I haven't played much of NU yet, but what are peoples thoughts on Ampharos? I'm currently using it in my team as a Specs wall breaker. With 90/75/90 defenses it can take some decent hits, and Static makes this better. 115 Special Attack is extremely high for NU also (5th in the tier I think). Just wondering what people think of it. It can't outspeed shit but it does hit hard.
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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
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Eh, there are not many noteable NU walls, and the only special one worth any salt, is Regice, although Craydily in the sand works too.
Neither of these are going to lose to a Specs Amph... unless you're packing something like HP Fire, even then, Thunderbolt hits Regice more or less as hard.
Neither of these are going to lose to a Specs Amph... unless you're packing something like HP Fire, even then, Thunderbolt hits Regice more or less as hard.
Focus Blast.
Focus Blast,while packing a lot of power,doesn't have reliable accuracy.Anyway,non-boosted Focus Blast is at best,a 2HKO on Regice with its base 200 Spl Def.
not to mention immunity to ground moves (eq and ep) and the fact it can set up with belly drum, SD, or DD. Also, unlike Charizard which can run so many sets... Mags is 90% of the time going to be choiced (scarf or specs) and run FB/OH, TB, FB, HP ice (on shoddy). In the sun it will carry solar beam too.
I am surprised gastrodon isn't used more... it can outright stop both of these guys most of the time. Even specs focus blast from mags isn't a 2hko to max spd/max hp gastrodon
but what will regice do to amphoros? toxic? twave an already slow poke? seismic toss?
Ampharos is a pretty cool pokemon to use with a little support because if you get a substitute set up, something is almost always going down. Little can take both a Thunderbolt and Focus Blast, and some of the stuff that can is handled by an appropriate Hidden Power. Its good at switching in on Bulky Waters and then denting Grass types, making it an effective breaker of the popular Fire - Water - Grass core.
I think Thunderbolt is being completely underestimated as a factor for Magmortar.
Charizard's Air Slash, Flying-typing, Roost, Speed, and whatever else are ALL less important than Magmortar's Thunderbolt imo. Thunderbolt is what makes Magmortar unstoppable, it can plow through literally every Pokemon, since everything that resists Fire is 1-2HKOed by Thunderbolt or HP Grass. There isn't even anything like Chansey that forces Magmortar to use Cross Chop.
Choice Scarf is an excellent set for this reason as well. What could possibly be 'not broken' about something that 1-2HKOes everything consistently and outpaces the whole metagame?
Hell, even spamming Fire Blast will win me the game sometimes, it's off of a base 125 SpA stat!
Medicham's strength is it's priority + it's Attack stat. Basically with Stealth Rock everything faster is beaten by Fake Out + Bullet Punch, and everything slower (minus a couple Pokemon) are 1-2HKOed by Brick Break or Zen Headbutt or ThunderPunch or Ice Punch (Zen Headbutt + one other move is my preference) including Pokemon such as Dusclops who takes around 90% from ZHB iirc.
Not saying they are both "absolutely broken", but they deserve to be suspects at least.
Charizard's Air Slash, Flying-typing, Roost, Speed, and whatever else are ALL less important than Magmortar's Thunderbolt imo. Thunderbolt is what makes Magmortar unstoppable, it can plow through literally every Pokemon, since everything that resists Fire is 1-2HKOed by Thunderbolt or HP Grass. There isn't even anything like Chansey that forces Magmortar to use Cross Chop.
Choice Scarf is an excellent set for this reason as well. What could possibly be 'not broken' about something that 1-2HKOes everything consistently and outpaces the whole metagame?
Hell, even spamming Fire Blast will win me the game sometimes, it's off of a base 125 SpA stat!
Medicham's strength is it's priority + it's Attack stat. Basically with Stealth Rock everything faster is beaten by Fake Out + Bullet Punch, and everything slower (minus a couple Pokemon) are 1-2HKOed by Brick Break or Zen Headbutt or ThunderPunch or Ice Punch (Zen Headbutt + one other move is my preference) including Pokemon such as Dusclops who takes around 90% from ZHB iirc.
Not saying they are both "absolutely broken", but they deserve to be suspects at least.
Well there's Munchlax, but not many people seem to like that guy, which is a shame because it was one of my favorite Pokes to use back when I played NU regularly. This is really a moot point though because Magmortar will be using a Fighting attack in the fourth slot, I mean what other good coverage does it have available? Maybe Earthquake for other Fire types like Flareon.
OK, there's Grumpig too, but Mag doesn't have anything on it besides, erm, Toxic or Faint Attack. It is massive Skuntank bait anyway.
I played a few NU games the other day, for the first time since August. Here's what I've found in the ~15ish games I played.
I agree that Munchlax is useful, especially against Haunter. I've been running Pursuit / Return / Earthquake with the last slot filler (usually Seed Bomb to keep Relicanth/Rhydon setting up, but Ice Punch is another possibility for Gligar/Drifblim), and it does manage to keep quite a few threats in check. It also can lure in Medicham and do a ton of damage with Return to keep it from sweeping.
Poliwrath is my least favorite NU addition, because Sharpedo was once an excellent wall-breaker with strong priority, and now it's completely stopped by Poliwrath. Defensive Luxray stops it, but it still walls enough of my team to be a nuisance.
Tangrowth leaving has left gaping holes in some of my favorite teams, and Leafeon doesn't replace it that well in most of them.
I've been trying some weird stuff, like lead Lunatone. Max HP/Def Bold, with a moveset of Stealth Rock/Psychic/Ice Beam/Hypnosis. Even with its shit HP and Defense, it is surprisingly bulky. For example, it is 4-5HKOed by Tauros' CB Return, and Kangaskhan's Sucker Punch is only a 3-4HKO. It matches up especially well against the always popular lead Gligar and Persian. Persian only does about 20-25% on average with Fake Out followed by U-turn, and Psychic 2HKOs it even without investment. If it Taunts, I can hit it decently hard before it switches, and if it U-turns right away I get Rocks up. Most Gligar are always OHKOed by Ice Beam and is completely walled by Lunatone. Whatever can't be dealt with directly is put to sleep. Unfortunately, though, being a Lunatone, it matches up poorly against some leads, especially Pinsir and Relicanth, who hit hard with their STAB attacks despite Defense investment.
I agree that Munchlax is useful, especially against Haunter. I've been running Pursuit / Return / Earthquake with the last slot filler (usually Seed Bomb to keep Relicanth/Rhydon setting up, but Ice Punch is another possibility for Gligar/Drifblim), and it does manage to keep quite a few threats in check. It also can lure in Medicham and do a ton of damage with Return to keep it from sweeping.
Poliwrath is my least favorite NU addition, because Sharpedo was once an excellent wall-breaker with strong priority, and now it's completely stopped by Poliwrath. Defensive Luxray stops it, but it still walls enough of my team to be a nuisance.
Tangrowth leaving has left gaping holes in some of my favorite teams, and Leafeon doesn't replace it that well in most of them.
I've been trying some weird stuff, like lead Lunatone. Max HP/Def Bold, with a moveset of Stealth Rock/Psychic/Ice Beam/Hypnosis. Even with its shit HP and Defense, it is surprisingly bulky. For example, it is 4-5HKOed by Tauros' CB Return, and Kangaskhan's Sucker Punch is only a 3-4HKO. It matches up especially well against the always popular lead Gligar and Persian. Persian only does about 20-25% on average with Fake Out followed by U-turn, and Psychic 2HKOs it even without investment. If it Taunts, I can hit it decently hard before it switches, and if it U-turns right away I get Rocks up. Most Gligar are always OHKOed by Ice Beam and is completely walled by Lunatone. Whatever can't be dealt with directly is put to sleep. Unfortunately, though, being a Lunatone, it matches up poorly against some leads, especially Pinsir and Relicanth, who hit hard with their STAB attacks despite Defense investment.
What would be some good IV for a suppoter/Status Pelliper. I thought31 IV in speed and Hp would suffice.
In NU, Exeggutor is great to stop Scarf/Banded Medicham, put something to sleep, and then throwing Psychics and Leaf Storms off with its base 125 sp.atk (same as Magmortar). Also walls Poliwrath, Quagsire and Gastrodon. It can serve as a sweeper with Sunny Day/Solarbeam/Psychic/HP Fire or Rock.
A good mix of "wall" and a potent attacker.
Ampharos is pretty much the same, but without many resists and not the same sp.def, but bullkier and unforgiving as well.
I also would like to say that Muk owns. It's pretty sturdy, and has a great HP to make a Curse set. The Snorlax of NU, for sure.
And finally:
Floatzel here is frightening. Only real wall to it is Leafeon. It has its great speed which it's the fastest one in NU tied with Persian. A good attack of 105 also speaks a lot about Floatzel. Dunno why this one isn't UU.
A good mix of "wall" and a potent attacker.
Ampharos is pretty much the same, but without many resists and not the same sp.def, but bullkier and unforgiving as well.
I also would like to say that Muk owns. It's pretty sturdy, and has a great HP to make a Curse set. The Snorlax of NU, for sure.
And finally:
Floatzel here is frightening. Only real wall to it is Leafeon. It has its great speed which it's the fastest one in NU tied with Persian. A good attack of 105 also speaks a lot about Floatzel. Dunno why this one isn't UU.
Leafeon cant wall it. Ice Beam. It has decent enough special attack (85) and has a diverse enough move pool to go mixed well.
I didnt even know NU was still alive. i figured it died with the server. this is great!
I'd just like to let you to know, M BLADE, that Floatzel is no where near a to-threatening-to-be-NU Pokemon. Floatzel is very simple to handle, despite its high offensive stats. There are a huge range of Pokemon that can survive its attacks and dispose of/cripple it with ease. Here are a few examples:
Poliwrath can switch right into Waterfall, Brick Break, Crunch, or Ice Punch and set up a Substitute successfully, thanks to its decent overall bulk. From there, Floatzel falls under a solid OHKO by Poliwrath's Focus Punch. If Floatzel wants to set up Bulk Up, it would then be hit by Encore, forcing it to switch out. Substitute / Encore / Waterfall / Focus Punch is the most common Polwirath set in NU and can defeat Floatzel with ease.
Dusclops walls Floatzel entirely. With its grand Defense and access to Will-O-Wisp, Floatzel will be in a tough spot. If Floatzel happens to carry Taunt to block Will-O-Wisp, it might have a chance to come out on top, depending on what moveset Dusclops is carrying. Sableye works nearly the same way, having Will-O-Wisp and Recover, except its a bit weaker on the defensive side than Dusclops and can't function well with Taunt.
Regigigas is another excellent switch-in to Floatzel. With its great defenses, it can survive a few Brick Breaks and threaten to cripple Floatzel with Thunder Wave, making it close to useless. After that, Regigigas can use Confuse Ray to get the parafusion combo, set up a Substitute once Floatzel hits itself in confusion or is paralyzed, and spam Return.
Slowking is probably the #1 counter to Floatzel. It packs excellent bulk, great defensive typing, and has access to Thunder Wave/Toxic and Slack Off. Crunch doesn't have the power to 2HKO Slowking, while Slowking can finish off Floatzel with repeated Psychics.
Like you said, Leafeon beats Floatzel all the time, as it has wonderful physical bulk and a STAB super effective Leaf Blade. Don't forget about Synthesis or Wish/Protect and Swords Dance, since Leafeon can set up Swords Dance pretty well against Floatzel, even if it carries Ice Punch. Vileplume is also like Leafeon, except it's played a bit differently. It too has great bulk, access to Energy Ball, and several support moves.
I'm pretty sure there are more Pokemon I can name that deal with Floatzel, but those are just the big ones that I know and have used.
EDIT: sunkirby, Floatzel can use Ice Beam against Leafeon, but Ice Beam is generally uncommon on Floatzel. Floatzel isn't normally seen as a mixed attacker in general, and even if it does go mixed, then its physical moves become more weaker as it needs significant EV investment to deal respectable damage, which it can't afford to let happen.
Poliwrath can switch right into Waterfall, Brick Break, Crunch, or Ice Punch and set up a Substitute successfully, thanks to its decent overall bulk. From there, Floatzel falls under a solid OHKO by Poliwrath's Focus Punch. If Floatzel wants to set up Bulk Up, it would then be hit by Encore, forcing it to switch out. Substitute / Encore / Waterfall / Focus Punch is the most common Polwirath set in NU and can defeat Floatzel with ease.
Dusclops walls Floatzel entirely. With its grand Defense and access to Will-O-Wisp, Floatzel will be in a tough spot. If Floatzel happens to carry Taunt to block Will-O-Wisp, it might have a chance to come out on top, depending on what moveset Dusclops is carrying. Sableye works nearly the same way, having Will-O-Wisp and Recover, except its a bit weaker on the defensive side than Dusclops and can't function well with Taunt.
Regigigas is another excellent switch-in to Floatzel. With its great defenses, it can survive a few Brick Breaks and threaten to cripple Floatzel with Thunder Wave, making it close to useless. After that, Regigigas can use Confuse Ray to get the parafusion combo, set up a Substitute once Floatzel hits itself in confusion or is paralyzed, and spam Return.
Slowking is probably the #1 counter to Floatzel. It packs excellent bulk, great defensive typing, and has access to Thunder Wave/Toxic and Slack Off. Crunch doesn't have the power to 2HKO Slowking, while Slowking can finish off Floatzel with repeated Psychics.
Like you said, Leafeon beats Floatzel all the time, as it has wonderful physical bulk and a STAB super effective Leaf Blade. Don't forget about Synthesis or Wish/Protect and Swords Dance, since Leafeon can set up Swords Dance pretty well against Floatzel, even if it carries Ice Punch. Vileplume is also like Leafeon, except it's played a bit differently. It too has great bulk, access to Energy Ball, and several support moves.
I'm pretty sure there are more Pokemon I can name that deal with Floatzel, but those are just the big ones that I know and have used.
EDIT: sunkirby, Floatzel can use Ice Beam against Leafeon, but Ice Beam is generally uncommon on Floatzel. Floatzel isn't normally seen as a mixed attacker in general, and even if it does go mixed, then its physical moves become more weaker as it needs significant EV investment to deal respectable damage, which it can't afford to let happen.
As an avid Floatzel user, I can assure you, anything that can survive an attack, will probobly OHKO back with the attacking stats in NU.
Poliwrath, as mentioned, is a great counter to Floatzel. Gastrodon and Quagsire are also great counters, although, the latter more than the former.
Amphoros is capable of takeing a hit, and then OHKO'ing back.
Most NU Grass-types beat Floatzel. Most Floatzel are physical, and even fewer of the mixed/special ones run Ice Beam. Even Cherrim would probobly beat Floatzel.
Noteable Scarfers can defeat Floatzel, as who would run a Scarf on a Base 115, the fastest thing in the teir? Magmortar Thunderbolts Floatzel to death, Primape can Close Combat it. However, if Floatzel is being ran in a Rain Team, Scarfers have no hope, as NOTHING outruns Floatzel in the rain... unless you're running a Scarfed Swift Swimmer. 0_o
Medicham's priority moves also prove useful. Skuntank is a good stop to Aqua-Jet lacking sets.
Porygon2, with it's defences that hold out even in OU, and Thunderbolt, destroys Floatzel. Lacking that, Thunder Wave would do so... as would Tri Attack.
Dusclops is also a decent counter, although, it dislikes Crunch. It will be KO'ed by Floatzel if it's Crunched on the switch-in, then Crunched again on Will-O. Regardless of it hitting, the Third Crunch will KO. SlowKing is a even more shaky counter, also due to it's Crunch weakness, but it lacks Will-O-Wisp, although Slack Off helps greatly.
Faceing down Floatzel in the Rain, however, is not a good idea. As mentioned before, you have NO HOPE of outspeeding a Floatzel in the Rain. WaterFall also has Double STAB, which makes most of the aformentioned counters...not counters. Things get even more hairy if it's packing Bulk Up. If Floatzel's in the rain, and Bulks Up on a switch (Expects a Quagsire, or Poliwrath, for example), things will be VERY nasty, as +1 Crunches/Brick Breaks/Insert Coverage Move Here will damage even these guys... while Floatzel might survive, due to increased defence.
With Rain Support, a Floatzel set like this:
Floatzel @ Life Orb
252 Attack, 0 Speed [NOT NEEDED], 252 HP, 4 DEF [EV's may need tweaking]
Adamant Nature
WaterFall
Bulk Up
Brick Break
Crunch
Very few things can stand in it's way. Switching to a counter risks Bulk Up. Nothing's gonna outspeed it, even with 0 Speed. Your best bet is to somehow stall it out of the rain, when it slows down, becomes vunerable to Scarfers, and Waterfall weakens.
Poliwrath, as mentioned, is a great counter to Floatzel. Gastrodon and Quagsire are also great counters, although, the latter more than the former.
Amphoros is capable of takeing a hit, and then OHKO'ing back.
Most NU Grass-types beat Floatzel. Most Floatzel are physical, and even fewer of the mixed/special ones run Ice Beam. Even Cherrim would probobly beat Floatzel.
Noteable Scarfers can defeat Floatzel, as who would run a Scarf on a Base 115, the fastest thing in the teir? Magmortar Thunderbolts Floatzel to death, Primape can Close Combat it. However, if Floatzel is being ran in a Rain Team, Scarfers have no hope, as NOTHING outruns Floatzel in the rain... unless you're running a Scarfed Swift Swimmer. 0_o
Medicham's priority moves also prove useful. Skuntank is a good stop to Aqua-Jet lacking sets.
Porygon2, with it's defences that hold out even in OU, and Thunderbolt, destroys Floatzel. Lacking that, Thunder Wave would do so... as would Tri Attack.
Dusclops is also a decent counter, although, it dislikes Crunch. It will be KO'ed by Floatzel if it's Crunched on the switch-in, then Crunched again on Will-O. Regardless of it hitting, the Third Crunch will KO. SlowKing is a even more shaky counter, also due to it's Crunch weakness, but it lacks Will-O-Wisp, although Slack Off helps greatly.
Faceing down Floatzel in the Rain, however, is not a good idea. As mentioned before, you have NO HOPE of outspeeding a Floatzel in the Rain. WaterFall also has Double STAB, which makes most of the aformentioned counters...not counters. Things get even more hairy if it's packing Bulk Up. If Floatzel's in the rain, and Bulks Up on a switch (Expects a Quagsire, or Poliwrath, for example), things will be VERY nasty, as +1 Crunches/Brick Breaks/Insert Coverage Move Here will damage even these guys... while Floatzel might survive, due to increased defence.
With Rain Support, a Floatzel set like this:
Floatzel @ Life Orb
252 Attack, 0 Speed [NOT NEEDED], 252 HP, 4 DEF [EV's may need tweaking]
Adamant Nature
WaterFall
Bulk Up
Brick Break
Crunch
Very few things can stand in it's way. Switching to a counter risks Bulk Up. Nothing's gonna outspeed it, even with 0 Speed. Your best bet is to somehow stall it out of the rain, when it slows down, becomes vunerable to Scarfers, and Waterfall weakens.
It should be mentioned that Floatzel has the option of Low Kick over Brick Break, which can hit Poliwrath and Quagsire a bit harder, as well as easily outdamage a Rain boosted Waterfall against the likes of Regigigas, Lickilicky, Regice, Cloyster, Lapras and Walrein.
Although you then can't guarantee a 2HKO against Bibarel, which may be one of the reasons it doesn't get used. I can't think of any other reason anyway.
Although you then can't guarantee a 2HKO against Bibarel, which may be one of the reasons it doesn't get used. I can't think of any other reason anyway.
He was only making an example; his point was that many easy and common walls can wall Floatzel.
This is a surprise Floatzel set. I've been using it to bait counters and defeat them at the very least:
Floatzel@Life Orb
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
EVs: 252 Atk, 36 SAtk, 212 Spd
- Hidden Power Grass
- Aqua Jet
- Ice Punch
- Taunt
EV's allow to OHKO 252/0 Quagsire after Stealth Rock, and full ATK for most power. Taunt gets rid of a bunch of its counters, including Fuzznip's Dusclops, Sableye, Regigigas and other "walls," like Regice. HP Grass 2HKO's Poliwrath and 3HKO's Slowking while Taunt destroys doesn't let it Slack Off, and Aqua Jet allows for revenge killing pokes such as Scarfed Magmortar and DD'd Charizard, obviously. Unfortunately, the lack of a strong STAB move, aka Waterfall, kind of hurts it, so it cannot really sweep.
Water types seem to be easier to deal with through a Fire type wallbreaker or something, so I think Ice Punch should probably be a primary option on Floatzel to get through bulky grass types. Mostly the reason Floatzel can sweep is because of speed not power, so getting it in late game is probably the best course of action when the really bulky pokemon that can wall Floatzel have been weakened or removed
The problem again is that it is relying on pure prediction to sweep because almost all of them have a choice items. It comes in, might lose 25% to SR or other entry hazards, and then its a guessing game. Do you use fire blast to hit the switchin hard with stab? do you tbolt to hit the water type coming in? do you hp grass to hit the gastrodons/quags/ect of the world? Or do you focus blast instead?
I used Floatzel with Sub/Bulk Up. Easier to deal with counters.(for example, it avoids Will-o-Wisp from Dusclops, or Sucker Punch from Skuntank)
Many counters for Floatzel falls to one poke i mentioned in the post: Exeggutor.
Poliwrrath, Quagsire etc are all handled by Exeggutor just fine, making a great partner to Floatzel(not Skuntank).
Many counters for Floatzel falls to one poke i mentioned in the post: Exeggutor.
Poliwrrath, Quagsire etc are all handled by Exeggutor just fine, making a great partner to Floatzel(not Skuntank).
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