np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[MikeDawg]

Ummmm... What?!

If you're having issues with Venomoth in OU, then something is definitely wrong with your team. All joking aside though. Aegislash does not check AV Conkeldurr, or Rotom-W (Aegislash doesn't like status.) It cannot check Mandibuzz either. Mandibuzz is KOed by luring it in with an unconventional Aegislash, it doesn't check it.

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 172-204 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 87-103 (26.8 - 31.7%) -- 33.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 42-49 (9.9 - 11.5%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 218-257 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 361-426 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Conk: Gl with that King's Shield
Rotom-W: Aegislash doesn't give af bout your burn. Rotom doesn't like taking damage.
Mandibuzz: Sub toxic/flash cannon/head smash much?

Ie, Aegislash beats all of these somewhat easily. Even if they did beat aegislash, 3 pokes out of a few dozen does nothing to invalidate my argument

 

[Karxrida]

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 172-204 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 87-103 (26.8 - 31.7%) -- 33.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 42-49 (9.9 - 11.5%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 218-257 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 361-426 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Conk: Gl with that King's Shield
Rotom-W: Aegislash doesn't give af bout your burn. Rotom doesn't like taking damage.
Mandibuzz: Sub toxic/flash cannon/head smash much?

Drain Punch the turn they King's Shield and Aegislash (or whatever you want to switch in) is boned.
Aegislash does care about burns because it negates its only form of recovery and makes its coverage moves weaker.
SubToxic can't really check because they'll know something's up and Taunt you. Flash Cannon has to deal with Roost, and Head Smash is still stupid.

 

[Shirou Saberfox]

The point is that their are numerous checks that synergize very well with each other and do something significant other than dealing with Aegislash. Because its checks are not niche and are all very viable, it is not overcentralizing. You can fill half your fucking team with Aegislash checks and still do well against teams that don't have it.

And they aren't incredibly reliable against Aegislash, which has been a pretty consistent argument since about 30 or 40 pages ago.

And if you are forced to put more than one Aegislash check on your team to have an effective team in OU, while that very same pokemon forces out what used to be pretty nasty threats without its existence, then I don't see how it can't be considered overcenteralizing OU. And clearly I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

 

[RevengeOfHiddenPower]

Not to sound rude, but can we keep the ad hominem to a minimum here?

Also keep in mind Aegi can't run two sets at the same time. Either you run a move or you don't. Mandibuzz forces 80% of Aegislash to switch out, so Mandibuzz is a check by any reasonable definition.

| King's Shield 87.632%                  |
| Shadow Ball 77.648%                    |
| Shadow Sneak 74.147%                   |
| Sacred Sword 63.303%                   |
| Swords Dance 20.290%                   |
| Flash Cannon 18.830%                   |
| Substitute 18.553%                     |
| Toxic 14.418%                          |
| Iron Head 13.937%                      |
| Other 11.242%                          |

 

[InfinityX000]

And they aren't incredibly reliable against Aegislash, which has been a pretty consistent argument since about 30 or 40 pages ago.

And if you are forced to put more than one Aegislash check on your team to have an effective team in OU, while that very same pokemon forces out what used to be pretty nasty threats without its existence, then I don't see how it can't be considered overcenteralizing OU. And clearly I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

OK, I think that you're missing his point, which was that the core would be good eve without Aegis being there, it just happens to check aegis.

IxfinityX000 I won’t tackle your post too much cause other people already did, the main thing that throws me off is: How does dropping good Pokémon for okay ones add versatility? And isn’t that just another way Aegislash is negatively polarizing the tier?


Again this is the mind set leaving me unconvinced. What you’re arguing is that the new meta, that no one can perfectly predict, will be worse than the existing one not that the existing one is good. It’s weighing a known against an unknown. I’m not goanna take it upon myself to call everyone out for that or something it’s just that you literally quoted my comment on this and then came back with the exact kind of reply that’s in my quote.

Of course it seems not everyone wants to accept the same mindset that we shouldn't compare a known to something more unknown. And people can make educated guesses at what will happen to the tier. I've actually already touched on the majority of what you’re saying a little more specifically if you just scroll up this page to my earlier post. (The first half is me rambling about sucker punch but the second half is actually relevant) One of the many links you're referring to is in that post I made. I've basically asked what groundbreaking huge amounts of variety are gonna suddenly wreck OU if Aegislash is gone? The majority of things Aegislash keeps is in low play is stuff like Starmie or Gengar that has been a part of a well balanced OU for way too long to argue otherwise. The only new things are these few (3 or so) Aegislash checked Megas that 1. Have to compete with other megas for usage still, and 2. Don’t really strike me as being held back ONLY by Aegislash anyway. And don’t forget that (as many people are saying) a number of pokemon are more OU viable simply because of their ability to check Aegislash, it’s removal drops their viability and helps keep the number of OU viable Pokémon more or less the same.

This is the heart of the too much variety concern as far as I see it. I don’t think there is a big risk of this yet though. Aegislash is the most ridiculous central force right now, but there are plenty of fairly central forces besides it (S and A+ ranked guys) and they can maintain the stability and “controlled variety” of the tier after Aegi’s gone. I don't think we can claim that OU with out Aegislash doesn't have 4 or 5 specific Pokemon that will be the center of the tier. It'll just be a healthier tier with 4 or 5 central forces rather than 1 or 2.

Listen. I said that it drops some good pokes a little and raises okay ones. This makes them more usable. This adds a little variety, but not BW2 variety. If anything, Aegis helps prevent that much variety in very strong pokes, while maintaining variety enough not to make the metagame linear. I think I phrased my post badly, because many people don't seem to understand my point. My point is that, although Aegis DOES do some unhealthy things, it keeps the game balanced enough. If anything, without Aegis we would have BW2-ish variety.
EDIT: Talking more directly, I feel that the metagame without Aegislash has a little too much variety. With the loss of a major threat, there are less restrictions on teambuilding. Not to say that Aegis severely restricts it; but you need an Aegis check that synergizes with your team, and it is less viable in the current meta to just use 6 powerful pokes.

 

[MikeDawg]

lol not even going to bother


The point is that Aegislash is literally the easiest mon to fit on a team in the entirety of ou. Whether or not you think that such a quality adds to it's potential broken-ness is what matters.

 

[Toljik]

Mawile-Sucker punch
Thunderus-Taunt subtoxic and paralysis
Azumaril-Only if it's not a +6
Clefable-Cosmic power+softboil/wish stall.
Pinsir-EQ
Keldeo-Stalemate.. aegislash has nothing SE and keldeo's occasional HP ghost will even eachother out.
Talonflame-Maybe but flare blitz..
Latias-Aegislash does counter.
Latios-Aegislash does counter should latios not have HP fire and isn't at half health to OHKO with shadow sneak/shadow ball without life orb.
Terrakion-EQ..
Rotom-Trick/burn
Breloom-Spore
Chansey/Blissey-Any physical attacker ruins these..
Mandibuzz-Taunt sub toxic, roost stall, aegislash is crippled the rest of the game should it run head smash.
Hippowdon-EQ/whirlwind
Skarmory-sturdy+whirlwind to ruin any SD sets.
Gardevoir-calmmind shadow ball
Medicham-Fake out around king's shield and fire punch.
Heracross-EQ..
Kabutops-Honestly, who is threathened by this thing? Can't hurt aegislash and it can't hurt alot of other spin blockers.. can't touch gengar.
Quaqsire-EQ+Recover+don't care for anything bar sub-toxic.
Slowbro-Walled by slash
Conk- Like above said.
Gothitelle-ok yes aegislash answers.
Kingdra-Stalemate, both hit each other neutrally.
Manectric-Intimidate+overheat/flamethrower
Lucario-Anything bar SD with EQ.
Sylveon-Walled by any steel type not just named aegislash..
Venomoth-Tinted lens+sleep powder+baton pass...

I'm not doing anymore.. but all those pokemon you listed for aegislash to handle can either be a stalemate and handle slash too or have methods of crippling/ending him.

Almost everything you listed either loses to the SubToxic, loses to the crumbler set, or both.

What checks Aegislash and what doesn't has been discussed dozens of times, there's no need to make more giant lists.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

Wow, this thread was actually going good for 2 pages and it went toxic real fast again...anyway...

Listen. I said that it drops some good pokes a little and raises okay ones. This makes them more usable. This adds a little variety, but not BW2 variety. If anything, Aegis helps prevent that much variety in very strong pokes, while maintaining variety enough not to make the metagame linear. I think I phrased my post badly, because many people don't seem to understand my point. My point is that, although Aegis DOES do some unhealthy things, it keeps the game balanced enough. If anything, without Aegis we would have BW2-ish variety.

I'm sorry for phrasing it badly, in my defense your first post said versatility and now you're saying variety. trading good pokemon for ok pokemon weakens your versatility and maintains the same level of variety so i don't think what I've said is wrong. This is the first post I saw claiming Aegilsash adds variety though, i guess in a sense that's true but it's unhealthy variety. variety driven by using obscure mons for checking one thing.
If we're gonna be stuck on comparing a known to an unknown then be thorough about it. There's no perma weather anymore so how will Aegislash's removal suddenly revert us to 5th gen OU? What you saying is sort of like... "fear based reasoning" or something. You can't say exactly what the tier will be like but if you're gonna make such a huge statement back it up. I already talked about how I felt the new variety can't pose much of an issue, and I won't make all those points again but I welcome you to go back and read them and maybe quote me and reply to something. You haven't shown me how any of my reasoning is wrong and you haven't provided any reasons for why Aegislsahs is the one thing, the god like plug, that keeps XY OU from suddenly having as much variety as the world of perma weather.

The lists anti-ban peopl provide include 3 good megas and a bunch of other things that have been in balanced OU before. that's what Aegi holds back. And megas compete with each other. So where's this OU breaking unchecakable amount of variety?

 

[Srn]

Mawile-Sucker punch
Thunderus-Taunt subtoxic and paralysis
Azumaril-Only if it's not a +6
Clefable-Cosmic power+softboil/wish stall.
Pinsir-EQ
Keldeo-Stalemate.. aegislash has nothing SE and keldeo's occasional HP ghost will even eachother out.
Talonflame-Maybe but flare blitz..
Latias-Aegislash does counter.
Latios-Aegislash does counter should latios not have HP fire and isn't at half health to OHKO with shadow sneak/shadow ball without life orb.
Terrakion-EQ..
Rotom-Trick/burn
Breloom-Spore
Chansey/Blissey-Any physical attacker ruins these..
Mandibuzz-Taunt sub toxic, roost stall, aegislash is crippled the rest of the game should it run head smash.
Hippowdon-EQ/whirlwind
Skarmory-sturdy+whirlwind to ruin any SD sets.
Gardevoir-calmmind shadow ball
Medicham-Fake out around king's shield and fire punch.
Heracross-EQ..
Kabutops-Honestly, who is threathened by this thing? Can't hurt aegislash and it can't hurt alot of other spin blockers.. can't touch gengar.
Quaqsire-EQ+Recover+don't care for anything bar sub-toxic.
Slowbro-Walled by slash
Conk- Like above said.
Gothitelle-ok yes aegislash answers.
Kingdra-Stalemate, both hit each other neutrally.
Manectric-Intimidate+overheat/flamethrower
Lucario-Anything bar SD with EQ.
Sylveon-Walled by any steel type not just named aegislash..
Venomoth-Tinted lens+sleep powder+baton pass...

I'm not doing anymore.. but all those pokemon you listed for aegislash to handle can either be a stalemate and handle slash too or have methods of crippling/ending him.

Like Mikedawg said, not really gonna bother correcting this incredibly flawed and biased list (he said CHECK a large majority of the meta, not COUNTER), but anything involving conk and mega medi with aegislash is basically just 50/50s, whether to attack when they predict your KS and drain punch and when to KS when they predict you to attack and knock off/fire punch.
Gardevoir also never carries shadow ball lol, and are you seriously trying to argue that skarmory is an answer to aegislash?
But no the thing that appalls me the most

Kabutops-Honestly, who is threathened by this thing? Can't hurt aegislash and it can't hurt alot of other spin blockers.. can't touch gengar.

\(-_________________________________________________________-)/

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

IxfinityX000 I won’t tackle your post too much cause other people already did, the main thing that throws me off is: How does dropping good Pokémon for okay ones add versatility? And isn’t that just another way Aegislash is negatively polarizing the tier?


Again this is the mind set leaving me unconvinced. What you’re arguing is that the new meta, that no one can perfectly predict, will be worse than the existing one not that the existing one is good. It’s weighing a known against an unknown. I’m not goanna take it upon myself to call everyone out for that or something it’s just that you literally quoted my comment on this and then came back with the exact kind of reply that’s in my quote.

Of course it seems not everyone wants to accept the same mindset that we shouldn't compare a known to something more unknown. And people can make educated guesses at what will happen to the tier. I've actually already touched on the majority of what you’re saying a little more specifically if you just scroll up this page to my earlier post. (The first half is me rambling about sucker punch but the second half is actually relevant) One of the many links you're referring to is in that post I made. I've basically asked what groundbreaking huge amounts of variety are gonna suddenly wreck OU if Aegislash is gone? The majority of things Aegislash keeps is in low play is stuff like Starmie or Gengar that has been a part of a well balanced OU for way too long to argue otherwise. The only new things are these few (3 or so) Aegislash checked Megas that 1. Have to compete with other megas for usage still, and 2. Don’t really strike me as being held back ONLY by Aegislash anyway. And don’t forget that (as many people are saying) a number of pokemon are more OU viable simply because of their ability to check Aegislash, it’s removal drops their viability and helps keep the number of OU viable Pokémon more or less the same.

This is the heart of the too much variety concern as far as I see it. I don’t think there is a big risk of this yet though. Aegislash is the most ridiculous central force right now, but there are plenty of fairly central forces besides it (S and A+ ranked guys) and they can maintain the stability and “controlled variety” of the tier after Aegi’s gone. I don't think we can claim that OU without Aegislash doesn't have 4 or 5 specific Pokemon that will be the center of the tier. It'll just be a healthier tier with 4 or 5 central forces rather than 1 or 2.

On most points I either agree, or admit I might be wrong, but the last part about there only being 1 or 2 centralizing forces kind of sells every other OU threat short. Venusaur, Talonflame, Heatran, Ferrothorn, and a lot of others have centralizing properties that just aren't quite as noticeable as Aegislash.

My biggest mistake was suggesting banning Aegislash would lead to BW level diversity and create a match-up based game. We're not in danger of that at all. I'm just saying that "diversity" is a concept that is best in moderation, and it's better to have a little too little than a little too much.

 

[Shirou Saberfox]

On most points I either agree, or admit I might be wrong, but the last part about there only being 1 or 2 centralizing forces kind of sells every other OU threat short. Venusaur, Talonflame, Heatran, Ferrothorn, and a lot of others have centralizing properties that just aren't quite as noticeable as Aegislash.

My biggest mistake was suggesting banning Aegislash would lead to BW level diversity and create a match-up based game. We're not in danger of that at all. I'm just saying that "diversity" is a concept that is best in moderation, and it's better to have a little too little than a little too much.

If I may...

I feel like a little more diversity is a little better than too little. The reason why is because, and again this is MY OPINION (for those of you who might take what I say as some sort of fact), is that it requires more people to try to build better teams. That takes skill. That takes competitive spirit. That is what OU is about. So why then, keep Aegislash, when it literally counteracts that just by slapping it on a team and going "welp, that was easy".?

Edit: p.s.- I was replying to just the last paragraph.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Clefable-Cosmic power+softboil/wish stall.
Gardevoir-calmmind shadow ball

Sets no one runs.

Manectric-Intimidate+overheat/flamethrower

Survives EZ.

Talonflame-Maybe but flare blitz..
Conk- Like above said.
Medicham-Fake out around king's shield and fire punch.

Relies on prediction, and if you predict wrong Aegislash gets a free turn which means something dies. Banded TFlame is screwed, and Aegislash can survive one Fire Punch from cham anyway.

Terrakion-EQ..
Pinsir-EQ
Hippowdon-EQ/whirlwind
Heracross-EQ..
Quaqsire-EQ+Recover+don't care for anything bar sub-toxic.
Lucario-Anything bar SD with EQ.

Air Balloon

Breloom-Spore
Venomoth-Tinted lens+sleep powder+baton pass...

Sleep clause

Skarmory-sturdy+whirlwind to ruin any SD sets.

Loses to every set with Shadowball.

Kabutops-Honestly, who is threathened by this thing? Can't hurt aegislash and it can't hurt alot of other spin blockers.. can't touch gengar.

>who is threatened by a Sword Dance sweeper that spams draw-back free attacks that are as powerful as LO Garchomp's Outrage at 518 speed

Kabu isn't a spinner lol

Kingdra-Stalemate, both hit each other neutrally.

Aegislash can survive a Specs Hydro Pump in rain and KO back with Spooky Tag Shadow Ball+Sneak. Before you point out that it can't run Air Balloon and Spell Tag at the same time: the fact that Aegislash, without being a dedicated special wall, resisting Dragon/Water, or having a Fairy/Dragon move, can check Specs Kingdra in Rain with even one of its sets (not even a gimmicky set, an actual set people commonly run,) is a little ridiculous.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

If I may...

I feel like a little more diversity is a little better than too little. The reason why is because, and again this is MY OPINION (for those of you who might take what I say as some sort of fact), is that it requires more people to try to build better teams. That takes skill. That takes competitive spirit. That is what OU is about. So why then, keep Aegislash, when it literally counteracts that just by slapping it on a team and going "welp, that was easy".?

Edit: p.s.- I was replying to just the last paragraph.

But even having a little too much diversity lessens a player's ability to combat all threats on a level playing field. Creating teams that can do as well as possible is indeed a skill, but in my opinion, a more important skill to encourage is that "something" that makes one player win and one player lose when they have a perfectly even match up. Those match ups will be rare, but having a huge disadvantage at team preview because you had to choose one threat to counter and one threat to need luck to beat is not a good thing.

Creating teams is a skill, but we didn't let BP stay because of Denniss's (sorry, caps suck) genius in making it. His team got stolen and a huge reason we banned it was because bad players could bypass the team building stage and the actual battling stage to achieve success without much skill at all.

That said, Aegislash's ban wouldn't create win conditions at team preview like BP did or anything like that. Its only noticeable impact would make stall less viable because they'd have more threats to cover, and they can't really cover them all. Even though I'd be fine with stall being worse off (I hate that boring "play" style so much), I strongly dislike the philosophy behind it.

 

[Subject 18]

Drain Punch the turn they King's Shield and Aegislash (or whatever you want to switch in) is boned.

????? What? Conk drain punches on the switch and this helped how? You still have to play around King's shield. Nice, cuz more 50/50s is what this meta needs....

Aegislash does care about burns because it negates its only form of recovery and makes its coverage moves weaker.

Cuz Aegislash is using sacred sword on physically defensive Rotom-W to get past it...

Clefable-Cosmic power+softboil/wish stall.

Flash Cannon? Iron head??Who is actually using cosmic power clefable....

Keldeo-Stalemate.. aegislash has nothing SE and keldeo's occasional HP ghost will even eachother out.

First off what does SE coverage have to do with this matchup? Absolutely nothing. Aegislash has no reason not to Shadow Ball... Also HP Ghost, really? LOL.

Rotom-Trick/burn

You burn to reduce sacred sword damage that Aegislash isn't using to hit you with anyway... Trick scarf Rotom-W is beyond garb but I won't get into that.

Breloom-Spore

Why are you letting Aegislash get spored if it's your breloom check....

Medicham-Fake out around king's shield and fire punch.

Oh look, more 50/50s. That's what I like to see..

Kabutops-Honestly, who is threathened by this thing? Can't hurt aegislash and it can't hurt alot of other spin blockers.. can't touch gengar.

.... Do you even play OU? Waterfall and stone edge beats Gengar, not to mention that kabutops is only found under rain so it's faster. And lol rapid spin kabutops...

Quaqsire-EQ+Recover+don't care for anything bar sub-toxic.

Shadow Ball?

Manectric-Intimidate+overheat/flamethrower

Flamethrower and overheat don't kill and I'm sure it's going to love eating those shadow balls...


Okay, we've gotten to the point where this thread is going in circles. There are a few things I want to see discussed going forward rather than the mindless bickering. The point I want to see talked about more is this:

For Anti-ban to convince me otherwise they need to explain why what we have now is ok. Not why some tiny feature of Aegi isn't broken out of the context of the whole Pokemon, and not why if we change things they might be worse.

Explain why the current metagame is the desirable one over one with Aegislash banned. Posting mindless calcs or making lists hasnt helped anything at this point. As a warning, saying that Aegislash is keeping the tier from falling apart isn't a point of argument and neither is that it keeps certain Pokemon from being broken. Any of those posts will be deleted and infracted because it's been said numerous times that those are not valid points. Also refer to alexwolf's post about why things are banned from a tier that was posted in vr. Thanks.

 

[Starfall11]

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 172-204 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 87-103 (26.8 - 31.7%) -- 33.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 42-49 (9.9 - 11.5%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 218-257 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 361-426 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Conk: Gl with that King's Shield
Rotom-W: Aegislash doesn't give af bout your burn. Rotom doesn't like taking damage.
Mandibuzz: Sub toxic/flash cannon/head smash much?

Ie, Aegislash beats all of these somewhat easily. Even if they did beat aegislash, 3 pokes out of a few dozen does nothing to invalidate my argument

Aegislash may beat them all on a switch. But he really doesn't do much damage to conk. Keep in mind different Aegislash's are used to counter each pokemon as well. Lastly, please use the proper language then. Aegislash does not "check" these pokemon. In other words, they cannot counter Aegislash. But it does not check them.

 

[Rajikaru]

Aegislash may beat them all on a switch. But he really doesn't do much damage to conk. Keep in mind different Aegislash's are used to counter each pokemon as well. Lastly, please use the proper language then. Aegislash does not "check" these pokemon. In other words, they cannot counter Aegislash. But it does not check them.

He never said he checks them, he said he beats them in most situations, which is true. For an example, Aegislash can easily check or even counter Conkeldurr as he's immune to 50% of its moves, and takes only 50% from Knock Off. Plus, King's Shield completely destroys Conkeldurr.

 

[MikeDawg]

I decided a couple hours ago that I'm going to go for reqs (oops a bit late), and I'm almost there. During that time, I made full use of the "newly-borked" mega-hera.

Great mon, except the team that I am using it on was built and was played in the normal meta... In fact, I was running Swords Dance on it in Aegislash OU. I switched to EQ after a bit of time on the No-Aegislash ladder because it likes to be able to kill mawile because #borked.

This post is purely based on personal experience, so results may vary, but I honestly don't think that the removal of Aegislash is going to make an incredible difference in these allegedly post-aegislash broken megas. In fact, I don't think that the meta will be very much less unstable in general by removing aegislash (though there are definitely the added perk of removing aegislash in and of itself). These stall breaking mons are perfectly viable, aegislash or not, and if a team needs to break stall, then it will use them.

 

[alexwolf]

For Anti-ban to convince me otherwise they need to explain why what we have now is ok. Not why some tiny feature of Aegi isn't broken out of the context of the whole Pokemon, and not why if we change things they might be worse.

It's ok because this kind of centralization is fine when Aegislash has such a big number of checks (and a few counters) available, checks and counters that are some of the best Pokemon in OU. From my experience and from a lot of the games i have seen others playing, very few teams have to go out of their way to deal with Aegislash, like you might have to do with Mega Charizard X, Mega Mawile, Thundurus, or Mega Gyarados. In terms of how Aegislash affects the metagame, the pro-ban side keeps arguing that Aegislash limits too many offensive Pokemon and forces them to run otherwise useless coverage moves. And i still have to hear why this is a bad thing. So we are not talking about things that will get worse here, we are talking about a problem that doesn't exist, at least if you like the metagame as offensive as it is, or even less.

Saying that Aegslash limits too many Pokemon means nothing. You have to explain why limiting those Pokemon is bad for the metagame, and so far i haven't been convinced. Of course, this is if you want to prove that Aegislash is bad for the metagame, not individually broken. And anyway, everything has been said so far and everyone has made up his mind, but certain people need to realize that some people from the anti-ban group are not anti-ban because they are afraid of the metagame that is coming without Aegislash, but because the existing metagame has nothing wrong, at least as far as Aegislash is concerned.

 

[fail_at_battling]

Pre-laddering thoughts:
While Aegislash gave my stall team tons of trouble, in general it didn't feel as if if were broken. While it was powerful and bulky at the same time, from my experience observing others, it usually was not powerful enough to OHKO a pokemon, so that two pokemon (or sometimes even one) could be enough to defeat it. Aegislash was powerful and versatile enough to put me on the fence about whether or not it should be banned; however, I leaned slightly more towards not banning it (more details in my previous post somewhere on this thread).

Post-laddering thoughts:
Some of the arguments I have seen is that banning aegislash would create a better meta by freeing moveslots and pokemon, etc. After laddering and achieving the suspect reqs, I actually haven't noticed much change in the meta. I've seen the same number of mega heracross/gardevoir/medicham, and I have not seen mega heracross use swords dance once. In addition, I found the argument that banning aegislash will let lose new threats to make stall harder to use to be invalid, as I ended up making a stall team to adapt to the meta and deal with these threats nearly always (getting to the top 5 of the ladder even with those threats around). However, at the same time, reading posts in this discussion pushed me more towards banning it (it seems to me that the main argument is that it's too great in comparison to most of the other pokemon in the meta). Overall, considering everything pushed me more towards being uncertain; however, I still very slightly feel that while aegislash is great, it is not great enough to be ban-worthy. (I may or may not change my mind later.)

Completely unrelated thoughts:

Hide

My new team was based heavily on using shadow tag to deal with threats, and the fact that normally almost nothing except very good predictions or hax could beat me (and the fact that shadow tag led me from an outdated terrible team to 2-day-suspect reqs) led me to believe that shadow tag is broken, a problem worsened by the absence of aegislash. This has no relevance to the current suspect test, but I just wanted to put this out there for the future.

 

[Numera]

This meta is not desirable over a meta where Aegis is banned. As we already know, Aegislash is centralising like crazy (do I even have to explain how at this point) and is promoting sloppy team building in the sense that there is little reason not to use it on all of your teams. In other words, it's similar to what Genesect did to the meta. It's similarly versatile and centralising if not moreso, except this time it's not spamming U- Turn, it's causing 50/50s and having pseudo 720 base stats.

"If we ban Aegislash X becomes OP"

It's called more suspect tests

"Aegislash meta is fine"
How, exactly? A meta with Aegislash is one where it takes little effort to use the best mon in the meta and where the meta is centralised around a sword forcing multiple Pokemon to run otherwise flawed moves. A new threat centralises like heck when Aegislash is gone? Ban it! It's not that hard. So, now we know what it's like with Aegislash, what is it like without? There are multiple top threats, team building isn't sloppy, there doesn't seem to be 1 huge over centralising threat... What's not to love? I don't see it. Do we want to stay in this endless stalemate of centralisation or do we want a meta with less of that? That's what the "ban or no ban" question boils down to IMO.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

After getting requirements, and playing a good 150 games, I'm not even seeing this increased diversity everybody is fantasising about. The majority of games can be summed up as genie spam, Keldeo or Azu, the same stealth rockers as ever, and a mega. Granted there's an increase in Medicham and Heracross but I didn't see many Gardevoir, not noticeably more than I faced when Aegislash was around. People still continue to use the most OP available stuff to them, and I think that's mainly an issue with players being lazy with their team building rather than Aegislash promoting it. Both CM Raikou and AV Entei helped me reach 2700, and it's because I could rely on the same threats showing up most games. Diversity can be achieved in an Aegislash meta, people would just rather use cookie cutter good sets which is a fault with mentality and not with an admittedly lazy but ultimately flawed mon.

 

[Aircraft Cemetery]

@ people saying that Aegislash is holding OU together and that it therefore shouldn't be banned:

I kinda agree with that, but only before the Deos got banned. Aegislash was literally the only existing pokemon that was able to easily hard counter variants of both Deo-D and Deo-S 100% of the time. It's the only poke that could 2hko both of them while not dying to the LO Deo-S set.

Right now the most prominent threats that would love Aegi to be removed from the tier are the three megas everyone mentions (Garde, Hera, Medi), but I highly doubt that any of those has the potential to be too strong. I'd be more worried about LO Latios, if anything, which now loses its only hard counter that didn't even care about the type of Hidden Power it can run.

Overall I was really glad that the Deos were finally gone (even though I loved using the LO D-S set), because I feel that this opened up the Aegi ban. This game has anough 50/50s already, getting rid of a pokemon that has 720 base stats if it gets its 50/50s right and that has no counters due to its mixed offenses and the plethora of sets it can run can only be a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Ok I need to clear up another argument that the anti-ban side is clinging to that seems largely irrelevant to me.

It goes something like this" Aegislash can only run one set so it can not handle ALL of his counters, just scout out what set it is and he is easy to stop"

Before I get into this I would like to say that I do not think aegislash having 0 full counters is a reason to ban him, because I could argue the same thing for other pokemon, like I have said numerous times it is a summation of traits, not a single one.

So back to the argument, that argument pretty much means you need at least 2 Aegislash counters/checks to effectively scout him out, and if you guess what set he is wrong something is hindered immediately, and I hear some people say "so what mandibuzz got poisoned?" well the so what part is, is Aegislash has team-mates, and that is the thing people arent factoring in, and it has to be done because we are not pushing for an Aegislash ban because he is a pokemon that can sweep teams single-handedly, we are pushing for it because he is the absolute best at what he does, and what he does includes SEVERAL very important roles on a team, and he accomplishes all of them and only takes up one spot.

People then go on to say that he only has 4 moveslots and can not beat all his counters at once, I just do not even understand that argument, I mean so what? Obviously if Aegislash could beat every single one of his counters he would have been quick banned. The whole point is that Aegislash can get slapped on to any team and judging by what the team is struggling with he can just adjust his set to perfectly beat whatever the problem pokemon is/are.

Now comes the scouting part that people are making seem way easier than it actually is, personally I think the 2 best aegislash switchins are spdef heatran and taunt mandibuzz, so lets just say you have BOTH of them on your team, it is a decent enough hazard core and both of them could potentially handle Aegislash so lets see how scouting him would play out. So I will paint the picture as realistically and unbiasedly as I can.

You lead with heatran, he leads with Aegislash
He outspeeds and goes for a LO sacred sword, and you went for rocks
4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 229-270 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(at this point you think you know his set)
you switch to mandibuzz, he makes the retardedly easy prediction and goes for flash cannon
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 218-257 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
recovery

I mean now what do you do? Congrats you have now effectively scouted that it is a Mixed LO variant, and you now have no switchins so every time he comes in he will get a kill. I mean I really dont think this situation is too farfetch'd, I personally think the head smash argument is retarded and gimmicky, LO flash cannon is the way to handle mandibuzz if you want to kill it.

So to sum this up, if you want to mention how Aegislash only has 4 moves, or has low base power moves please refer back to this post. Where I used two of the best Aegislash answers and shown how he can easily dismantle them and soften up the rest of the team for an easy sweep, since Aegislash just decimated that teams special and physical walls. I wish some of you would realize that all of us truly want the meta to be the best it can be, we are not against each other we are supposed to be working together, I just do not see one reason that this meta is better with Aegislash in here other than he checks some broken mons, but we can work on that later.

 

[Pyritie]

You lead with heatran, he leads with Aegislash
He outspeeds and goes for a LO sacred sword, and you went for rocks
4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 229-270 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(at this point you think you know his set)
you switch to mandibuzz, he makes the retardedly easy prediction and goes for flash cannon
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 218-257 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
recovery

I mean now what do you do? Congrats you have now effectively scouted that it is a Mixed LO variant, and you now have no switchins so every time he comes in he will get a kill. I mean I really dont think this situation is too farfetch'd, I personally think the head smash argument is retarded and gimmicky, LO flash cannon is the way to handle mandibuzz if you want to kill it.

You should be able to see the LO recoil after the first sacred sword which is already a huge sign that it's the LO set and will most likely have flash cannon or "something to deal with mandibuzz", so switching to mandi is probably not a good idea.
Why is heatran going for rocks on aegi anyway, when you know it's at risk of a sacred sword? Don't a lot of heatran carry protect for lefties recovery, and couldn't you use that to scout out what it is? Otherwise wouldn't something like a WoW or lava plume be a safer option?

If it's the LO set (which doesn't have king's shield), heatran could easily lava plume the now weak blade forme for the OHKO if it's faster. And you would know if heatran is faster or not by paying attention on the first turn.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

You should be able to see the LO recoil after the first sacred sword which is already a huge sign that it's the LO set and will most likely have flash cannon or "something to deal with mandibuzz", so switching to mandi is probably not a good idea.
Why is heatran going for rocks on aegi anyway, when you know it's at risk of a sacred sword? Don't a lot of heatran carry protect for lefties recovery, and couldn't you use that to scout out what it is? Otherwise wouldn't something like a WoW or lava plume be a safer option?

If it's the LO set (which doesn't have king's shield), heatran could easily lava plume the now weak blade forme for the OHKO if it's faster. And you would know if heatran is faster or not by paying attention on the first turn.

Ok you know its LO and may have flash cannon, so you don't want to send in your mandibuzz. Then what exactly do you send in? Unless your running 3+ aegis checks your already in a bad position.

Since Heatran normall beats aegis, the heatran player would assume aegis would switch out, hence a great opportunity to set up SR. If you did protect or lava plume you essentially just gave keldeo or whatever a free switch in.

It all comes back to the 50/50s aegis causes.