np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Umbreon is a killer Special Wall, and Curse makes it a killer physical one too. After a Curse, it is not 2HKO'd by Moltres Fire Blast or Swellow's Facade, which makes it extremely impressive in my eyes.

How is Curse significant for taking Fire Blasts?

But I definitely agree that Umbreon is insanely good. I can certainly see Missy taking a hit in usage once more people realize how useful and hard to kill it can be.

With Shiftry, I don't think the problem is its offensive potential, it is the defenses and typing that makes it overall less useful than Venusaur. Grass / Poison has great defensive utility, Grass / Dark less so. You can check the odd Missy and Rotom, but only should they not be running HP Fighting or Will-o-wisp. I would definitely go with a set utilizing Explosion on Shiftry, to make it truly stand out amongst other Grass types. It is too slow to make good use of Nasty Plot without priority IMO.

 

[Tangrowth KicksAss]

I totally disagree about the gallade to UU thing same with raikou. Gallade should be in OU because of its base 125 attack and humongous movepool and with 115 special defence to boot. I don't think Raikou should be OU but it should stay in BL because of its great sp atk.

 

[Erazor]

I totally disagree about the gallade to UU thing same with raikou. Gallade should be in OU because of its base 125 attack and humongous movepool and with 115 special defence to boot. I don't think Raikou should be OU but it should stay in BL because of its great sp atk.

Learn how the tiers are calculated. OU depends only on usage, not stats. Same with UU.

Complete and total joke post. The base stats aren't the the only factor that determine if a Pokemon is too powerful. Go back to narutofan or wherever you come from.

There's no need to be so demeaning to a new user.

 

[M BLADE]

Oddly enough, despite all the hype, I've found that Umbreon is the most common of the three OU dropouts, despite what the stats say.

And I'll admit, I'm very impressed with its ability. Basically every Umbreon runs the same set, and it works, for a reason.

Umbreon is a killer Special Wall, and Curse makes it a killer physical one too. After a Curse, it is not 2HKO'd by Moltres Fire Blast or Swellow's Facade, which makes it extremely impressive in my eyes.

Oh yes, Umbreon can be a pain to deal with.
Even with all those Gallade running around.
Without a SE hit,Toxic or Encore, Cursebreon will be a total pain to deal with. I know that because i used to sweep teams with Umbreon before it joined OU. It's like Curse Registeel with less weaknesses and a recovery move.


Arbok with Stockpile/Poison Fang/Spite/Rest is lol annoying to face. Shed Skin lets you cure of the sleep 30% of the time too. Spite gives PP issues to the enemy...One of the best gimmicks around.

Any thoughts on Exeggutor? This thing is nice.

 

[Xia]

To be perfectly honest, I don't think that either Gallade or Raikou are as threatening as Yanmega was. While these two Pokemon typically utilize stat boosts to become dangerous (Swords Dance and Calm Mind, respectively), Yanmega needed neither to literally destroy the entire tier. The lack of immediate threat really hinder the argument for decaring either Gallade or Raikou BL, and is a big enough argument that it could keep one (or both) of them in UU.

There's no need to be so demeaning to a new user.

That's his second post, lol.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Complete and total joke post. The base stats aren't the the only factor that determine if a Pokemon is too powerful. Go back to narutofan or wherever you come from.

Your post wasn't much better...

I totally disagree about the gallade to UU thing same with raikou. Gallade should be in OU because of its base 125 attack and humongous movepool and with 115 special defence to boot. I don't think Raikou should be OU but it should stay in BL because of its great sp atk.

The Pokemon that are OU are calculated using usage statistics. Raikou hasn't had enough usage to be OU, so it's UU, but if it does prove to be ban-worthy, it'll be banned, so there's nothing to worry about. The same goes for Gallade (although he was OU back in the day).

If you want Gallade and/or Raikou to be OU, they'll need to be popularized, and that's quite a difficult thing to do.

 

[A.P.]

With Shiftry, I don't think the problem is its offensive potential, it is the defenses and typing that makes it overall less useful than Venusaur. Grass / Poison has great defensive utility, Grass / Dark less so. You can check the odd Missy and Rotom, but only should they not be running HP Fighting or Will-o-wisp. I would definitely go with a set utilizing Explosion on Shiftry, to make it truly stand out amongst other Grass types. It is too slow to make good use of Nasty Plot without priority IMO.

Shiftry isn't meant to be taking a hit anyways. IMO, the SD set, though I haven't gotten to testing it (tonight), has major potential, with Sucker Punch and Low Kick covering loose ends. The theorymon team I've got uses defensive Gardevoir to Encore certain threats, giving Shiftry free set-up, essentially. And it's faster than Cacturne, despite the lower offenses.

Explosion is nice on a special sweeper, but IMO doesn't really fit on the physical one. Maybe a mixed or Sunny Day sweeper.

 

[M BLADE]

Shiftry isn't meant to be taking a hit anyways. IMO, the SD set, though I haven't gotten to testing it (tonight), has major potential, with Sucker Punch and Low Kick covering loose ends. The theorymon team I've got uses defensive Gardevoir to Encore certain threats, giving Shiftry free set-up, essentially. And it's faster than Cacturne, despite the lower offenses.

Explosion is nice on a special sweeper, but IMO doesn't really fit on the physical one. Maybe a mixed or Sunny Day sweeper.

I believe that he isn't so used becuae:

1-Absol. It can't take a damn hit, but it gets Swords Dance. And Sucker Punch. And that OMFG 130 base attack. Both Absol and Shiftry won't like Mach Punch, but at least Absol can use his Super Luck ability to hit those Mach Punch users with a CH hit. Certainly a OHKO on most of them.

2- His ability. People think it needs Sunny Day to be effective. For special sets, maybe. For physical sets, hell no.

3-Grass type. Given it tons of weaknesses and not the best STAB out there(for sweepers). Grass type is more used to be tankish rather than being sweepers(Venusaur, Tangrowth, Meganium, Vileplume, etc). There's some grass sweepers too(Sceptile, Leafeon...)

Another thing is that 98% of the grass types can learn Swords Dance(it should be a grass move lol) with the exception of tiny little grass pokes (Cherrim, Wormadam... and that's it) so facing so much competition about being a grass user of SD don't help Shiftry.
He does get a strong priority in Sucker Punch... but then it's facing another problem: better users of Sucker Punch. There's plenty, i can assure you.

Shiftry is nice. But it doesn't shine in any area.
I'll do some testing o see how good he can be.

 

[Valantaro]

I am in agreement with Umbreon being insanely dead once set up. I've faced quite a few of them lately after "Team Cursed" was posted, and while I'm all for people exploring new sets, that thing is seriously the most annoying thing I've ever faced in UU ~__~ The main issue I have with it is that my best check to it, Gallade, is absolutely ruined by a boosted Payback. I'm guessing this is one case where Blaziken would be superior, although I don't know if it works well enough to justify its position over Gallade. How do you guys handle this thing? Rhyperior, Steelix, and Donphan, from my experience, don't do enough to stop it (Rhyperior with Megahorn can, but it has to hit it early, or it just becomes as much a set-up fodder as any other generic Special Attacker).

 

[BurtonEarny]

I am in agreement with Umbreon being insanely dead once set up. I've faced quite a few of them lately after "Team Cursed" was posted, and while I'm all for people exploring new sets, that thing is seriously the most annoying thing I've ever faced in UU ~__~ The main issue I have with it is that my best check to it, Gallade, is absolutely ruined by a boosted Payback. I'm guessing this is one case where Blaziken would be superior, although I don't know if it works well enough to justify its position over Gallade. How do you guys handle this thing? Rhyperior, Steelix, and Donphan, from my experience, don't do enough to stop it (Rhyperior with Megahorn can, but it has to hit it early, or it just becomes as much a set-up fodder as any other generic Special Attacker).

that set has been around long before this testing period and that rmt. It is one of umbreon's most viable sets. Encore, Trick items, Status (ones without Heal Bell), and to a lesser extent phazing all help while the physical brute force on most teams prevent it from setting up and the phazing/ intimidate heavy stall teams handle it well also.

 

[Sir Azelf]

I am in agreement with Umbreon being insanely dead once set up. I've faced quite a few of them lately after "Team Cursed" was posted, and while I'm all for people exploring new sets, that thing is seriously the most annoying thing I've ever faced in UU ~__~ The main issue I have with it is that my best check to it, Gallade, is absolutely ruined by a boosted Payback. I'm guessing this is one case where Blaziken would be superior, although I don't know if it works well enough to justify its position over Gallade. How do you guys handle this thing? Rhyperior, Steelix, and Donphan, from my experience, don't do enough to stop it (Rhyperior with Megahorn can, but it has to hit it early, or it just becomes as much a set-up fodder as any other generic Special Attacker).

Wow im actually posting here -shock- lol

Anyways, bulky fighters work well against it, you know, guys like Hitmontop, Blaziken and what not. PHazing moves are great too, Roar, Whirlwind, Haze, Perish Song, Encore. Trick messes it up and so does Taunt.

Will-o-Wisp/Toxic also works if it doesnt pack Heal Bell.

I guess bug types aswell but they are kinda meh tbh.

Fit one of those on your team and you should be fine.

 

[d2m]

Wow im actually posting here -shock- lol

Anyways, bulky fighters work well against it, you know, guys like Hitmontop, Blaziken and what not. PHazing moves are great too, Roar, Whirlwind, Haze, Perish Song, Encore. Trick messes it up and so does Taunt.

Will-o-Wisp/Toxic also works if it doesnt pack Heal Bell.

I guess bug types aswell but they are kinda meh tbh.

Fit one of those on your team and you should be fine.

It's even more fun to Taunt it and set up on it. I ran Taunt/Subpunch Toxicroak, sets up on it easy.

Seriously, Umbreon is quite the 1 trick pony, Taunt and Encore shut it down extremely easily, not to mention phazing.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

There are various ways for teams to deal with a Curse Umbreon really, it is certainly nowhere near broken by any means, just in case anyone was thinking that. As long as you're not relying completely on PHazing and/or status to deal with it, you should generally be fine. Sure, it can sweep lategame from time to time, but lots of Pokes can do that.

Shiftry isn't meant to be taking a hit anyways

True, but I was just pointing out that other Grass types can take hits much better, and that Shiftry doesn't have all that much extra potency as a sweeper to make up for it and justify a spot on most people's teams. And remember, Gardevoir is no Wobbuffet, so when you Encore something non-threatening, they can and probably will switch when you do. Unless you come in on a Magneton to Encore its Sub or something similar, you won't be guaranteeing any free setups this way.

That's not to say that Shiftry isn't viable in UU, far from it. You just have to make sure that it is pulling its weight for your team more than any other Grass type could.

EDIT:

It's even more fun to Taunt it and set up on it. I ran Taunt/Subpunch Toxicroak, sets up on it easy.

80 Atk Umbreon at +1 (279 Attack) using Payback vs 252 / 0 Toxicroak: 24.32 -28.91%

So even max HP Toxicroak's Subs can be broken almost every time by +1 Umbreon without having to run a ridiculous amount of Attack EVs. What spread do you use? Because it would have to be bulkier than that at least.

 

[Urbanism]

Okay, I've been wondering for a while now. Why is Dewgong deep, deep in NU? Hydration is such a broken ability, and Dewgong is bulky enough to take advantage of it effectively. Sure, I could see people making a case for not using it because Water/Ice is kinda bad, or it having an average movepool, but it only being used 321 times all month? Dewgong needs love. :(

EDIT: Wow, just noticed the October stats. 221? :(

Like to see a liiiiittle more discussion on our NU buddy. Is it really not worth using it?

 

[supermarth64]

Like to see a liiiiittle more discussion on our NU buddy. Is it really not worth using it?

The metagame is WAY too unfriendly to Dewgong. Water/Ice is just threatening to get hit by a Close Combat from Gallade or a Thunderbolt from Raikou.

 

[Cuiv]

Like to see a liiiiittle more discussion on our NU buddy. Is it really not worth using it?

The metagame is part of it (as stated above), but the main reason is that HydraRest is simply not abusive enough to be useful without infinite rain. And Dewgong doesn't have the stats to be useful in Ubers (although a Kyogre/Manaphy/Dewgong base for a stall team in Ubers might be interesting; 90/80/95 defenses aren't totally useless, but Dewgong gets hammered by Thunder).

You could try a stallish Rain Dance team with Dewgong, Phione, Toxicroak and Ludicolo. I don't think it would work too well, but at least you get some good type variety in there for defensive purposes (Fighting attacks aimed at Dewgong go to Ludicolo, Fire attacks at Toxicroak go to Phione, Grass attacks at Dewgong or Phione go to Toxicroak, Electric attacks at Dewgong or Phione go to Toxicroak or Ludicolo for the neutral hit, etc.)

Edit:

Such a team might look like this (very, very rough, and also very weak to Raikou and those immune to Toxic Spikes):


Uxie

Rain Dance
Stealth Rock
U-Turn
Memento

Qwilfish (Swift Swim)

Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Waterfall
Destiny Bond

Dewgong (Hydration)

Rain Dance
Rest
Aqua Jet
Icy Wind

Phione (Hydration)

Rain Dance
Rest
Ice Beam
Toxic

Toxicroak (Dry Skin)

Substitute
Focus Punch
Sucker Punch
Toxic

Ludicolo (Rain Dish)

Substitute
Leech Seed
Rain Dance
Focus Punch

 

[MrChuckNorris]

Like to see a liiiiittle more discussion on our NU buddy. Is it really not worth using it?

Well for starters, Dewgong is weak to SR, a major con.
2nd, it Could be out classed by Phione due to its slightly similar stats, and phione has half the weaknesses.
3rd, Dewgong's ice resist isnt as important in UU as it is in OU due to lack of dragons and flying pokes everywhere.
Last, unlike Manaphy, who gets Drizzle from Kyogre, Dewgong is forced to use Rain Dance (unless you can afford other ones), meaning it loses type coverage (unless you do Ice Beam/HP Elec)

Dewgong is a nice poke, but in the UU metagame, its not as helpful as say...
Cloyster or Lapras.

 

[Flamewheeler]

To be perfectly honest, I don't think that either Gallade or Raikou are as threatening as Yanmega was.

That's a pretty big statement. It's funny though. Like yanmega, they both need the right conditions, like any other sweeper to sweep. I see what you're saying though. They do need set up time, but just like yanmega they CAN run choice items, but that does hinder their performance. I guess it sounds like I'm wanting them to stay, but tbqh, they may not be as "threatening" as yanmega was, but they do a very good job at centralizing this metagame in the worst way possible. Which iirc, is a characteristic of a BL poke (don't quote me on that). I guess it could fall under the forcing part of the metagame into submission and making them lose some usage points crap. Flyers are now hella scared of raikou, and frail sweepers not resistant to a ghost type attack are pretty scared of SD gallade. This most may be all over the place, but I think you get it...at least I hope so.

 

[Flashstorm1]

Well, I've recently started using Rain Dance on the ladder, and I have to say, many teams are very unprepared to face it. I've gotten from a 1500 rating to about 1730 just by spamming the team, so I can definitely justify its ability on the ladder. I think the main reason behind UU's current weakness to RD teams is because a lot of Pokémon are more physically defensive now than before, and Gallade has basically made Chansey nonexistant. Also, I find it very amazing how Omastar OHKOes things like Venasaur with Ice Beam.

 

[Heysup]

Well, I've recently started using Rain Dance on the ladder, and I have to say, many teams are very unprepared to face it. I've gotten from a 1500 rating to about 1730 just by spamming the team, so I can definitely justify its ability on the ladder. I think the main reason behind UU's current weakness to RD teams is because a lot of Pokémon are more physically defensive now than before, and Gallade has basically made Chansey nonexistant. Also, I find it very amazing how Omastar OHKOes things like Venasaur with Ice Beam.

Yea, Rain always excels when the metagame centralizes around threats that demand very specific counters, and make other counters obsolete (Chansey for example). Your RD team caught me off guard I remember, it just had specially offensive Pokemon after Specially Offensive Pokemon and soon my special defensive Pokemon just fell after a couple high damage rolls and predictions.

This might be tougher to pull off against certain offensive teams though, ones that use more priority than anything.

 

[whistle]

(I wrote the post then went back to the top and am writing this paragraph now). I actually don't really know how to classify this post -- it's kind of a collection of random thoughts I have about how to apply different arguments about Pokemon to the BL characteristics. just a warning, I suppose.

@ Flamewheeler

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

centralization by itself is not an argument for why a pokemon can be BL -- just saying "Raikou hurts fliers" and "Gallade makes frail sweepers scared" doesn't have any meaning in terms of the characteristics. this isn't to say that centralization can't be an effective supporting warrant for why a pokemon satisfies one of the three characteristics, though. for example, if you say "Gallade fulfills the offensive characteristic because it can sweep through a majority of teams by threatening bulky pokemon with close combat and frail pokemon with shadow sneak. this is shown by the decrease in frail pokemon because of Gallade's centralization" (or something similar), centralization becomes a somewhat effective warrant.

@ Xia

Yanmega just seemed more threatening because its most broken set ("most" being defined by what I remember to be popular opinion but I could be wrong) was a Choice set. when compared to a setup sweeper like Raikou or Gallade, a Choiced sweeper's initial threat value is obviously a lot higher. just because a pokemon is perceived as less threatening initially doesn't mean it can't also be broken. this is because I think how easily a pokemon sweeps should be judged based on two factors: (1) what the "power" of that pokemon is when it is sweeping, and (2) how easily it can get to that level.

the average power of timid specs Yanmega was 496 special attack. the average power of a Raikou while sweeping sweep is +2/+2 or +3/+3 -- make up your own numbers. the difference between the two pokemon is that yanmega can get to its average power with no effort whatsoever; whenever it comes into battle with choice specs on, it has 496 special attack. however, it's much harder to get a Raikou into a state that lets it sweep because your opponent could have a hard counter or a check or two. I think we can all agree that a +6/+6 Raikou is a bitch to face; the question is "how easily can Raikou get enough Calm Minds to sweep?"

thus, when you compare the initial threat value of Yanmega with that of Raikou, of course Yanmega is going to look more broken. its initial special attack is the same as its special attack when it is sweeping through an entire team. Raikou's initial special attack is 50%, 40%, or even 33% of its special attack when it's sweeping through a team. hypothetically, if Raikou or Gallade could each get to +6 against every team, then looking at their initial threat value would be worthless -- this proves that just because a Pokemon has to set up to sweep doesn't mean it is any less BL than one that hits hard off the bat.

of course this is all ignoring the fact that just because something doesn't seem as broken as Yanmega doesn't mean it's not broken...

 

[Flamewheeler]

@ whistle

Those were just simple examples. There is obviously more to it that that, but I was just trying to point it out to Xia.

I also just realized the Alakazam falls under the support characteristic. :O Tbh, I felt like he was one of the least BL pokemon of the batch, but I guess that's because I was looking at offensive prowess. Yet, it is pretty apparent that he falls under support. When can he not set up Dual screens effectively for an X pokemon set up and sweep?

 

[ScantraxxRootz]

I've been fiddling around with Sandslash, and when EV'd in defence and hp it becomes a baby Donphan =o!
It gets access to rapid spin and stealth rock and with a base defence of 110 and a base hp of 75, it's hardly pathetic. It also gets access to super fang and counter, both of which are good wall material!
I'm pretty new to these forums so i'm not sure if Sandslash has been mentioned before, so sorry if it has -.-.

 

[Stagnant]

Slash has higher speed and SD so he isn't completely "outclassed" by Donphan.

Yea, Rain always excels when the metagame centralizes around threats that demand very specific counters, and make other counters obsolete.

Would you care to show me... what Pokemon these are?

Gallade has no true counters, he does however have several viable checks.
Raikou can be countered and checked in a variety of ways.
Alakazam is countered by a handful of Pokemon and checked fairly well as well.
Rhyperior hates all the Water/ Grass moves being tossed around...
Honchkrow has no counters, but checking him isn't that hard.
"Overcentralization" in the lead spot is such a bs statement against Froslass. Ambipom creates that more than anything. "Sure you can take on Lass, whoever, whoever, ect... but Ambipom rapes it."

threats that demand very specific counters

Perhaps I'm just being foolish... please let me know who these threats and specific counters are.

 

[Heysup]

Would you care to show me... what Pokemon these are?

Gallade has no true counters, he does however have several viable checks.
Raikou can be countered and checked in a variety of ways.
Alakazam is countered by a handful of Pokemon and checked fairly well as well.
Rhyperior hates all the Water/ Grass moves being tossed around...
Honchkrow has no counters, but checking him isn't that hard.
"Overcentralization" in the lead spot is such a bs statement against Froslass. Ambipom creates that more than anything. "Sure you can take on Lass, whoever, whoever, ect... but Ambipom rapes it."

threats that demand very specific counters

Perhaps I'm just being foolish... please let me know who these threats and specific counters are.

You missed the second part of that statement, which was basically pointing out how certain Pokemon make various other checks for other Pokemon a liability.

For example, Chansey and Registeel are great checks for Raikou, Chansey is even a "counter". Now, if someone has a Pokemon like Gallade ( with our without Raikou), what's stopping it from switching into Chansey and smashing something that comes in with CC or a coverage move, since you just pointed out "Gallade has no counters". This is why people barely even use Chansey they can help it, because they know if Gallade comes in they will most likely lose a Pokemon.

This means Chansey is going to be used less and less. If Chansey is used less, then what's stopping a specially offensive Rain Dance team from wrecking the metagame?

That's my point.