Official NBA 2010-11 Season Thread

[DerrickRose]

Basically, I see Van Gundy as a very average coach. He's about as good as George Karl.

the note of the post-Shaq/pre-Gasol Lakers days, Jackson coached a pretty shallow Lakers team to a 47-35 record. Smush Parker. Kwame Brown. Not much more to say.

Doc wasn't even a bad coach before the Celtics got good; his teams were just bad.

Basically, this is the summary of my response. I think you're simply giving excuses for coaches you like, and none for coaches you don't like.

I don't think this is at least logically consistent. You have to concede either way: coaching or talent.

If you say both, I don't see why you couldn't give Van Gundy that same leeway. Even a little bit because it's not like the guy hasn't gone anywhere.

 

[fmsYEAH]

My own thoughts are you're trying to give Van Gundy more credit than he deserves.

The '05-'06 Lakers overachieved with Jackson. The '99-'00 Magic overachieved with Doc. You underestimate how much of an influence coaches really have on a team.

How about this one?

Mike Brown became coach of the Cavs in the '05-'06 season. The previous season, the Cavs missed the playoffs with a 42-40 record. The first season with Brown, the Cavs made the 4th seed with a 50-32 record, and the Cavs played close with a great Detroit Pistons team in the second round. Brown leads a bad Cavs team to back to back 50 win seasons, even reaching the NBA Finals once. Some players are added in, and suddenly, the Cavs are marching in the regular season to the tune of 60+ wins. He got the Cavs to be a great defensive team while he was with the team, and his last two seasons, the Cavs were near the top offensively. Up until the last season, he had the respect of Lebron James and the rest of his roster.

...But you know what? You'll find few convinced that Mike Brown is a great coach despite all that. For me, it's the same as Van Gundy. I just don't see Van Gundy being able to do much more than win a bunch of regular season games, win a few playoff series, but end up extremely meh against the teams that count.

This is just a friendly reminder that these are just my opinions. I'm not out to convince you that Van Gundy's a bad coach/Doc can't do no wrong/etc. These are just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[DerrickRose]

Hmm, so you think it's somewhat like the Mike Brown situation?

Interesting; however, couldn't that apply to just about every coach without a ring (and heck, since Brown came close to one, it's possible it could even apply to Doc if you don't put too much stock in a single ring like I do).

And "meh against teams that count"? In the last two seasons, they lost to a team in the finals or teams that went to the finals. That's like 3rd or 4th best team in the league. Do you really think the Lakers and Celtics are the only teams that count out of 32?

Well, if this is just your opinion, fair do. It at least has validity; however, if the Magic do lose (and at this rate, it's likely they'll fall to the Celtics. Heat/Magic is probably slightly in the Heat's favor too), it wouldn't be because of coaching unless you point to some last second idiotic play. Out of those three teams, the better team will make it out of the trio. That is personally what I think. No coaching involvement whatsoever unless a timeout play was simply idiotic.

 

[Randombobman]

No coaching involvement whatsoever unless a timeout play was simply idiotic.

I think I should point out that Doc is the best play-from-timeout coach. 90% of the time his team comes out of a timeout, they're going to get a bucket.

Not sure what side I'm arguing, just decided to point that out.

 

[fmsYEAH]

Hmm, so you think it's somewhat like the Mike Brown situation?

It does seem similar the way I put it, no?

The Brown example was used mainly to point out what Van Gundy's done for the Magic isn't very impressive to me. Don't look that much into it.

Interesting; however, couldn't that apply to just about every coach without a ring (and heck, since Brown came close to one, it's possible it could even apply to Doc if you don't put too much stock in a single ring like I do).

Not really.

I give Skiles a lot of credit for what he did with the Bucks even if they're not a great team. They had a good defense, like most teams Skiles coaches. The offense, while not very good in terms of points being scored, was an efficient one with what they had.

I likewise give Larry Brown a lot of credit for what he did with the Bobcats (only last season though). The style's somewhat like the Bucks; great defense with passable offense.

The most important thing to note about those two is the team's their coaching. Are their rosters as good as the Magic? No, not even close. It's relative. The Magic aren't doing anything spectacular with Van Gundy. The Bobcats made their first postseason with Brown and "Fear the Deer" for the Bucks last season until Bogut went down.

And "meh against teams that count"? In the last two seasons, they lost to a team in the finals or teams that went to the finals. That's like 3rd or 4th best team in the league. Do you really think the Lakers and Celtics are the only teams that count out of 32?

If the point of a franchise is to win a title, then yes, the Lakers and Celtics were the only teams that mattered the last 3 seasons.

If your goal is the championship, why is being third an accomplishment? If your goal is a ring, is losing in the Eastern Conference Semis tolerable? If your team's suppose to be competing for a title, is losing in the finals the outcome you were looking for?

What team had a legit chance of beating the Celtics in a series in '08? Possibly the Lakers with Bynum, maybe the Spurs with a healthy Ginoboli. Who could beat the '09 Lakers? Healthy Celtics probably. Who had a legit chance against the '10 Lakers? As we saw, the Celtics.

As for this season, the Lakers, Celtics, Spurs are the only teams I consider worth anything in terms of a legit chance of winning it all. If the Lakers beat the Jazz, that's just business as usual. If the Spurs beat the Mavericks, good fought series, but the outcome doesn't surprise me at all. If the Celtics beat the Heat, saw this coming, next team.

But Mavericks beat the Lakers? What an upset! Magic beat the Celtics? Did KG bust his knee again? Heat beat the Spurs? Miami Three rise to the occasion! You get the idea. When I look at playoff matchups, I make two lists: Why Team A could win, and why Team B should win. Against any other team aside from themselves, the Lakers/Celtics/Spurs are Team B. You got some teams like the Mavs or Magic or Heat that could keep it close to these teams, but I would never favor any of them over those three teams.

(It shouldn't be necessary to say this, but don't take this as me saying the Mavs/Heat/Magic/Bulls/Whateverteamyoulike have absolutely no chance of winning a series against the Lakers/Celtics/Spurs. Some of you just jump at random points just for the sake of argument smh)

What team has the Magic beaten that comes out as an accomplishment? A KG-less Boston Celtics that took them 7 games to beat? A Cavaliers team that was overrated due to its regular season record? A weak 76ers team that took them 6 games to knock off two years in a row? A Hawks team that's merely good? Am I suppose to be in awe of these victories?

A playoff series doesn't take just talent of its players into play. It's about adjustments. You play your opponent a minimum of 4 times. The coach is the one drawing up the plays to counter the opponent's defensive scheme. He's the one who draws up the defense to counter the opponent's offense. It's not just "players playing the game". In a closely matched up series, the coach counts a lot to the success to a team.

Name one coach who coached a team so far and beyond better than their competition that the coach didn't have to do shit to win a ring; he just rode his team's talent to victory.

Well, if this is just your opinion, fair do. It at least has validity; however, if the Magic do lose (and at this rate, it's likely they'll fall to the Celtics. Heat/Magic is probably slightly in the Heat's favor too), it wouldn't be because of coaching unless you point to some last second idiotic play. Out of those three teams, the better team will make it out of the trio. That is personally what I think. No coaching involvement whatsoever unless a timeout play was simply idiotic.

I completely disagree with you here.

As I mentioned in the previous statement, a game, much less a playoff series, isn't just "players playing the game".

It's why the Pistons beat the Lakers so badly back in '04 (yes, more factors than just coaching in this one, I know. But it played a good part). It's why the Warriors destroyed the Mavericks back in '07. The Mavs didn't just get outplayed and out-toughed by a much weaker team. They got out-coached by Nelson.

You're looking only at certain points of the game, mainly those of crunch times. I'm looking at the overall play of throughout the game. If a game is a double-digit deficit, why is the game so? Failure to execute offensively? Defensively? Just one of those nights where shots don't fall? How was the effort from the first half to the second half? Did the players play like the coach wanted them to? How did the deficit get cut down from 11 to 5 in just 30 seconds? Energy level? Urgency level? How do they respond the next game? Coaches aren't just motivational speakers.

If the Magic lose to the Celtics/Heat, it won't be just because they played a better team. It'll be because Van Gundy got out-coached.

There's a lot a coach goes through, and I feel they're very under appreciated for what they do.

 

[DerrickRose]

The Magic aren't doing anything spectacular with Van Gundy.

I still don't get it, though. How can you give Skiles credit but not Gundy? The Magic used to be in the Bucks situation prior to Gundy. Now they aren't. They're a contender that kinda popped out slowly but surely.

The overall objective is to win a championship, yes, but that shouldn't play a part in how good the coach actually is. That's just motivation.

If your goal is the championship, why is being third an accomplishment? If your goal is a ring, is losing in the Eastern Conference Semis tolerable? If your team's suppose to be competing for a title, is losing in the finals the outcome you were looking for?

Well, I'm not trying to say that reacing the ECF is tolerable, but when you haven't gone there since the Shaq days, it's certainly an accomplishment if you look at the prior Magic seasons.

I'm sure Phil and Doc's motives are always to win a championship; even if the team isn't cut out to be one, but if they don't win a championship in such and such year, I wouldn't use that against them necessarily. If they still bring consistent results year after year with the same team, it's got to count for something. Gundy has done the same thing.

I completely disagree with you here.

Okay, how about this:

Choose either of the series they lost: Lakers 09 or Celtics 10. Those are the last two playoff losts by the Magic. I want you to tell me if any possible coaching for the Magic would have changed the outcome of either series. This isn't to prove you wrong or anything; I'm just curious in hearing any possible new coaching philosophies.

Also, I agree with you with the near equal teams them somewhat, but I rarely see teams I think are nearly equal. I guess that's a bit subjective maybe.

 

[Randombobman]

I don't know if using the 09 Finals against the Lakers is a fair comparison though. That team was just so not ready for a stacked Lakers team. They lost more by lack of depth and experience then coaching. If Courtney Lee had made that last layup in the 2nd (?) game in LA and won, the Magic might have won the Championship. The loss that year was more due to player inadequacy then Gundy coaching poorly. I mean look who they had out there. Rafer Alston (lol) instead of Nelson, and an extremely pressed Lee. The Magic roster is much better now and if they lose to the C's again, I'll put it on the coach rather than players.

 

[fmsYEAH]

I still don't get it, though. How can you give Skiles credit but not Gundy? The Magic used to be in the Bucks situation prior to Gundy. Now they aren't. They're a contender that kinda popped out slowly but surely.

The overall objective is to win a championship, yes, but that shouldn't play a part in how good the coach actually is. That's just motivation.

I give credit due to relativity. The season Van Gundy took over, look at the roster of the Magic, then compare to the rest of the East. You know what I see? A roster that's much better than everyone in the East outside the Celtics and Pistons. A roster good enough to win 50 games. What did Van Gundy do? Lead them to a 52 win season, 3rd seed, 2nd round of the playoffs where they lost 4-1 to the Pistons. He did what was expected.

Here are some questions:

Why didn't Van Gundy set up Lewis in the post more often when Lewis was a pretty good post player? Why isn't there much movement on a team with no go to scorer? Why were there times that Dwight only got single digit shot attempts? Why not use screens to get their shooters good looks ala Rip Hamilton did with the Pistons and Ray Allen did/does with the Sonics/Celtics? Why are you trying to make your team so focused on defense when the roster clearly isn't built that way (A roster with Arenas, Richardson, Turkoglu, and Lewis when he was around playing significant minutes, often together)? Why not quicken the pace? If this isn't exactly the roster you were looking for, why not let management know what the hell you're looking for? Why is the roster filled with way too many players who need the ball in their hands to be effective (Nelson, Arenas, Turkoglu), especially together? Why, despite all those players who need the ball in their hands, do they still lack a failsafe scorer?

Well, I'm not trying to say that reacing the ECF is tolerable, but when you haven't gone there since the Shaq days, it's certainly an accomplishment if you look at the prior Magic seasons.

Which does absolutely nothing for the Magic in terms of their chances at a ring.

I'm sure Phil and Doc's motives are always to win a championship; even if the team isn't cut out to be one, but if they don't win a championship in such and such year, I wouldn't use that against them necessarily. If they still bring consistent results year after year with the same team, it's got to count for something. Gundy has done the same thing.

Every coach wants to win a championship, but you have to take it in steps.

I seriously doubt Phil had real championship aspirations for his team back in '05-'06. Likewise with Doc pre-Big Three. Likewise with Larry Brown with the Bobcats/Knicks/Clippers. Likewise with D'Antoni when he got to New York. The list goes on and on and on and on.

Scott Skiles goal with his Bucks wasn't for a championship. It was to make the playoffs. Mission accomplished. Same with Woodson with the Hawks a few years back. Same with Phil and the Lakers post-Shaq.

No coach is going to look at a "just good" roster and say "We're competing for the title this year, boys" without being delusional.

Okay, how about this:

Choose either of the series they lost: Lakers 09 or Celtics 10. Those are the last two playoff losts by the Magic. I want you to tell me if any possible coaching for the Magic would have changed the outcome of either series. This isn't to prove you wrong or anything; I'm just curious in hearing any possible new coaching philosophies.

A few things the Magic could have employed against the Lakers would have been more use of the pick and roll, given LA's troubles dealing with it. Giving Lewis more touches in the post against Odom could have made him more effective than just keeping him in 3pt range and jacking up shot after shot (which worked in only 2 of the 5 games). Not playing Nelson as many minutes as he did. Give Kobe absolutely no room for his jumpers; I know it's Kobe, but it's the playoffs. Force the ball out of Kobe's hands; double teams, traps, whatever. Force the rest of the Lakers to beat you. Let Redick play more than Lee. Hell, for that matter, start Redick over Lee.

The Lakers were a better team that year, so even with the proper adjustments, they probably would have lost the series.

The problem is the Magic solved none of their problems the past 2 seasons. Lewis never got significant touches in the post. They essentially traded Hedo for Carter, then traded for him right back. They still don't have a player who can create his own shot even when Dwight's offensive game is still raw. The trades this season did absolutely nothing significant; they got tougher at the 4 in exchange for spreading the floor, lost depth at the 5, and got stupid depth at the wing positions. Still no shot creator. Still a lack of a coherent offense (though better now with Turkoglu back). I guess Van Gundy is satisfied with his roster like this?

Also, I agree with you with the near equal teams them somewhat, but I rarely see teams I think are nearly equal. I guess that's a bit subjective maybe.

If your team is significantly worse than the other team, nothing you can really do.


As for the '09 Magic, let me remind you, the one game that the Magic did end up winning, the Magic shot an NBA Finals high 65% from the field. The Lakers ended up losing by 4 at the last minute.

That entire series was the Lakers to lose. The Courtney Lee play was a great one, yeah. But one good play out of a time out isn't going to make me overlook a bunch of poor offense/defense that didn't let them close out those close games.

 

[DerrickRose]

First I'll touch with some of the questions you asked:

I am surprised you know more about the Magic's roster than I anticipated. You are very much right about the flaws that they have.

You are right that Lewis should have posted up more; but you have to remember that he is a small forward. He isn't really going to post up on fours (Odom, Sheed, etc).

If you switch Lewis to small forward, that takes Hedo away from his natural position and puts him at SG which could be a very bad defensive flaw.

The final reason he probably didn't make the change is because they didn't really practice him at the position so much at the time (he actually stated this the beginning of this season).

The Magic's problem the past 2 years have been shot creation and general perimeter defense, but that can't really be solved with coaching. They have a lot of high-money contracts and that's not really a player you can just find on the street. They almost landed Chris Paul and arguably Carmelo, but alas. Gilbert Arenas is as close as you can get.

The reason they got him and Hedo is mostly because the Magic's passing was inexplicable. They had a record low assist against the opener in Miami and Rashard Lewis has been struggling this season even at the SF position. After the trades, they've been better in every relevant category (more important, passing and assists).

The roster before the trade was basically everyone being good at something EXCEPT passing. Jameer, while is really the only guy that can pass exceptionally well, is still 6 feet tall. Then you have Lewis, Duhon, Richardson, Bass, and Pietrus... none of them are exceptional passers. If Jameer and Dwight are not playing well, no one is.

The roster may be built for defense, but they are still (and are able to) be a great defensive team. You can be a great defensive team if you have Howard patrolling the paint. He rebounds and blocks shots. All the defenders really have to do is funnel them towards him. It's worked for everyone for the past 3-4 years.

Overall, I guess you have some valid differences with Gundy on what he should have did the past two seasons (but I would exclude the Pistons simply because they've raped the Magic all decade; there's nothing you can do about that rofl).

 

[fmsYEAH]

First I'll touch with some of the questions you asked:

I am surprised you know more about the Magic's roster than I anticipated. You are very much right about the flaws that they have.

I'm surprised you thought I didn't know much about the Magic's roster and their problems.

They're a good team. Not a legit contending team in my opinion, but a good team nonetheless.

You are right that Lewis should have posted up more; but you have to remember that he is a small forward. He isn't really going to post up on fours (Odom, Sheed, etc).

Honestly, he could post up on players like Odom. Odom isn't exactly known for his post defense. He can post up most 3s, and remember, Lewis is a 6'10" guy. If the opposing 4's at a height disadvantage/isn't a good post defender, Lewis can probably beat him on the block.

If you switch Lewis to small forward, that takes Hedo away from his natural position and puts him at SG which could be a very bad defensive flaw.

Keep Lewis at the 4. I'm not saying Lewis should venture into the post every possession. It's just a very effective option that should have been utilized that the Magic rarely ever took advantage of. If the Magic couldn't get anything going, a mismatch came up, or they wanted to keep the opposing defenses modest, they could have used Lewis down low.

The final reason he probably didn't make the change is because they didn't really practice him at the position so much at the time (he actually stated this the beginning of this season).

As previously stated, they didn't need to move Lewis to the 3.

The Magic's problem the past 2 years have been shot creation and general perimeter defense, but that can't really be solved with coaching. They have a lot of high-money contracts and that's not really a player you can just find on the street. They almost landed Chris Paul and arguably Carmelo, but alas. Gilbert Arenas is as close as you can get.

I'll give the Magic some credit here; they did try to fix the former by trading for Carter. I thought it was a dumb move then, and it obviously didn't pan out. Lee would have been better trade bait for later honestly.

They don't even need a top tier shot maker, they just needed a good one. Like John Salmons or something.

If they can somehow get Arenas to be able to create shots like he used to, I can see the Magic making some noise. Even just 24 minutes of Hibachi would take the Magic further than they've ever gone. I don't see it happening though, but who knows how it'll go.

The reason they got him and Hedo is mostly because the Magic's passing was inexplicable. They had a record low assist against the opener in Miami and Rashard Lewis has been struggling this season even at the SF position. After the trades, they've been better in every relevant category (more important, passing and assists).

They were probably looking more for shots from Arenas more than passing. The Hedo trade does make the movement better, yes, and it really helps that Hedo already knows the system in place. Still, unless Arenas taps into Agent Zero, we're back where we started with the Magic; a team with a stagnant offense with an overrated defense that only holds up if Dwight can intimidate the opposing team.

The roster before the trade was basically everyone being good at something EXCEPT passing. Jameer, while is really the only guy that can pass exceptionally well, is still 6 feet tall. Then you have Lewis, Duhon, Richardson, Bass, and Pietrus... none of them are exceptional passers. If Jameer and Dwight are not playing well, no one is.

Duhon's not that bad a passer. He's just not that good if you play him too long. Short stretches and he's good to go.

Again, the other players not playing well is mainly because there's no movement. Give Richardson and Redick some screens. Run the pick and roll with Bass and Howard. You've got a lot of guys who can get out and run; do it some more.

The roster may be built for defense, but they are still (and are able to) be a great defensive team. You can be a great defensive team if you have Howard patrolling the paint. He rebounds and blocks shots. All the defenders really have to do is funnel them towards him. It's worked for everyone for the past 3-4 years.

You can be a good regular season defensive team with a policy like that. This doesn't work against teams with a structured offense. It won't hold against teams in a 7 game series.

Overall, I guess you have some valid differences with Gundy on what he should have did the past two seasons (but I would exclude the Pistons simply because they've raped the Magic all decade; there's nothing you can do about that rofl).

That probably has more to do with the Pistons being good for most of the decade than anything else.

This team needs a makeover or a system that makes use of the players it has in place if this team wants to beat the top teams in a series. Probably a bit of both honestly. Whether the change comes internally or externally doesn't matter, it just has to happen.

 

[DerrickRose]

I guess it's impossible to debate about what Lewis can actually post up on, but I have never seen him post up on a 4 in his career; only 3's. I can only assume he cannot post up on 4's. Lamar Odom may not be the best post defender, but he is at least a natural four and is as long if not longer than Lewis. I don't think he would have even won an extra game for them.

Kevin Garnett is self-explanatory.

Again, the other players not playing well is mainly because there's no movement. Give Richardson and Redick some screens. Run the pick and roll with Bass and Howard. You've got a lot of guys who can get out and run; do it some more.

No movement, plus one playmaker and a bunch of average passers. Miami (and Boston's) defensive plan was basically to stay close to their bodies and make their passing lanes limited. That means they can only pass to one or two Magic players at the most who are most likely being covered defensively. This makes it harder a good pass without turning the ball over. It also makes it harder to shoot because in order to get a good look at the basket, you need a good pass. You can't make a good pass if someone is staying on your body.

The roster before the trade simply did not have good passers. Only good shooters. Vince Carter, as much as I hate to say this, was an overrated passer.

I guess they were looking more about shots from Arenas than passing, but he's definitely helped over Duhon. He's averaged about 4/5 assists which is great.

Edit: Oh, and you don't have to pay attention to this, but I also noticed that you said the pace of the game needed to be faster. You would be correct (and the trade fixed that issue). The Magic were slow with Vince Carter and needed to get a faster guy at the wings who could be a threat on the break.

John Salmons could have been that guy and he was a target at some point.. but they need someone more athletic and more of a slasher.

That probably has more to do with the Pistons being good for most of the decade than anything else.

Maybe so (since the curse has finally lifted post 2009), but I really don't expect any Magic team in the past to beat any of those Billups/Sheed/Hamilton teams (The Magic Killers Inc).

Billups is stronger than Nelson and would constantly post up on him.

No swingman on the Magic could EVER guard Hamilton around screens.

Sheed can guard both Howard AND Lewis; one of the few bigmen who are capable of doing so. Heck, he attacked Howard and could put him in foul trouble.

The Pistons had match-up problems on all parts of the floor.

 

[fmsYEAH]

I guess it's impossible to debate about what Lewis can actually post up on, but I have never seen him post up on a 4 in his career; only 3's. I can only assume he cannot post up on 4's. Lamar Odom may not be the best post defender, but he is at least a natural four and is as long if not longer than Lewis. I don't think he would have even won an extra game for them.

Kevin Garnett is self-explanatory.

He's 6'10". he's smart on the offensive end. As I said, they didn't need to post him up every possession they could. Just enough to keep the defenses modest. Mismatches can also arise when there's a lot of ball movement (hint hint Magic).

No movement, plus one playmaker and a bunch of average passers. Miami (and Boston's) defensive plan was basically to stay close to their bodies and make their passing lanes limited. That means they can only pass to one or two Magic players at the most who are most likely being covered defensively. This makes it harder a good pass without turning the ball over. It also makes it harder to shoot because in order to get a good look at the basket, you need a good pass. You can't make a good pass if someone is staying on your body.

This is when you know your offense isn't as good as you think it is.

While the Magic are filled with rather average passers, you don't need exceptional passers all around the roster to make an efficient offense.

Take for example the motion offense of the Pistons, who made use of a crapload of screens to get open shots for Rip Hamilton. Is Hamilton what you'd call a great passer? What about Tayshaun Prince? Sheed? Big Ben? The only passer that was great on that team was Billups.

All you need from the players in a systematic offense like that is to know where a player will be and make sure the ball gets to them. Is it easy to learn? No, but if they want to win, they're gonna need something more complicated than "dribble, dribble, pass to Dwight, get ball back, take contested 3".

Against a physical team like Boston, that's why moving works. Make them go through/around screens, create mismatches, keep them moving. The Lakers aren't exactly the toughest team around, but they can score on the Celtics efficiently because there's a lot of movement in the triangle. The Magic don't need a system that complex, but just get them moving for the love of god.

The roster before the trade simply did not have good passers. Only good shooters. Vince Carter, as much as I hate to say this, was an overrated passer.

Inexcusable. They're NBA players. You don't need touchdown passes every possession, or hell, every pass. You just need them to execute. Make the right pass.

I guess they were looking more about shots from Arenas than passing, but he's definitely helped over Duhon. He's averaged about 4/5 assists which is great.

He's also averaging about 2.4 TOs since he's gotten to Orlando, compared to 4 assists. For the entire season, it's 5 assists to 3 TOs per game.

Edit: Oh, and you don't have to pay attention to this, but I also noticed that you said the pace of the game needed to be faster. You would be correct (and the trade fixed that issue). The Magic were slow with Vince Carter and needed to get a faster guy at the wings who could be a threat on the break.

John Salmons could have been that guy and he was a target at some point.. but they need someone more athletic and more of a slasher.

Maybe they should have gotten Corey Maggette then.

What's done is done though. The Magic didn't chase after certain players. With what they have at the moment, they're pretty much gonna have to rely on an internal fix.

Maybe so (since the curse has finally lifted post 2009), but I really don't expect any Magic team in the past to beat any of those Billups/Sheed/Hamilton teams (The Magic Killers Inc).

Billups is stronger than Nelson and would constantly post up on him.

No swingman on the Magic could EVER guard Hamilton around screens.

Sheed can guard both Howard AND Lewis; one of the few bigmen who are capable of doing so. Heck, he attacked Howard and could put him in foul trouble.

The Pistons had match-up problems on all parts of the floor.

Billups>Nelson was a matchup problem.

No one on the Magic being able to guard Hamilton is a combination of a good system in place by Detroit and mediocre defenders in Orlando.

I still question Sheed to this day for not posting up (kind of like Lewis, only his seems more voluntary), when even at this old age he was a great post player (Game 7 against the Lakers). Despite that, yeah, he was a great post defender.

 

[DerrickRose]

He's 6'10". he's smart on the offensive end. As I said, they didn't need to post him up every possession they could. Just enough to keep the defenses modest. Mismatches can also arise when there's a lot of ball movement (hint hint Magic).

Do you really think height is all it takes to post up? It takes STRENGTH too, you know. Lewis is not going to post up on Kevin Garnett. That is just asking too much. He is too long and athletic. Not to mention he's an actual big man; Lewis is just a tall small forward honestly. Lamar Odom makes more sense I suppose but if you aren't going to score a lot with it, I see no point in going there. Being creative on purpose isn't really going to scare the other team into double teaming unless it actually works.

http://www.lamarodom.com/index.php?q=biography/3

Lewis is an efficient offensive post-player at the 3 and 3 only and he has never shown any reliable efficiency against 4 players (even at the same height; you still got to account for wingspan and Odom and Garnett have LARGE wing spans). I'm pretty sure I can trust his history over what you think he can do.

Inexcusable. They're NBA players. You don't need touchdown passes every possession, or hell, every pass. You just need them to execute. Make the right pass.

That's a little too easy to say. Passing is a skill you either have by the age 30 or you don't. Most of the traded players were already in their prime. They weren't going to learn how to make efficient passes around good perimeter defense. You can watch the Miami or Atlanta games to see what I'm talking about if you want. In fact, Jameer Nelson was absent in one of those Atlanta games and it was the worst perimeter play I've ever seen. It is a downright insult to have Josh Smith guard Carter all day and get away with it.

The difference between Hamilton and Redick (Redick is the only exceptional "off the ball shooter" they had, honestly) is that Hamilton is more skilled at it than Redick is. Not many Magic players can even play off the ball. Like I said, they were only really good at one thing. Vince Carter is.. Vince Carter.

We can talk about ball movement and all that but having record low assists throughout the season tells me passing was a problem. Now they get more assists as soon as they bring Turkoglu and their offense jumps up a notch. The problem solved.

 

[fmsYEAH]

Do you really think height is all it takes to post up? It takes STRENGTH too, you know. Lewis is not going to post up on Kevin Garnett. That is just asking too much. He is too long and athletic. Not to mention he's an actual big man; Lewis is just a tall small forward honestly. Lamar Odom makes more sense I suppose but if you aren't going to score a lot with it, I see no point in going there. Being creative on purpose isn't really going to scare the other team into double teaming unless it actually works.

http://www.lamarodom.com/index.php?q=biography/3

Lewis is an efficient offensive post-player at the 3 and 3 only and he has never shown any reliable efficiency against 4 players (even at the same height; you still got to account for wingspan and Odom and Garnett have LARGE wing spans). I'm pretty sure I can trust his history over what you think he can do.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hole.

I never stated height is all you need to be a good post player. Likewise, strength isn't everything. Just look at Dwight.

I likewise never stated that he should fight against players like KG or Odom head-on in the post constantly.

Post moves aren't just bang inside, go for a hook/dunk when you get real close. It's about position. Get a bit of distance, take a turn around jumper. Pump-fakes, pivoting, how does your opponent respond?

It's an option. I never said anything suggesting Lewis should be seeking to post up Odom or KG or any 4 that can play post defense on a consistent basis.

That's a little too easy to say. Passing is a skill you either have by the age 30 or you don't. Most of the traded players were already in their prime. They weren't going to learn how to make efficient passes around good perimeter defense. You can watch the Miami or Atlanta games to see what I'm talking about if you want. In fact, Jameer Nelson was absent in one of those Atlanta games and it was the worst perimeter play I've ever seen. It is a downright insult to have Josh Smith guard Carter all day and get away with it.

It's easy to make efficient passes if you run an efficient offense.

You don't need touchdown passes, you don't need ridiculously fancy passes. You just need the right one. A good system makes it easy to get passes off.

Yes, maybe it is easy to say "They're NBA players, they should know how to pass". But for the kind of passing I'm talking of, yes, most NBA players should have that level. Ffs, you don't need Steve Nash levels of passing ability to pass to the guy next to you coming off a screen.

The difference between Hamilton and Redick (Redick is the only exceptional "off the ball shooter" they had, honestly) is that Hamilton is more skilled at it than Redick is. Not many Magic players can even play off the ball. Like I said, they were only really good at one thing. Vince Carter is.. Vince Carter.

Hamilton's better at it yes, he's one of the best at it. He's just a better player than Redick is too.

However, that doesn't mean Redick wouldn't do well in a motion offense. Actually, it fits his style of play probably the best. He's moves great without the ball. He's a good shooter. He's a smart kid, he doesn't make many mistakes.

He doesn't even need to score all that much. Just by moving around, forcing the opponent to react you're doing a fantastic job. You're putting them into a position of "make a mistake, I get an open shot".

We can talk about ball movement and all that but having record low assists throughout the season tells me passing was a problem. Now they get more assists as soon as they bring Turkoglu and their offense jumps up a notch. The problem solved.

We're back to 2008-09. They're not beating the Lakers in a series. They're not beating the Celtics in a series. They're not beating the Spurs in a series. I'm not convinced they'd beat the Heat in a series either. Is that your definition of a championship caliber team?

 

[DerrickRose]

Post moves aren't just bang inside, go for a hook/dunk when you get real close. It's about position. Get a bit of distance, take a turn around jumper. Pump-fakes, pivoting, how does your opponent respond?

It's an option. I never said anything suggesting Lewis should be seeking to post up Odom or KG or any 4 that can play post defense on a consistent basis.

Well the "option" simply isn't there enough to take advantage of.

Yes, maybe it is easy to say "They're NBA players, they should know how to pass". But for the kind of passing I'm talking of, yes, most NBA players should have that level. Ffs, you don't need Steve Nash levels of passing ability to pass to the guy next to you coming off a screen.

And I'm not talking about "Steve Nash" level. I mean put the ball on the floor and kick. Not many of the Magic players could do that around good perimeter defenses. in the 10 series against the Celtics, KG stayed glued to Lewis. That is one of the main reasons why the production from him lacked: he's not a threat if you don't leave his body at all.

Same thing for Pietrus. He's just a shooter. Same thing for Richardson. He's just a shooter (over 60-70% of these guys shots are 3 point shots... I'm not kidding!). The only guys who have offense that can be created on their own are probably Redick, Jameer, and Vince at that point. Every other player heavily relies on a draw from at least one of these guys, and if these guys can't make that draw (which is really no fault of anybody but the lack of the ability to draw a second defender), and people play Howard one-on-one, then they struggle offensively and are forced to play outside IN rather than inside out. Howard could get his 30+ or whatever.

The games this had happened in or partially happened in:

1st Heat game
Blazers game
Partially in Denver
ALL three Atlanta games

He doesn't even need to score all that much. Just by moving around, forcing the opponent to react you're doing a fantastic job. You're putting them into a position of "make a mistake, I get an open shot".

That's typically how Redick plays off the bench anyway, but it simply isn't enough to just say "Just run screens for Redick. Offense solved!" No offense to Redick or anything, but he isn't going to solve the entire ultimate problem with the lack of skill on the perimeter.

To continue with this, sure, they could install a "motion offense", but it wouldn't fit the skill of the team. They only really have one efficient off the ball player and Redick isn't really going to beat or change an entire 7 game series against the best defense(s) in the league.

Sometimes, you just have to say the skill level at certain positions is lacking.

We're back to 2008-09. They're not beating the Lakers in a series. They're not beating the Celtics in a series. They're not beating the Spurs in a series. I'm not convinced they'd beat the Heat in a series either. Is that your definition of a championship caliber team?

Right now, I'd say only Lakers/Celtics are the ones I highly favor over the Magic. The others I would say 50/50 or lean a slight way to (that being the Heat, but only slight for now).

I guess this is more of a subjective feeling and exposure to the team than anything.

 

[fmsYEAH]

Well the "option" simply isn't there enough to take advantage of.

That's because his number was never called to go into the post.

There is no way through the entire length of the game that Lewis is going to be guarded every single possession by someone can stop him in the post.

And I'm not talking about "Steve Nash" level. I mean put the ball on the floor and kick. Not many of the Magic players could do that around good perimeter defenses. in the 10 series against the Celtics, KG stayed glued to Lewis. That is one of the main reasons why the production from him lacked: he's not a threat if you don't leave his body at all.

They're not good at it because it's not part of the system, so they have no practice doing it. There's no "kick the ball out to an open shooter". It's moving the ball around, move around the court, set up a screen to get a guy free, pass to the free player, see how the defense scrambles from there. Do they leave him open? Does the defense collapse and they scramble towards him with 2 or more defenders? Do they overcommit?

Most players go through more than one kind of system throughout their careers. I refuse to believe that the Magic players are all incapable of learning a more sophisticated offense if given the time.

Same thing for Pietrus. He's just a shooter. Same thing for Richardson. He's just a shooter (over 60-70% of these guys shots are 3 point shots... I'm not kidding!). The only guys who have offense that can be created on their own are probably Redick, Jameer, and Vince at that point. Every other player heavily relies on a draw from at least one of these guys, and if these guys can't make that draw (which is really no fault of anybody but the lack of the ability to draw a second defender), and people play Howard one-on-one, then they struggle offensively and are forced to play outside IN rather than inside out. Howard could get his 30+ or whatever.

I'm well aware the Magic consist of a great amount of 3 point shooters. How else could they have been one of the top teams in 3 pointers attempted and made the past 2 seasons?

You're suppose to be competing for a title, yet your offense is stagnant. This is a problem.

If your guys can't create shots on their own, change your system to one that lets them. You have a roster filled with spot up shooters and very little creativity one on one. Why not a change?

That's typically how Redick plays off the bench anyway, but it simply isn't enough to just say "Just run screens for Redick. Offense solved!" No offense to Redick or anything, but he isn't going to solve the entire ultimate problem with the lack of skill on the perimeter.

You're looking at things in specific spots instead of the overall picture.

Running screens for Redick gives you an option for your offense.

Running screens for Richardson likewise does a similar thing (think Phoenix. Richardson does pretty damn well without the ball in his hands).

Putting Arenas one on one is yet another option the Magic can take advantage of.

Penetrations by Nelson is another one.

Posting up Dwight is one they've been using for a while.

When they had Lewis, posting him up was an option.

You've got a good roster with Nelson, Richardson, Arenas, Bass, Howard. These guys can all go out and run. Richardson and Redick do well when they're moving.

I'll again point to the Piston's motion offense just as a comparison. Is Hamilton a player that's good at creating his own shot? What about Prince? Billups is arguable.

Yes, I am well aware that Billups/Hamilton in their prime is a superior backcourt to any kind the Magic can suit up. But they've got a good enough PG in Nelson and nice movement SGs in Redick and Richardson.

The threat of a possibility is better than no threat at all. This is why someone like Kobe is still dangerous when he's having an off-night; he doesn't let his misses bother him so he still operates like normal, so you still commit to him to prevent him from getting anything going, which makes it easier for him to hit open teammates.

To continue with this, sure, they could install a "motion offense", but it wouldn't fit the skill of the team. They only really have one efficient off the ball player and Redick isn't really going to beat or change an entire 7 game series against the best defense(s) in the league.

I'm only using the Hamilton aspect of the motion offense to suggest something the Magic could be doing.

From games I've watched with him with Nash, Richardson moves very well without the ball in his hands. Redick, as mentioned, does likewise. Bass should set some sturdy screens. Rotations off screens can give Turkoglu some mismatches, or an open shot.

Sometimes, you just have to say the skill level at certain positions is lacking.
Right now, I'd say only Lakers/Celtics are the ones I highly favor over the Magic. The others I would say 50/50 or lean a slight way to (that being the Heat, but only slight for now).

I guess this is more of a subjective feeling and exposure to the team than anything.

The Magic are worse than they are because of the lack of a good system in place.

If the Lakers/Celtics played the Magic in a series, I see both winning in 5-6 games easy. Spurs I see winning solidly in 6. Heat are the only iffy ones, but I would give them the edge. It'd mainly depend on which players are playing better in that series honestly; they're both not that good.

I'm of the opinion that Van Gundy's system with the player personnel is a poor one for a team with a ring in mind. You disagree with me, and that's alright.

 

[Randombobman]

Ron Artest gets thrown out of the Clippers-Lakers game for essentially being Ron Artest. Baron Davis, Lamar Odom and Blake Griffin were also ejected with 5.7 remaining in the game.
Oh jeez, I was laughing my ass off at this. The refs threw out Artest and Davis for trying to restrain Odom and Griffin from tearing into each other. Guess they didn't wear their diapers that day and didn't want to shit themselves.

 

[HeroMasaki]

Tear into each other? Griffin wanted no part of that fight, he was obviously taking the high road. Odom was just mad as hell that he was getting styled on by a Rookie and the Clippers.

Speaking of the CLippers.... The Clippers! What am I watching!?

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Blake Griffin is a really special talent. I think there have only been 4 or 5 rookies to average 20 and 10 in their rookie season, all legends of the game. The only one I can remember off the top of my head is Wilt. Last night on NBA TV they showed the only rookie to have a 47+ pts and 14+ rebs game was Michael Jordan.

 

[fmsYEAH]

There have been more than just 4-5 guys who got 20/10 in their rookie season.

22/12 though? There's only been like 6 or 7 players in history to ever pull that off their rookie season, and all but one are HoFers. The only who isn't? Shaq.

Watching Griffin play is entertaining as hell. Sooooo much raw talent. It's going to be insane when he takes his game to the next level.

 

[YTP]

I love Blake Griffin. Hate how ESPN is making him their little poster boy.

 

[DerrickRose]

In other news, Chris Bosh needs to grow some balls, I still have a problem with the Heat's offense, lol Mavs once again, the Clippers are trolling us, and Jason Richardson is still a horrible individual defender (but not as bad as James Jones!)

There is no way through the entire length of the game that Lewis is going to be guarded every single possession by someone can stop him in the post.

Fair enough. I understand that this is merely a suggestion and I am probably being too critical of it as you more than likely have tons of others (personally, I think after exhausting enough effort, the trades finally happened since Lewis just wasn't working anymore at any position or offense).

Most players go through more than one kind of system throughout their careers. I refuse to believe that the Magic players are all incapable of learning a more sophisticated offense if given the time.

Hmm. Let's take a look at the trade or benched players.

Mickael Pietrus - Pretty much has always been a spot-up guy for the Warriors and Magic. Very low IQ. I believe he's self-explanatory.

Quintin Richardson - Same deal. He's been everywhere though, but he still takes over half of his shots as threes no matter where he went. High IQ but.. just really only has been good at one thing.

Rashard Lewis - He's good at passing out of the post, but that's all I know.

Vince Carter - I've honestly analyzed most of his first season in Orlando, and he was overrated as a passer. He was the second best passer.. but for some reason he could just never draw a second defender.

Duhon - He was okay. Offensively, teams have laid off of him and he's only been passive. So, immediate bench as he did nothing but stall the offense.

Redick - Okay passer but tends to not do so well against the top defenses.

Outside of Jameer and Howard were just standard big men who don't really play in the backcourt.

After some long realization now, it's probably not just passing as I originally thought. Just a lack of creation on the perimeter in general. Either the players have played in systems so long that only required them to shoot standing still, or they never had the talent to begin with. Thus lies in the trades where you just get rid of useless guys for skilled guys.

Now, I could see what you mean by doing simple things (after all, they are NBA players), but I can assure you that the trade was at least necessary for Pietrus and Lewis. Pietrus has never, ever in his life learned anything more than dunking and shooting threes. Lewis, I've seen great things from, but it really seems like teams prepared for him better and finally found his weakness and just stayed close to him like Garnett did. He's been inefficient ever since the 09 season and has only gotten worse since. Changing positions with him and even running specific things for him has worked sometimes, but it hasn't helped in a 48 minute span.

From games I've watched with him with Nash, Richardson moves very well without the ball in his hands. Redick, as mentioned, does likewise. Bass should set some sturdy screens. Rotations off screens can give Turkoglu some mismatches, or an open shot.

Keep in mind that I thought we were talking about pre-trade. Post-trade, the offense is fantastic. There is no issue with passing whatsoever and yes, Van Gundy has ran pretty much everything you've said about Turkoglu and Richardson.

I'm of the opinion that Van Gundy's system with the player personnel is a poor one for a team with a ring in mind. You disagree with me, and that's alright.

Well, I guess all we can ultimately do is wait and see.

To me, coaching is probably more like a chess match (... or Pokemon!). You create line-ups, defensive and offensive strategies that are the most efficient against whichever team you're facing. This, obviously depends on the coach (and let's not forget, coaching staff as a whole).

So, you essentially work with what you have and "I don't have enough talent" can't always be an excuse. I see that now; at the same time, however, I'm probably not the ultimate authority on judging these kind of things because I (and admittedly, all of us) lack the required knowledge.

.....unless you're judging Mike Brown's offense. That's the only exception. ;)

Edit: Quit drop in: I had a feeling Miami's offense still had problems against zone and paint campers.

 

[fmsYEAH]

Fair enough. I understand that this is merely a suggestion and I am probably being too critical of it as you more than likely have tons of others (personally, I think after exhausting enough effort, the trades finally happened since Lewis just wasn't working anymore at any position or offense).

Whatever the reason for Lewis' struggles, Otis Smith obviously wanted a shakeup in the roster.

After some long realization now, it's probably not just passing as I originally thought. Just a lack of creation on the perimeter in general. Either the players have played in systems so long that only required them to shoot standing still, or they never had the talent to begin with. Thus lies in the trades where you just get rid of useless guys for skilled guys.

Now, I could see what you mean by doing simple things (after all, they are NBA players), but I can assure you that the trade was at least necessary for Pietrus and Lewis. Pietrus has never, ever in his life learned anything more than dunking and shooting threes. Lewis, I've seen great things from, but it really seems like teams prepared for him better and finally found his weakness and just stayed close to him like Garnett did. He's been inefficient ever since the 09 season and has only gotten worse since. Changing positions with him and even running specific things for him has worked sometimes, but it hasn't helped in a 48 minute span.

That is indeed a problem of the Magic, having a lot of guys on their roster who don't do a lot of anything outside standstill shooting. This is essentially because the offense relies a lot on Dwight doing his work down low which should hopefully draw double teams, which should lead to open shots. When you have teams that can afford to defend Dwight with just one player, then what do they do?

On a somewhat related note, I watched part of the Orlando/Boston game. As I expected, the Magic were as unimpressive as I thought they were. Boston scored on them at will; the Magic's defense got abused by everyone not named Nate Robinson. I saw one good post move by Dwight. Most of the shots I saw Dwight get in, he was already deep in the paint and in prime position for an easy hook/layup/dunk/whatever. Mediocre perimeter defense by Boston was what mainly kept Orlando in the game, as well as the free throw disparity for most of the game. The offense by Orlando was ugly, but they got good looks in transition.

Keep in mind that I thought we were talking about pre-trade. Post-trade, the offense is fantastic. There is no issue with passing whatsoever and yes, Van Gundy has ran pretty much everything you've said about Turkoglu and Richardson.

I disagree. The offense is still ugly. Against most teams, the Magic should have no problems scoring. Teams like Boston? You rely on highly efficient 3 point shooting to just stay in the game.

The good I did see were the following:

Attacking the defense in transition placed the Magic in great positions most of the time.

I did see Richardson getting a screens here and there, but nothing really complicated; I never saw more than one pass being made to the shooter. But it's better than nothing. To see the difference between the Magic's system and a good one, take a look at Ray Allen's play from the game (or any game). Watch how he's always in motion, going through multiple screens to get a good look. For a step further, watch the guy setting up the screen; depending on how the defense reacts, you see a lot of the players setting up the screens in position for an easy/good shot.

Turkoglu is ballin' with the Magic. Glad to see the guy in a system that works with his skills.

Well, I guess all we can ultimately do is wait and see.

To me, coaching is probably more like a chess match (... or Pokemon!). You create line-ups, defensive and offensive strategies that are the most efficient against whichever team you're facing. This, obviously depends on the coach (and let's not forget, coaching staff as a whole).

So, you essentially work with what you have and "I don't have enough talent" can't always be an excuse. I see that now; at the same time, however, I'm probably not the ultimate authority on judging these kind of things because I (and admittedly, all of us) lack the required knowledge.

.....unless you're judging Mike Brown's offense. That's the only exception. ;)

It's not like chess, because you never have two teams with the exact same pieces available to them. It's closer to Pokemon, but a bit more complex, mainly because of the number of variables. I can't quite put it into the right words right now.

"I don't have enough talent" would be correct as a poor excuse for a lot of teams. The correct one would be "I don't have the right talent". Not all players fit into every system obviously, and this is usually where a franchise should look to either change their coach or start looking for the "right" players, whether through a trade, the draft, or free agency. Getting talent just for the sake of talent isn't always a good idea.

Mike Brown is too easy to point out, that's why.

 

[DerrickRose]

Heat/Hawks turned out to be a fantastic game.

 

[Randombobman]

Yes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Now only San Antonio stands in the way of the Lakers taking #1 seed. Boston is still in it, as long as they don't get hurt anymore.