I was thinking of using Primeape. I really think he deserves better than the NU tier. So much wasted potential...
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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
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I think Leafeon is not bad a partner to Floatzel either. They resist each others' weaknesses well, i.e. Electric/Ice, and Leafeon can wall some of the Physical attacks thrown at Floatzel. Also, Leafeon can remove Fire types that can end Leafeon's sweep.
It may seem like Sableye is a poor Pokemon in general, but it has its uses in the NU metagame.
Sableye is a very reliable Rapid Spin blocker on stall-oriented teams. Since it has no weaknesses at all and has access to Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and the ever so useful Recover, Sableye makes a pretty neat defensive Pokemon. It's sometimes challenged by Dusclops, because Dusclops is just as good. The only main differences that make people take Sableye into consideration is because of Taunt and Recover, two excellent moves for a Rapid Spin blocker. It also takes on Medicham with extreme ease, being immune to both of its STAB attacks.
The most common Sableye set I've seen looks something like this:
Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Will-o-wisp
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
I use Sableye on my own NU stall team and it's not as bad as you may think.
leafeon isn't a bad partner for any poke in NU lol. It is just a monster in NU
most people run SD... but I have had much better success giving it a choice band and letting it just smash things. stab banded leaf blade off that attack hurts.
Yeah, i have to agree with heysup. However walls such as grumpig, lickilicky and hypno can take a fireblast/overheat and then stall out the mere 8 pp of fireblast. However if your facing an offensive or balanced team (or a team without those three) then the thing is dangerous, especially the scarf set.
Hi, im new to this NU environment, but i need something answered. What's the best NU counter to zapdos? Dont ask me why, just tell me the best way you can. Thank you so much.
First of all Zapdos isn't in NU and if it was it would probably be banned pretty qiockly. I don't think a single Pokemon could stop Zapdos since it would power its way through the entire tier, at best they could stall/wall him, but can't do anything in return.
After a Swords Dance, what can any of them do back in return? Yeah, Lickilicky can Explode, but the others can't really do much back to Charizard. Flare Blitz, anyone?
Ok, first of all, i know zapdos isnt NU. The reason why i needed an asnwer is im in a 32 man tournament. It's a NU tournament that allows 1 OU pokemon, and my opponent has zapdos. THAT"S why i asked what can handle zapdos in the NU enviroment. Now, will someone with sense tell me what can handle zapdos.
Thanks.
Quagshire can wall almost everything Zapdos can throw at it, unless it carries Hidden Power Grass. Ampharos is another good one due to good defenses and it resists Thunderbolt, you have the option of using Light Screen too, which could support the rest of your team. You could use Regice but its weakness to Heat Wave and Stealth Rock may put you off.
Try Camerupt, since it takes shit all from Hidden Power Ice or Grass and resists Heat Wave, while also being immune to Thunderbolt.
slowking is no medicham counter. but defensive leafeon is. anyway here is my slowking set
Slowking (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP/252 SDef/4 SpA
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Slack Off
- Surf
- Thunder Wave
- Signal Beam
im considering replacing t-wave with calm mind and adding defense EVs. providing a "croking" set. anyways here is are some important calcs
scarf magmortars t-bolt 38.1% - 45.2%
+1 DD LO zard t-punch 72.6% - 85.8% ouch... of course slowking OKOs back after SR.
With Slowking i rather use a Curse set since it helps taking attacks from the physical side while still having its good sp.wall properties. It also means CB Medicham with Thunderpunch won't 2HKO after... 2 Curses more or less? It can take Charizard and Magmortar just like ever.
It still has problems with Leafeon though. But with Slowking, i think that Curse is better than Calm Mind.
It still has problems with Leafeon though. But with Slowking, i think that Curse is better than Calm Mind.
I fail to see how Slowking doesn't qualify as a reliable counter to Medicham, when Leafeon does.
Here are some reasons why Slowking is still one of the best switch-ins to Medicham:
1) Slowking's typing, Water/Psychic, allows it to be resistant to both of Medicham's STAB attacks, along with Bullet Punch and Ice Punch.
2) Slowking has great defensive stats. Base 95 HP and 80 Def is definitely not to be overlooked at all. It's typing helps it further increase its physical durability as well.
3) Slowking has instant recover in Slack Off to keep coming into Medicham.
4) Having access to Thunder Wave helps compensate for its poor Speed, makes Medicham more easily revenge-killed, and helps the entire team in general.
5) It has the ability to set up multiple Curses (or Calm Minds) in the face of Medicham, making it much more difficult to take down.
Those 5 reasons (all I can think of right now) make Slowking a wonderful switch-in to Medicham. Even though it may take some heavy damage by ThunderPunch from max Attack Adamant Life Orb Medicham (62.44% - 73.60% vs 252 HP / 212 Def Bold Slowking), it still survives and can Thunder Wave it or use Surf depending on the situation it's in. I'm not exactly sure if Medicham runs Adamant, as it's considerably slow if it does, so here's a damage calculation with a Jolly nature: 57.36% - 67.51%.
You can't just forget about Slowking countering Medicham "because it can ThunderPunch it for the 2HKO", because what happens when Leafeon is up against Ice Punch?
Let's take a look at some Ice Punch damage calculations:
252 Atk Jolly Life Orb Medicham vs 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Leafeon: 47.31% - 55.69%
With an Adamant nature: 50.90% - 60.48%
There you have it. Now Leafeon can't counter Medicham because it's 2HKOed by Ice Punch! For that reason, saying that Slowking is 2HKOed by ThunderPunch is not a valid argument when comparing it to Leafeon. Ice Punch is more used than ThunderPunch as well, since Ice Punch stands at 57.3, while ThunderPunch is standing at 38.5 (taking from Nov. statistics). Also, Leafeon does not resist any of Medicham's STAB moves, so it makes it a lot harder for it to switch in. More damage calculations:
252 Atk Jolly Life Orb Medicham using Zen Headbutt vs 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Leafeon: 37.13% - 44.01%
With an Adamant nature: 40.42% - 47.90%
Using Brick Break with a Jolly nature: 35.33% - 41.62%
With an Adamant nature: 38.02% - 45.21%
Slowking is just as good, if not better, than Leafeon at countering Medicham.
I wanted to show little wall-breaking Dragonair set. I used it with solid success in UU (for example it OHKOes physically defensive Hariyama with Draco Meteor when SR is up, ES + Draco Meteor is sure kill or it 2OHKOes Registeel with Fire Blast with SR up and one set of spikes). However NU is a place where is should land and with some team support may be quite deadly.
Dragonair @ Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 166 Atk / 92 Spe / 252 SpA
Nature: Mild
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- ExtremeSpeed / HP Ground / Dragon Pulse
Good coverage of Fire/Dragon, which is unresisted in NU and high power of dragon-type moves makes it more powerfull then it looks at first. EVs are quite obvious - Maximum SpA for maximum damage from moves like Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, which makes them as strong as possible. Putting EVs in special attack is better option, as Dragonair has much worse physical movepool to work with. 92 Speed EVs are enough to outspeed minimum speed Grumpig, but if you think you don't need that much speed EVs, you may just add them to physical attack. The rest of them went to Attack to power-up Outrage. Combination of Draco Meteor + Outrage 2OHKOes most pokemon in NU. For example Slowking takes 38.54% - 45.57% from Draco Meteor and 54.95% - 64.84% from Outrage, which give you really solid chance for 2OHKO with SR up. This Dragonair has problems with Bastiodon and Probopass and that's why HP Ground is viable option to choose, if you feel that you don't need Extremespeed. Dragon Pulse is also solid option for STAB, if you don't want to lock yourself (Outrage) or have special attack drop with Draco Meteor, however power of it may be a bit low. I recommend to give this Dragonair a bit of paralysis support to do his job perfectly. Anyway if someone want to try it - go on ;).
Dragonair @ Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 166 Atk / 92 Spe / 252 SpA
Nature: Mild
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- ExtremeSpeed / HP Ground / Dragon Pulse
Good coverage of Fire/Dragon, which is unresisted in NU and high power of dragon-type moves makes it more powerfull then it looks at first. EVs are quite obvious - Maximum SpA for maximum damage from moves like Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, which makes them as strong as possible. Putting EVs in special attack is better option, as Dragonair has much worse physical movepool to work with. 92 Speed EVs are enough to outspeed minimum speed Grumpig, but if you think you don't need that much speed EVs, you may just add them to physical attack. The rest of them went to Attack to power-up Outrage. Combination of Draco Meteor + Outrage 2OHKOes most pokemon in NU. For example Slowking takes 38.54% - 45.57% from Draco Meteor and 54.95% - 64.84% from Outrage, which give you really solid chance for 2OHKO with SR up. This Dragonair has problems with Bastiodon and Probopass and that's why HP Ground is viable option to choose, if you feel that you don't need Extremespeed. Dragon Pulse is also solid option for STAB, if you don't want to lock yourself (Outrage) or have special attack drop with Draco Meteor, however power of it may be a bit low. I recommend to give this Dragonair a bit of paralysis support to do his job perfectly. Anyway if someone want to try it - go on ;).
Fuzznip, when Slowking starts investing in physical defense it really becomes essentially a 'gimmick' (a really good one though, I'll admit, but a gimmick nonetheless). For example, without those SpD EVs, it is easily beaten by important attacks such as Scaf Magmortar's Thunderbolt and Scarf Haunter's Shadow Ball. These are two Pokemon it can simply not afford to lose against in my opinion. Leafeon makes a better physical wall for obvious reasons, and Ice Punch isn't very effective on Medicham imo anyway, I'd rather use dual STAB, or STAB + ThunderPunch.
Investing in Defense for Slowking is not a gimmick. Slowking's excellent typing gives it so many resistances to common physical attacks, so I don't see how investing in Defense to make Slowking a fantastic physical wall a gimmick. It could take on Pokemon like Ursaring, Primeape, the aforementioned Medicham, Zangoose, Dodrio, Floatzel, etc. I don't really care if you think Ice Punch is not worth it on Medicham, the statistics agree with me.
Just because Slowking doesn't invest heavily in its Special Defense, it doesn't make it worthless on the special side immediately. I use a spread of 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 SpD with a Bold nature and it still takes on special sweepers like a champ. It does have a solid Special Defense stat already, so I didn't want to invest into it more when going physically defensive is definitely worth it.
Taking your examples of Scarf Haunter and Magmortar, let's see some damage calculations with the EV spread I use and a 252 HP / 212 SpD Calm spread.
252 SpA Timid Haunter using Shadow Ball vs 252 HP / 212 SpD Bold Slowking: 53.81% - 63.96%
252 SpA Timid Magmortar using Thunderbolt vs 252 HP / 212 SpD Bold Slowking: 45.69% - 53.81%
Now the other spread.
Same Haunter using Shadow Ball vs 252 HP / 212 SpD Calm Slowking: 42.64% - 50.76%
Same Magmortar using Thunderbolt vs 252 HP / 212 SpD Calm Slowking: 36.04% - 42.64%
No matter what EV spread you choose, Scarf Haunter's Shadow Ball will always 2HKO with Stealth Rock in play. As for Magmortar, my spread will fall under a 2HKO with Stealth Rock in play, while the 252 HP / 212 SpD Calm Slowking will not. However, considering the amount of SpD investment the second spread has, a 252 HP / 212 Def Bold spread can still handle a variety of special attacks and can survive many super effective ones.
Slowking is one of the best physical walls in NU and should not be referred to as a "gimmick" when handled like that.
There really is no way of telling that people are using Life Orb + Ice Punch at all. I don't doubt Ice Punch is popular on the Choice Scarf set, but the Life Orb set seems a little silly to me. Especially since you can run HJK to get the same BP as Ice Punch, if you really want. Logically, people wouldn't run it on Medicham unless they have 4 moveslots.
Fuzznip said:
There is a reason Slowbro still runs max Defense even though it has a high Defense stat without investment: it takes on the most dangerous physical sweepers in the metagame, and investing in Special Defense doesn't really do much as most special sweepers would be able to plow through anyway.
This is quite similar, as Slowbro needs to run some SpD to reliably beat Blaziken and Moltres, two prominent threats. It really comes down to this: Does gaining the ability to counter a couple special threats (Moltres, Blaziken) outweigh losing the ability to take on many of the physical attackers (Gallade, Swellow, Rhyperior, Donphan, etc, etc). In Slowking's case, it is simply this trade: You can sometimes take on Medicham, but you now lose to many of the other prominent threats, while other physical attackers will still blow by you.
Fuzznip said:
Can I ask why it isn't using 212 HP / 252 SpD Calm or even 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm? Your spread makes it seem like the calculations aren't really different.
Fuzznip said:
Let me see my / other people's Slowking spread:
Same Haunter using Shadow Ball vs 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Slowking: 41.6% - 49.2%
Same Magmortar using Thunderbolt vs 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Slowking: 34.5% - 41.1%
As you can see, quite the difference 40 SpD makes.
Fuzznip said:
Slowking losing to Scarf Haunter and Scarf Magmortar is like Slowbro losing to Scarf Gallade or Swellow. It should not happen! Otherwise you are better off using Milotic over Slowbro, or in this case you are probably better off using something like Leafeon, Quagsire, etc.
I'm not saying Defense Slowking is bad, I am merely stating that Defense Slowking will maybe work once or twice against random Pokemon, and a couple times against Medicham. After that, the opponent will just smash it to bits with one of the strong Special Attackers in the tier. That sounds like a gimmick to me ^_^
I use a max Defense Slowking in NU. Well I actually started off with a more special defensive spread, but it didn't take much playtesting to realize that that was a mistake and quickly reverted. What Fuzznip said is right, Slowking can take on so many of the strong Normal / Fighting physical Pokemon with a bulky spread, as well as several other Pokemon like RP Rhydon / Armaldo, DD Lapras, Muk, Relicanth etc. Even Pokemon like Pinsir and most Skuntank can be pseudo-checked when they come in and try to kill you, whereas a no Defense Slowking would risk dying horribly every time.
For some of the more potent special threats that Slowking can 'semi'-counter, I just go to Munchlax, who deals with most of these Pokemon much better than Slowking ever could anyway, as well as things like Manectric and Venomoth that Slowking doesn't like regardless. Defensive Slowking + Munchlax makes for a fine wall combo in my experience.
So yeah, max Defense Slowking is no gimmick, it is in fact one of the most reliable builds you can get, being able to act as a cross between Slowbro and Milotic in a weaker NU metagame.
For some of the more potent special threats that Slowking can 'semi'-counter, I just go to Munchlax, who deals with most of these Pokemon much better than Slowking ever could anyway, as well as things like Manectric and Venomoth that Slowking doesn't like regardless. Defensive Slowking + Munchlax makes for a fine wall combo in my experience.
So yeah, max Defense Slowking is no gimmick, it is in fact one of the most reliable builds you can get, being able to act as a cross between Slowbro and Milotic in a weaker NU metagame.
Leafeon would function better, since you are going to lose pretty horribly to most of the phyiscal attackers still (Relicanth, Rhydon, etc) and EVERY Grass type. Leafeon would really make a much better choice.
Slowking with max Defense can be good, but it isn't worth gimping your core for. It is great for teams who have lots of trouble with Medicham, but that's really it.
Problems with Leafeon:
- Awful special defense, meaning that it can’t reliably take strong special Water attacks among other things. Also means that it is vulnerable to the odd special attack from Pokemon it is called upon to wall, such as Dragon Dance Lapras and Sharpedo
- Many strong Fire types (Flareon, Entei, Charizard, Camerupt and Rapidash to name a few) often go at least partly physical, and Leafeon has no chance of even sponging a hit from any of them. Slowking can take at least one super-effective hit from any of them, if not wall completely, and retaliate hard.
- Leafeon struggles badly against most weather barring Sand. Rain, Sun and Hail teams plough through it, whereas Slowking checks Rain and Hail quite well, and can at least contain the odd Pokemon in the sun.
- No access to Thunder Wave or Trick Room, making it hard to slow down fast offense. Defensive Leafeon has to invest mainly in defenses to perform its job, so its high base speed goes largely to waste against these threats.
- No Fighting resist, which is the most important team cover that Munchlax needs. It’s not just Medicham, Banded Close Combats from the likes of Hitmonchan and Primeape can comfortably 2HKO Leafeon, but not Slowking. Even when not choiced, the latter can dispatch you promptly with Overheat.
- No reliably strong attack to hit Pinsir, Skuntank and friends, common physical threats that Slowking can at least deter somewhat. Also loses to Muk and Qwilfish, two Pokemon that Slowking can beat easily.
Those are the main drawbacks with Leafeon, but of course it has many good unique defensive attributes like Wish / Cleric support and PHazing, which is why I have used it several times in the past as part of a defensive core. But Slowking replacement it is not. As you would say, it is not worth gimping my core for like that.
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