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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)

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Defensive or stall-ish teams based on residual damage are not going to be as popular as TR teams or offensive teams in general. But I just want to mention a couple of things a respectable defensive team should consider:

- Taunt lead.- Gligar, Bibarel and Purugly come to mind. Bibarel can handle Solrock/Lunatone leads that try to twist the dimentions and threaten them with a boosted Waterfall. Yawn offers a nice support move and when paired with Stealth Rock, your opponent will have to think twice before switching. Gligar, on the other hand, comes with a couple of resistances and Roost to live through many turns while he prevents TR from setting up. He's weak to Slowking's Surf and Ice Beam, though. Purugly has access to Fake Out and U-Turn to scout and act accordingly.

- Entry hazards and a spiner!.- Vileplume absorbs and sets his own Toxic Spikes, heals status and has an instant recovery move, while Cloyster sets Spikes and spins them away, too. Sandslash lacks a recovery move but he can dent things with Stone Edge or Earthquake.

- Something that forces switches.- Jumpluff comes to mind obviously since he gets Sub and Leech Seed, has a Ground immunity and a Fighting resistance. Forcing switches is priority because it keeps TR sweepers at bay.

- Solid Normal and Fighting resistances.- Slaking, Tauros, Ursaring, Raticate and Medicham look very difficult to stop, and as long as the Policy eyes stay in UU, we'll have to deal with them. Of course Drifblim, Haunter and Banette come to mind. But also Aggron, Solrock and Bastiodon should be considered.

Instead of a Taunt lead, a quick Sleep Powder coming from Venomoth or Butterfree could work, too.
 
Cloyster @ Leftovers
Bold / Shell Armor
252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Rest
Sleep Talk
Spikes
Toxic Spikes

..would be an interesting set, if you get lucky. Of course, Surf or Ice Beam would work.
 
OK, I guess with Flash Fire you kind of neuter Ninetales and threaten with TWave or something, another +1 (though Gardevoir pulls off this feat much easier with its inflated SpDef). Offensive Flareons can simply Superpower you.

The only Water Absorber I've seen are Lapras and a few Mantine. Mantine likes to carry Toxic making it risky to stay in against it, and Lapras has STAB ice moves to hit you with, and enough defense to laugh at your weak unSTABed Thunderbolt (it has the same defensive strength as Vaporeon, and Porygon is much weaker than Porygon2). And unless you're facing a dragon dancer they don't particularly care about T-wave either.

Lol Aftermath and Traunt.

I've been using 252 hp/ 252 def 6 s def calm politoed (basic EVs distribution, i know) and he does pretty well, but there are SO many gardevoir (t-bolt) that traces Water absorb that he's not reliable at all, and I think it applies to all bulky water with water absorb (Lapras, poliwrath, etc)

[I deleted this because if this lead becomes famous it will be scrwed]
 
has anyone else tried subpunch poliwrath? I've been running substitute, focus punch, waterfall, hypnosis, and it's been working out really well. lots of walls can't break his sub, and with a sub up it's a lot safer to use hypnosis against something threatening.

Yeah i use a similar set, except without hypnosis and varying between both icepunch and toxic. It really is undervalued.
 
I have updated the threat list. There are some statistics from the first week in the fourth post. I put them up because people have been asking and it gives a slight idea of what is going on currently. I do plan on putting up number rankings and percentages to help but I need to speak to the appropriate members to see if that can be done automatically (it's horrible doing it manually). I plan on looking through some of the write ups other people have done soon.

It is good to see some discussion. It's a shame some members have blatently missed the "intelligent posting only" rule that I even added to the original post so I had to ask Mekkah to delete some posts for me. Let's not make it happen again please.

I played a bit of NU today. After building my first ever team (designed around U-turn CB Primeape), I have to say it almost seems like slapping a Choice Band or Scarf onto many Pokémon just works (or maybe I got lucky). Many of the "defensive" Pokemon in the tier seem to be 2HKOed by random offensive threats after Stealth Rock which is pretty cool when it comes to team building as you have so many choices. Primeape is absolutely amazing - Vital Spirit means my Lum Berry Relicanth could get a Stealth Rock against sleep leads, and then I could go to Primeape to threaten the opponent (most of the time U-turning out). Taunt / Will-O-Wisp / Recover / Shadow Ball Sableye is also really good. I have yet to try Dusclops but just for Recover, Sableye seems a viable Pokemon for a team slot. Sableye has that Psychic-immunity too which means Medicham's STAB moves are useless.

Articuno with Roar, Roost, Substitute, and Ice Beam can be a problem to quite a few teams too it seems. It helps against people who only use one Pokemon to deal with Articuno as you can Substitute as they come in, then Roar, then potentially Roost / Substitute again and so on. It racks up damage quite nicely, it just sucks against Regice with Rest. Gligar was great for checking certain Pokémon but I felt constantly fearful of switching it in. Overall I quite like it so far, and haven't been dominated by a specific threat yet (barring Magneton, but that's arguably because I did not take it into consideration when building my team). :(
 
I might as well post what I have posted in the NU forum for other people to look at. It includes the top 10 NU leads.

The Top Ten Leads

By looking at the July usage statistics, below will be the current top 10 leads used on the ladder in the NU metagame.


Lead #10 - Cloyster
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Cloyster has been seen a relatively unusual lead. With its huge Defense stat, it definitely makes it worth using as most of the top 10 leads are physically based. Not only that, but Cloyster has access to Ice Shard and Explosion which can really throw some people off guard. Also, it has access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes which it can set up quite easily and can then finish its job by exploding in the opposing Pokemon's face.

Lead #9 - Floatzel
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Thanks to Floatzel's amazing base Speed of 115 and having access to Taunt definitely makes Floatzel a reliable lead. Since it has access to Taunt and is coupled with its high Speed, Floatzel is capable of stopping opposing leads from setting up entry hazards, leads that are planning to boost their attacks via boosting moves, or leads that attempt to induce status. Floatzel is also capable of setting up on its own by setting up Rain Dance or by boosting its respectable base 105 Attack further by using Bulk Up and attempting to sweep by using its powerful STAB Waterfall.

Lead #8 - Venomoth
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Venomoth may seem a bit worthless because of its pitiful defensive stats, but it does have a few things that help improve its leading capabilities. First off, it has access to the second most viable sleep move in the game, being Sleep Powder which has a 75% chance to cause the opponent to fall asleep. Not only that, but it can boost Sleep Powder's accuracy up to 82.25% by wielding Wide Lens. Having a base Special Attack stat of 90 is definitely not to be underlooked, as it has two very strong STAB moves which are Bug Buzz and Sludge Bomb. Even though it may not have such great type coverage, its ability Tinted Lens allows it to hit Pokemon that resist its STAB attacks for double the damage. Lastly, Venomoth is another viable lead to set up Toxic Spikes early in the game because of its decent Speed stat and having Sleep Powder.

Lead #7 - Entei
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Entei sadly doesn't have such a great movepool, but as a lead, Entei has definitely found a way to forget about its terrible movepool and attempt to wreak havoc with Eruption. With a great base Speed stat of 100 and a decent base Special Attack stat of 90, Entei can become a viable Choice Scarf or Choice Specs lead by attempting to destroy the opposing team by repeatedly using the all powerful STAB Eruption with a mighty base power of 150 assuming Entei is at full health.

Lead #6 - Jumpluff
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Jumpluff is probably known as one of the most annoying Pokemon to fight. The reason for this is because of its high base Speed stat of 110, which allows it to reach a maximum of 350 Speed. Not only that, but it also has access to Sleep Powder, being able to outspeed most of the common leads and sleep them before they have a chance to move. Jumpluff also has the popular Leech Seed and Substitute combo, and with its great Speed, it can definitely abuse this and frustrate the opponent. But that's not all, Jumplufff unsurprisingly has access to Encore, another move that can really annoy the opponent as it can easily Encore as the opponent attempts to attack after setting up an entry hazard and can easily end a Pokemon's chance at boosting its stats, which will definitely force multiple switches.

Lead #5 - Relicanth
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Relicanth may seem underlooked, but being in the 5th position lets everyone know that Relicanth is still viable. Having a huge base 130 Defense stat coupled with its high base 100 HP stat definitely makes Relicanth a tough lead to take down since most of the common leads are physically based. It can also reliably set up Stealth Rock due to its grand defenses. Even though it has a big Defense stat, its base 90 Attack stat should never be looked down upon. With its ability Rock Head, it can safely use Head Smash and dent practically anything that doesn't resist it. Not only that, but most of the Pokemon that resist Rock-type attacks are hit for super effective damage with Waterfall.

Lead #4 - Purugly
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Purugly plays the same role as Persian, as it is quite identical. Having a reliable Speed stat and having Taunt, Fake Out, Hypnosis, and U-turn definitely makes it worth considering. It also has the ability Thick Fat which makes it slightly more bulkier then Persian, but it still lacks the defensive stats to use it effectively. The only advantage Purugly has over Persian is that its Attack stat is higher, making Return much more stronger. On the other hand, its Fake Out attack does less damage since Persian receives a Technician boost. Even though Fake Out won't do as much as Persian's would, Purugly does have one move that Persian fails to get; Sucker Punch. Purugly is the only Pokemon that can use the Fake Out + Taunt + Sucker Punch combo in NU (aside from Croagunk), and this makes Purugly stand out much more then Persian when it comes to leading.

Lead #3 - Gligar
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Gligar is definitely successful as a lead. It basically has everything a lead needs. Decent Speed, respectable Attack, great overall bulk, many support moves, and having a great dual typing makes it a primary choice when it comes to leading. Gligar also has the power to fit practically any lead role. It can become defensively bulky, it can become fast and powerful, it can Toxic stall with Roost, and it can use Taunt to stop the lead from setting up Stealth Rock, which it can then set up its own.

Lead #2 - Persian
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Persian is in second place for a good reason. Having a great Speed stat that reaches a maximum of 361 and moves such as Fake Out, Taunt, and Hypnosis definitely make it worth considering. Fake Out allows it to break the opposing leads Focus Sash and can stop them from setting up with Taunt, or can easily use Hypnosis to put the lead to sleep. Not only that, but it's ability Technician makes Fake Out much more stronger then usual and it can definitely hurt defensively frail Pokemon. It also has U-turn which it can use to its advantage. If you successfully sleep the lead, the opponent will most likely switch out, allowing you to U-turn on the switch-in and you can then choose the most appropriate Pokemon to handle it.

Lead #1 - Pinsir
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And finally, the biggest of all leads. Being in first place, Pinsir makes a fantastic offensive lead. Having a huge base Attack stat of 125 coupled with its decent base 85 Speed stat definitely makes Pinsir one of the most threatening leads. X-Scissor is its strongest offensive attack as it receives a STAB boost and severely dents many leads. Even though Pinsir is used offensively as a lead, it definitely makes a reliable Stealth Rock user as it can set it up as the opposing lead switches out from being hit by one of Pinsir's powerful moves in the fear of being KOed.


That's all. Tell me if I missed anything. :S
 
Haha, people need to smarten up and start to use tauros. It can take on most of those leads with a return, earthquake, stone edge, toxic set with a lum berry. Due to intimidate it also can be one shotted by pinsirs close combat and persians fake out does little damage.
 
wow, so many of the leads are physical, to bad many physcial walls are hit super effective by pinsir, and leads that beat pinsir can be taken down by persian/purugly or gligar. I am currently checking every pokemon in NU to find a nice anti-lead, but since the leads are so diverse, I've decided to just make a list of all the pokemon who can beat pinsir, then cross off the ones who lose to persian, etc., until once I have no more pokes, I pick the best one from the last round. Should hopefully have it narrowed down by morning, will post/edit then.
 
Persian doesn't get Quick Attack? Weird.

One thing that really surprises me is the lack of TrickScarf leads. Maybe it's because the metagame is still developing.
 
Persian doesn't get Quick Attack? Weird.

One thing that really surprises me is the lack of TrickScarf leads. Maybe it's because the metagame is still developing.

Or because out of the top 10 only cloyster, gligar and jumpluff dont want a scarf. The others can just continue, youve probably given tham a weapon if anything.
 
I've been using a lead Hitmonchan for yonks now, and I've never regretted the decision. It has a least a half-decent answer to all of the top 10 leads with Close Combat, Fire Punch and Mach Punch. In the last slot I'm currently running Toxic, but I occasionally swap it with Ice Punch to keep Taunt Gligar leads on their toes. None of them can OHKO, and those with Fake Out are weak to Mach Punch, so they normally don't risk staying in afterwards, and I can sometimes take advantage by predicting their switch.

EDIT: @ Blue Tornado - no, he meant July. It's August now, check the top of your post.
 
Umm, don't you mean June?

When I saw this the first time, I though I was going to have a heart attack. lol

Hahaha had that heart attack yet? XD

Getting back on topic this is one of my favourite leads, being able to beat almost all the others.

Tauros@lum berry or lefties Jolly 252 speed, 252 attack and 6 hp
Return
EarthQuake
StoneEdge
Substitute/toxic

heres how it fares against the common leads.

Floatzel: 2hko'd by return letting it only raindance while you sub as it switches getting a free hit at their sweeper

Venomoth: Lum means no matter what you cant be slept if its scarfed. You can either strait up 0hko it or set up a sub against its powder and then ko it.

Entei: 2hko'd by earthquake as it struggles to 2 hko you. Although if its scarfed then its more than likely to 0hko you.

Jumpluff: Look at jumpluff, but be careful when using sub as it pushes a speed tie and can encore.

Relicanth: Reli gets intimidated and unfortunatley is 3 hko'd. It can 2 hko back with headsmash, but if it misses or uses stealth rock then you win.

Purugly: Its 2hkod by return and is intimidated and you can sub up as it uturns getting a free shot at whoever is switched in.

Gligar: You deal 44.01% - 52.10% to the standard lead gligar as it sets up rocks and earthquake if you dont hit the high damage roll.

Persian:Almost exactly the same as purugly exept fake out does alot more.

Pinsir: This is the real reason you have sub. You sub as it close combats lowering its defense and then use stone edge (and pray it hits) dealing 110.29% - 130.15%
 
Entei: 2hko'd by earthquake as it struggles to 2 hko you

What if it is a Scarf Entei?

Also, I'm not sure if this is a mistake or not, but you say your Tauros has an Adamant nature. If this is true, then pretty much all Enteis beat you, especially Specs Entei. Jumpluff also always outruns you.

And on an unrelated note, my Hitmonchan lead beats your Tauros too!
 
Yeah, that was a mistake, thanks for the pick up. Also a scarf entei deals 95.89% - 113.36% so in this case tauros is beaten. ill edit that into the op.

Also your hitmonchan is dealt with the same way pinsir is with the sub strategy and if you mach punch then you deal 35.62% - 43.15%, 3hkoing.
 
Yeah, that was a mistake, thanks for the pick up. Also a scarf entei deals 95.89% - 113.36% so in this case tauros is beaten. ill edit that into the op.

Also your hitmonchan is dealt with the same way pinsir is with the sub strategy and if you mach punch then you deal 35.62% - 43.15%, 3hkoing.

Yep. A -1 Attack, Fist Plated Hitmonchan averages just under 50% to 4 / 0 Tauros with Mach Punch. Pretty powerful indeed. Substitute doesn't really do anything useful in that situation, except that it allows me to scout out the set without getting hurt.
 
Has anyone considered Golbat as a lead? It gets Taunt, has Inner Focus (to basically laugh at Persian's Fake Out) and is fast enough to Taunt a good amount of the metagame.
 
I'm running a Sunny Day team, and I can say this:

Cherrim the the Porygon-Z of NU. Why?

Choice-Specs, Flower Gift, STAB Solarbeam.

With a Special Attack Stat of 448 with 252/Modest and specs, along with a Base 120 move, and Flower Gift, Cherrim hurts everything with Solarbeam, unless they X4 resist it. Even a 252/6 Regice is 2HKO'ed with Rocks up, and Grumpig and Hypno are 2HKO'ed without rocks.

Cherrim also sports similar defensive stats, and speed.

I'm also running a Mixed Shiftry, which under the sun, with SolarBeam, Dark Pulse, Aerial Ace, and X-Scissor has amazing coverage, and hits most pokemon VERY hard, with Life Orb into account.
It hits Rocks, Grounds, Waters, Grasses, Darks, Psychics, Ghosts, Bugs, and Fightings all for Super-Effective Damage, and everything in NU for neutral except Malwile (Like I'll see that anywhere) and Magneton (Will fear the risk of a HP Fire).

It comes with the bonus of outspeeding almost everything under the sun, except Jumpluff. The EV's are still being worked on, but I'm running a 104 Attack/252 Speed/152 Special Attack and Mild Nature and Life Orb right now.
 
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