Phione has access to the Water+Ice+Grass combination, which is fantastic wherever you are. Golduck slightly outclasses it, but Politoed most definitely does not.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
- Start date
- Status
Zangoose@Leftovers (SubPunch)
Adamant
6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Focus Punch
Substitute
Return
Shadow Claw
Opinions? I came up with this while making a NU team.
Adamant
6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Focus Punch
Substitute
Return
Shadow Claw
Opinions? I came up with this while making a NU team.
My point exactly, the advantages of U-turn on Phione are moderate at best. Being able to outrun Medicham and counter weather is far more important for an offensive Water type IMO. U-turn can be good for a bulky version, but if Phione's trying to be a bulky Water then it will probably want a decent method of recovery, i.e. Hydration Rest, especially with 80 / 80 / 80 defenses. You want your bulky Water to last after all, but that's just me.
I still think being able to hit most water types harder with Grass Knot > Cross Chop is a huge advantage, especially Bibarel, Relicanth, Walrein, Quagisire, etc. I do agree that Phione should be played defensively with Hydration abuse, however it is still not entirely outclassed by Golduck.
Bibarel and Relicanth are hit harder with HP Grass, whilst the extra special attack makes up for the lower BP against Quagsire and Slowking. And guess who has Psychic for Poliwrath? Grass Knot is more useful for the big three Water / Ice types I admit, but even then Golduck has the option of Focus Blast or the aforementioned Cross Chop.
I didn't intend for my statement to be taken too literally. Phione isn't completely outclassed offensively, it is just that when looking for an offensive Water to go on your team, I can't see why anyone would consider Phione to be the better option long term given all the advantages that Golduck possesses. IMO it is not even comparable to the Munchlax > Lickilicky debate, where the Fire / Ice resistances can be crucial enough to be worth the lower Defense on a Curse set.
I'm surprised to see that Venonat isn't listed as a threat in NU. It is the only Pokemon to Baton Pass while having a 97% sleeping move.
Venomoth can do the same thing with higher stats, but sometimes you can't afford to miss with Sleep Powder. The set I use is very successful, even in OU.
Venomoth can do the same thing with higher stats, but sometimes you can't afford to miss with Sleep Powder. The set I use is very successful, even in OU.
Even then I'd prefer Shield Dust to Compoundeyes in order to protect myself against Fake Out leads such as Persian and Sneasel, so I'd still prefer Venomoth even in that regard. It might not have a 97% sleep move, but for certain situations 75% >> 0%. That and Venomoth can outrun the most common Taunt lead in Gligar, and at least tie with Golbat. Venonat is just not worth it IMO.
Use a scarf Butterfree. Its fast, it can use sleep powder, stun spore and poisonpowder.
There are a few things wrong with that threat list, but the most glaring is calling Manectric the most unpredictable NU Pokemon (maybe I read that wrong?). Any Manectric set will contain: Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, and HP Grass. Options to run Choice sets or Substitute sets does not make it unpredictable. In fact, it's hard to think of more predictable Pokemon.
And its movepool is hardly amazing. Its hard to even think of a fourth move for a Choice set. Thunder, Overheat, Hyper Beam?
And its movepool is hardly amazing. Its hard to even think of a fourth move for a Choice set. Thunder, Overheat, Hyper Beam?
Leafeon usage soared recently. He was the most used Pokemon last week, whilst Medicham wasn't even in the top 10.
Victreebel is VERY underrated right now. Whenever people fight my Victreebel, they end up becoming frustrated, and celebrating when it finally falls.
Base 105 Attack is great in NU, and Base 100 Special Attack makes it a Mixed Sweeper second to Octillery. Base 70 Speed is good in NU, especially when you see that under the sun, with 132 Speed EV's a Victreebel outruns anything without a bost of it's own.
Victreebel can run a powerful Swords Dance Set of Leaf Blade, Sucker Punch, and Return (Albeit, with Steels 'walling' it, despite the fact that NU Steels won't be doing much back, and still be taking heavy hits)
It can also run a Choice Band/Specs set with good effect.
My personal choice, however, is what I call 'Mixtreebel'. This is what usually makes my foes pull their hair out in frustration. Used on a Sunny Day Team.
Can't recall the EV's right now, or Nature, but the set is this:
Sucker Punch
SolarBeam
Leaf Blade
Sludge Bomb
The lack of Grass-resistant steels in NU alows this set to be effective. Mixtreebel comes in after something faints, such as an exploding Solrock, and proceeds to unleash STAB mayhem. In the event that something that can take Special Hits comes in, Leaf Blade is there for STAB and dealing a heavy hit, as well as STAB without the sun up.
Sucker Punch is great for out-of sun fun. From a Base 105 Attack Stat, Sucker Punch is almost as deadly off Victreebel as it is from a Skuntank. In addittion, few Grass-type counters can take a STAB attack, and then, a Sucker Punch/Other STAB attack, without losing massive chunks of their HP.
Sludge Bomb kills other Grass Types, as well as scoring good hits on Fire types, Bugs, ect, ect.
This beast sweeps half a team for me more often than not... and it's not even counted as an 'offensive threat'.
On the other hand, Vileplume's most powerful offensive set I could muster... usually fails epicly. (Specs with Base 100 sp.attack and STAB SHOULD hurt stuff... but my Cherrim hurt more things, despite a lower sp.attack 0_0, maybe it's because it's making my foes LOL)
Base 105 Attack is great in NU, and Base 100 Special Attack makes it a Mixed Sweeper second to Octillery. Base 70 Speed is good in NU, especially when you see that under the sun, with 132 Speed EV's a Victreebel outruns anything without a bost of it's own.
Victreebel can run a powerful Swords Dance Set of Leaf Blade, Sucker Punch, and Return (Albeit, with Steels 'walling' it, despite the fact that NU Steels won't be doing much back, and still be taking heavy hits)
It can also run a Choice Band/Specs set with good effect.
My personal choice, however, is what I call 'Mixtreebel'. This is what usually makes my foes pull their hair out in frustration. Used on a Sunny Day Team.
Can't recall the EV's right now, or Nature, but the set is this:
Sucker Punch
SolarBeam
Leaf Blade
Sludge Bomb
The lack of Grass-resistant steels in NU alows this set to be effective. Mixtreebel comes in after something faints, such as an exploding Solrock, and proceeds to unleash STAB mayhem. In the event that something that can take Special Hits comes in, Leaf Blade is there for STAB and dealing a heavy hit, as well as STAB without the sun up.
Sucker Punch is great for out-of sun fun. From a Base 105 Attack Stat, Sucker Punch is almost as deadly off Victreebel as it is from a Skuntank. In addittion, few Grass-type counters can take a STAB attack, and then, a Sucker Punch/Other STAB attack, without losing massive chunks of their HP.
Sludge Bomb kills other Grass Types, as well as scoring good hits on Fire types, Bugs, ect, ect.
This beast sweeps half a team for me more often than not... and it's not even counted as an 'offensive threat'.
On the other hand, Vileplume's most powerful offensive set I could muster... usually fails epicly. (Specs with Base 100 sp.attack and STAB SHOULD hurt stuff... but my Cherrim hurt more things, despite a lower sp.attack 0_0, maybe it's because it's making my foes LOL)
In terms of coverage, his movepool is great. I do agree that he is very predictable, but he is still a huge threat that even special walls have troubles beating.
That victrebel set is very similar to the one I use, but I use Hp Ground over Solarbeam, just incase of a rouge magneton, which are quite popular.
I've been testing out a Scarf Roselia in my most recent team, and its been a monster so far. Natural cure is helpful for expect status, and its base 100 special attack means it hits pretty hard. The set I've been using is:
Roselia (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 40 HP/216 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sleep Powder
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Sludge Bomb
The Speed EVs mean it out runs +ve base 115s, but 36 hp evs could be moved into speed to tie with scarfed Hitmonchan. Unfortunately it can't really take hits due to its piss poor hp and physical defense, so it dies to priority, but its gotten me a lot of KOs, especially against Jumpluff who hates getting outsped and OHKO'd.
I've been testing out a Scarf Roselia in my most recent team, and its been a monster so far. Natural cure is helpful for expect status, and its base 100 special attack means it hits pretty hard. The set I've been using is:
Roselia (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 40 HP/216 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sleep Powder
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Sludge Bomb
The Speed EVs mean it out runs +ve base 115s, but 36 hp evs could be moved into speed to tie with scarfed Hitmonchan. Unfortunately it can't really take hits due to its piss poor hp and physical defense, so it dies to priority, but its gotten me a lot of KOs, especially against Jumpluff who hates getting outsped and OHKO'd.
Err... what does focus punch do that close combat cant? Its not like it could set up a sub anyway.
Here's some sets I've been using and find they can be quite effective:
DDing Dragonair:
Dragonair @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 4 HP/176 Atk/240 Spd/88 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Substitute/Light Screen/Toxic
- Surf/Fire Blast/Thunderbolt
It was seen in UU that even Altaria can hurt stuff with DD'd Outrages, and it only has Base 70 Attack stat, while Dragonair has 84. After one Dragon Dance, Outrage is able to OHKO or 2HKO many Pokemon, and those that can't can be left to your secondary attack. Surf is for stuff like Aggron and Bastiodon, Fire Blast for unresisted coverage, and Thunderbolt is for Cloyster that would otherwise a major pain. I like to run Substitute, since it stops WoW's or Thunder Waves coming you way, but you can set up a screen if you fear Ice Beams or Toxic for Shedinja if you are running Surf or Thunderbolt.
Suicide Lead Beedrill:
Beedrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SDef
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Toxic Spikes
- Endeavor
- X-Scissor
- Protect
This set guarantees at least one layer of Toxic Spikes down, and maybe even a major crippling from Endeavor if you are lucky. Protect is for those annoying Persians that think they can Fake Out you.
DDing Dragonair:
Dragonair @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 4 HP/176 Atk/240 Spd/88 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Substitute/Light Screen/Toxic
- Surf/Fire Blast/Thunderbolt
It was seen in UU that even Altaria can hurt stuff with DD'd Outrages, and it only has Base 70 Attack stat, while Dragonair has 84. After one Dragon Dance, Outrage is able to OHKO or 2HKO many Pokemon, and those that can't can be left to your secondary attack. Surf is for stuff like Aggron and Bastiodon, Fire Blast for unresisted coverage, and Thunderbolt is for Cloyster that would otherwise a major pain. I like to run Substitute, since it stops WoW's or Thunder Waves coming you way, but you can set up a screen if you fear Ice Beams or Toxic for Shedinja if you are running Surf or Thunderbolt.
Suicide Lead Beedrill:
Beedrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SDef
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Toxic Spikes
- Endeavor
- X-Scissor
- Protect
This set guarantees at least one layer of Toxic Spikes down, and maybe even a major crippling from Endeavor if you are lucky. Protect is for those annoying Persians that think they can Fake Out you.
I've come up with a nice scarf set for Gardevoir. It's unpredictable and makes for a nice revenge killer as well as hitting pretty hard with a base 125 Sp.Atk.
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Ev's: 6 Hp/252 Sp.Atk/ 252 Spd
Ability: Trace
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Thunder Bolt/ Shadow Ball
- Trick
Psychic for STAB, Focus Blast for coverage. I use Thunderbolt because I need a revenge killer for Floatzel on my team (Trace copies Swift Swim) but Shadow Ball can be used to hit Ghosts and Psychics for Super Effective damage. However Haunter probably dies to psychic ( I haven't Tested this), Drifblim takes Super Effective damage from Thunderbolt and Trick cripples Duskclops so the only reason to run Shadow Ball is to hit Psychics. Trick is really a must on this set as it helps to take on stall teams and really screws over Shuckle which everyone knows is a pain to take down in Sandstorm.
Gardevoir's bulk, surprise factor and its ability, Trace really help this set. Trace means you can take on Floatzel in the rain as well as members on Sunny Day teams with Chlorophyll, many of which are weak to Psychic and also direct abilities back at their users, such as Water Absorb for Poliwrath allowing you to absorb Waterfalls and Ice Body from Wallrein allowing you to regain Hp as you beat Down them subs with Thunderbolt. Overall Gardevoir acts as a great user of choice scarf and can fit in well to any NU team, that is, if your not already using it for something else!
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Ev's: 6 Hp/252 Sp.Atk/ 252 Spd
Ability: Trace
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Thunder Bolt/ Shadow Ball
- Trick
Psychic for STAB, Focus Blast for coverage. I use Thunderbolt because I need a revenge killer for Floatzel on my team (Trace copies Swift Swim) but Shadow Ball can be used to hit Ghosts and Psychics for Super Effective damage. However Haunter probably dies to psychic ( I haven't Tested this), Drifblim takes Super Effective damage from Thunderbolt and Trick cripples Duskclops so the only reason to run Shadow Ball is to hit Psychics. Trick is really a must on this set as it helps to take on stall teams and really screws over Shuckle which everyone knows is a pain to take down in Sandstorm.
Gardevoir's bulk, surprise factor and its ability, Trace really help this set. Trace means you can take on Floatzel in the rain as well as members on Sunny Day teams with Chlorophyll, many of which are weak to Psychic and also direct abilities back at their users, such as Water Absorb for Poliwrath allowing you to absorb Waterfalls and Ice Body from Wallrein allowing you to regain Hp as you beat Down them subs with Thunderbolt. Overall Gardevoir acts as a great user of choice scarf and can fit in well to any NU team, that is, if your not already using it for something else!
This is extremely similar to the Endeavor set in the analysis. "Other Options" includes the idea of adding Toxic Spikes to the set for use as a starter. Protect is different, though, and does seem at first glance to help against Persian. Adamant Life Orb Persian does around 50% with STAB Technician Fake Out, and Return is an easy OHKO. With Endure, you'd be forced to switch, but this set lets you Protect turn 1, Endeavor turn 2 relying on Persian to attack.
This seems pretty transparent though, and the Persian player might just switch to a counter with 65 or less base HP, such as Flareon or Kadabra, on the predicted Endeavor. This would force you to switch, possibly give them a free Sub or Calm Mind (or whatever), and leave you with no hazards up. Endure would at least make it more feasible for you to bring out Beedrill later in the match and still do something, like revenge kill a bulky Rock type that he outspeeds.
I don't know why everyone thinks they can setup on my Meganium. All the time I switch Meganium in, I end up killing at least one pokemon.
Meganium (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 240 HP/252 Atk/16 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Return
- Seed Bomb
- Earthquake
Outrage and Earthquake covers basically everything IIRC. Seed Bomb is for STAB and Return just for filler.
Thoughts?
Meganium (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 240 HP/252 Atk/16 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Return
- Seed Bomb
- Earthquake
Outrage and Earthquake covers basically everything IIRC. Seed Bomb is for STAB and Return just for filler.
Thoughts?
the reason why they set up on meganium is mostly because meganium isn't used as an band sweeper but has more of a supporting job like setting up leech seed . that turn most other people use to set up their own stuff . personnally i run subseed + energy ball + synthesis or double screen on my meganium but your set is quite interesting . might use it once .
also lately i've been running an agility sweeper set on seadra with some mediocre results but i did manage to got a 4 kills in a row whit it .
also lately i've been running an agility sweeper set on seadra with some mediocre results but i did manage to got a 4 kills in a row whit it .
Victreebel can run this with a faster speed (Base 70 > Base 65), and the same (Base 100) special attack. The only difference is it's ability, and, ideally, a Scarfed pokemon shouldn't be statused. Victreebel also has overall better defensive stats. (50/45/80 for Roselia, 80/65/60 for Victreebel) Effectivly, Victreebel > Roselia in every way for the Scarf set. You can also change Sleep Powder for Sucker Punch, killing priority users.
I might work on an Analysis of Victreebel... it's complely missing my 'Mixtreebel' set... and I use him often enough to want to do it...
If anything, HP Ground > Leaf Blade on Victreebel. I've hardly ended up using Leaf Blade.
Plus if Overgrow kicks in Seed Bomb becomes basically a 180 (80 + 50% from STAB + 50% from Overgrow. Unless I'm calculating this wrong.) power move coming out of a 433 ATK.
I have played, and found that ninetails isn't as effective as I thought. Hypnosis's accuracy lets me down way too much, and ninetails doesn't have the defenses or typing to miss.
You don't have to run hypnosis for Ninetales to be good. Ninetales can be devastating if you get a nasty plot or two.
I currently run
Ninetales @ Leftovers
Timid
EV Spread: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Moveset:
-Nasty Plot
-Flamethrower
-Energy Ball
-Hidden Power Ground
Hidden Power Ground allows you to hit Entei which you can wall to an extent if it is running the CM set which definitely has potential to sweep. Whether Entei is running HP Ground or HP Grass is most likely a mystery. Hidden Power Ground also allows you to hit other Ninetales, Rapidash, and Flareon that resist Energy Ball and Flamethrower as well as hitting Rhydon, Aggron, and Probopass for x4 Damage, just as some examples.
Seviper@ Choice Scarf
252 SAtk/ 252 Speed/ 4 HP
Modest - Shed Skin
~ Dark Pulse
~ Giga Drain
~ Flamethrower
~ Hidden Power Ground
An elemental revenge killer you could say. I did some Damage calculations and found that it can defeat some big threats in NU. Such as Relicanth and Glaceon (after the speed tie)
I tested this in OU, it worked, but it was outclassed by Weavile and such.
A physical set can be used too. If anyone thinks this set has hope feel free to test the physical version.
252 SAtk/ 252 Speed/ 4 HP
Modest - Shed Skin
~ Dark Pulse
~ Giga Drain
~ Flamethrower
~ Hidden Power Ground
An elemental revenge killer you could say. I did some Damage calculations and found that it can defeat some big threats in NU. Such as Relicanth and Glaceon (after the speed tie)
I tested this in OU, it worked, but it was outclassed by Weavile and such.
A physical set can be used too. If anyone thinks this set has hope feel free to test the physical version.
- Status