np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Rajikaru]

I do believe that if banning a signature move can enable a, let's be honest, very interesting Pokemon to fare well in OU, it can/should be banned, I don't know if Aegislash is broken without KS, but I think it's worth giving it a shot tbh.

It's been said multiple times already that it's only Aegislash himself, not KS, that'll either get banned or stay in OU.

 

[MadMunky20k]

I feel like Aegislash should be banned. People say the 50/50s Aegislash brings to the table are the same thing as regular predictions, but honestly, I disagree.
Aegislash's 50/50s are immensely different because it can scout what the opponent's doing, and cripple them in the process.
In my opinion, Aegislash's ability to do this outright punishes a player for attempting to use a Choice item. Once the Aegislash player knows his opponent is Choiced, one King's Shield is instant, thoughtless momentum for the Aegislash player.

I'm going to use the example of a Scarfed Landorus-T vs. an Aegislash. If Landorus Earthquakes into a King's Shield, the Aegislash simply switches into something that can take the Earthquake next turn. If the Landorus instead predicts a switch and goes for a U-Turn, with the Aegislash performing the exact same move, Landorus is immediately at -2 attack and unable to do anything.
No matter what happens during the turn, King's Shield sets up a lose-lose scenario for the Landorus-T, merely because the Landorus player chose to put a Choice Scarf on it.

I feel that Aegislash is detrimental to the metagame because of this. Its presence alone makes the otherwise fantastic Choice items a hinderance to use.

 

[The Shortest Path]

If the Landorus in that example uses U-turn to predict a switch and there wasn't a switch, nothing bad happens to him because KS was used twice in a row and failed.

 

[Immortal]

I don't know if you're calling me out in particular but I definitely didn't post that because Noivern is my favorite Pokemon lol I used that to show some of the diversity that Aegislash has kept at bay. Why are you using prediction in an argument when it goes both ways? Okay. There's a reason I called it a 50/50 and not "lol super predictable". Generally, the risk/reward of using King's Shield is in favor of the Aegislash player, not the opponent.

And I'm not sure what you're trying to say about high level competition considering Aegislash has definitely been one of the top ten used Pokemon in WCoP, if not top five.

yours was one of many posts ive seen about aegislash leaving making a certain pokemon more viable and i just think that if aegislash is banned it should be banned because it is broken, not because people want their favorites to be more viable.

 

[MadMunky20k]

If the Landorus in that example uses U-turn to predict a switch and there wasn't a switch, nothing bad happens to him because KS was used twice in a row and failed.

I'm saying that, on that first turn, the Scarf Landorus player loses momentum no matter what they do because the Aegislash clicked King's Shield.

 

[Ajwf]

Name which one of Charizard, Gliscor, Excadrill, Bisharp, Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus, Talonflame or Tyranitar want to switch in on Aegislash's STABs or one of its coverage moves. That's right. Absolutely none of them. Let me elaborate further. No matter what mon you use to counter Aegislash, like Mandibuzz, it has the coverage to take it out. Aegislash adapts to the changes it forces, which makes it a very centralizing force, requiring 2-3 checks on a team in order to deal with all of its possible moves. Until you know EXACTLY what moves it's running, its safest to assume its running all of them. And here's a list of moves Aegislash runs:

Shadow Ball
Flash Cannon
Sacred Sword
King's Shield
Head Smash
Shadow Sneak
HP Ice(getting popular because SDef Gliscor is becoming popular, which is one of the metagame changes Aegislash has forced)
Iron Head
Swords Dance(Safe to assume not in conjunction with King's Shield if against a competent player)
Autotomize(rare but still exists, often in conjunction with WP)
Substitute
Toxic

and only 4 of the moves give a clue as to what other moves it's running. And thats not to cover the possible items!
Life Orb
Leftovers
Air Balloon
Weakness Policy(very rare at higher level play)
Spooky Plate

So as you can see, Aegislash is VERY versatile. There will be no true counter to all of its sets, the very changes it forces can be adapted to with a simple change in moveslots. I do not think Aegislash is broken, I think it is a very centralizing force in the metagame. No, I will go so far to say it IS the metagame.

"Here's a list of what aegi runs"

C/Ps the whole move pool.

Come on, at what point do you think the multi-set argument gets ridiculous? At the point of shuca berry HP Ice for Gliscor? Every pokemon in the game has Hidden Powers, most special attackers will run them... this doesn't really mean anything when discussing a mon. More importantly, how is it "safest to assume it runs all four" attacks? Are you safely assuming you're playing an idiot? Four attack aegislash is a new trick, I guess. Until otherwise, I'll always assume a shadow ball set with sub/toxic or crumbler depending on the team. If I note a huge whole to something like Mandibuzz, maybe then I get a little suspicious. Until then, I don't see how you'd play assuming something so ridiculous you're literally handing the game away by doing so.

 

[Meru]

yours was one of many posts ive seen about aegislash leaving making a certain pokemon more viable and i just think that if aegislash is banned it should be banned because it is broken, not because people want their favorites to be more viable.

I was trying to elicit how Aegislash's role as a bulky offensive pivot is so massively centralizing that unless something really fast has good bulk (Keldeo), important utility (Prankster Twave Thundurus), or both (Defog Lati@s) then it just becomes overwhelmed by how big of a cockblock Aegislash is to their job (re: why Noivern as well as a lot of fast&frail Psychic-types dropped to BL/UU). This level of support can be seen as broken, as it provides the Aegislash user with massive speed control with its bulky Shield-form while simultaneously boasting wallbreaking prowess with its Blade-form.

While there are other reasons why fast 'mons fell below UU (Thundurus and Talonflame come to mind), Aegislash is still one of the major forces responsible for the fall of a lot of hyper offensive threats.

We're supposed to comment on the changes we found in the new metagame. Aegislash is absent on the suspect ladder for a reason you know...

 

[Giometry]

Except SD a a set recognized and used by high-level players, and Head Smash is used by high-level players? Please, don't make comments like that when you don't know what you're saying.

Plays one role effectively? No way. Lefties 3 attacks KS (general purpose attacker/pivot), SubToxic (staller), fast LO (breaker), and SD (sweeper/breaker) all fill different purposes.

There is no criteria for what is broken in an offensive, defensive, or support mon. The clauses provide a reference but HAVE ABSOLUTELY /NOTHING/ to do with why things are banned.

What you're saying is to an extreme extent, but not even untrue. You need 2-3 Aegislash answers per team. That's not being forced to teambuild around it?

---

If the anti-ban side cannot properly address Aldaron's arguments, again, you're arguing for nothing because whatever 'burden of proof' has been provided.

Might I ask when I said that Head Smash was used by high level players? If I did then it was a wording issue because i definitely think that. In terms of roles I will give you SubToxic (I also said that this set was fantastic) however SD is simply a subpar sweeper and there is a reason that people stopped using it for a long period after the initial usage of it. Whilst it can be used as a breaker it is generally outdone in that regard by many other pokes in the meta. Also Fast LO as a breaker? It just seems ineffective to me as every time I have either attempted using it or came across one against me it just ended up being inneffective and I would have been better off using one of the many other breakers in the meta (Zard, Lando, Keldeo, Azu, Maw, etc.) It can run a variety of sets but the only really effective roles it has is as pivot and the subtoxic set.

So the clauses provide a reference point but I am in no way allowed to utilise them as a reference point?

*Double negative*. Ahem now that my OCD is contented you definitely do not need 3 Aegislash answers per team and even 2 is pushing it not to mention the fact that many of the answers to Aegislash are not even being primarily used to answer Aegi, that just happens to be a secondary characteristic they have (Mandibuzz as a wall, Zard as a breaker/sweeper, Lando as a kill stall button)

 

[TIZNE]

Aldaron's arguments are the backbone of the argument, and I agree with all his premises, yet I reach a different conclusion.

I'll quote bits that in his post were written in boldface.

While our ability to handle threats has been limited and remained static, the number of threats we have to deal with has only increased.

we have continually added to the set of strategies and tools we have to prepare for, but we have kept the ability to respond to those strategies static.

In Gen 6, I'm approaching tiering both from an individual Pokemon and metagame strategies standpoint, and now I'm taking the fact that we still only have 6 Pokemon slots with 1 item, 1 ability, 1 trait, and 4 move slots to deal with an ever-burgeoning number of threats into account.

If we want a healthy metagame, we have to ensure that we don't tolerate threats that have a very low cost to use and also require too much specialization to deal with.

I call the attention into the two aspects that are said to be in play: The great number of Threats and the Answers to those threats. A healthy meta would be one that does not require overspecialization to deal with the threats.

Please note that overcentralization is not what is relevant. If there are lots of Threats but very few good Answers it's just natural that the Answers become metagame defining.

In the case of Aegislash, it can play as a Threat or an Answer. So let's examine it in those roles.

Most pro-ban arguments seem to deal with the Threat side of Aegislash. But the metagame it's full of threats (breakers, sweepers, set up, mixed-...). Being an overpowering threat should not be the core of the banning argument, because there exist lots of other comparatively bulky and powerful threats.

On the other hand, Aegislash defensive stats and typing allow it to come in into a great number of threats, while also being able of threaten them back: this trait is what really makes it stand out. So it's not just another defensive poke like Chansey, since Aegislash is no sitting duck. It's offensive capabilities are what make it a very efficient Answer. King Shield mind games contributes to its role as an Answer.

So, to summarize the premises:
-Aegislash can be tailored to be played as a Threat, BUT it excels at being an Answer, because it's an answer with offensive presence.
-Aegislash, as Threat, does not require narrow counters. Yes, you need to scout.
-Aegislash, as an Answer, can check a lot of offensive glass cannons.
And:
-A healthy meta would be one that does not require overspecialization to deal with the threats.

Then, how exactly is its banning leading to a healthier meta? Seems that banning it would aggravate the existing breach between Threats and Answers.

If the tiering approach this generation is to ensure that threats do not require too much specialization to be dealt with, then banning the one poke that Answers more Threats (yet not hard counter them) seems really counter intuitive.

 

[hotaruuu]

So it looks like I won't be voting in the suspect test, but I'm playing the ladder to enjoy the time without Aegislash around. I'm not particularly fond of facing the pokemon, but I don't see any reason to ban him. He's no more over-centralizing than Talonflame and he's certainly not as powerful as M-Pinsir or M-Mawile. He can be dealt with reasonably well with special attackers or pokemon that don't fear KS like Bisharp. Even playing around KS isn't THAT big of a deal. With prediction, you can set up or switch into something more suited to take him out. Alternatively, there are SE moves that aren't affected by King's Shield at all, such as Earthquake, Sucker Punch, and any special fire move.

 

[Starfall11]

I feel like Aegislash should be banned. People say the 50/50s Aegislash brings to the table are the same thing as regular predictions, but honestly, I disagree.
Aegislash's 50/50s are immensely different because it can scout what the opponent's doing, and cripple them in the process.
In my opinion, Aegislash's ability to do this outright punishes a player for attempting to use a Choice item. Once the Aegislash player knows his opponent is Choiced, one King's Shield is instant, thoughtless momentum for the Aegislash player.

I'm going to use the example of a Scarfed Landorus-T vs. an Aegislash. If Landorus Earthquakes into a King's Shield, the Aegislash simply switches into something that can take the Earthquake next turn. If the Landorus instead predicts a switch and goes for a U-Turn, with the Aegislash performing the exact same move, Landorus is immediately at -2 attack and unable to do anything.
No matter what happens during the turn, King's Shield sets up a lose-lose scenario for the Landorus-T, merely because the Landorus player chose to put a Choice Scarf on it.

I feel that Aegislash is detrimental to the metagame because of this. Its presence alone makes the otherwise fantastic Choice items a hinderance to use.

Now we're just being silly... Your example can be applied to any Choice Pokémon versus any pokemon in the game with protect on it's set. This happens with Sylveon and CB Scizor all the time... You protect to scout and see if they go for U-turn or Bullet Punch and switch appropriately.

King's Shield is by no means a risk-free move. You can switch out and bring in a counter/check to Aegislash if the player risks King's Shield, or set up with appropriate pokemon. Or burn it... the list goes on.

I don't feel Aegislash is bad for the metagame. In fact, I think he helps stabilize it. His resistances and immunities keep many offensive pokemon from running sets which will obliterate all of OU. And his wallbreaking power is great, but others like Keldeo can accomplish the same thing in most cases.

While Aegislash is great, no doubt. I think it's an example of a pokemon that GameFreak has given to us which helps stabilize the metagame. It's great, but far from Overpowered. I'm going with no ban.

Honestly, I'm afraid of a Meta without Aegislash, and I don't like the direction the ladder is going in.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I have swayed my opinion to honestly not caring whether Aegislash goes or not, but if I had to vote I would kick him out. Mainly because the only anti-ban arguments I see are things like this

Seems that banning it would aggravate the existing breach between Threats and Answers.

Which is just a fancy way of saying broken checking broken. The only thing I think of when I hear anti-ban arguments are people being to lazy to work on the tier after aegislash is gone. If we have more pokemon to ban after him, or because he left, so what? The goal is to achieve a perfect meta, although this is generally an unattainable goal, we have to try that is why we are all here. The arguments coming from the pro-ban side are ones that are concerned with how he forces too many 50/50s which is uncompetitive to an extent, or how he is too easily thrown onto a team and that limits team creativity, and these are good reasons for him to go. Even if these dont exactly mean he is broken, which by the typical definitions I would say he is not broken, they are reasons for him being unhealthy for the metagame and that is a good enough reason for me. Not wanting to have to ban mega gardevoir/mega heracross or mega medicham is not a reason for him to stay.

 

[LordGauss]

I would argue that Aegislash fits the bill as a possibly broken support just like mega Gengar for its ability to easily come in and either force a switch or remove a threat or both. A pivot doesn't seem like something that would be broken, but Aegislash has too good typing and stats for the job.

 

[MegaMogwai]

I think people are losing their minds a bit when they say stuff like Mega Heracross or Mega Medicham should probably be suspect tested if Aegislash is banned... mons who people literally IGNORED up until recently should get suspect tested before the likes of Mega Char X and the genies? Let's be rational here.

I've used Mega Heracross for a long time, back when most of the smogon community constantly questioned its viability in OU, it's really funny to see people say stuff like this now. Regardless, I like some posts I have read from Stall players saying that they can adapt to said wall breakers, and that not banning Aegislash due to the fear of these wall breakers rising in USAGE, is WRONG.

 

[TIZNE]

Which is just a fancy way of saying broken checking broken. .

My point was that Aegislash allows offensive teams to check opposing offensive threats without the need of losing offensive presence themselves. Yep, that definitely sounds like a convoluted "broken checking broken", however I totally see this as positive for the metagame, as I explained.


On other note, what troubles me about some of the pro-ban arguments is that they are so lax and broadly stated that they may as well apply to other 10 or 15 pokes. Based solely on the argument of versatility and power, it may as well apply to Greninja, Gengar, Kyurem-B, Dragonite... and half the of offensive pokemon ranked A in viability. Are we banning everything that has a versatile movepool? Everything that has more than one viable set? Are we banning every Ghost type that can counter a Psychic type? Every mixed breaker? Every offensive poke that can also take a hit?
And I have yet to see an argument about those King Shield 50/50's that could not apply to Sucker Punch and set up moves. Are we banning all that on the same ground? All these kind of pro-ban arguments need to be more sharp at singling out Aegislash, IMHO.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I will make a list of how some pokemon deals with Aegislash:

Mega Charizard X: One of the few pokemon who can OHKO Aegislash in Shield Forme. However, Shadow Ball can 2HKOes back.
Landorus: One of the few pokemon who can OHKO Aegislash with Life Orb Earth power. However, Shadow Ball 2Hkoes back.
Mega Mawile: To win, it has to be sure that Aegislash is in Shield Forme, or otherwise it will be very difficult. Sucker Punch only 2HKOes, fire Fang barely 2HKoes, and both Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon 2Hkoes back.
Thundurus: Thunderbolt only causes a 3HKO, while Shadow Ball 2HKOes.

Azumarill This specis is full of contact moves, none of them are super effective. CB Waterfall has a chance of 2HKO but Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon also have a chance of 2HKOes back. Fears King's Shield.
Bisharp One of the few pokemon who can deal realiably with Bisharp thanks to Defiant neutering King Shield drop. However, Sacedd Sword OHKoes with no Attack investment.
Clefable Steel Stab demolishes Clefable. Shadow Ball clearly 3HKO (and can 2HKO with SR if Unaware). What Clefable can do back? Not much, unless got a few Calm mind plus a Fire move.
Excadrill Not so easily. Sacred Sowrd + Shadow Sneak will OHKO. Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak could OHKO Excadrill. True, it has EQ but Excadrill needs LO to be able to OHKO Aegislash.
Garchomp Depending of the set EQ could be able to OHKO, but it's not a guarantee in many of Garchomp sets. With no defensive investment, Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon can 2HKO Garchomp.
Greninja With Dark Pulse it can 2HKo Aegislash However, it fears a possible OHKO from Sacred Sword. Greninja si surpriseingly not 2HKoed by any of his STAb moves if Greninja has the Water/Dark type. Hydro Pumo has a chance of 2HKO.
Mega Gyarados One of the few pokemon who can use Earthquake to clearly 2Hkoes Aegislash. Also, only Sacred Sowrd can 2HKO Mega Gyarados. However, it fears the issue of using King Shield if he chose Waterfall (who does 3HKO it at +0)
Keldeo Hydro Pump is a guarantee 2HKO (if it hits) while Shadow Ball 2Hkoes back. However, Scald doesnt guarantee a 2HKO. Keldoe has a huge problem: it's usually a Choice pokemon and fears getting locked into Secret Sword.
Mega Pinsir Requires Earthquake to 2Hko Aegislash. Return is only able to 4HKO Aegislash. However, Aegislash can use either of his STAb to clearly 2HKO Mega Pinsir.
Mega Scizor Knock Off has a very tiny chance of 2HKO while Aegislash can 2HKo the Mega form with Shaow Ball. However, every attack that Scizor uses is affected by King Shield, with is also triggered if he uses U-turn. And ah, U-turn does ridiculous damage to Aegislash (maximum of )%). Bullet Punch does a maximum of 30% while at +2.
Talonflame One of the few pokemon who can Aegislash with Flare Blitz (with Adamant + CB). However, Shadow Ball does a clear 2HKO. Also, Talonflame absolutely requires Stealth Rock out of the field.
Mega Tyranitar The good thing is that Tyranitar is only 2Hko by Flash Cannon and Sacred Sowrd (if uninvested in attack). Crunch and Earthquake 2HKo Aegislash. However, Crunch triggers King's Shield.
Tyranitar Here is worse because exist chances that EQ is a possible 2HKO. Also Sacred Sword can OHKo many variants of Tyranitar.
Mega Venusaur. 40% is toomuch for Mega Venusaur because mega Venusaur has no ways of delaing with it, even with HP Fire or Earthquake, who can't 2HKO it (and the former can't 3HKO with max SpA) Giga Drain is useless against Aegislash. the only chances to win s through Sleep Powder + Leech Seed.

Mega Charizard Y One of the few pokemon who can OHkoA egislash It doesn't fear Kingp0s HSield siode effects and any Firee moves OHKOes Aegislash in sun. Shadow Ball has a chance of 2HKo, which means it¡'s not a counter.
Dragonite The most common set is the CB set. That set does a 80-90% to aegislash with EQ.
Ferrothorn Shadow Ball can 3HKO Ferrothorn. While Ferrothorn can't do anything back expect sedding it.
Gengar An fair match? Absolutely not. Even though the two are weak to Shadow Ball, Gengar does to Aegislash a maximum of 67,2% with Back Sludge while Aegislash does a maximum of 180% (guaranteeeed OHKO) with the Same Shadow Ball. Also two of the moves of Gengar is completely ineffective against it. Requires an Specs to have a chance of OHKOing Aegislash.
Heatran it does do well, but not so excellently. lava Plume can 2HKO Aeghislash but Sacred Sword can 2Hko Heatran. However, it loses to physical Aegislash if he uses a Sdef set.
Hippowdon Requires a special set if he wants to deal twith Aegislash because otherwise Shadow Ball can 2HKO. Exist an option to guarantee defeating Aegislash: putting an Speed reducing nature and put the IVs to 25.
Landorus-T. However, having a wall trying to underspped to be able to defeat a threat is considered overcentralization.
Mandibuzz One fo the few counters available. Or sort of counter. Foul Play is unaffrfected by King Shield and is able to 2HKO Shield Aegislash. Only Flash Cannon is able to 3HKO iMandibuzz. However, there's the Sd set.
Latias It does horribly. The onyl good thing is thanks to her special bulk, Shadow Ball is not guarantee to OHKo.
Latios Same than Latias, with the bonus of Shadow Ball almsot always OHKoing Latios.
Rotom-W. Aegislash wins because his damage output is rather weak. Hydro Pump only 4hkoes while Shadow Ball clearly 3HKoes.
Terrakion.Only EQ can do something to Aegislas. However, everything else is really bad: all of tthe res tof mvoe sare really inefective (or inmune), Aegislash can use any move to deal with it, Flash Cannoin has a chance of OHKoing Terrakion, and has a tendency of usign Choice Items.

Breloom Aegislash hard counters it. His fraility causes that a neutrla move can OHko Breloom.
Chansey Chansey can't do anything to aegiuslash If it faces a physical Aegislash, bye bye.
Diuggersby One of the few species whio is able to OHko Aegislash with EQ. However, Flash Cannon can 2HKO easily. One of the few good choices against it.
Gliscor Requires a Sdef to be able to defeat it and guarantee to avoid a 2HKO. Earthquake is not guarantee to 2HKoAegislash unless it's invested.
Kyurem-B aegislash is able to counter it rather easily.
Mamoswine It can 2HKo with Earthquake. However, Aegislash can OHko Mamo with Flash Cannon,or with the combo of Shadow Ball + Shaow Sneak.
manaphy Without tail Glow , Surf is not able to 3HKo this thing. Also, Shadow Ball has a chance of 2HKO it.
Scolipede Without EQ, Aegislash counters it, specially if either of those STAB 2HKoes Scolipede.
Skarmory Shadow Ball destroy Skarmory. Brave Bird is very weak.

I think that Aegislash has very few counters, a lot of pokemon who can walls and can defeat it.However, the aspect who mades it truly broken is the effect of King Shield who causes that if you touch Aegislash during Kingps Shield, his attack go down to -2, which is ridiculous when Aegislash has only 6 types who can neutral or SE damage

I think that Aegislash deserves to be banned because his extensive movepool (who unlike other species, has very different checks), his raw stats, his ability to ctake hits at 150 Defenses while always attacking with 150 offenses, hus ability is so uniqaue that even Ditto can't copy it, having a lot of very effective sets, fitting on every team and specially, the ability of King's Hield causing too much 50/50, speciallying when a wrong decision can cost the oponent to have a physical attacker at -2 (half of the original stat), which is huge.

 

[Starfall11]

I will make a list of how some pokemon deals with Aegislash:
List of pokemon dealing with Aegislash.

Nymphia, I think you made a point about why Aegislash should not be banned. You gave examples of several pokemon who can check and counter Aegislash very well. Nearly all of the pokemon you listed are 2HKOed by shadow ball, but are also faster than it (not hard to accomplish). Aegislash is an easy pokemon to counter with the right pokemon, but he'll leave a huge dent. I don't consider it particularly overpowered. I think we're beginning to fear every pokemon that can run more than one set, which makes pokemon... pretty dull.

It should be more than just strategy. Gimmicks exist for a reason, as do unique sets.

 

[mertyville]

I am a bit confused about the way some people on the pro-ban argument are trying to "prove" that Aegislash is broken.

While true, Aegislash is centralising the metagame and making people run centain pokemon/sets that they normally aren't found of, most of them actually proved to be viable to the meta overall like Bisharp, Earthquake DD Dragonite or Mandibuzz.

When I look on the other hand on the previous gens, when Stealth Rocks were centralising, people were forced to run Forretress, Tentacruel and freaking Donphan, all of them relying on passive recovery and wish support.

Or looking back how Dragons and Fighting Types were everywhere in gen 5, you can't tell that checking most of those was easier than checking Aegislash.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Nymphia, I think you made a point about why Aegislash should not be banned. You gave examples of several pokemon who can check and counter Aegislash very well. Nearly all of the pokemon you listed are 2HKOed by shadow ball, but are also faster than it (not hard to accomplish). Aegislash is an easy pokemon to counter with the right pokemon, but he'll leave a huge dent. I don't consider it particularly overpowered. I think we're beginning to fear every pokemon that can run more than one set, which makes pokemon... pretty dull.

It should be more than just strategy. Gimmicks exist for a reason, as do unique sets.

It's true that exist a lot of pokemon who can run a myriad of sets, but there's a difference between Aegislash and many of such pokemon (except maybe Mega Charizard):
I'll give an example: Dragonite.
it's true that Dragonite is able to run a myriad of sets, some of them being offensive (Choice Band, Dragon Dance, Mixnite) while other bsets being defensive (Bulky DD, Annoyer, etc).

However, there's a difference between some of the less used pokemon run those secondary sets.
-In the case of Dragonite, if you notice it, many of those sets has the same group of checks. If you notice it, many of the Fairy types in OU (Sylveon, Togekiss, Azumarill) are able to switch into all the sets, countering some of them and being reliable checks of the remaining ones.

Other example is Tyranitar: it has viable Mega Sets and viable non-Mega Sets, can have DD, SR + 3 attacks, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Mixed Tyranitar, Special Wall, Physical Tank, Assault Vest, Sandstorm Setter.

However, with Tyranitar there's a group of checks who can check the majority of version of Tyranitar that are around in the meta. For example, Conkeldurr is able to almost counter Tyranitar, regardless of the set. Terrakion is a solid check of Tyraniotar, and can OHKo all sets of Tyranitar with Close Combat regardless of the set.

 

[Anty]

Nymphia, I think you made a point about why Aegislash should not be banned. You gave examples of several pokemon who can check and counter Aegislash very well. Nearly all of the pokemon you listed are 2HKOed by shadow ball, but are also faster than it (not hard to accomplish). Aegislash is an easy pokemon to counter with the right pokemon, but he'll leave a huge dent. I don't consider it particularly overpowered. I think we're beginning to fear every pokemon that can run more than one set, which makes pokemon... pretty dull.

It should be more than just strategy. Gimmicks exist for a reason, as do unique sets.

There are quite a few flaws in your post:

Nearly all of the pokemon you listed are 2HKOed by shadow ball, but are also faster than it

Doesnt that imply that it was a pro-ban argument, if its best checks 2hko'd? Even if they are fast, how are you planning them to get in, if they are 2hko'd, they can only switch in once, and with possible hazard damage/chip damage they could be ko'd with shadow ball + shadow sneak.

Aegislash is an easy pokemon to counter with the right pokemon, but he'll leave a huge dent

One of the main proban arguments is that it has NO 100% counters, just a bunch of checks, not many pokes want to take a shadow ball/sacred sword and the ones that can be beaten by sub toxic. Im not saying it has all those sets at once, but it has the possibility to run a set which can beat your 'counter'. If 'he'll leave a huge dent', you dont really counter it too well.

I think we're beginning to fear every pokemon that can run more than one set, which makes pokemon... pretty dull.

Not really, most pokes can run multiple sets, dnite, xzard etc, but aegislash runs several sets very well to a point that it is arguably broken. If you look at lucario, it could run np or sd, but that wasnt broken because of versatility, it was banned due to the opp needing 3 counters to check 1 set. Charizard is very versatile but not op, it can run y-wallbreaker, ddxzard or tankxard.

I also havent yet mentioned kings shield which imo pushes it over the broken line. It can be played around but it is still there - a wrong prediction could be devastating on either side, no poke should be able to force this which makes aegi uncompetitive.

 

[Slimmer]

Did someone seriously brought Head Smash Aegislash as a serious set to be considerated? Isn't it a gimmick set that works only for Mandibuzz and few other stuff?

(I am surprised that SD set is so used when it's a garbage set that can be walled by almost everything and can't sweep itself)

Everyone seems to forget that Aegislash substantially got 3 moves instead of 4 due to the basic King's Shield, so the "HUGE MOVEPOOL" is still reduced to just 3 options. Offensive moves (with a max of 80 BP for STABS which is pretty ridicolous but that's absolutely fine for a 150 Atk/SAtk monster) can be substantially 3 without any way to have something in order to boost or anything else without restricting the movepool to just 2 moves (or just one as SubToxic!). So when the Ghost/Fight combination seems invincible, actually isn't, considering the only one fight move is physical (Sacred Sword) and the most viable ghost physical move is Shadow Sneak that is a 40 BP priority move. Priority on Aegislash isn't the best option at all to sweep, especially if you have something that can take a +2 SSneak (almost everything lol) because almost everything can kill aegislash Blade Form. Mixed Stuff implies you gotta evs both attack stats so that means you can't be powerful enough to wallbreak, especially stall teams (Clefable, Sylveon and every Fight resistant SDef wall plus Chesnaught can tank the SBall+SSword combination.. Heatran and SDef Gastrodon can take SBall + IronHead/Flash Cannon.. if you run all of these 3 atks you haven't sneak so have fun with excadrill and faster stuff).. also offense teams can check well this mon.. Diggersby is an example, Bisharp too. Ok SSword exists but we can't make prediction as an argument cuz overprediction exists lol that's p stupid
I don't want to do theorymon about an Aegisless metagame but from what I have seen as now in suspect ladder there's too much confusion, too much variety (isn't wide variety UNHEALTHY for a competitive game?) and no stability. Metagame right now seems balanced so why we have to ban everything where there's no need to do this? Pls don't try to make this a sort of BW, or worse, a sort of DPP cuz ppl who wants to play those can just play those and not XY OU.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I will make a list of how some pokemon deals with Aegislash:

Mega Charizard X: One of the few pokemon who can OHKO Aegislash in Shield Forme. However, Shadow Ball can 2HKOes back.
Landorus: One of the few pokemon who can OHKO Aegislash with Life Orb Earth power. However, Shadow Ball 2Hkoes back.
Mega Mawile: To win, it has to be sure that Aegislash is in Shield Forme, or otherwise it will be very difficult. Sucker Punch only 2HKOes, fire Fang barely 2HKoes, and both Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon 2Hkoes back.
Thundurus: Thunderbolt only causes a 3HKO, while Shadow Ball 2HKOes.

Azumarill This specis is full of contact moves, none of them are super effective. CB Waterfall has a chance of 2HKO but Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon also have a chance of 2HKOes back. Fears King's Shield.
Bisharp One of the few pokemon who can deal realiably with Bisharp thanks to Defiant neutering King Shield drop. However, Sacedd Sword OHKoes with no Attack investment.
Clefable Steel Stab demolishes Clefable. Shadow Ball clearly 3HKO (and can 2HKO with SR if Unaware). What Clefable can do back? Not much, unless got a few Calm mind plus a Fire move.
Excadrill Not so easily. Sacred Sowrd + Shadow Sneak will OHKO. Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak could OHKO Excadrill. True, it has EQ but Excadrill needs LO to be able to OHKO Aegislash.
Garchomp Depending of the set EQ could be able to OHKO, but it's not a guarantee in many of Garchomp sets. With no defensive investment, Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon can 2HKO Garchomp.
Greninja With Dark Pulse it can 2HKo Aegislash However, it fears a possible OHKO from Sacred Sword. Greninja si surpriseingly not 2HKoed by any of his STAb moves if Greninja has the Water/Dark type. Hydro Pumo has a chance of 2HKO.
Mega Gyarados One of the few pokemon who can use Earthquake to clearly 2Hkoes Aegislash. Also, only Sacred Sowrd can 2HKO Mega Gyarados. However, it fears the issue of using King Shield if he chose Waterfall (who does 3HKO it at +0)
Keldeo Hydro Pump is a guarantee 2HKO (if it hits) while Shadow Ball 2Hkoes back. However, Scald doesnt guarantee a 2HKO. Keldoe has a huge problem: it's usually a Choice pokemon and fears getting locked into Secret Sword.
Mega Pinsir Requires Earthquake to 2Hko Aegislash. Return is only able to 4HKO Aegislash. However, Aegislash can use either of his STAb to clearly 2HKO Mega Pinsir.
Mega Scizor Knock Off has a very tiny chance of 2HKO while Aegislash can 2HKo the Mega form with Shaow Ball. However, every attack that Scizor uses is affected by King Shield, with is also triggered if he uses U-turn. And ah, U-turn does ridiculous damage to Aegislash (maximum of )%). Bullet Punch does a maximum of 30% while at +2.
Talonflame One of the few pokemon who can Aegislash with Flare Blitz (with Adamant + CB). However, Shadow Ball does a clear 2HKO. Also, Talonflame absolutely requires Stealth Rock out of the field.
Mega Tyranitar The good thing is that Tyranitar is only 2Hko by Flash Cannon and Sacred Sowrd (if uninvested in attack). Crunch and Earthquake 2HKo Aegislash. However, Crunch triggers King's Shield.
Tyranitar Here is worse because exist chances that EQ is a possible 2HKO. Also Sacred Sword can OHKo many variants of Tyranitar.
Mega Venusaur. 40% is toomuch for Mega Venusaur because mega Venusaur has no ways of delaing with it, even with HP Fire or Earthquake, who can't 2HKO it (and the former can't 3HKO with max SpA) Giga Drain is useless against Aegislash. the only chances to win s through Sleep Powder + Leech Seed.

Mega Charizard Y One of the few pokemon who can OHkoA egislash It doesn't fear Kingp0s HSield siode effects and any Firee moves OHKOes Aegislash in sun. Shadow Ball has a chance of 2HKo, which means it¡'s not a counter.
Dragonite The most common set is the CB set. That set does a 80-90% to aegislash with EQ.
Ferrothorn Shadow Ball can 3HKO Ferrothorn. While Ferrothorn can't do anything back expect sedding it.
Gengar An fair match? Absolutely not. Even though the two are weak to Shadow Ball, Gengar does to Aegislash a maximum of 67,2% with Back Sludge while Aegislash does a maximum of 180% (guaranteeeed OHKO) with the Same Shadow Ball. Also two of the moves of Gengar is completely ineffective against it. Requires an Specs to have a chance of OHKOing Aegislash.
Heatran it does do well, but not so excellently. lava Plume can 2HKO Aeghislash but Sacred Sword can 2Hko Heatran. However, it loses to physical Aegislash if he uses a Sdef set.
Hippowdon Requires a special set if he wants to deal twith Aegislash because otherwise Shadow Ball can 2HKO. Exist an option to guarantee defeating Aegislash: putting an Speed reducing nature and put the IVs to 25.
Landorus-T. However, having a wall trying to underspped to be able to defeat a threat is considered overcentralization.
Mandibuzz One fo the few counters available. Or sort of counter. Foul Play is unaffrfected by King Shield and is able to 2HKO Shield Aegislash. Only Flash Cannon is able to 3HKO iMandibuzz. However, there's the Sd set.
Latias It does horribly. The onyl good thing is thanks to her special bulk, Shadow Ball is not guarantee to OHKo.
Latios Same than Latias, with the bonus of Shadow Ball almsot always OHKoing Latios.
Rotom-W. Aegislash wins because his damage output is rather weak. Hydro Pump only 4hkoes while Shadow Ball clearly 3HKoes.
Terrakion.Only EQ can do something to Aegislas. However, everything else is really bad: all of tthe res tof mvoe sare really inefective (or inmune), Aegislash can use any move to deal with it, Flash Cannoin has a chance of OHKoing Terrakion, and has a tendency of usign Choice Items.

Breloom Aegislash hard counters it. His fraility causes that a neutrla move can OHko Breloom.
Chansey Chansey can't do anything to aegiuslash If it faces a physical Aegislash, bye bye.
Diuggersby One of the few species whio is able to OHko Aegislash with EQ. However, Flash Cannon can 2HKO easily. One of the few good choices against it.
Gliscor Requires a Sdef to be able to defeat it and guarantee to avoid a 2HKO. Earthquake is not guarantee to 2HKoAegislash unless it's invested.
Kyurem-B aegislash is able to counter it rather easily.
Mamoswine It can 2HKo with Earthquake. However, Aegislash can OHko Mamo with Flash Cannon,or with the combo of Shadow Ball + Shaow Sneak.
manaphy Without tail Glow , Surf is not able to 3HKo this thing. Also, Shadow Ball has a chance of 2HKO it.
Scolipede Without EQ, Aegislash counters it, specially if either of those STAB 2HKoes Scolipede.
Skarmory Shadow Ball destroy Skarmory. Brave Bird is very weak.

I think that Aegislash has very few counters, a lot of pokemon who can walls and can defeat it.However, the aspect who mades it truly broken is the effect of King Shield who causes that if you touch Aegislash during Kingps Shield, his attack go down to -2, which is ridiculous when Aegislash has only 6 types who can neutral or SE damage

I think that Aegislash deserves to be banned because his extensive movepool (who unlike other species, has very different checks), his raw stats, his ability to ctake hits at 150 Defenses while always attacking with 150 offenses, hus ability is so uniqaue that even Ditto can't copy it, having a lot of very effective sets, fitting on every team and specially, the ability of King's Hield causing too much 50/50, speciallying when a wrong decision can cost the oponent to have a physical attacker at -2 (half of the original stat), which is huge.

Let me fix some things:

Mega Charizard X: Still a check.

Mega Mawile: What? Mawile can just spam Sucker Punch over and over, the attack reduction doesn't work if Aegis uses KS because it's not a damage move.

Azumarill: Belly Drum Azumarill can still set up on its face.

Clefable: Calm Mind + Fire move is the standard Clefable set. And if Aegis has any other coverage move that is not Iron Head, it is walled.

Garchomp: Garchomp is still faster and attacks first. It's a check.

Mega Gyarados: Then don't use Waterfall? Why are you posting calcs for moves that will never be used?

Mega Scizor: Scizor can keep spamming Swords Dance + Roost and use Aegis as set up fodder, though. Aegislash has to guess the exact turn Scizor is going to stop healing itself and use Knock Off, otherwise it's attacked in blade forme.

Mega Tyranitar: Don't use Crunch then, use Earthquake. Again, don't post calcs for sub-optimal moves.

Mega Venusaur: Then use Sleep Power or Leech Seed, and then spam Synthesis.

Mega Charizard Y: Still a check.

Ferrothorn: Which is enough if Ferrothorn is using a specially defensive set.

Hippowdon: the specially defensive set is the standard one, though.

Landorus-T: I think this one is missing from your post. Aegislash has the advantage if it's a scarfed set because of KS, otherwise Lando wins.

Rotom-W: Special Defense Rotom can burn and run, though.

Terrakion: Then don't use everything else, use EQ.

Breloom: Not that hard, Breloom can still put it to sleep for free, then switch into something else, or stay in and try to weaken it. And a sleeping Aegislash is in danger of taking massive damage before it wakes up if it's a LO Breloom. It is also forced to guess when it is gonna wake up, otherwise it risks being attacked in blade forme. The match-up is largely dictated by hax, it's not a hard counter.

Chansey: Most Aegislash sets can't do anything to Chansey, either. And she can still heal herself and her teamates.

Diggersby: Still a check. And almost a counter if you manage to switch into a ghost move.

Kyurem-B: No, no, no. It can survive a single hit from any move. It can 2HKO or 3HKO (depending on the sets) with Earth Power. And Sub Kyurem-B can force aegis into mindgames where the dragon has the advantage.

Mamoswine: The offensive set gets a guaranteed OHKO though. Check.

In the end, Aegislash has quite a lot of checks.

There are quite a few flaws in your post:


Doesnt that imply that it was a pro-ban argument, if its best checks 2hko'd? Even if they are fast, how are you planning them to get in, if they are 2hko'd, they can only switch in once, and with possible hazard damage/chip damage they could be ko'd with shadow ball + shadow sneak.


One of the main proban arguments is that it has NO 100% counters, just a bunch of checks, not many pokes want to take a shadow ball/sacred sword and the ones that can be beaten by sub toxic. Im not saying it has all those sets at once, but it has the possibility to run a set which can beat your 'counter'. If 'he'll leave a huge dent', you dont really counter it too well.


Not really, most pokes can run multiple sets, dnite, xzard etc, but aegislash runs several sets very well to a point that it is arguably broken. If you look at lucario, it could run np or sd, but that wasnt broken because of versatility, it was banned due to the opp needing 3 counters to check 1 set. Charizard is very versatile but not op, it can run y-wallbreaker, ddxzard or tankxard.

I also havent yet mentioned kings shield which imo pushes it over the broken line. It can be played around but it is still there - a wrong prediction could be devastating on either side, no poke should be able to force this which makes aegi uncompetitive.

The list of pokemon in this meta who have zero, or near zero, counters is pretty high though. I think it has already been estabilished that this gen is not a gen of counters. It is a gen of checks. Having zero counters would be an issue if this was a sweeper like Mega Luke, but in Aegislash's case, it just makes the game more prediction based.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

This is the sets that I found viable on Aegislash.

Set 1: All-Out Attacker
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Flash Cannon / Pursuit

Set 2: SubToxic
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- King's Shield
- Toxic
- Substitute

Set 3: Swords Dance
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head / Shadow Claw
- Head Smash / Sacred Sword

Set 4: Tank
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- King's Shield
- Iron Head / Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head / Pursuit / Sacred Sword

Set 5: Tank version 2
Aegislash @ Weakness Policy / Leftovers
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Sacred Sword / Shadow Sneak

Set 6: Pivot
Aegislash @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Sacred Sword / Shadow Sneak / Substitute
- King's Shield

Set 7: Specially Defensive
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- King's Shield
- Toxic
- Iron Head
- Shadow Ball / Shadow Sneak / Pursuit

Set 8: Weakness Policy
Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon / Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword / Shadow Sneak

Set 9: Autotomize
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP 252 SpA 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
-Autotomize
-Shadow Ball
-Flash Cannon
-Hidden power Ice

Set 10: Choice Band
Aegislash Choice Band
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP 252 Atk 252 Spe
Admaant Nature
-Shadow Sneak
-Iron Head
-Sacred Sword / Shadow Claw
-Shadow Claw / Head Smash / Pursuit

Set 11: Automotize Set II:
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 Atk 252 SpA 252 Spe
Naive / Hasty Nature
-Autotomize
-Shadow Ball
-Shadow Sneak
-Flash Cannon / Iron Head / Sacred Sword

Set 12: Stance Dance
Aegislash @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP 252 Atk 4 SpD
Brave Nature
-Swords Dance
-Shadow Sneak / Shadow Claw
-Iron Head / Sacred Sword
-King's Shield

 

[Punchshroom]

Did someone seriously brought Head Smash Aegislash as a serious set to be considerated? Isn't it a gimmick set that works only for Mandibuzz and few other stuff?

(I am surprised that SD set is so used when it's a garbage set that can be walled by almost everything and can't sweep itself.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aegislash.3495292/

Just chipping in here again to say that "usage stats" are not a reliable way to discern a Pokemon's usable sets, since the ladder is cluttered with players that stick to the 'trends' and refuse to innovate (or are just bad). Swords Dance may be rarely seen, but that doesn't mean it's bad. I mean look at Substitute's 7% usage and Toxic's 5% usage lol. Swords Dance Aegislash's main advantage is that it can clean up lategame with +2 Shadow Sneaks, something other Aegislash cannot do. Since the set focuses on offense and drops defense, it permits the use of a speedy Aegislash, outspeeding opponents such as Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz, Adamant Bisharp (if you use Jolly), and Mega Mawile, which other sets also cannot do, while shattering bulky opponents such as Amoonguss, AV Conkeldurr, and Mega Venusaur with +2 attacks. I'm not saying Swords Dance is Aegislash's best set, but its ability to bypass traditional counters to the other sets while maintaining dangerous offensive potential still warrants merit. Stance Dance (Swords Dance + King's Shield) is complete and utter garnage though, I'll give you that, and I'm betting that's the reason for its high usage is ladder noobs spamming this very set.

 

[Synchronation]

I agree with most of the above, but I do not think zard-x is the greatest counter-example for the following reasons...

1. Zard-X has one of the strongest fire STAB moves in OU (and fire happens to be super effective against aegi), if there was ever a physical mon to have a positive matchup versus aegi, it's prolly this guy. For the vast majority of the rest of OU, especially on the physical side, being able to OHKO aegi at +0 is merely a pipe dream.

2. Due to zard-x's numerous positive traits as a sweeper, I think it is safe to say that zard-x qualifies as potentially broken. Therefore, it is within the realm of possibility that this is a case of broken-checking-broken, which is undesirable for a tier. If Zard-X were aegis' only viable check or counter, then the anti-ban's side would be looking rather weak.

"Would" being the operative phrase here. I happen to know that bisharp is a pretty good aegis check and mandibuzz is the closest thing to an aegis counter in OU, but 3 mons, one of which being potentially broken, isn't good enough for me. If something like, say, azumaril could force a similar 50/50 I may reconsider, but azu cannot.

calcs:

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 112-133 (34.5 - 41%) -- 64.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

This is what I mean by "lopsided 50-50s". If azumaril guesses "right" and waterfalls when aegi tries to attack, aegi does a fair bit more damage then azu. Obviously if azu guesses wrong and hits a KS or belly drums on a shadow ball, you will prolly wind up with a very dead azumaril, or at least a force out. As far as I am aware, no other mon can 1v1 azu in this matter without a type advantage of some sort. If aegi KSs on a BD then you're in trouble, obviously, but even then double KSs are not unheard of.

For what it's worth, in this particular situation, aegis needs to be running min speed to under speed azu, but it can be applied to many dangerous OU sweepers that lack an SE STAB move (coverage usually doesn't cover it.)

1. I just used Charizard-X as a popular example. Crawdaunt, Darmanitan and SD-Talonflame are Pokemon that could do that too (Darmanitan could use Earthquake when predicting Kings Shield but that doesn't kill it of course). In a regular battle Aegislash is most of the time weakened enough (because it had to tank some Draco Meteors or similar) that even more Pokemon can KO it with their contact-moves. It is very rare that Aegislash is at full health near the end of the battle.

2. I always didn't like this argument because every Pokemon is kept in check because of others. Removing them makes them broken. I would appreciate a term like "even with checks that are viable this Pokemon still does extremely well and is therefore potentially broken". Anyways, I doubt that Charizard-X is the only check to Aegislash. If that would be true, there would be no arguing in this case and Aegi would have to go.

The best counter is definitely Mandibuzz only fearing Head Smash which you only should consider if your opponent somehow managed to build a team with a huge Mandibuzz-weakness. Solid checks are everything that can deal SE damage without fearing Kings Shield (except Tyranitar because of Sacred Sword). Charizard-X, Charizrad-Y, Bisharp, Excadrill and Heatran just to name some of these. I even killed once a Aegislash with Flamethrower-Clefable because I noticed it lacks Flash Cannon. Even some strong special sweepers can destroy Aegislash like Keldeo.

In response to your Azumarill-example: If you don't have Knock Off and try to kill a full-health Aegislash with Waterfall then you got really outplayed here. This is a REALLY BAD match-up for Azumarill expecially because Aegislash is even in shield-form and don't have to use Kings Shield to survive a attack. In this example I wouldn't let Azumarill use BD and attack right away because this is safe and I could survive the Waterfall anyway. Kings Shield would be a bad move from a Aegislash-user.
A better example would be: Aegislash is in blade-form (maybe even weakened) and Azumarill comes in. What do you do? Now I would have a problem if I would attack right away because I can't OHKO Azumarill.
This time I expand these 50/50-examples: Look at the team of your opponent. Does he have another answer to a BD-Azumarill? If not, letting you set-up is even more risky for him. The chances he attacks are very high since loosing Aegislash in a wrong predicting is better than loosing the battle because of +6 Aquajet-spam. Just like you try to predict his switches you can predict his Kings Shield. How are the chances of your opponent that he makes this move? It isn't always 50/50 like it seems. Sometimes he HAS to attack or he would loose.


It seems that there aren't many new arguments on both sides. Reading through many posts I realized the outcome of this suspect will be determined if we want to deal with Aegislash or not.

Edit:

Hide

Let me fix some things:

Mega Charizard X: Still a check.

Mega Mawile: What? Mawile can just spam Sucker Punch over and over, the attack reduction doesn't work if Aegis uses KS because it's not a damage move.

Azumarill: Belly Drum Azumarill can still set up on its face.

Clefable: Calm Mind + Fire move is the standard Clefable set. And if Aegis has any other coverage move that is not Iron Head, it is walled.

Garchomp: Garchomp is still faster and attacks first. It's a check.

Mega Gyarados: Then don't use Waterfall? Why are you posting calcs for moves that will never be used?

Mega Scizor: Scizor can keep spamming Swords Dance + Roost and use Aegis as set up fodder, though. Aegislash has to guess the exact turn Scizor is going to stop healing itself and use Knock Off, otherwise it's attacked in blade forme.

Mega Tyranitar: Don't use Crunch then, use Earthquake. Again, don't post calcs for sub-optimal moves.

Mega Venusaur: Then use Sleep Power or Leech Seed, and then spam Synthesis.

Mega Charizard Y: Still a check.

Ferrothorn: Which is enough if Ferrothorn is using a specially defensive set.

Hippowdon: the specially defensive set is the standard one, though.

Landorus-T: I think this one is missing from your post. Aegislash has the advantage if it's a scarfed set because of KS, otherwise Lando wins.

Rotom-W: Special Defense Rotom can burn and run, though.

Terrakion: Then don't use everything else, use EQ.

Breloom: Not that hard, Breloom can still put it to sleep for free, then switch into something else, or stay in and try to weaken it. And a sleeping Aegislash is in danger of taking massive damage before it wakes up if it's a LO Breloom. It is also forced to guess when it is gonna wake up, otherwise it risks being attacked in blade forme. The match-up is largely dictated by hax, it's not a hard counter.

Chansey: Most Aegislash sets can't do anything to Chansey, either. And she can still heal herself and her teamates.

Diggersby: Still a check. And almost a counter if you manage to switch into a ghost move.

Kyurem-B: No, no, no. It can survive a single hit from any move. It can 2HKO or 3HKO (depending on the sets) with Earth Power. And Sub Kyurem-B can force aegis into mindgames where the dragon has the advantage.

Mamoswine: The offensive set gets a guaranteed OHKO though. Check.

In the end, Aegislash has quite a lot of checks.




The list of pokemon in this meta who have zero, or near zero, counters is pretty high though. I think it has already been estabilished that this gen is not a gen of counters. It is a gen of checks. Having zero counters would be an issue if this was a sweeper like Mega Luke, but in Aegislash's case, it just makes the game more prediction based.

He has a good point and listed more checks to Aegislash.