Aegislash having 4MSS isn't a good anti-ban reason. As scar stated in the Deoxys-D/Deoxys-S suspect test thread, "four moveslot syndrome doesn't make you less effective, it means you're more unpredictable and therefore more threatening. Plus it's not even like it needs to use all its moves, it can pick based on what its team needs."
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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I strongly disagree with this statement :x
During my "journey" to reqs, I managed to play quite a number of matches and faced a ton of unexpected threats as well. Moreover, the suspect ladder has been up for a few days now. This basically means that most of the experienced players have already got reqs and that most of the shitty gimmicks are gone. (I'm quite sure about this, go check the ladder yourself n_n). So, the re-centralization process is at a good stage now, as all the expected new coming threats (e.g. Medicham, Heracross and Gardevoir) have shown up.
I agree with you that centralization is part of the game (and is also the reason why offensive teams don't have to deal with the huge amount of pkmns that every new generation brings). However, I don't think that banning Aegislash will lead to a continuous ban process. The reason being that Aegislash is way too hard to deal with, when using an offensive team. You said that Aegislash can be managed with relative ease, but, as an offensive player, I can't really see how :/
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Apart from this, I like how diverse is the ladder right now. At first I thought that banning Aegislash would get the infamous Flying Spam to emerge, but it is nice to see how that playstyle is not overpowered yet (don't quote me on that though, I may be wrong ahah). Also, Flying spam and Fighting threats should balance each other well n_n
So, I'm definitely going to vote ban
Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
Life Orb max SpA Shadow Ball 2HKOes Gliscor. If you have ever read Alexwolf's analysis you will see there is an All-Out-Attacker which btw outspeeds Gliscor too. Scizor isn't doing anything to Aegislash without Knock Off which is crippled by KS. It was already said that Hippo loses to SubToxic.
It switches in on Aegislash's Swords Dance and Iron Head KOes and obvious Special variants don't give a shit about Foul Play. So no, Amoonguss can't switch in on every set.
I know Aegislash can't run more than one set but all these counters are still situational and dependant on Aegislash set.
Assuming there is an all encompassing moveset that Aegislash can effectively use to kill an entire meta tier, Aegislash can be dealt with accordingly. He's not broken by a long shot. Many of the pokes in OU can deal with him. I agree that he can be a nuisance, but there is so much in this tier that disposes of him. Tyranitar is a huge threat to Aegislash in that any set you chose to use, there is at least one attack that can deal with him. Tyranitar also possesses a lot of bulk to take a hit.
You're only providing situations which are favorable to your argument. This isn't providing a fair argument as to why Aegislash should go.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
You do realize that almost every top-knotch tour player wants aegi gone, right?
I consider Aegislash as the best and most centraliser pokemon in Over Used. It has really good offensive and defensive stats, which let it enter against a lot of pokemon like Latias, Latios, Medicham, Breloom, Skarmory, etc. and attack with its stabs, set-up with Swords dance or make a substitute in order to get advantage. This makes unviable a lot of pokemon in the tier and forces some pokemon to use a specific move for Aegislash, because if Aegi enters against a pokemon that can't do anything against it, it gets a great advantage.
On the other hand there are several viable sets of Aegislash that make it an unpredictable pokemon. The opponent have to guess if it is physical or special in order to wall it, and it can be substitute/toxic defensive set, that can beat things like Mandibuzz or Chesnaught.
Against offensive play style, it can wall several pokemon, such i mentioned before, and, with king's shield, it can scout choiced pokemon and make a lot of 50-50 against physical pokemon, due to -2 attack boost that causes that move.
I think that Aegislash deserves to be banned in this suspect test. If we want some changes of the metagame, banning the most centraliser pokemon is a good opcion.
On the other hand there are several viable sets of Aegislash that make it an unpredictable pokemon. The opponent have to guess if it is physical or special in order to wall it, and it can be substitute/toxic defensive set, that can beat things like Mandibuzz or Chesnaught.
Against offensive play style, it can wall several pokemon, such i mentioned before, and, with king's shield, it can scout choiced pokemon and make a lot of 50-50 against physical pokemon, due to -2 attack boost that causes that move.
I think that Aegislash deserves to be banned in this suspect test. If we want some changes of the metagame, banning the most centraliser pokemon is a good opcion.
Ah--I forgot about the SD set. I almost never see it, so I never prepare for it. And run the calcs on the special set. It still one shots when it's in blade form.
Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
I am talking about counters god damn it now you need two or more Pokemon to beat only Aegislash? I want a single counter that can beat any of Aegislash's sets that's it. If you gess Aegislash's set wrong you will lose a mon because I can't find out any perfect counter to it. A counter should always beat the opposing mon 1v1.
And I didn't decide yet if Aegislash should go or not and I never got 6-0ed by Aegislash because he has a lot of viable checks in OU.
You got a point, Amoonguss wins against any other set. I completely agree that SD is the worst set Aegislash could run but it is still viable and its worth to note how some counters lose to the SD set (not only guss, Umbreon, for instance, which wins even against SubToxic, loses to SD.).
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...You seem to be missing the point entirely and are instead trying to attack others users personally. If 2 Pokemon are required just to specifically counter Aegislash, then that's overcentralization. Stop being immature and make actual points instead of just spouting "OMG eerybody tha wants aegislash ban is bad at the pokemons!!!1!!".
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Pretty sure you are a troll, but on the off chance you are not, how about you look through the 40 pages of posts, instead of acting like you havent even seen one argument for why Aegislash is broken. There have been good and bad arguments on both sides, since you are unable to look backwards far enough here is a good post from a respected user as to why Aegislash is broken.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ost-of-perdition.3511596/page-21#post-5591004
This is a great post, and it provides a lot of insight into the ban side of the argument. I agree that Aegislash is very versatile. I still disagree that he requires over specialization. Many teams often use a pokemon that deal with Aegislash that also deal with other pokes. Has anyone mentioned a mirror match up? I haven't read through 40+ pages and I assume it has come up, I just want to know the results from that. If Aegislash is running rampant, why not specialize an Aegislash for the mirror? I realize this may be difficult based on the versatility of the pokemon, but some sort of middle ground could be found?
Mirror matches shouldn't be considered as an argument in any way because of the nature of them. While I understand if you just want it for statistics or such, then that's okay, but really there isn't much to say other than "two exact same pokemon with possibly different sets and builds going against eachother". It'd probably get down to "who's slower", as it'd be Shadow Ball vs Shadow Ball, with the first hitting Shield and possibly activating Weakness Policy, while the second hits Blade forme and possibly doing x2 damage thanks to Weakness Policy.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 224-266 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 554-654 (170.9 - 201.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 224-266 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 554-654 (170.9 - 201.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I wanted to know the viability of a mirror match up. I feel like there shouldn't be a stone left unturned in a suspect thread.
I'm starting to be swayed by the versatility that Aegislash has that he should actually be banned. I was considering pyroar as a viable check if sacred sword isn't on the set. There is just no way to know. Exploud may be viable against sub toxic, but the damage isn't significant enough to be worth the trouble, plus, you know, sacred sword.
But what can deal with Aegislash? Bisharp, who can only handle the 1/3rd of Aegislash who don't run Sacred Sword? Garchomp and Excadrill, who need an Adamant nature and a Life Orb to pull off a 1HKO (assuming Aegislash doesn't run Air Balloon)? Taunt users, who will get rewarded with a Shadow Ball to the face? Amoongus, who can't do anything to Aegislash besides put it to sleep?
It doesn't seem reasonable to make every single player run Mandibuzz, Landorus or Mega Charizard Y. Or the dreaded Pyroar.
I see the point you're trying to make, and it's not at all invalid. What I'm trying to say is, how many people already run those pokes to deal with other viable threats in the OU? How many people run Zard-Y, excadrill, bisharp, amoongus, landorus, and other pokes mentioned in previous comments? It is highly likely that many players use at least one or two of these pokemon on a team from preference or because of their usefulness. The meta game isn't based solely around 1v1 match up, but rather around the synergy a team as a whole creates.
I understand that some individuals demand that there be a perfect counter to something or else it should be banned, but with as many diverse options as we have, there are ways to easily circumvent a threat while losing an asset and still winning the match. A 6-0 win isn't a must.
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Right now I don't feel like going into detail about this and I may never.
Also note that i do a run an Aegi (SD, Iron Head, Sacred Sword, Shadow Sneak)
But personally I don't feel as if Aegi should be banned. While there are no hard counters to it, there don't have to be. If you can check it well enough it should be fine. Char-Y, Excadrill, Lando, Char-X if it has EQ (dont most?), Mandibuzz, etc check it well enough. Burning Aegi (I know, easier said than done) pretty much makes physical ones useless (again, I know there are special sets) With smart play (if Aegi isnt already boosted when Char-Y switches in) I dont see how an Aegi can beat a Char-Y 1v1. It just takes a bit of creativity.
It does seem like a lot of people are for this ban simply because you have to carry a check. I hate having to run Excadrill to remove rocks for Char-Y, or not run Dragonite because I'd be too rocks weak, etc. but I simply make choices that make my team as viable as possible. I do happen to carry three natural checks, as well as Aegislash itself, so I never really have had problems with Aegislash. However most teams have a problem with at least one specific poke, and for most people that poke happens to be Aegi.
Not to mention Aegislash actually requires a bit of prediction on the players part, especially if they run a KS variant. A mispredict costs Aegi in Blade form, as well as well placed Taunt or other things.
In my opinion the poke, while difficult to counter 1v1, can be feasibly countered with the remaining members of the team.
Also note that i do a run an Aegi (SD, Iron Head, Sacred Sword, Shadow Sneak)
But personally I don't feel as if Aegi should be banned. While there are no hard counters to it, there don't have to be. If you can check it well enough it should be fine. Char-Y, Excadrill, Lando, Char-X if it has EQ (dont most?), Mandibuzz, etc check it well enough. Burning Aegi (I know, easier said than done) pretty much makes physical ones useless (again, I know there are special sets) With smart play (if Aegi isnt already boosted when Char-Y switches in) I dont see how an Aegi can beat a Char-Y 1v1. It just takes a bit of creativity.
It does seem like a lot of people are for this ban simply because you have to carry a check. I hate having to run Excadrill to remove rocks for Char-Y, or not run Dragonite because I'd be too rocks weak, etc. but I simply make choices that make my team as viable as possible. I do happen to carry three natural checks, as well as Aegislash itself, so I never really have had problems with Aegislash. However most teams have a problem with at least one specific poke, and for most people that poke happens to be Aegi.
Not to mention Aegislash actually requires a bit of prediction on the players part, especially if they run a KS variant. A mispredict costs Aegi in Blade form, as well as well placed Taunt or other things.
In my opinion the poke, while difficult to counter 1v1, can be feasibly countered with the remaining members of the team.
Stealth rocks makes it so that people have to run a spinner or a defogger to run certain pokes and rocks isn't banned. Not saying that it should be banned, but the point is that you HAVE to run a check or the pokemon that's weak to it is getting destroyed.
And the pokemon that check Aegislash check so many other things, so it's not entirely a slot dedicated to Aegislash. Rapid spin and defog are used solely for the purpose of dealing with field hazards. Zard-y deals with a wide range of pokes in the tier, therefor making it a useful part of the team. Excadrill also handles many different threats. Why is everyone complaining about being forced to carry a check when we already are forced to deal with entry hazards? What if I already run a Zard-y or tyranitar or azumaril or heatran or bisharp that wall other parts of the meta game and so happen to check Aegislash? It's a lot more diverse than being forced to bring a spinner/defogger or risk getting raped by hazards.
I'm relatively new to Showdown, though I have been playing by Smogon rules since the end of Gen 4. I've been around from the very beginning of Pokemon games. While I am in no way an authority on Pokemon, or anything more than a slightly competitive casual player, I felt like putting in my two cents in on this thread about Aegislash.
I hate using Aegislash, because I'm the type who likes to try to win outside of the typical norm. Unconventionality is just how I am, and I understand what that means going into OU where there are a very specific number of pokemon considered viable. I know Aegislash is a very dangerous foe to take on, no matter the set its running. Novices who use the pokemon can still make it effective just because of Kings Shield alone. In a metagame thats full of predictions and counters, which I personally feel is about skill, Kings Shield always felt more gimmicky in the sense that it requires little to no skill. Yes, like any pokemon, its always going to be much more dangerous in the hands of someone with more skill and experience, but the fact that having no skill to be able to use Aegi is just frustrating. Many arguments above mine point to Versatility, 50/50's, and that it has very unreliable checks and counters to it. Neither of these things alone would normally mean much, but toss all of that in with Kings Shield and Stance Change, and its nasty to deal with. Since I have am relatively new to playing on Showdown, I haven't often seen it in the hands of a competent player. I can usually sack off something and go into Clefable, set up a Calm Mind and blast it with Flamethrower, dangerous I know, but it can work.
Unfortunately though, Aegi can destroy my whole team with relative ease, even in the hands of an incompetent player. A pokemon like that takes little to no skill to use, when any kid can google how to make a clean set and play it on Showdown or x/y, and this is mainly due to it not having many legitimate counters. I always thought pokemon that took no skill belonged in Ubers, and I still feel that way. With great typing, perfect sets to run, Kings Shield, who wouldn't want to spam one in there party when it can bring so many wins with relative ease? If I didn't have the weird pride that I do, Im sure I would be running one as well.
Versatility in Pokemon is great, but not when its just one team limiting the top of the game where running it is the only way to be at the top. I don't want a metagame where you build your team with one super pokemon, and the rest of your pokemon are used to counter the same pokemon on the other team. What is the fun in that?
I vote ban on this obnoxious, pokemon that limits OU due to its use.
As for some of the arguments above that I have seen, I have a few comments.
The one that annoys me most is the "If we ban Aegislash, another pokemon will just takes its place."
Sure, you could argue that slippery-slope style argument, but Aegislash has one thing that it uses like no other pokemon, Kings Shield. While another may rise to the top, KS wont be on it. Lets be real, Smeargle can learn it, but without the stats of Aegi and Stance Change, it will never be the same. And like another argument defending this pokemon from being banned says "We shouldn't ban this pokemon just because it doesn't have any reliable checks or counters", then the opposite could be argued. Any pokemon that is currently in uber, like Blaziken who doesn't seem to have many reliable checks and counters, could be brought back to OU by that logic.
If I see any more annoying arguments, Ill add em in somewhere.
~Titania
I hate using Aegislash, because I'm the type who likes to try to win outside of the typical norm. Unconventionality is just how I am, and I understand what that means going into OU where there are a very specific number of pokemon considered viable. I know Aegislash is a very dangerous foe to take on, no matter the set its running. Novices who use the pokemon can still make it effective just because of Kings Shield alone. In a metagame thats full of predictions and counters, which I personally feel is about skill, Kings Shield always felt more gimmicky in the sense that it requires little to no skill. Yes, like any pokemon, its always going to be much more dangerous in the hands of someone with more skill and experience, but the fact that having no skill to be able to use Aegi is just frustrating. Many arguments above mine point to Versatility, 50/50's, and that it has very unreliable checks and counters to it. Neither of these things alone would normally mean much, but toss all of that in with Kings Shield and Stance Change, and its nasty to deal with. Since I have am relatively new to playing on Showdown, I haven't often seen it in the hands of a competent player. I can usually sack off something and go into Clefable, set up a Calm Mind and blast it with Flamethrower, dangerous I know, but it can work.
Unfortunately though, Aegi can destroy my whole team with relative ease, even in the hands of an incompetent player. A pokemon like that takes little to no skill to use, when any kid can google how to make a clean set and play it on Showdown or x/y, and this is mainly due to it not having many legitimate counters. I always thought pokemon that took no skill belonged in Ubers, and I still feel that way. With great typing, perfect sets to run, Kings Shield, who wouldn't want to spam one in there party when it can bring so many wins with relative ease? If I didn't have the weird pride that I do, Im sure I would be running one as well.
Versatility in Pokemon is great, but not when its just one team limiting the top of the game where running it is the only way to be at the top. I don't want a metagame where you build your team with one super pokemon, and the rest of your pokemon are used to counter the same pokemon on the other team. What is the fun in that?
I vote ban on this obnoxious, pokemon that limits OU due to its use.
As for some of the arguments above that I have seen, I have a few comments.
The one that annoys me most is the "If we ban Aegislash, another pokemon will just takes its place."
Sure, you could argue that slippery-slope style argument, but Aegislash has one thing that it uses like no other pokemon, Kings Shield. While another may rise to the top, KS wont be on it. Lets be real, Smeargle can learn it, but without the stats of Aegi and Stance Change, it will never be the same. And like another argument defending this pokemon from being banned says "We shouldn't ban this pokemon just because it doesn't have any reliable checks or counters", then the opposite could be argued. Any pokemon that is currently in uber, like Blaziken who doesn't seem to have many reliable checks and counters, could be brought back to OU by that logic.
If I see any more annoying arguments, Ill add em in somewhere.
~Titania
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To add to this, we're not talking about the same situation as with MegaKhan where you basically had to donate a pokemon to the opponent first in order to switch in a check because it was both insanely strong, fast, could boost, and had a strong priority move (plus that ability which amounted to a free choice band) and then the opponent would simply switch MegaKhan out. Aegis can't really OHKO stuff that isn't weak to its moves (at least, without a WP boost), the name of its game is 2HKOs. So given its low speed lots of stuff can come in, take a SB, and then cripple it next turn before going down. At that point almost anything can come in and finish the job. So unlike MegaKanga, we're talking about situations where you can severely cripple Aegis, although it may cost you a pokemon (or it may not with some prediction), and then you can clean up later, so what you're really doing is trading 1.25 of your pokemon (because Aegis can sneak before dying), for 1 of your opponent's pokemon. Not really that bad of a deal.
As for checks to Aegislash, all of the pokemon LT. SURGE111 mentioned actually are pretty good checks. YZard would be a counter were it not for Stealth Rocks, as it tanks a shadow ball like a champ (it's not even always a 2HKO if Aegis doesn't run Life Orb), and then threatens to OHKO through Shield Forme or can roost off damage. Excadrill may not really be that great of a check, as it goes down to shadow ball + shadow sneak, but if it comes in on Iron Head or Shadow Sneak it can severely cripple with earthquake. LO Bisharp comes in on anything except Sacred Sword and OHKOs 68.8% of the time with Knock Off. Amoonguss is actually a soft counter because it tanks anything except Iron Head from max attack Aegis and OHKOs back with Foul Play (he outslows Aegis), and recovers with Regenerator and/or Synthesis (or sleeps something). Landorus tanks a shadow ball+shadow sneak and OHKOs with EP. Another he didn't mention is specially defensive Hippo. Yes, Air Balloon sucks for it, but it can handle Aegis holding any other item, and it is good for much more than just Aegis. And of course there is Garchomp, who is in a similar boat to Excadrill except he doesn't go down to SB+SS. With LO he can also OHKO through shield forme without Adamant, though it's only 50% of the time.
These pokemon aren't exactly Numel, they're top threats in the OU meta. (well, maybe not really Amoonguss, but he's not bad either.) People will be bringing them whether Aegis is in the meta or not. With the power creep that's been happening every generation, you just can't really demand a perfect counter anymore to every possible set of a strong pokemon, or one that works without requiring prediction. Aegislash is powerful, and a top tier threat, but its checks (and soft counters) seem like they're being underestimated or thrown aside simply because they're not cold stops like, say, Skarmory is to Cokeldurr.
We're not talking about situations where you have to run "Sableye or Rocky Helmet Ferro." There are a number of really viable options here that can fit on a multitude of teams.
No, that's not how it works. You can't compare a set of moves that multiple Pokemon have access to to a Pokemon with its own stats, typing, and moves. They aren't similar in any way bar being used in Pokemon the game. Please don't try and justify it by saying it's an actual argument when it doesn't give any insight into how Aegislash affects the metagame.
You're just arguing my point with circular logic. You are not providing any sort of insight as to why my example is wrong. Your whole point is based around you saying they are apples and oranges and therefor cannot be compared.
My point, if you bother reading, was that in order to play in the meta, you need to bring a pokemon to deal with hazards. These pokemon also require one of their move slots used in order to deal with hazards I.E. Rapid spin or defog.
It's just part of the meta that is generally accepted.
My list of checks to Aegislash are commonly used pokemon in the tier and also check or counter other pokes in the meta. They are not dedicated solely for Aegislash removal.
Aegislash without King's Shield would never realistically be seen in OU, so if that's the goal, then we should just be honest with ourselves and ban the whole pokemon. It would be a mistargeted ban anyway, since the problem is not King's Shield, it's only Aegislash and its use of it. (nobody would argue, for example, that Smeargle somehow becomes broken by running the move.)
And besides, Aegis's supposed 50/50s are not actually a problem.
Alright, then let me put it this way.
Hazards such as Stealth Rock are parts of the game that can be put on literally any team with relative ease but A. do minimal damage to either side of the field over an amount of time and B. can be removed with one move that can be given to at least half of the OU meta.
Aegislash A. can take out multiple enemies with ease without giving up anything, and B. can't be removed with one move bar 2 uncommon set moves on Excadrill and Garchomp, Bisharp, and Mandibuzz (50% of the time).
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