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Oh God, not another Wobbuffet discussion!

I still don't see how it's two turns of advantage. You have to use one of those turns to switch out Wobbuffet so that really shouldn't count IMO. Your setup Pokemon only gets to use one move before they can bring in their counter.

Their Pokemon use non-attack.
Wobby uses Encore.

Wobby switches out for setup Pokemon.
Their Pokemon use non-attack.

They switch to a counter.
Your Pokemon sets up.

And IMO the only setup that would be worth it is Belly Drum, since it's usually difficult to pull off and the payoff is a lot bigger than Dragon Dance, Calm Mind, Sub, or Swords Dance.
 
wobb trap teams are annoying since if you stat up on the encore with most shit they just switch to duggy (or magnezone for steels) and kill you

^if a pokemon uturns and wobb uses counter the switchin is in for alot of damage .-.
 
Hitit4three said:
What reasons?
Click to expand...

ok lets break it down


"this is a joke."

1) calling "this" a joke is either referring to this thread and its posters or referring to the efforts of Colin and people like Obi, AA and myself who have encouraged this and other tests on the ladder which are both "Insulted Other Member" infractions and technically "Repeated Offense" infractions. They're the latter when you consider this from the last thread I had to lock:

"as i said in the last tier/uber thread i had to lock and hinted at in my post on page 9, our administration is working with colin on this after discussion amongst ourselves held in our inside scoop forum specifically to keep it from the utter pointlessness of these poll threads."

on said page 9:

"did not read a post in this thread but i will say that manaphy, mew and dx-d are very, very unlikely to be tested, and lati@s will likely be tested and wobbuffet will definitely be tested. our administration is working with colin to test these on the ladder while competitor is finished up, and should competitor be completed sooner rathre than later we will test them there"

and over and over in this thread colin has stated why this is being tested: "I disagree that players should never have to do any testing. In essence, this is the best way to find out if Wobbuffet is broken" is on page 4. ultimifier has therefore proven that he hasn't read the thread but is still posting uninformed or at leased unbacked opinions when he stated that "this is a joke" without saying why.


"i am not playing shoddy again until wobboffet gets removed from ladder play."

2) this is pointless and does not promote good discussion if not backed by an explanation. To copy/paste straight form the stark mountain rules:

"Please keep the intelligence level of your posts at a respectable level This may sound a little harsh, but it is necessary. Provide some thoughts and reactions in your posts. Simplistic replies to threads are neither necessary, nor acceptable. If you make a statement, back it up! Do not post arguments without backing, or you will feel the wrath of the moderators. We hate that."

both 1) and 2) break this rule, but 1) can actually be construed as an insult as well which is why i separate it from 2)


"please hurry up with competitor so this shit can disappear"

3) straight from the forum-wide rules:

"Do not ask about release dates for the site, Competitor, or anything else please! They will be done when they are done."

chaos doesn't even let me or any of our staff that isn't coding competitor even remotely hint that it is taking too long and that they should be working on it regularly to appease the masses. there's no way i'm letting some random user with under 200 posts do it.


"and the online game can be run by someone with a brain"

4) blatant, direct insult to Colin and an indirect one to OBI, AA and those of us who have encouraged these tests on the ladder as aforementioned.


and this is all in the face of my most recent announcement that states that the rules of this forum need to be observed or you will be infracted. i hope this is clear enough for everyone
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
Okay I'ma try to make an attempt at some logical thinking here...just an attempt..

Okay, if Wobbuffet is so overcentralizing, and is so all-godly-ever so powerful, and leads to so many sweeps. Now stay with me here. WHAT IF YOU USE IT?! And it leads to those things? If Wobbuffet is causing the other team to rape yours, then maybe you should use it yourself in attempt to rape other teams.

For example, if Kyogre is allowed, would I bitch about it being allowed? Or would I double click Shoddy as fast as I can and make my starter a Kyogre followed by 8023902932 water types?

Shit I'd be looking at any chance to win. If you're bitching about disallowing something, chances are you're probably playing to not lose as opposed to winning. And if you are, disregard this cause nothing else can help you about it.
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People like to play an uncentralized metagame. That's why they don't want a Pokemon they think of centralizing in. Not all of their fun comes out of winning alone (not that allowing Kyogre allows them to win more easily). With your logic we may as well unban everything, or only allow one broken Pokemon, because hey, instead of whining about it we may as well just play a boring and lopsided metagame.
 
Hunter_RuLe said:
Unless you switch to a ghost like spiritomb. Also Uturn (not on Jirachi) generally suprises wobba the first time, so he might try to encore instead of counter.
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Jirachi is one of the few Pokemon that use U-Turn somewhat frequently, if anything, I'd think the Wobby player would be cautious about sending Wobby in on a Jirachi the first time he sees it.
 
Magmortified said:
Jirachi is one of the few Pokemon that use U-Turn somewhat frequently, if anything, I'd think the Wobby player would be cautious about sending Wobby in on a Jirachi the first time he sees it.
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True, I never said that wobby would switch into it though, I certainly wouldn't myself. Just pointing out that IF uturn is used, the wobby users won't expect it most of the time and may prefer to choice enore instead of counter.
 
Predictable things that are likely to use U-Turn:
Flygon
Jirachi
Jumpluff
Crobat
Ambipom
Swellow
Infernape
Azelf

Wobbuffet shouldn't even be in on most of them in the first place, and those that he should aren't strong enough to give him trouble. Additionally, many are choiced, so Wobbuffet would always counter.
 
the Lexx said:
Predictable things that are likely to use U-Turn:
Flygon
Jirachi
Jumpluff
Crobat
Ambipom
Swellow
Infernape
Azelf

Wobbuffet shouldn't even be in on most of them in the first place, and those that he should aren't strong enough to give him trouble. Additionally, many are choiced, so Wobbuffet would always counter.
Click to expand...

Suppose he suspects a U-Turn and uses Counter, won't the incoming pokemon take a lot of damage?
 
Exactly. My point was that U-Turn was predictable, and not that much of a counter - because either the Pokemon who have it wouldn't be vs Wobb in the first place, or the weaker/all physical ones (ambipom, etc) would get countered in an instant.
 
Hmm... It'd be interesting to see how Disable on Dusknoir would work with that to say the least. Of course, getting Dusknoir into Wobbuffet is the real issue to begin with.
 
If you want to use a move on Dusknoir just to ruin Wobbuffet, I think Mean Look is a better option than Disable. Of course, Wobbuffet will switch immediately on Dusknoir anyway.
 
Amazing Ampharos said:
If you want to use a move on Dusknoir just to ruin Wobbuffet, I think Mean Look is a better option than Disable. Of course, Wobbuffet will switch immediately on Dusknoir anyway.
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Didn't realize it learned it. Mean Look would be perfect if as you said.... Wobbuffet should be running away anyway from a physical ghost.
 
Well, at least you Mean Look whatever comes in, giving you a 'free' switch (without Encore, obviously).

If you want a move just to screw Wobbuffet, though, Skill Swap might be a better choice.

EDIT: Or Taunt, obviously.
 
So, uh, if that's actually your name, you're a decent secondary school student with bad spelling and grammar. Congrats? Calling the ideas in someone's post unintelligent isn't nearly the same thing as calling the person himself unintelligent. You'd do well to learn that before pursuing that line of defense.

Anyhow, your little rant up there is missing a few things. First, Wobbuffet's ability to switch in is much more limited in D/P than in previous generations. Improvements to Pokemon like Tyranitar and new heavy hitters like Garchomp and Infernape mean Wobb is getting killed before it can Counter or Mirror Coat (or in the case of Pokemon like Ttar and 'nape, Encore to see which spectrum they're attacking from). The increase in entry hazards and passive damage--especially now that people have realized Toxic Spikes are worth using and don't necessarily instantly lead to a loss to Hera further limits Wobbuffet's viability without increased team support in the form of Wish passers and Rapid Spinners. A support Pokemon who requires more support Pokemon isn't all that attractive.

Second, you don't seem to be all that aware of the benefits of the move U-Turn, and that it's carried by several prominent OU Pokemon, including some Infernape. This has been going on for months before Wobbuffet was even discussed for OU/BL demotion.

Third, many Pokemon who could be killed by your Wobbuffet to Dugtrio/Magnezone example could be just as easily killed by a simple switch to D/M or a slow U-Turn to D/M. The Shadow Tag ability is irrelevant in many of those situations to getting the KO on that Pokemon. A free turn of set-up is indeed powerful, but may not prove imbalanced. Addition of more stat-up sweepers may end up adding several more options to the metagame. Set-up sweepers already forgo the immediate power or speed advantage of Choice Band/Specs/Scarf, and their prevalence may lead to more defensive spreads using Psych Up, or increased viability of Unaware Bibarel. That isn't the overcentralization of requiring everyone to carry Toxic and a Shed Shell, and may prove beneficial to the metagame as a whole. Only testing can tell.
 
Is it just me... or is U-Turn a major advantage to Wobbuffet?

I came up with this idea because everyone is saying "U-Turn counters Wobbuffet", but I'm finding out quite the opposite. U-Turn can guarentee that Wobbuffet gets in if you have a slow/bulky U-Turner. If you have a fast U-Turner, you switch in a typical counter (like... Moltres vs Skarmory), U-Turn the heck out of there, and switch to Wobbuffet if Wobbuffet would do well. (like, in the Moltres vs Skarm case, I switch Moltres in, U-Turned while he switched to Metagross. I countered with Wobbuffet, it used agility... but it didn't matter... counter eventually got him for the OHKO)

I find U-Turn to be the advantage to Wobbuffet. The Wobbuffet user can always load his team up with U-Turners to take advantage of Wobbuffet's revenge-killing style (which U-Turn sets up very well), while the opponent has to basically put U-Turn on every pokemon to retain the same advantage that the Wobbuffet user has.
 
Metagross definitely loves to come into Moltres.

Trolling aside, I think Dragontamer brings up an interesting point. While U-Turn increases the amount of options that you have against Wobbuffet with a few Pokemon, it also makes it much easier to work with him.

"U-Turn to a Ghost beats Wobbuffet" is pretty sketchy by the way. That Ghost would need a physical move to do anything or something like Taunt, neither of which they'd usually have. Plus, it's the ONLY way to avoid the massive Counter damage.

Really, you can't draw a conclusion from this thread or its posts, however stupid or intelligent they may be. It'll be testing that does the trick...but before that we might have to draw a line somewhere of what :would: be over centralizing. Because defining such a line AFTER a test will obviously allow both sides to use their own standards to get their own right.
 
Metagross definitely loves to come into Moltres.
Click to expand...
Actually... you're right. WTF was my opponent thinking >_> Either that, or I'm mixing up battles here. Actually, it could have been my U-Turn Azelf, that would make more sense... Moltres and Azelf were my U-Turn test pokemon. Metagross probably comes into Azelf (but still, wtf? Azelf uses Flamethrower to keep Weavile away...). I didn't save the log, but the idea is there.

Either way, my opponent was an idiot. But U-Turn helped.
 
Here's something I realized. Wobba is definitley Uber in my opinion. But since Colin forced us to put our money where our mouths are, we should just be testing it instead of yelling about how cheap a free Belly Drum on something like Linoone is (hint: Try Sub-Flailing behind that BD for maximum awesome, or using the STAB Extremespeed, or the Gluttony Salac Berry).

Firstly, some of the hype that "one turn of set-up is devastating" is kinda overhyped. I mean, some people put Life Orb on Dugtrio, whose advantage is that he can use Choice Band with easy prediction! These people fear that one turn of set-up. Seriously? If your team is 6-0'd by not-Dragonite after a DD or Swords Dance, fix your fucking team.

tldr: Test it with us, shut the fuck up, and we'll find out on the 7th.
 
I wanted to mention that the very best method of killing Wobbuffet is a OHKO move (Horn Drill, Fissure, etc.). Banning these moves does make Wobbuffet more powerful than it otherwise would be. As a side note, banning them also makes stall teams more powerful.

I'm not saying that they should be unbanned necessarily, but it should be noted that one is a check on the other's power. Just as Obi was talking about how unbanning one Über is centralizing while unbanning several might not be, unbanning Wobbuffet without unbanning OHKO moves gives Wobbuffet another slight edge to its already considerable power.

P.S. Colin, please, please, please fix the Shoddy bugs that make Wobbuffet more powerful than it is. I'm talking about Counter reflecting all the damage from multi-hit moves and Skill Swap not allowing a switch from Wobbuffet (these are both in the Bug Tracker, so forgive me if they've been fixed already).
 
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