I'd also like to add that it was a pretty important member to Drag-Mag because as you can see with the ban list a lot of them were dragon types which Magnezone often assisted in clearing the field of mons they generally come into trouble with as he can easily be tailor fit to deal with.
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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
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I'd also like to add that it was a pretty important member to Drag-Mag because as you can see with the ban list a lot of them were dragon types which Magnezone often assisted in clearing the field of mons they generally come into trouble with as he can easily be tailor fit to deal with.
the issue is that whenever something comes in on mag, they are taking an analytic-boosted hit to the face, which, when coupled with 135 SpA and Specs, basically screams "nuke". latias needed full out specially defensive investment to avoid a 2hko by flash cannon. chansey was really the only thing that could come in tbh on a neutral hit and not get 2hko'd, and chansey leaving probably tipped the odds a bit too much in magnezone's favour, especially when mag just laughs at the next best pick for a special wall, florges.
besides that, you combine magnezone's powerful offense with an excellent defensive typing and good 70/115/90 bulk to back it up, and you have a sturdy (heh) monster that just dishes out heavy hits.
besides that, you combine magnezone's powerful offense with an excellent defensive typing and good 70/115/90 bulk to back it up, and you have a sturdy (heh) monster that just dishes out heavy hits.
This post is a great one that that shows the real problem of Magnezone. Yes, there is only a handful of pokemon can avoid a 2HKO from Magnezone and this shouldn't need elaboration. However, what more problematic is that things that can sort of 'wall' it will simply get hit by Analytic boosted Volt Switch and completely lose momentum. To make matters worse, every single ground type in the tier is either OHKOed or outsped and 2HKOed by the combination of Flash Cannon and hp grass. The only counter to Magnezone in the tier is Lanturn, which is not really viable. There isn't anything stall can do to stop the volturning attempts of Magnezone.
To make matters worse, Magnezone has great bulk and defensive typing against defensvie pokemon. Why I am saying this is because stall pokes can usually only afford running their STAB as attack, many of which are resisted by Magnezone and gives it a free switch in. To add in that, Magnezone resists SR and is immune to toxic and sandstorm damage, making it ridiculously hard to wear down. All of these factors combined makes Magnezone completely broken.
You see, the only issue I have with these bans and this plan, which I am otherwise completely agree with, would be the future of the banned Pokemon that will stay banned, and will be moved up to OU. Some of these Pokemon seem unlikely to thrive in OU, like Magnezone and Hawlucha. I play OU too, and I'd hate to see Pokemon there that are just barely too strong for UU, and barely strong enough for OU. Does anyone else feel this way?
OU doesn't care what gets banned here and UU doesn't care what gets banned in OU so it makes no difference at all. It sucks that some pokemon will be in limbo like that, but it would just bring more imbalance to the tier it would have been banned from and doesn't affect the higher tier at all
Lanturn doesn't like HP grass either, and can't do much in return
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 240-284 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Lanturn: 274-324 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Lanturn Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 103-123 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 31.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Lanturn Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 151-178 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
by that logic we should unban deoxys-n and arceus-psychic in ou since they are pretty much shit in ubers anyway
the idea is that we ban based on what's broken in this metagame. it doesn't matter if the pokemon becomes utter shit in ou, it is shown to be broken here, and hence it is banned. we banned staraptor for the last 2 generations and he was a rather mediocre choice in OU.
Creating a tier between ou and uu is tough. While there may be a lot of banned pokes now, they can always come back so its hard to justify running a separate tier to use a dozen pokes. Ou will always be the main meta. The rest of the tiers have less of a following (not saying ou is better) and it is tough to get accurate laddering and tiering when only a handful of people are dedicatrd to this mu meta. We created ru last gen between uu and nu. But, if you take all of the players for uu, ru, and nu, you wont even come close to the player base for ou...
I wouldn't actually mind a playable BL tier if possible. I'm not suggesting that that should be on the agenda of the UU staff right now, I'm just sayin' that it would be cool. There are a lot of pokémon in the BL zone that are clearly too OP for UU, but OU is too hostile an environment for them.
As for the current state of the tier, I've found myself struggling to pick a Mega for my offensive team. Most of the current available megas are rather slow. Mega Manectric is probably the current best available fast one, but I'm already running Thundy and having both at once feels redundant. Mega Houndoom would have been a perfect fit for me, but I missed that train. I've been trying out Mega Absol, but its ass base speed in normal form and paper defenses have royally screwed me over too many times. I hate it. Maybe now's the time to try out Mega Aero, or just relapse back into a balanced team with an Aggro-Florges core.
As for the current state of the tier, I've found myself struggling to pick a Mega for my offensive team. Most of the current available megas are rather slow. Mega Manectric is probably the current best available fast one, but I'm already running Thundy and having both at once feels redundant. Mega Houndoom would have been a perfect fit for me, but I missed that train. I've been trying out Mega Absol, but its ass base speed in normal form and paper defenses have royally screwed me over too many times. I hate it. Maybe now's the time to try out Mega Aero, or just relapse back into a balanced team with an Aggro-Florges core.
Using a Mega on hyper-offense teams is pretty difficult right now. You're kinda limited to M-Manectric and M-Aerodactyl. Both obviously have strong points, but if you're really wanting to use Thundurus-T while it's being allowed in UU, then you kinda overlap types (M-Aero) or coverage (M-Manectric) Of course, there are plenty of options for HO teams in general, but most of the Megas in UU currently are best used on bulky offense or balance teams.
Verminator , it may seem a bit redundant, but they don't share a type weakness and you can wallbreak with Thundy-T to let M-Manectric sweep.
Verminator , it may seem a bit redundant, but they don't share a type weakness and you can wallbreak with Thundy-T to let M-Manectric sweep.
I am more than convinced by your post. Magnezone on its own may not be too much of a threat with its horrible speed, but instead of 'sweeping ability' it has got the ability to tear teams apart with its Analytic-boosted hard hitting moves. Its powerful VS does much more than generating momentum and forms cores that would be deemed too good. The 'counters' I mentioned in my previous post would be mere 'switch-ins' which is a more accurate name since they can't really take Mag's other attacks at ease. Since a team usually don't have too many Electric resists or immunities, the switch-ins would be easily predicted. And since Mag's VS is so powerful it doesn't really need to care about Electric resists at all.
That is a very decent VolTurn team your friend got btw~ Really shows how broken certain things were before the ban
Just a nitpick but houndoom was actually becoming more underwhelming as the metagame developed due to its inability to setup nasty plot at all and its constant drop in usage and on the viability ranking thread made it even more clear. It was only banned because it was ''potentially'' broken.
Although I was never a big fan of using Camerupt in UU, it counters standard Specs Magnezone.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 612-720 (177.9 - 209.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even better is that if Specs Magnezone uses an electric move as Camerupt switches in, the Camerupt player will get a free turn as the Magnezone user is locked into a move that does no damage. With M-Ampharos, M-Manectric, and Raikou largely in the same boat (though Camerupt can't switch into M-Ampharos as easily due to STAB Dragon Pulse), Camerupt may actually have a niche large enough to give it a spot in UU.
Other Calcs:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 85-101 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 111-131 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 229-271 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 111-131 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 229-271 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The only one of these electrics Camperupt cannot handle is M-Ampharos, but that one carries the disadvantages of extra weaknesses (Dragon/Ice/Fairy) and usage of the Mega Slot.
Those calcs with Camerupt aren't using Analytic which every defensive Pokemon has to be assuming to take. The definition of a counter assumes you can switch in on it, and if you get 2HKOd because of an Analytic boost (even on only one of the moves) then you are NOT a counter.
The only stuff in BL that's not great in OU is Mega Houndoom, Salamence, Haxorus (sort of,) and maybe Hawlucha. Everything else has a niche or can be used effectively on the right team or given the right support.
BL as a playable tier would just be UU+those pokemon, it'd suck because all the broken stuff would run the tier.
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No you all misunderstood me
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-xy-uu-stage-0-i-lived.3500312/page-14
Houndoomnite according to the last post only got 6 ban votes but in the same post it was said it needed at least 7 for a ban...I know it might be a typo but as I said I was REALLY hoping someone in the council just miscounted and Houndoomnite actually didn't get enough votes...which I said in my other post. I do not think this thread is supposed to discuss past bans anyways apart from the effect they had on the current metagame. So yeah anyone on the council want to answer my question!?!!
Also no Thundy I have seen so far use Superpower or Focus Blast though I am sure they are both very viable. If they do they probably aren't the Agility set because I dunno it seems so suspect to use Focus Blast on something with Agility because you might just waste a set up turn and it's really not strong enough to take out walls in one hit still so they could still cut short the sweep.
Eh I think in any case you're sort of just fooling yourself into thinking Thundy is such a big threat if you give it every single possible move when you can only pick 4. The fact is there are lots and lots of nearly or completely uncounterable Pokemon in UU now if you look at their entire movepool because well the definition of counter most people use is stupidly hard to achieve (for instance can you think of any Pokemon that really counters Kingdra apart from maybe Shedinja).
I'm thinking Nasty Plot isn't going to be as good as other sets like Agility because Thundy already has amazing Spa and the only walls that lose exclusively to NP (like Umbreon, Florges, P2, maybe Cresselia I guess, probably Snorlax) can usually be dealt with with only one or two slots.
to be completely honest i skimmed over that but it does not say anywhere in the op of the tiering thread the ban votes needed were 50% now that I read it...but ok I guess Houndoomnite is really gone then...Thanks for the quick response anyways
yeah Magnezone was ridiculous, you basically needed to have a ground type to stop it from gaining instant momentum on one of the long list of pokemon that can't KO it and are threatened by flash cannon, volt switch, HP Grass or even Signal beam, a lot of the times switching on a Magnezone would just net the switch-in more damage than stealth rock even if it resists volt switch due to Magnezone hitting almost twice as hard with specs + analytic.
I'm personally glad to see it go, even though its probably not the biggest problem UU had. (chansey)
I'm personally glad to see it go, even though its probably not the biggest problem UU had. (chansey)
Also if there are going to be written reasoning for the bans in the future, does that mean every council member will have their own write-up, including why they dissented? Because I'm just as curious to know why certain members voted not to ban certain things, as much as they voted to.
Are there things that might not get retested that are currently BL?
Personally, Drizzle is the one that comes to mind, Heracronite as well. And it makes me sad that we never got to try out a meta with Drought Vulpix :[
Also, BL as a tier is silly. It'd just be UU with broken stuff and it's too volatile as a tier. And there's nothing stopping you from using them in OU. Yes, some of them are underwhelming, but no means are they bad.
Are there things that might not get retested that are currently BL?
Personally, Drizzle is the one that comes to mind, Heracronite as well. And it makes me sad that we never got to try out a meta with Drought Vulpix :[
Also, BL as a tier is silly. It'd just be UU with broken stuff and it's too volatile as a tier. And there's nothing stopping you from using them in OU. Yes, some of them are underwhelming, but no means are they bad.
Revised Magnezone calcs:
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 204-240 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is assuming Camerupt switches in on the attack. Then the next move is
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So Camerupt may die if Magnezone has Analytic (and it usually will). However, Camerupt's EVs can be tinkered a bit:
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 153-180 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 36.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
With the highest damage rolls Camerupt will live with .4% HP and easily KO with Earth Power.
Turn 1: Camerupt switches in:
+1 252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 36.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Turn 2: Magnezone attacks again:
252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 68-81 (22.5 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
176+ SpA Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 348-410 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even if Fire Blast misses Camerupt can survive a third Flash Cannon and go for the kill again.
+1 252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 36.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Turn 2: Magnezone attacks again:
252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt: 68-81 (22.5 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
176+ SpA Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 348-410 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even if Fire Blast misses Camerupt can survive a third Flash Cannon and go for the kill again.
Therefore I propose an EV spread of 80 HP/176 SpA/252 SpD. Most physical attacks (a.k.a. Earthquake) would kill it anyway, even with the traditional EV spread, so the loss of physical bulk doesn't hurt Camerupt much. Plus it has access to Will-o-Wisp if it wants to run that.
It sounds kind of cool, but it wouldn't get enough play to be considered a major tier. You basically have two options: 1) Spam the OP Pokemon; 2) Test obscure counters to the OP Pokemon (like the Camerupt I suggested earlier for Magnezone).
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