what moves do your run with double boosting moves?
Crab hammer + Return? or Rock slide?
I think that with a bit of entry hazard it can work even without SD, :P but that's just another option I guess
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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
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Crab hammer + Return? or Rock slide?
I think that with a bit of entry hazard it can work even without SD, :P but that's just another option I guess
Wish on Lickilicky is an NYPC move, and I like to play my NU on wifi, so that limits my options a bit. I wouldn't bother with Agility on Kingler with PAR support, just try and get a SD in and Crabhammer until I die... Rock Slide for the flinch chance would probably be preferred 3rd move of choice, and it would be gnarly if Kingler got Low Kick :D
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Kingler achieves perfect coverage with Return + Crabhammer, with the exception of Shedinja. Therefore, you can use an SD + Agility set and sweep with remarkable ease. Gardevoir makes a very good supporter for this strategy, as it can set up screens, has Lunar Dance/Memento (does Xatu?), and can also pass Wish.
With the hype around the MilKing core, talk has been about wallbreakers that can smash through both. However, I've been trying Gligar recently and it actually has better defensive synergy with Slowking. Gligar has two weaknesses - Water and Ice - and Slowking resists both. Both are also predominantly Special, so Slowking does not have to worry about tanking strong physical attacks, as it must when paired with Miltank. The Electric immunity is very nice, as fast, LO/Specs Electric-type moves were tearing through my team - Manectric was a huge problem. Miltank doesn't cover this weakness.
One of the bigger advantages of Gligar, though, is its access to U-Turn - Miltank would often have to fire off blind Body Slams at switch-ins and hope for paralysis. This ruins offensive momentum and can let strong special attackers wreak havoc. U-Turn allows you to bring in a poke that can benefit from the opponent's switch-in, hopefully letting you bag a kill or at least turning the tide of battle in your favour.
Thoughts?
With the hype around the MilKing core, talk has been about wallbreakers that can smash through both. However, I've been trying Gligar recently and it actually has better defensive synergy with Slowking. Gligar has two weaknesses - Water and Ice - and Slowking resists both. Both are also predominantly Special, so Slowking does not have to worry about tanking strong physical attacks, as it must when paired with Miltank. The Electric immunity is very nice, as fast, LO/Specs Electric-type moves were tearing through my team - Manectric was a huge problem. Miltank doesn't cover this weakness.
One of the bigger advantages of Gligar, though, is its access to U-Turn - Miltank would often have to fire off blind Body Slams at switch-ins and hope for paralysis. This ruins offensive momentum and can let strong special attackers wreak havoc. U-Turn allows you to bring in a poke that can benefit from the opponent's switch-in, hopefully letting you bag a kill or at least turning the tide of battle in your favour.
Thoughts?
seems fine to me..
GliKing should actually be able to take on a wallbreaking magmortar unlike MilKing. I was going to try a Camerupt to stop Magmortar before but gligar sounds more promising.
Xatu works better as a wish passer for me than gardevior, because it can get a free switch in on ground moves, which gardevior cant, and with a faster base speed, it can get both screens up before taking a hit, gardevior on the other hand, tends to get hit once or sometimes twice when setting up screens and usually dies after it uses wish.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Magmortar isn't that hard to stop. If your Slowking is positive/max/max, it can sometimes avoid a 2HKO from Modest Life Orb Thunderbolt! Basically, you Thunder Wave it and spam Slack Off until paralysis strikes or Life Orb recoil kills them.
This is one of the major attractions of Thunder Wave on Slowking over options like Toxic and Light Screen.
@ Pokerama: true, Xatu is faster, and that speed is important. However, Gardevoir also gets stellar Special Defense, Synchronise/Trace (though Early Bird is nice) and Will-o-Wisp. Xatu's 65/70/70 defenses are... less than stellar, compared to Gardevoir's nice 68/65/115 - allowing it to set up on special attackers reasonably freely.
Also worth noting is that, unlike Xatu, Wallbreaker Magmortar and Medicham don't pack moves to hit Gardevoir super-effectively, meaning they can't threaten it as much.
This is one of the major attractions of Thunder Wave on Slowking over options like Toxic and Light Screen.
@ Pokerama: true, Xatu is faster, and that speed is important. However, Gardevoir also gets stellar Special Defense, Synchronise/Trace (though Early Bird is nice) and Will-o-Wisp. Xatu's 65/70/70 defenses are... less than stellar, compared to Gardevoir's nice 68/65/115 - allowing it to set up on special attackers reasonably freely.
Also worth noting is that, unlike Xatu, Wallbreaker Magmortar and Medicham don't pack moves to hit Gardevoir super-effectively, meaning they can't threaten it as much.
Depends, Gardevoir gets free-switch ins too, due to Trace. Quagsire's Surf, for example, will be absorbed. Gardevoir is also bulkier in the first place, and has Healing Wish, if the tendancy to die is a problem.
Gardevoir, unlike Xatu, can actually hurt something as well.
As for Magmortar being 'Easy' to stop, I hope that was sarcasm, because deicateing a spot to a +Nature, Max/Max Slowking, to STILL not have a 100% counter [And is this chance with or without Rocks down?], seems excessive, and only a testament to Magmortar's power.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Slowking is really, really good right now - it makes an excellent check to Rain sweepers like Gorebyss and can switch into most Espeon quite easily. Choiced Fire-types can't touch it, and it can freely switch in on them - without Life Orb, Scarf Magmortar is 50-50 to 2HKO max/min/neutral Slowking even if you do switch into T-Bolt. Being able to force out, cripple or kill LO Magmortar is really nice as well, because you can switch in on Fire Blast or Focus Blast, always survive a T-Bolt whatever your spread (I think, haven't run any calcs, but you should always be maxing Slowking's HP anyway) and Thunder Wave Mortar. You can then stall it out with Slack Off and have a decent chance of beating it.
Unfortunetly, with Slowking being so common, and good, there's a good chance that decent Magmortar players may predict Slowking, and Thunderbolt on the switch-in. Life Orb Magmortars are even worse, as they can afford a misprediction, and can Thunderbolt again, becuse they are faster. As you said, even + Nature Max/Max Slowking can be 2HKO'ed by Life Orb Magmortar's Thunderbolt. One of the best Special Walls in the teir, with + Nature, 2HKO'ed.
Don't even want to think about SpecsMortar either. That thing will be a certain 2HKO.
I never said Slowking wasn't good, I'm just saying, it says an awful lot about the centralisation of Magmortar [And possible Brokeness] if it's taking a Special Wall to Max/Max + Nature, and STILL not being a hard counter, as it risks being 2HKO'ed if it switches in on Thunderbolt.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Once again:
a) Slowking isn't used just to deal with Magmortar - not even primarily to deal with Magmortar. It takes on basically every special threat in the tier that doesn't have Electric-type STAB, including arguably the more threatening and overcentralising Espeon.
b) With Thunder Wave Slowking can beat LO Magmortar easily and spread paralysis around your team.
a) Slowking isn't used just to deal with Magmortar - not even primarily to deal with Magmortar. It takes on basically every special threat in the tier that doesn't have Electric-type STAB, including arguably the more threatening and overcentralising Espeon.
b) With Thunder Wave Slowking can beat LO Magmortar easily and spread paralysis around your team.
Thinking I might have to try this, just because Kingler is cool. :naughty:
No, it does lose without Wacan. You get 2HKO'd on the switch in. That means you have to revenge kill it, or switch in to Fire Blast/Focus Blast. In which case you are still forced to use Surf/Thunder Wave, since other wise it will beat you with Thunderbolt. Therefore, you cannot heal, your opponent easily switches out to something that can take the Thunder Wave/Surf and force you out. Now you are sitting with a Slowking with about 75% HP (assuming it switches in to SR and Fire Blast) Another switch in to Fire Blast and SR, put it into Thunderbolt KO range. The best bulky water in the tier cannot switch in safely to a Fire type. Isn't that a little messed up?
Considering the potential change in Entei's moveset, Flare Blitz, I decided to do some damage calculations.
Choice Band max attack Entei using Flare Blitz:
vs 252/252 + nature Thick Fat Miltank: 541 Atk vs 339 Def & 394 HP (60 Base Power)*: 103 - 123 (26.14% - 31.22%) Derp
vs 252/0 neutral natured Slowking: 541 Atk vs 196 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 178 - 210 (45.18% - 53.30%) 88% chance of 2HKO w/ SR and leftovers.
vs 252/252 + nature Quagsire: 541 Atk vs 295 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 118 - 139 (29.95% - 35.28%) Again, not that great.
vs 252/252 + nature Torkoal: 541 Atk vs 416 Def & 344 HP (120 Base Power): 84 - 99 (24.42% - 28.78%) lol
Now, those were just the highest-Defense Pokemon in NU that make good Entei switch-ins. Now lets see what happens when we throw in Sunny Day, just to see.
Same Miltank: 541 Atk vs 339 Def & 394 HP (60 Base Power)*: 154 - 183 (39.09% - 46.45%) Suddenly there is a very real chance (22%) of a 2HKO w/ SR, but 0% w/ leftovers.
Same Slowking541 Atk vs 196 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 267 - 314 (67.77% - 79.70%) 100% chance of a 2HKO.
Same Quagsire: 541 Atk vs 295 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 177 - 208 (44.92% - 52.79%) 21% chance of a 2HKO w/SR and Leftovers.
Same Torkoal: 541 Atk vs 416 Def & 344 HP (120 Base Power): 126 - 148 (36.63% - 43.02%) 27% chance of 2HKO w/ SR and Leftovers.
*Thick Fat halves the base power in the calculation
As you can see, under the sun, Entei has the potential to do a lot of damage even to resistant walls. You'd still want to weaken them by just a little to ensure 2HKOs, but the latter calculations are fairly impressive. I don't think it will be too gamebreaking considering all of those Pokemon sans Torkoal (lol) have a reliable recovery move. Still, it's something to think about.
Choice Band max attack Entei using Flare Blitz:
vs 252/252 + nature Thick Fat Miltank: 541 Atk vs 339 Def & 394 HP (60 Base Power)*: 103 - 123 (26.14% - 31.22%) Derp
vs 252/0 neutral natured Slowking: 541 Atk vs 196 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 178 - 210 (45.18% - 53.30%) 88% chance of 2HKO w/ SR and leftovers.
vs 252/252 + nature Quagsire: 541 Atk vs 295 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 118 - 139 (29.95% - 35.28%) Again, not that great.
vs 252/252 + nature Torkoal: 541 Atk vs 416 Def & 344 HP (120 Base Power): 84 - 99 (24.42% - 28.78%) lol
Now, those were just the highest-Defense Pokemon in NU that make good Entei switch-ins. Now lets see what happens when we throw in Sunny Day, just to see.
Same Miltank: 541 Atk vs 339 Def & 394 HP (60 Base Power)*: 154 - 183 (39.09% - 46.45%) Suddenly there is a very real chance (22%) of a 2HKO w/ SR, but 0% w/ leftovers.
Same Slowking541 Atk vs 196 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 267 - 314 (67.77% - 79.70%) 100% chance of a 2HKO.
Same Quagsire: 541 Atk vs 295 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 177 - 208 (44.92% - 52.79%) 21% chance of a 2HKO w/SR and Leftovers.
Same Torkoal: 541 Atk vs 416 Def & 344 HP (120 Base Power): 126 - 148 (36.63% - 43.02%) 27% chance of 2HKO w/ SR and Leftovers.
*Thick Fat halves the base power in the calculation
As you can see, under the sun, Entei has the potential to do a lot of damage even to resistant walls. You'd still want to weaken them by just a little to ensure 2HKOs, but the latter calculations are fairly impressive. I don't think it will be too gamebreaking considering all of those Pokemon sans Torkoal (lol) have a reliable recovery move. Still, it's something to think about.
It depends on the set. General support Miltank generally runs thick fat because it has other options to to hit ghosts with. (and the ubiquitous skunktank) but most curse sets take scrappy so they can run other options like heal bell or EQ.
@khyl:I never thought to use sunny day in my calcs. those are scary. Also, remember that Entei has three other moves it can use. SE floors torkoal (straight 2KO) return 2KOs slowking (51.3-60.4. Can't switch in, but beware of Magmortar strategy) Hp grass is quagsire's bane (no EVs or nature, 252/0 quag vs. hp grass: 67.8-79.7) Miltank is really the only surefire wall for it. (starting to get repetitive, isn't it?) at least this forces it to run thick fat if it wants to hold a candle to him.
@khyl:I never thought to use sunny day in my calcs. those are scary. Also, remember that Entei has three other moves it can use. SE floors torkoal (straight 2KO) return 2KOs slowking (51.3-60.4. Can't switch in, but beware of Magmortar strategy) Hp grass is quagsire's bane (no EVs or nature, 252/0 quag vs. hp grass: 67.8-79.7) Miltank is really the only surefire wall for it. (starting to get repetitive, isn't it?) at least this forces it to run thick fat if it wants to hold a candle to him.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Miltank often uses Scrappy - it depends on the rest of your team. Curse Miltank should ALWAYS use Scrappy so it has room for Heal Bell.
@ Leman, what can take on Slowking when paralysed? Magmortar isn't really that much of a threat either because it's SR-weak and it's easy to sack something that's already been weakened and send in something like ScarfApe to force it out, maintain momentum and wear Mortar down with residual damage.
@ Leman, what can take on Slowking when paralysed? Magmortar isn't really that much of a threat either because it's SR-weak and it's easy to sack something that's already been weakened and send in something like ScarfApe to force it out, maintain momentum and wear Mortar down with residual damage.
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