Wartortle doesn't exactly like facing down Torterra (Grass STAB), Seismitoad (Water Absorb), and Metang (Toxic), and it does fuck all against Taunt Misdreavus. It's generally a better spinner than Armaldo, but that doesn't say too much about it.
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NU Stats - July 2013
- Thread starter skylight
- Start date
I find it pretty hilarious that just months ago people were bitching about Wartortle usage and now we're acknowledging it as one of the better spinners in the tier (it still sucks though :[ )
Happens a lot in many competitive games. People think something sucks until the "good" or "top" players start using it. Likewise, there are Pokemon that see a lot of usage at one period and totally disappear later on (I'll be making a thread with a similar concept in a week or two~) Regarding Wartortle's viability, I like that we have at least one spinner that is very reliable at spinning so stall teams can function well.
Also Charizard having such low weight is a bit saddening for me. I think it is an amazing Pokemon. It's very hard to deal with Charizard when it comes in without something like a Regirock.
Just months ago, there wasn't Scolipede, one of the best spikes setter of the tier, and all these stall teams, based on hazards, so a spinner was less useful.
Also, the charizard usage explains why we speak about wartortle, as they both have a good synergie. A FWG core using torterra, wartortle and charizard is pretty good.
Concerning Regirock, it seems to be a good charizard counter, but regirock is 2hko by HP Grass and OHKO by Focus Blast after rocks by the LO set.
Same for Munchlax, Audino and Lickilicky, as they don't really like taking a focus blast, and some Audino/Lickilicky players use Roselia as a focus blast resistance, who is OHKO by fire blast.
Scolipede dropped since April, people have been seen complaining about Wartortle usage at ~May or June. It does seem like people are actually acknowledging Wartortle this time round.
Personally, I'm still really confused by Miltank's really high usage on the ladder. I understand that Miltank has three great abilities and thus can be used however you need it to be used for your team. My problem is that I feel like regardless of which ability you're using and what role you're using it in, there's always a Pokemon that could be better for you team.
The other thing that surprises me about Miltank is that I was all over the ladder last month and saw maybe five Miltanks the whole time. Weird stuff. Otherwise, the 1850 stats are a fairly accurate representation of the metagame outside of a few oddballs here and there and some grossly underused Pokemon, and I'm pretty satisfied to see Jynx, Scolipede, Seismitoad, and Kangaskhan all crack the top 10 in 1850 stats.
The other thing that surprises me about Miltank is that I was all over the ladder last month and saw maybe five Miltanks the whole time. Weird stuff. Otherwise, the 1850 stats are a fairly accurate representation of the metagame outside of a few oddballs here and there and some grossly underused Pokemon, and I'm pretty satisfied to see Jynx, Scolipede, Seismitoad, and Kangaskhan all crack the top 10 in 1850 stats.
im just going to talk about the 1850 stats because the normal stats are irrelevant imo
looking at the stats alomomola, missy, and musharna are all in the top 10 which is actually kind of surprising because people think the meta is "100% offensive, lol stall" but these are pretty defensive pokemon. sure musharna can run like specs or otr but the most common set is usually cm or bpass (or both!). sure theres still like 7 other pokemon that are pretty offensive but these mons still show that defense is still a viable strategy in the tier even with strong mons like jynx and scolipede's hazards so thats a pretty cool thing about these stats. im kinda surprised skuntank is so high because yea its good, but not nearly as good as it was before so thats kinda weird - maybe ppl are just realizing how much it fucks psychic-types up now lol. id still like to see jynx and scoli at the top two but theyre still in top ten which is o_k i guess. A couple of mons like Carracosta, Pinsir, Muk, Munchlax, Fraxure, and Klang are still way too low - i thought at least good players would use them =/. Anyways the stats are actually slightly improving (in 1850 at least) so hopefully next months will be better =).
looking at the stats alomomola, missy, and musharna are all in the top 10 which is actually kind of surprising because people think the meta is "100% offensive, lol stall" but these are pretty defensive pokemon. sure musharna can run like specs or otr but the most common set is usually cm or bpass (or both!). sure theres still like 7 other pokemon that are pretty offensive but these mons still show that defense is still a viable strategy in the tier even with strong mons like jynx and scolipede's hazards so thats a pretty cool thing about these stats. im kinda surprised skuntank is so high because yea its good, but not nearly as good as it was before so thats kinda weird - maybe ppl are just realizing how much it fucks psychic-types up now lol. id still like to see jynx and scoli at the top two but theyre still in top ten which is o_k i guess. A couple of mons like Carracosta, Pinsir, Muk, Munchlax, Fraxure, and Klang are still way too low - i thought at least good players would use them =/. Anyways the stats are actually slightly improving (in 1850 at least) so hopefully next months will be better =).
In fact, having one of those doesn't mean stall. Even is a very offensive team, i always have one of them to assure i will not be sweep. Golurk and Sawk at #1 and #2 means also their counters are common, alomomola eats golurk while musharna can set up on a banded close combat. They just can be us a a pivot, for instance, sometimes i just use my alomomola to pass a wish to a full life mon, juste to assure. I saw several teams using 5 sweepers + alomomola.
Missy is a great mon, I always fear that an opponent misdreavus begins to set up a nasty plot, because common special wall (lickilicky, audino), can't really do something against him (bar thunder wave, and even, some missy use Sub + NP)
I find skuntank usage pretty normal. He just counters misdreavus, gardevoir, haunter, exeggutor, musharna, and gives trouble to both alomomola (taunt + poison jab) and Golurk (sucker punch, crunch), and couple of other mons. So it's a huge Sawk Teammates, as it beats the annoying tangela.
Lum version is also a good Jynx check.
Curiously, Miltank is one of the most annoying pokemon a stall team can face: Heal Bell + Milk Drink, good bulk, too fast for Taunt, and Scrappy Body Slam hax can drive them insane. Worse yet, I've seen like 3 Miltanks in~7 matches, and let me tell you they were not fun.
Easily the most grossly underused pokemon is this:
| 50 | Carracosta | 3.92270% | 14007 | 5.356% | 11603 | 5.487% |
You see that shit? That's how difficult it is to use Costa. I won't deny it can be threatening, but good players who 'give' it an opportunity to setup usually have a backup plan for it anyway (The fact that players do prepare for it can justify its ranking, but it is still tricky to use).
Whenever I use Miltank, it's for her specially defensive set with Thick Fat. Apart from generic team support, she also has the most easily spammed recovery option of the four or so normal type special walls (assuming that your team isn't in dire need of wish passing). Also, thick fat means that she has a much easier time dealing with threats like Charizard or Jynx (assuming no focus blast). She can also take at least neutral hits on both sides of the spectrum, spread Toxic or Paralysis as your team requires, and has pretty awesome speed for a wall. I could definitely see her being inferior to Lickilicky or similar on some teams, but in the style that I usually play, she's just a fantastic utility mon, and doesn't tend to compound weaknesses to the same degree that other clerics in the tier might.
Getting more usage than Scolipede might be a bit of a stretch, but she's still a solid mon.
The TOP10 of the 1850 stats pretty much reflects the NU metagame perfectly.
Gardevoir is now in her right place: under Jynx and Musharna.
| 13 | Miltank | 9.93014% | 20672 | 7.904% | 16925 | 8.004% |
Miltank is really annoying.
She's bulky, has a decent ATK, has Body Slam to spread Paralysis if you don't want to run T-Wave on her, has three good ability and you are always wondering wich ability she has and you must risk to (or be prevented from) use that Sleep Powder/Giga Drain or sent in that Ghost Type with the fear being randomly paralyzed by Body Slam.
If you don't have enough, Miltank has good support moves too in Twave, Toxic, Stealth Rock, Milk Drink, Heal Bell and has enough speed for a tank and a good one for a sweeper (if you want go for it).
I'm not surprised about is pretty high in usage.
Gardevoir is now in her right place: under Jynx and Musharna.
| 13 | Miltank | 9.93014% | 20672 | 7.904% | 16925 | 8.004% |
Miltank is really annoying.
She's bulky, has a decent ATK, has Body Slam to spread Paralysis if you don't want to run T-Wave on her, has three good ability and you are always wondering wich ability she has and you must risk to (or be prevented from) use that Sleep Powder/Giga Drain or sent in that Ghost Type with the fear being randomly paralyzed by Body Slam.
If you don't have enough, Miltank has good support moves too in Twave, Toxic, Stealth Rock, Milk Drink, Heal Bell and has enough speed for a tank and a good one for a sweeper (if you want go for it).
I'm not surprised about is pretty high in usage.
Miltank's definitely a boss Pokemon. She makes for a decent check to a variety of threatening Pokemon, particularly Charizard, Jynx, and Regice, with Thick Fat, which is what I use. If you go Sap Sipper mode, she checks a whole butt-load of others. I love her Curse/Milk Drink/Heal Bell/Body Slam set the most. People seem to have forgotten about Curse and she ends up sweeping quite often.
I also tried using her more offensively with Work Up/Milk Drink/Return|Double-Edge/Earthquake and it was really fun to use. Her Speed is awesome and Attack isn't half bad.
I love milk also.
I also tried using her more offensively with Work Up/Milk Drink/Return|Double-Edge/Earthquake and it was really fun to use. Her Speed is awesome and Attack isn't half bad.
I love milk also.
Yep, i've tried CurseTank too in the past and she never disappoint me !
You pretty much always expect the classic Tank set with Milk Drink/Heal Bell/Body Slam/Stealth Rock|Toxic|T-Wave and she put yourself in a bad situation when you discover she has a different set. The counters changes based on her ability, so Miltank is initially unpredictable.
You pretty much always expect the classic Tank set with Milk Drink/Heal Bell/Body Slam/Stealth Rock|Toxic|T-Wave and she put yourself in a bad situation when you discover she has a different set. The counters changes based on her ability, so Miltank is initially unpredictable.
Hidden Power Grass won't be used with SolarBeam on the same set and they always compete for a moveslot (either Power Herb SolarBeam, SunnyZard or Specs under the Sun).
Fire Blast + Air Slash + Grass move + Focus Blast/Dragon Pulse
Depending on if you prefer the reliable hit or an inaccurate attack that hits hard.
It also depends on how well your team deals with Altaria, something Sun teams have problems with.
honestly i don't think dragon pulse even does enough to altaria. air slash is sufficient against offensive sets while hidden power ice is the only thing charizard carries that does enough to defensive variants. there is no reason to use dragon pulse, and i'm surprised that people would forgo one of charizard's precious move slots for it.
I'm on the rocks for Regirock (kill me now), the meta has gotten more offensive but I think it can still hold up in some way. Really the biggest thing stopping it then was Golurk, but its usage didn't really fall off the face of the earth, and back then it competed fiercely with Golem as an SR setter (and was even S-Rank at one point iinm).
It does have a lot of useful moves: Thunder Wave cripples threats while Regirock has more than enough bulk to use it, Ice Punch can nail Ground-types bar Seismitoad and Piloswine, Drain Punch is useful for additional recovery and manhandles Normal-types, Psych Up trolls SubBU Braviary. It probably has some other niche moves I didn't mention, but right now Golem's Ground-typing, Sturdy and priority is giving it so much of an edge. Is there hope for Regirock?
It does have a lot of useful moves: Thunder Wave cripples threats while Regirock has more than enough bulk to use it, Ice Punch can nail Ground-types bar Seismitoad and Piloswine, Drain Punch is useful for additional recovery and manhandles Normal-types, Psych Up trolls SubBU Braviary. It probably has some other niche moves I didn't mention, but right now Golem's Ground-typing, Sturdy and priority is giving it so much of an edge. Is there hope for Regirock?
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 159-187 (45.04 - 52.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And for those who use NukeZard:
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria in sun: 272-322 (77.05 - 91.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
About Regirock, I am sure it became worse, but it still has a niche imho. It is still decent on Sun Teams, due to its massive physical bulk and lack of 4× weaknesses it can take any hit while setting up Stealth Rock as well as Sunny Day.
I'm suprised nobody is talking about kadabra, it's reached the 25th position in this hazard infested meta and has a great speed outspeeding both the new drops and some mons commonly used to outspeed them such as charizard. While it does find a new wall to penetrate in mandibuzz, it's presence against offensive teams should definately not be neglected. I haven't used what used to be my signature mon in a good while but I'm very curious to know how well it does in this meta, anyone got any feedback ?
Kadabra can render some of its counters ineffective thanks to Encore, and with Encore, it can even proceed to switch into status moves and Encore them, while racking up more damage (and free turns). Its blazing speed gives it an advantage over Jynx, and it can even screw up Sucker Punch users with Encore. Focus Sash means that it cannot be taken down unless with two hits, and often you're forced to sac something to take it down. I've also not used it recently, but for some reason it has caused me more problems than Jynx has
I've been using Kadabra a lot in the current meta, because it is so much fun to play with. As scorpdestroyer pointed out, encore can stop/annoy many of its usual counters, especially those relying on sucker punch. As for being outclassed by Jynx, I don't think that is true, a portion of its roles got over taken by Jynx, for good reason, but it still has a lot of value as a catch all revenge killer, being guaranteed at least one shot before death (barring rare multi-hit moves). I have personally been using Kadabra on the same teams as Jynx, as it usually draws in all of Jynx's counters (dark types and steel types, especially those with priority), and can take them out with HP ground or Signal Beam. After Encoring a sucker punch, it also gives Jynx an opportunity to get into the game w/o risking taking a hit, set up a sub and even lovely kiss or Nasty Plot (if they continue to keep the encored mon in), opening it up for a Jynx sweep/clean. In all honesty Kadabra is probably the best teammate for mono-attacking Jynx to have for this reason. Kadabra's use does jump slightly in the 1850, in spite of it falling a few places, but it is a decent mon, and I definitely don't think Kadabra should be overlooked as an option in the current meta. Mandibuzz dropping is really more of a problem for Kadabra at this point than any of the other recent drops.
Am I the only person who thinks Golurk is undeserving of the #1 spot?
Anyways, I love how extremely different the 1850 stats and regular stats are. Jynx moves up 6 spots, while Skuntank moves up 8, and Scolipede nearly 10. Sawk really should start moving down, though. It's not as good as it was the past few metas. Another thing I hope to se ein the future is a rise of Metang; Metang is pretty amazing this meta.
Anyways, I love how extremely different the 1850 stats and regular stats are. Jynx moves up 6 spots, while Skuntank moves up 8, and Scolipede nearly 10. Sawk really should start moving down, though. It's not as good as it was the past few metas. Another thing I hope to se ein the future is a rise of Metang; Metang is pretty amazing this meta.
I believe Sawk is just as good as it once was, and that is due to its sheer wallbreaking power and especially Mold Breaker. With these traits combined, Sawk can just plough through things if you can predict correctly. Mold Breaker is IMO what makes it effective. In this meta, we see the rise of many threats that don't like Stealth Rock, such as Jynx, Charizard, Swellow, and stall teams in general. With Choice Band and Sturdy, Sawk can easily eliminate opposing Stealth Rock leads, and the ladder usually leads with their Stealth Rock user anyways so most of the time you're safe. It's a great anti-lead and midgame attacker, and I don't think it has deproved significantly since the past metas