UU right now, Froslass can't get up that second layer of Spikes before she dies, so using her just isn't worth it, in my opinion. As things are, I have a hard time seeing Froslass even being named a Suspect again.

Rhyperior is like God's (or possibly X-Act's) gift to UU! It's strong, durable, a great user of Stealth Rock, and the perfect answer to those Swellows, Arcanines, etc. At the same time, it's not so fast or so durable that it's impossible to kill, so I really don't get all the "Rhyperior to BL!" talk. If anything, it reminds me of a slightly more durable, significantly stronger Donphan, but without the priority or Rapid Spin. It's also nice having a more or less reliable switch-in to Honchkrow....

Speaking of Honchkrow, I completely underestimated how big an addition Brave Bird is to Honchkrow's repertoire. Honchkrow OHKOs so many Pokemon now that it's pretty amazing, and particularly taking down a lot of the Pokemon that would otherwise give Gallade problems. Granted, Rhyperior does make a big difference in facing Honchkrow, since it is a reliable switchin, but Honchkrow is still very, very strong. I voted Honchkrow UU the first time it came up, since I have perceived it as sortof the "Salamence of UU", but I'm really starting to thing now that with Brave Bird it's just a little too much to handle, even as relatively slow as it is.

Oh dear, Raikou....where to begin discussing Raikou? On the one hand, Raikou's speed and power are pretty amazing. On the other, I feel that most teams are hardly even trying to stop Raikou. Specially defensive Registeel with Earthquake does stop Raikou cold without using Chansey, so I'm pretty curious to see how things develop with Raikou. I still haven't really made up my own mind whether Raikou deserves to be BL or UU, and I've been using it a lot.

I've found Alakazam to be very disappointing, the way it's been hyped to me! At least until the wave of Spiritomb dies down, I always come away feeling that the slot would be better used on something else. Having a counter is one thing, but Spiritomb counters 'Kazam so badly it's ridiculous, and Spiritomb is incredibly common at the moment (for good reason!).

Speaking of Spiritomb, lately I've enjoyed using a Pokemon I traditionally have avoided: Arcanine. With all the WoWs being thrown around by Spiritomb, I thought it might help to try it out (though I'm usually more of a Nasty Plot Houndoom guy). I've been trying out an offensive set with max attack (i.e. Adamant) and Life Orb using Flare Blitz, Extremespeed, Toxic and Morning Sun. I usually Toxic first move in, to catch incoming bulky waters and Rhyperior. I've long since come to the conclusion that HP Grass doesn't do enough to Milotic to be worth it, and the extra survivability of Morning Sun really helps a lot.

One last thought....."playing defensively" seems to be harder than ever. I'm not talking so much about full stall as trying to play the "balanced" style that UU has seemed to evolve into in the last few months. Milotic is still great and Spiritomb is really useful right now, but they need to account for so many different threats that they can get really badly hurt early in the game, leaving another threat clear to sweep. This is especially true with Honchkrow around to open holes up for Gallade, etc.
 
This metagame is all about setup and seeing stuff like this...

First of all, Gallade is a monster. Once you get a Swords Dance...

I'd really like to think people would prepare their teams for all this setup nonsense.
Speaking of Spiritomb, lately I've enjoyed using a Pokemon I traditionally have avoided:

Houndoom?! MixDoom demolishes this metagame... with proper prediction ^^.

I've honestly think Blastoise is more effective than Milotic in this metagame. Yawn + Roar + Rapid Spin all-in-one Poke is awesome for a setup metagame.

Gallade is a terrible sweeper from my experiences with him. I've had more success with him throwing off T-Waves crippling the oppnents team...

Has anyone found a Rhyperior set they'd deem successful...

Ya. Make use a Jolly Rock Polish@ LO set with Megahorn-SE-EQ-RP. Get a SD Passer and Agility Passer... pass to Rhyperior for Auto-Win. I've stopped using this strategy because it was to easy to pull off and to hard to counter... Of course, if you are using the right passers.
 
Exclamation Point makes a good point about Gallade. Swords Dance is definitely the most threatening set of his, but if it isn’t working that well for you or it doesn’t fit the team, you shouldn’t overlook Gallade’s versatility as a supporter as well. You may just find a niche set for your team.

I mean, let us look at Gallade’s viable support options. Thunder Wave, Encore, Will-o-wisp, Wish, Trick, Hypnosis, Knock Off, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Charm, Disable, Reflect, Light Screen, Taunt, Memento, Grudge, Trick Room, Snatch, Safeguard, Rain Dance, Sunny Day. Even Uxie would kill for that much versatility in the support department. Plus it does have some defensive merit with its enormous special defense and few weaknesses, which combined with its high base Attack is ideal for checking most Raikou. I just thought I’d mention this because some people don’t seem to realize how useful Gallade can be outside of pure physical offense.
 
Ya. Make use a Jolly Rock Polish@ LO set with Megahorn-SE-EQ-RP. Get a SD Passer and Agility Passer... pass to Rhyperior for Auto-Win. I've stopped using this strategy because it was to easy to pull off and to hard to counter... Of course, if you are using the right passers.
It does not work without an SD passed as Milotic, Quagsire, and Slowbro can all survive EQ/megahorn respectively by switching in on the RP and OHKOing with Surf.
 
I wanted to save this strategy for a RMT but w/e.

I use Swellow for Agility passing... no one expects it and it works... well. Pass off to Leafeon who SD's up and sweeps a good majority of teams... clean up with Rhyperior and Azumarril. That leaves two member to do what ever, while you have most threats checked thanks to Swellow/Azu/Rhyp.

With that said... who cares if they pickoff rhyperior. I'll send in Leafeon, SD up, and continue with the massacre.
 
I'd really like to think people would prepare their teams for all this setup nonsense.

I make sure that I am able to setup through 2 main ways. Encore and Choice Trick. I have

1. Alakazam Lead
Trick Specs
Encore

2.Clefable
Encore
Can also run choice trick.

3. Claydol
Trick Scarf

You then form the rest of your team with lots of immunties bulk and resistances that can setup. Favorites of mine are Arcanine, Toxicroak, Lapras, Gallade, Zangoose, Drapion, Feraligator and now Venusaur and Aggron. I should probably give Rhyperior a try as well but usually I find immunities to be better. Mismagius sadly doesn't work in this metagame :(

I want to bring up a couple things.

A simple Lickilicky makes a nice check if not counter to Raikou and can offensively put a hurt most. It really only initially fears fighting moves.

I lazily used the Mixed Set's ev's and tweaked the moveset.
Lickilicky (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 116 HP/252 Atk/140 SAtk
Brave nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Earthquake
- Power Whip
- Ice Beam
- Explosion

I hardly ever found myself using Ice Beam effectively to great and it could easily be replaced with Thunderbolt, Wish, Zen Headbutt for venusaur etc. I'm going to explore Lickilicky in UU more (an all physical set is next) as it has an extremely diverse movepool the offensive stats to use them and the ability to take neutral hits quite nicely.

The other was
Claydol @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 122 HP/252 Atk/136 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Trick

I use it in a non lead position. I get SR up and then usually save it for utility/ checks later in the game. If Raikou gets set up it's outspeed and Earthquaked. I am looking to possibly add speed ev's so i can outspeed and explode on threats like Venusaur after I have tricked away my scarf. Explosion puts a world of pain in for this metagame as ghosts are less popular thanks to Honkrow and Gallade
 
I wanted to save this strategy for a RMT but w/e.

I use Swellow for Agility passing... no one expects it and it works... well. Pass off to Leafeon who SD's up and sweeps a good majority of teams... clean up with Rhyperior and Azumarril. That leaves two member to do what ever, while you have most threats checked thanks to Swellow/Azu/Rhyp.

With that said... who cares if they pickoff rhyperior. I'll send in Leafeon, SD up, and continue with the massacre.

Yeah, i already saw your BP agility Swellow.
I always bring my Aggron thinking you would attack, then you Agility and BP to someone.
Nice tactic... even if my Aggron often Head Smashed the BP receiver not named Rhyperior into oblivion lol
I would like no note that Nidoking is one of the best SD BP receivers IMO.

Immune to Toxic and Thunder Wave, it has Megahorn, a STAB EQ just like Rhyperior,and a priority attack. Rivalry is often useful as it sends Nido attack to high levels since not many people care to switch the genders. And it resists Mach Punch and can attack before Aqua Jet, unlike Rhyperior who greatly dislikes it. He sees any kind of Registeel a chance to get the SD passed to him(unless it explodes...).
 
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