• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Floatzel is stll the best lead I have using in NU. very fast taunt, hits hard + priority is very nice for my team at least. I give it a sash because it can be frail but it seems to live and cause havoc for teams outside the lead spot as well. So I tend to not sacrifice it at the very beginning if possible.

4th move is either ice punch or crunch... i see a lot of slowking switch ins and crunch seems to scare them back out. plus ice punch is really only useful against grass switch ins and grass switch ins just allow zard, mags, tyhlosion, ect to switch in with ease


It also owns standard rain dance electrode. It gets up rain dance and if it stays in it dies. waterfall does min 70% and aqua jet does min 35%. Then rain teams have to deal with a max speed max attack floatzel with a sash in the rain.
 
dbcb said:
Floatzel is stll the best lead I have using in NU. very fast taunt, hits hard + priority is very nice for my team at least. I give it a sash because it can be frail but it seems to live and cause havoc for teams outside the lead spot as well. So I tend to not sacrifice it at the very beginning if possible.

4th move is either ice punch or crunch... i see a lot of slowking switch ins and crunch seems to scare them back out. plus ice punch is really only useful against grass switch ins and grass switch ins just allow zard, mags, tyhlosion, ect to switch in with ease


It also owns standard rain dance electrode. It gets up rain dance and if it stays in it dies. waterfall does min 70% and aqua jet does min 35%. Then rain teams have to deal with a max speed max attack floatzel with a sash in the rain.
Click to expand...
i havent thought of floatzel as a lead, but now that i think about it, it could be an amzing lead, having taunt+priority would be really helpful.
 
Yeah, Floatzel is a pretty good lead. It has real problems with fast Sashbreakers like Persian, though, and loses to Pluff. Stuff like Primeape can U-Turn off Floatzel to something that can take a hit. Miltank just rips Floatzel to shreds - you can't hit it for much damage and you have to waste a turn taunting it lest it start setting up Milk Drinks and Curses on you.

Floatzel doesn't cope too well with Sandslash either, as it fails to ever 2HKO Leftovers variants when Jolly, and almost never when Adamant. Even Lum variants avoid the 2HKO more often than not if Floatzel is Jolly. Slash can 2HKO with EQ, or set up Rocks and shave a significant chunk off of Floatzel before it dies.
 
EQ/X-Scizor get better coverage of leads that CC/X-Scizor, I think...

And Floatsel is a good lead, that I can attest to. But it is shut down lock, stock, and barrel when Lapras switches in.
 
Mattman324 said:
EQ/X-Scizor get better coverage of leads that CC/X-Scizor, I think...

And Floatsel is a good lead, that I can attest to. But it is shut down lock, stock, and barrel when Lapras switches in.
Click to expand...

does floatzel learn superpower?
that would be a way to handle lapras.
 
How much can Floatzel hit Lapras for with, say, Crunch? As long as it can break its Subs and hopefully threaten a 3HKO, it can do enough damage to DD Lapras that you can then revenge it with a fast Scarfer, like Primeape. Most +2 Lapras are outsped.

Relicanth is a massive problem for Floatzel as well, because it shrugs off neutral Physical hits and pounds the Rubber-Ringed One into the ground with STAB Head Smash. Plus, if you didn't bother wasting a turn Taunting it, it can set up SR.
 
low kick probably would be able to put a dent in relicanth as well, and I for one, am not opposed to mixed hp grass floatzel, maybe i should be though, ill go have a look at floatzel.
 
It could work, but splitting EVs would suck and having to have a -SpD nature would make Floatzie even more frail...

Just ran some calcs. Non-STAB Low Kick does pathetic damage to Relicanth, as it only has 40 Base Power. HP Grass doesn't even OHKO max/min Reli, and only 2HKOs max/min Sandslash if you invest heavily in SpA. And +natured 252 Atk Waterfall has a pathetically small chance to 2HKO postive max/max Sandslash through Lefties (the typical LeadSlash).

Oh, and without defensive investment Scarf Primeape's Adamant Close Combat OHKOs most of the time, with a chance to KO when Jolly.
 
Yeah, Floatzel's actually somewhat versitile within NU. It's a good Anti-Lead, only really suffering against Relicanth leads. It can viably attack with a mixed set.

There is also a set-up set viable for Floatzel. Bulk Up. While getting it in may be difficult due to Floatzel's low defences, Floatzel's the fastest thing in NU, and it's attack is also very high.

Then, there's Rain Dance Floatzels to contend with. Nothing, under no common battle conditions, outspeeds +2 Floatzel in the whole teir, and when Waterfall has Double STAB... well, you know what Kingdra does in OU unless it runs into something like Empoleon, Suicune or Vaporeon with it's water-type attacks. Imagine that with a even higher attack stat, and a 30% flinch rate.

I gotta try NU rain dance some time. 'Bass, Floatzel... they're hard-hitting as it is, let alone without Double STAB and Double Speed.
 
It suffers against Relicanth leads, Sandslash leads and Scarfed U-Turners like Primeape. But I guess it's a decent lead. You wouldn't want it mixed though.

Bulk Up Floatzel is pretty strong - its main strength is that, unlike other Bulk-Uppers or Cursers, it doesn't switch or die when Espeon hits the scene. It also has priority, which is awesome.

Yeah, NU Rain Dance is pretty good, and Floatzel is one of the better sweepers. Even boosted, I don't think it 2HKOs Miltank with Waterfall, though. Most other RD sweepers are walled by Slowking, which makes Floatzie quite impressive in that respect.

I guess if I were to build NU Rain Dance it would be:
Electrode/Floatzel/Gorebyss/Huntail or Relicanth/Gardevoir/Manectric
 
Ice-eyes said:
It suffers against Relicanth leads, Sandslash leads and Scarfed U-Turners like Primeape. But I guess it's a decent lead. You wouldn't want it mixed though.

Bulk Up Floatzel is pretty strong - its main strength is that, unlike other Bulk-Uppers or Cursers, it doesn't switch or die when Espeon hits the scene. It also has priority, which is awesome.

Yeah, NU Rain Dance is pretty good, and Floatzel is one of the better sweepers. Even boosted, I don't think it 2HKOs Miltank with Waterfall, though. Most other RD sweepers are walled by Slowking, which makes Floatzie quite impressive in that respect.

I guess if I were to build NU Rain Dance it would be:
Electrode/Floatzel/Gorebyss/Huntail or Relicanth/Gardevoir/Manectric
Click to expand...

Explain how Sandslash beats Floatzel. Lead Floatzel carries Focus Sash, and outspeeds Sandslash. Floatzel would only possibly have trouble if it mispredicts, and Taunts Sandslash, while Sandslash Earthquakes it.

Bulk Up Floatzel destroys Espeon, outspeeding it, and using Crunch for the easy OHKO.

A decent moveset for Bulk Up Floatzel would be something like:
Bulk Up/Waterfall/Aqua Jet/Crunch

Crunch + Waterfall has great NU coverage, Sharpedo being the only thing in the teir, unless I'm mistaken, that resists both. Anything that can survive Waterfall also has to contend with the 30% flinch rate. Besides Electrode, Floatzel's the fastest thing in the teir as well.

As for NU Rain Dance... I'd probobly go for an Electrode Lead for the Rain, Floatzel would be a given, as would Gorebyss [With Hidden Power Electric for dealing some damage to Slowking]. Ampherous would be a good mid-game Rain Dancer, especially with Thunder, and Gardevoir would be another good mid-game user. Relicanth would probobly be my last sweeper, it's not that slow in the Rain, if it's got Swift Swim, and when Waterfall has Double Stab, Head Smash is not used *as* much.
 
Floatzel doesn't 2HKO the typical Sandslash with Waterfall. Sandslash 2HKOs back with EQ. So, unless you flinch - which I admit is reasonably likely - you die.

I was highlighting the fact that Floatzel does outspeed Espeon.

I don't think Ampharos is that good on NU Rain Dance - you probably only need one bulky poke to set it up mid-game, so you can afford to use an RD-carrying sweeper like Manectric. I've had success with the similar Raikou in UU.
 
i dont think NU rain is anywhere near as effective as UU, do to the lack of pokemon that have the ability to sweep when in rain.
 
The problem with Low Kick and Crunch on Floatsel is that it has to run Aqua Jet/Taunt/Waterfall, and they usually use Ice Punch for greater coverage.

Return is probubly the best fourth move though.
 
What exactly outspeeds a Linoone +1 with Extremespeed? Would a Fake Out/Sucker Punch have higher priority? (say, from a Skuntank)
 
toshimelonhead said:
What exactly outspeeds a Linoone +1 with Extremespeed? Would a Fake Out/Sucker Punch have higher priority? (say, from a Skuntank)
Click to expand...

priority goes by who is faster, if the poke outspeeds linoone but is not also +1 then linoone will go first, but if the poke is +1 and does have a higher speed, than it will have priority over linoone.

i hope i explained that right :]
 
toshimelonhead said:
What exactly outspeeds a Linoone +1 with Extremespeed? Would a Fake Out/Sucker Punch have higher priority? (say, from a Skuntank)
Click to expand...

A pokemon with more than 100 base speed using a priority move (like say Floatzel although not recommended) can hit a Linoone, but the best way to stop Linoone is a Timid Scarfed Haunter using Sludge Bomb, beacause he is immune to Extreme Speed and outspeeds (almost all) Linoone.
There is a thread at Project NU talking about how to stop Linoone here
http://z6.invisionfree.com/Project_NU/index.php?showtopic=19
 
Well, I don't run into many Sandslash leads [They've all been Relicanth, or Electrode for me], although, that's slightly surprising how they can shrug off two Super-Effective attacks from a rather high Base Power.

Although, 2 hits at 30% flinch rate, it's actually a decent chance you'll flinch on at least one of those turns.

[I just did 7/10 Squared, to work out the probobilty, that Sandslash will not flinch at all. The result was 49/100, putting it slightly in Floatzel's favor. In 100 games, Floatzel *should* win 51 of them.]

Aqua Jet is not a given on a pokemon that only one thing in the whole teir naturally outspeeds. Aqua Jet is just insurance against Scarfers [It's not going to OHKO them], and a way to beat Skuntank. The only time I'd run Aqua Jet on Floatzel is if I'm using Bulk Up, so it actually stands a chance at killing frailer scarfers. Crunch allows Floatzel to get past, or at least heavily damage, Slowking. Brick Break allows damage to be done to Lapras, who would otherwise set up in your face. Personally, I run both usually, so I get near-perfect coverage, on top of Floatzel's stats. 4th move is usually Taunt, for Leads, or Bulk Up, for when I'm running mid-game.

Anyway, on the topic of Linoone, Scarf Haunter does stop it cold. However, a far better solution is just to not let it set up. Linoone is NOT easy to set up, I can't think of any common NU pokemon that can't break it's sub. Unless it comes in on a sleeping pokemon, or gets lucky on a paralysed pokemon, it's not going to live... unless you sacrificed Gardevoir with Momento. [And even then, a decent amount of stuff can break Linoone's Sub at -2]
 
Waterfall's flinch rate is only 20%.

And Substitute isn't used on Linoone. Well, you can use it, but you're borderline stupid if you do. It is not worth losing important coverage or power for the off-chance that you need to avoid status first turn, which clever setup will attempt to avoid anyway. And I personally think Gastrodon is the best setup Pokemon for Linoone in terms of reliability, both in NU and UU.
 
Oh yeah, I forgot, unlike common Belly Drummers, Linoone gets it's pinch berry at 50% due to gluttony. Hence, it wouldn't use sub. Still, without Momento, it'll be nigh-impossible for Linoone to switch in, and set up, against an offensive team.

Waterfall's only 20%? I could swear it was 30%. Still, this winds up as a 64/100 chance of Sandslash not flinching, so the odds are not dreadful, and Floatzel still has a realistic chance.

There's also the chance it carries Surf. Some weird mixed Floatzel. I mean, it's Sp.Attack isn't bad.
 
pokerama said:
i dont think NU rain is anywhere near as effective as UU, do to the lack of pokemon that have the ability to sweep when in rain.
Click to expand...

As of now Rain is incredibly powerful due to the tier changes not being in place yet. I know this because I overlooked it in the tournament (I assumed all the Rain Pokemon were UU).

For example, Electrode and Gorebyss are still NU. Additionally, Kabutops is quite easily replaced by Relicanth and/or Floatzel.
 
unless linoone is running rock smash, aggron stops it pretty well

scarf haunter stops it

tauros can intimidate and switch to dusclops to avoid e-speed, lowering attack by 1 and wasting 2 of e-speeds 8 PP, then switch tauros in for another intimidate, at this point dusknoir survives shadow claw (I think) with max/max and can will-o-wisp but thats a last resort

generally, it is hard for linnone to set up, and the secret is, even if a memento is used, still attack, because hopefully, even at -6, you can do enough for one or two priorities to kill it

god damn, generation 5 better bring us some ghost/normal pokes to stop rock smash+e-speed+shadow claw
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top