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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
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other than simple bibarel, honorable mention goes to rampardos (agility/Iron defense gorebyss works wonders) and medicham (same reasons, but with Baton Pass to keep the chain alive)
Out of curiosity, how does one EV a Shiftry? I think these pokemon are pretty cool, and I just bred some. The analysis doesn't appear to have been touched since early diamond/pearl, and I'm wondering if max Speed was even necessary, or if any investment in bulk was even worth it.
I was also wondering if a Sword dance set would be viable. He has sucker punch and seed bomb for solid STAB, and has explosion for filler.
I was also wondering if a Sword dance set would be viable. He has sucker punch and seed bomb for solid STAB, and has explosion for filler.
Don't use the smogon analysis for a pokemon in NU. period. They are made for the UU and OU tiers, like the porygon2 or the skunktank ones. This is why you'll see random Hidden Power (Ice) on lots of pokemon's movesets, which is thoroughly inadvisable in NU. NU is not officially recognized by smogon, which is why their analyses suck and we don't have our own sub-forum, despite getting more matches than little cup. However, over at project NU we're beginning to make an NU Analysis dex, but we've barely started. I'll figure out the shiftry stuff later today, I have to go take an exam now...
double posting because I want us to stay on the front page, and make sure that everyone sees this and fixs my mistakes.
Okay, shiftry EVs. Shiftry really is mildly bulky by NU standards, but requires real investment to take hits, so the only real reason to cut speed is to invest in both offenses for a mix set, or nab some KO on Golem with Explosion or something.
Preemptive EDIT:PK, I know Skunk Isn't the only priority, but you only make up around 18% of the battles on the ladder. Almost everyone else uses him, so suckerp is the most important calc. EDIT:In retrospect, who on earth would switch skunktank in on a Shiftry if they weren't totally desperate? lol overwork.
EDIT:Scratch all that. Using some screwed up Skunktank suckerp calcs, I've found a speed/Bulk dilemna. Basically, Shiftry's resistance cushions suckerp some, but its frailty means its still a 2KO with SR and one shot of life orb on a 4/0. Meanwhile, If you run just enough speed to outspeed +base 70s (178evs with a + nature) and put the rest into Hp, then Skunky's max is 38.8% That means it has to roll absolute max twice to make that 77.5% bench mark. At the same time, Shiftry's Rock Slide does 35-42%. Not specseggutor, but enough with some LO and SR. Not bad, eh? So, official speed benchmarks:
252+=284spd, tying other 80+ pokes like Gardevoir and Medicham (neither of which will like a suckerpunch to the face themselves)
194+=268spd, to outspeed Skunktank. Not really useful, since they'll probably suckerp, but I've got skunktank on the brain.
178+=264spd, very handily snagging a bonus point to outspeed adamant gabite(lol) as well as base 70s (Magneton, Mantine, outspeed opposing victreebel with suckerp)
252n=259spd, really fairly pointless, just under base 70s, just over Mothim(lol)
Oh, and no matter how much speed you run, Scarfape and bandchan stomp on you, then hurl you against a wall and juggle you with successive uppercuts. So try and run sun support, okay? At which point everything I just wrote is null and void.
I always do this...
*steps back and looks at work*
Did I overdo it?(=( (ponderous smily)
Okay, shiftry EVs. Shiftry really is mildly bulky by NU standards, but requires real investment to take hits, so the only real reason to cut speed is to invest in both offenses for a mix set, or nab some KO on Golem with Explosion or something.
Preemptive EDIT:PK, I know Skunk Isn't the only priority, but you only make up around 18% of the battles on the ladder. Almost everyone else uses him, so suckerp is the most important calc. EDIT:In retrospect, who on earth would switch skunktank in on a Shiftry if they weren't totally desperate? lol overwork.
EDIT:Scratch all that. Using some screwed up Skunktank suckerp calcs, I've found a speed/Bulk dilemna. Basically, Shiftry's resistance cushions suckerp some, but its frailty means its still a 2KO with SR and one shot of life orb on a 4/0. Meanwhile, If you run just enough speed to outspeed +base 70s (178evs with a + nature) and put the rest into Hp, then Skunky's max is 38.8% That means it has to roll absolute max twice to make that 77.5% bench mark. At the same time, Shiftry's Rock Slide does 35-42%. Not specseggutor, but enough with some LO and SR. Not bad, eh? So, official speed benchmarks:
252+=284spd, tying other 80+ pokes like Gardevoir and Medicham (neither of which will like a suckerpunch to the face themselves)
194+=268spd, to outspeed Skunktank. Not really useful, since they'll probably suckerp, but I've got skunktank on the brain.
178+=264spd, very handily snagging a bonus point to outspeed adamant gabite(lol) as well as base 70s (Magneton, Mantine, outspeed opposing victreebel with suckerp)
252n=259spd, really fairly pointless, just under base 70s, just over Mothim(lol)
Oh, and no matter how much speed you run, Scarfape and bandchan stomp on you, then hurl you against a wall and juggle you with successive uppercuts. So try and run sun support, okay? At which point everything I just wrote is null and void.
I always do this...
*steps back and looks at work*
Did I overdo it?(=( (ponderous smily)
Why would he be talking to me? ._.
I've been testing out a Lead Hitmonchan and I've been liking it so far.
Okay. Should I take into account Sunny Day at all? they do have chlorophyll. Should I count on outspeeding everything in NU after the boost?
You, because I know I can count on you harp at overfocusing on skunktank.=)
I know you can switch out of primeape, but he's using an SD shiftry(I think) and I wanted some way to keep your boost. And can I just say that Drifblim needs Air Slash? That would make it the absolute ultimate fighting counter. (other than an Ice Punch weakness) No time for calcs this morning... How much does standard scarfape take from shiftry's neutral seed bomb, followed by a suckerpunch?
Oh, and don't coun't on your opponent running sun, either make a sunny day team (which are fairly potent with such dangerous fires running around, but most people don't like giving their opponent's Mag/tails/typh/char an extra STAB. Imagine the raw power of a double STABed eruption.
Ah I see. Anyway assuming Adamant + 252, Primeape takes a staggering (83.9% - 98.9%) from Seed bomb and (41.8% - 49.3%)from Sucker punch.
Jolly Nature (76.4% - 90.4%) from Seed Bomb and (38.2% - 45%) from sucker punch.
0_o I did not know that Shiftry was that strong...
Sunny day with 80 base speed probubly outruns everything in the tier without a Scarf and a large base speed (Primape. That is all), but if you do that you get 3 turns of sweeping. Maybe 6 if they had a Heat Rock. And unlike rain, you CAN'T spam STAB boosted attack, because it isn't boosted by the weather as well.
BTW, when I get back to my computor with Shoddy, I'm using Flareon. 110 base Special defense + Flash fire + that beefy 130 attack (IE Scizor's base attack) + a PASSABLE 90 base special attack = something that MIGHT work in NU.
BTW, when I get back to my computor with Shoddy, I'm using Flareon. 110 base Special defense + Flash fire + that beefy 130 attack (IE Scizor's base attack) + a PASSABLE 90 base special attack = something that MIGHT work in NU.
The attack will never be used. (Fire Fang is it's strongest STAB... really Nintendo) Thankfully that SpA is useful and with Lava plume it will be hard to take down.
Actually that's not always the case. Standard HP Rock Typhlosion only manages a paltry 30.5% - 35.9% with HP Rock. Naturally this applies to Charizard too due to the same SpA. Magmortar doesn't do much better
(43.1% - 50.9%)
To right she is.
Long story short Flareon hard counters these special fire types.
I mean it's just not worth staying in and HP rocking because of Toxic. Naturally SR puts a damper on this but she can still tank most of their shots.
Which brings me to my next point, I can recognize that these fire types are *powerful* but they are nowhere near broken, with Magmortar being a top tier pokemon. Typhlosion himself doesn't impress me in the slightest because while Eruption is mad strong, it's still stoppable by using a bulky water. Worse still it doesn't have Zard's insane power in Choice Specs (it's best damned set imo) or Magmortar team breaking power. No, at the end of the day Typhlosion will be churned out.
(as usual sigh...)
I rather use Calm Mind Ninetales for the task. 100 base sp.def isn't far from Flareon 110, and CM keeps Ninetales offensive while walling the hell out of the special fire types out there (recovering health with Pain Split, of course).
How do you NU guys handle NP Ninetales, actually? Seems like all the fire resists in the tier die horribly to +2 HP Rock or Energy Ball.
Ninetails lacks Flareon's wish. Sure it's decent as Special wall but but I would rather use Flareon (who is more of a team player)
And I'm going to be the first to say this, NP Ninetails is the *best* Fire sweeper in the entire tier. It's got more bulk and speed then the others at the cost of power. NP makes that fact none-existant. Sure it misses Magmortar's raw power but it's a lot speedier. Typhlosion has Eruption... which is very easily worked around. Specs Zard can tear some shit up but has a nasty SR weakness and can only rely on 1 move.
Next to nothing. Sure Flareon can take on 2+ HP Rock (58.1% - 68.9%) but it can only Toxic it back. Mantine is a decent option but.
Good thing luring out Skuntank is pretty fucking easy. Everyone has one. I like using Specs Eggy which CRIPPLES skuntank with Leafstorm. (It's even an OHKO with some entry hazards...)
First:
+2 HP Rock from Ninetales: 58.1% - 68.9%
Earthquake from Scarfphlosion: 58.7% - 69.5%
HP Rock from LOZard: 35.9% - 42.5% (Nobody runs this though...)
Focus Blast from LOMortar: 36.8% - 43.4%
All are 2HKOs most of the time with SR. With a layer or two of Spikes....
Anyways, Flareon's not a hard counter, just a major bitch.
The three are definitely a lot worse this time around, mainly because Slowking isn't here to be buttfucked by Pursuit. Bulky waters are a lot harder to remove now. The thing is though, Magmortar still cuts through stall like butter, so I'd put him in a different category.
That being said Qwilfish+Charizard is a really good combination. Remember Froslass + Moltres in UU? That but better. Forcing around a couple switches with clever switching easily brings other teams in KO range of these attacks. I hate Persian leads though.
Freaking hilarious. Leave it to Leman to create the ultimate imagery.
Don't forgot that Ninetails can do the same with NP too. It's wider coverage makes Stall team's shit their pants.
I don't even KNOW why Magmortar's run Focus Blast now... Steel's are still hit hard by Fire blast and Rock types? The rock types in UU are murdered by Fire blast. Focus Blast for owning Miltank but now...
True, but T-bolt does similar damage without the craparacy. (I think it still 2HKO's)
But Manetric doesn't learn Focus Blast...
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