Ok I'm posting this because Alice is lazy (Wobbuffet "discussion")

[obi]

Event moves aren't being removed because of Tickle Wobbuffet. Seriously, stop talking just to hear yourself talk. You do no one any favors by posting supposition.

My problem with logs is that people will only post those logs that support their viewpoint. Few are going to be posting the logs where Wobbuffet doesn't do anything because that's not interesting. It's like the Texas Sharpshooter. First you fire, then you draw the targets around the bullet holes. Bullseye every time.

 

[phalanx]

well half the time wobby sits there doing revenge kills...why would we post a log of that?
why would those of us who hate wobby show a log of it being beat (that's the person defending it's job)

 

[SubVersion]

My problem with logs is that people will only post those logs that support their viewpoint. Few are going to be posting the logs where Wobbuffet doesn't do anything because that's not interesting. It's like the Texas Sharpshooter. First you fire, then you draw the targets around the bullet holes. Bullseye every time.

That's hilarious. A good chunk (if not all) of the Uber Pokemon could potentially backfire in an OU match and not get a chance to do anything. That doesn't mean when someone posts a log of said Uber Pokemon absolutely kicking ass, their log "doesn't count" because it only shows one side of the argument.

If it is shown through logs that Wobbuffet can fuck the metagame, then that really should be all that matters, regardless of whether it fucks it all the time.

 

[Bologo]

If it is shown through logs that Wobbuffet can fuck the metagame, then that really should be all that matters, regardless of whether it fucks it all the time.

Uhh what? What do you even define as "fucking the metagame" in the first place?

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Event moves aren't being removed because of Tickle Wobbuffet. Seriously, stop talking just to hear yourself talk. You do no one any favors by posting supposition.

Its a valid point to bring up though. I haven't seen anyone bitching about event moves until Ticklefett popped up, and even then people weren't bitching about event moves, just Wobbuffet. We had event moves in Netbattle and we had them when Shoddy popped up. I'm pretty sure we have more people bitching about Garchomp and Blissey being uber then we do about event moves.

Why the sudden need to remove them? Obviously you can't be selective with event moves, which ones to keep or remove, but removing all of them is still absurd. It feels to me like we're trying to clean up the environment around Wobbuffet to let it play instead of just kicking Wobb back up a tier. We lose much more variety by removing event moves then we do rebanning Wobbuffet.

Yet again another reason for me not to care about my ladder ranking (which has gone up about 200 points since using the Ticklefett strategy). Why invest time "trying to win" when the environment can suddenly shift in such a drastic fashion? Some people might have WishBliss as a central part of their team, and now we're randomly removing it.

Shit, we might as well start removing event only Pokemon seeing as we can't prove what random IV/Nature/Move set limitations might have been around during distribution.

 

[the voice of reason]

I don't think how Wobbofet affects the metagame is really the primary concern here. As far as I can tell, apart from a few specific (avoidable) situations of brokeness and a bunch of situations of cheapness, Wobufett (or however the hell it's supposed to be spelled) is not permanently on ban watch because he is a deadly threat to the fairness of the metagame. He is controversial because he sucks to use and he sucks to fight against. He's probably the single most unpleasent, boring pokemon that you could possibly use on a team. The reason why his usage is fairly low is not that people consider him cheating, but that people hate to actually use him.

That having been said, effectively guaranteeing a free switch to a counter reeks of cheapness to me, I just think there needs to be more reason than just that for banning a pokemon from OU. I guess Wobofett being plainly and simply a pain in the ass sorta counts. Remember, people, it's a game, and the point is to have fun. If Wobbuffett prevents people from having fun, then by all means, he should be banned.

 

[SubVersion]

Uhh what? What do you even define as "fucking the metagame" in the first place?

I'm not even attempting to define what "fucking the metagame" means, largely because there probably is no universal definition (if you're into stats it could relate to usage and overcentralization, if you're into actually playing the game it could be something as simple as how enjoyable a metagame with Wobbuffet is), but also because the point of that post was only to point out how silly it is to discount logs that show Wobb doing well just because he doesn't always do that well.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The only competitive RSE log I've seen involving Farfetch'd had him sweep 6-0. If we just evaluate Pokemon's potential from the logs that get posted, Farfetch'd would be the best Pokemon in RSE or at the very least a dangerous sweeper. Just because Farfetch'd isn't always dangerously sweeping doesn't mean that it can't dangerously sweep. Clearly that's absurdity to think of a Pokemon like that; those sorts of gimmick logs where one side really screwed up and/or one side got really lucky and/or one side had a bad team that was wide open to a particular threat don't prove anything.

There's a thorough topic about event moves in Policy Review; it would seem tedious to repeat the arguments about why they have to go. As per the relation to Tickle Wobbuffet, it actually does exist but not how you'd think. I saw this thread way back and asked "is that set even legal?". The conclusions derived from my exploration of whether this dangerous threat was even a legal Pokemon resulted in the conclusion.

 

[Lyfsaho]

That's hilarious.
If it is shown through logs that Wobbuffet can fuck the metagame, then that really should be all that matters, regardless of whether it fucks it all the time.

I think a couple of people already showed you why your argument is the hilarious one here, so I'll leave it at that. I'd gladly battle some random noob with cleffa and post the log here if it would make any difference in it's Tier placing.

I'm pretty sure we have more people bitching about Garchomp and Blissey being uber then we do about event moves.

Why the sudden need to remove them? Obviously you can't be selective with event moves, which ones to keep or remove, but removing all of them is still absurd. It feels to me like we're trying to clean up the environment around Wobbuffet to let it play instead of just kicking Wobb back up a tier. We lose much more variety by removing event moves then we do rebanning Wobbuffet.

Ticklefett was just a recent obvious case of the abuse of event moves, but it exists since WishBliss. Nintendo does not release any additional specific information regarding their own events, and there have been some in which all released pokemon were of the same nature and with the same IVs, and others which weren't. Let's say every third event move is in fact impossible to obtain with 31 IVs and a right nature; that would mean one in every three pokemon we've been using with an event move was illegal to begin with. Why not just allow HypnoPlot Crobat or AquajetBDAzumarill then?

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Ticklefett was just a recent obvious case of the abuse of event moves, but it exists since WishBliss. Nintendo does not release any additional specific information regarding their own events, and there have been some in which all released pokemon were of the same nature and with the same IVs, and others which weren't. Let's say every third event move is in fact impossible to obtain with 31 IVs and a right nature; that would mean one in every three pokemon we've been using with an event move was illegal to begin with. Why not just allow HypnoPlot Crobat or AquajetBDAzumarill then?

Because there is a pretty large difference between a few IVs and a completely illegal move set? But seriously, I was pointing out how there is really no one clamoring for the removal of event moves and how the timing and real lack of any discussion feels too.... convenient. I mean, testing? Theorymon? Discussion? Nope, just gone.

I mean, if this abuse has been so bad, why weren't people up in arms about the legality of WishBliss or anything else event related? I could be blind, but it seems like people have other issues with the current metagame, like unbanning random 600 BSTs and banning certain popular Pokes.

And my point on event only Pokes still stands. How do we know the IV/Nature limits on them? Might as well straight up ban them. RIGHT? I mean, we have to completely simulate the in game environment by completely eliminating everything we can't know (despite how they possibly exist on WiFi)... and by having a cancel button and the ability to pick and choose whatever HP you feel like.....

Regardless, if all event Pokemon aren't removed due to the same logic driving the removal of event moves then it would seem rather hypocritical.

And it sounds like so far the only thing we don't know fo' sho about Ticklefett is what kind of IV limits it has, but it seems reasonable that if it can be hatched with any nature that it could be hatched with any range of IVs.

But hey, I look forward to not having to worry about Shaymin. Oh shit, I don't think there has even been a Shaymin/Arceus event! Better get rid of those since we don't know what theoretical limitations will be placed on them during their distribution.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Because there is a pretty large difference between a few IVs and a completely illegal move set?

One is illegal, the other is illegal. I see no difference ._.

But seriously, I was pointing out how there is really no one clamoring for the removal of event moves and how the timing and real lack of any discussion feels too.... convenient. I mean, testing? Theorymon? Discussion? Nope, just gone.

What testing? We've had event moves for a while now, a big percentage of them probably illegal with the right nature and IVs to begin with, which clearly was a flaw. that flaw will be fixed. Flaws are constantly being fixed.

I mean, if this abuse has been so bad, why weren't people up in arms about the legality of WishBliss or anything else event related? I could be blind, but it seems like people have other issues with the current metagame, like unbanning random 600 BSTs and banning certain popular Pokes.

because in comparison to issues like the banning of Garchomp or unbanning of Deoxys-E, this problem is far less dramatical : a minor flaw, you could call it.

Regardless, if all event Pokemon aren't removed due to the same logic driving the removal of event moves then it would seem rather hypocritical.

how so? let's say, for the sake of pure supposition, a third of all event moves have a restricted nature and/or limited IVs - as we cannot possibly know which third, banning them all is the reasonable thing to do. There's no hypocrisy involved.

And it sounds like so far the only thing we don't know fo' sho about Ticklefett is what kind of IV limits it has, but it seems reasonable that if it can be hatched with any nature that it could be hatched with any range of IVs.

You're bringing this back to Ticklefett, which is not what this is about, but for the sake of your example - we do not even know that it can be hatched with any nature. The only proven statistics which several sites were able to provide was that it came in the form of Wynaut eggs which all hatched at lvl 5 in a japanese pokepark event from march-may 2005.

Anyway, this is a general implimentation, not something speficially brought about because of one or two particular cases. Obviously, more people will care about WishBliss than Refresh Metang, but that's just a logical consequence of the bigger picture.

 

[SubVersion]

I think a couple of people already showed you why your argument is the hilarious one here, so I'll leave it at that.

Sorry, what? I wasn't aware the purpose of this thread was to be an asshole to people without even attempting to provide any backing to it. If you think taking that jabs at me without even attempting to justify them is even remotely helpful to this discussion then you're completely mistaken.

The only competitive RSE log I've seen involving Farfetch'd had him sweep 6-0. If we just evaluate Pokemon's potential from the logs that get posted, Farfetch'd would be the best Pokemon in RSE or at the very least a dangerous sweeper. Just because Farfetch'd isn't always dangerously sweeping doesn't mean that it can't dangerously sweep. Clearly that's absurdity to think of a Pokemon like that; those sorts of gimmick logs where one side really screwed up and/or one side got really lucky and/or one side had a bad team that was wide open to a particular threat don't prove anything.

Your last sentence kind of makes everything that came before it kind of irrelevant. I imagine a Farfetch'd sweep would only come about when "one side really screwed up and/or one side got really lucky and/or one side had a bad team that was wide open to a particular threat", don't you? Obi was saying that even good logs don't really matter just because Wobbuffet doesn't always work. Comparing the validity of logs showing quality players playing with/against Wobbuffet to the logs where the planets align and Farfetch'd gets a clean sweep is a little absurd, in my opinion.

As an aside, I didn't suggest that "we just evaluate Pokemon's potential from the logs that get posted" as there's clearly more to it than that. I assume you got that impression from my "then that really should be all that matters", at which point I'd like to point out the context: "Fucking the metagame" is different to "Farfetch'd beating this one guy's team, once". Logs are just a way to illustrate the theorymon that's been going on for 11 pages now, and they're no less telling of his capabilities just because they don't always highlight his capability to lose.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Sorry, what? I wasn't aware the purpose of this thread was to be an asshole to people without even attempting to provide any backing to it. If you think taking that jabs at me without even attempting to justify them is even remotely helpful to this discussion then you're completely mistaken.

I just commented on your post to begin with because you were calling someone else's post hilarious and then backed it up by what i see as false logic. If i happened to offend you, I apologize.

Logs are just a way to illustrate the theorymon that's been going on for 11 pages now, and they're no less telling of his capabilities just because they don't always highlight his capability to lose.

The fact of the matter is, people who dislike wobbuffet and advocate a ban will only present us with logs favourable to their cause - even if a person of said faction loses 30 battles with wobbuffet, and wins 5, he will post the 5 which he won more often that not.

Anyhow, in fact, this is relatively irrelevant since in the end, the Smogon Tier system is based on usage, and I invite you to take a look at the blue blob's usage statistics, which could not be clearer.

 

[SubVersion]

I just commented on your post to begin with because you were calling someone else's post hilarious and then backed it up by what i see as false logic. If i happened to offend you, I apologize.

The difference being, I did actually provide reasoning to why I disagreed with Obi. Which is the purpose of this discussion, after all.

The fact of the matter is, people who dislike wobbuffet and advocate a ban will only present us with logs favourable to their cause - even if a person of said faction loses 30 battles with wobbuffet, and wins 5, he will post the 5 which he won more often that not.

I don't see why that's a problem. It's a given that any Pokemon isn't going to work all the time. Of those 42139 Garchomp usages, do you think that Garchomp worked as well as the player hoped even half the time? I don't; Even for a Pokemon as powerful as Chomp, you don't always get your own way. The point is, you could show me 20000 logs of Garchomp getting killed in some way or another and then just 10 logs where he's used in quality matches and works exceptionally well, and not even the sheer difference in numbers is going to convince me that Garchomp isn't a good Pokemon. If you don't think that quality players showing quality logs where Wobbuffet abuse does something significant are worthwhile in this discussion, then A) there's very little point in discussing it because it's obvious your opinion on Wobbuffet is already well and truly made up and B) you're at odds with several other people, most notably Jumpman.

Anyhow, in fact, this is relatively irrelevant since in the end, the Smogon Tier system is based on usage, and I invite you to take a look at the blue blob's usage statistics, which could not be clearer.

And then to illustrate the absolute folly of using pure usage statistics to prove anything with regards to tier placement, I'd point you to Garchomp, who couldn't possibly send up any more red flags looking at statistics alone yet has never seriously been considered for even a test ban and who, quite frankly, isn't really omnipotent despite being omnipresent.

 

[Jumpman16]

Wobbuffet doesn't HAVE to leave after he Encores. He could wait until you have 2-3 boosts under your belt before running off to the Psych Up pokemon.

WAIT WAIT WAIT... they can just switch out as soon a Wobbuffet leaves. Although, if it's a greedy piece of crap like Suicune it may stay in.

i wasnt aware that pokemon themselves were capable of following their own personal desires when they are under the control of their trainers...i would actually joke that you're talking about ingame where you only have 1-2 badges and a Lv 40+ Suicune will disobey you, but you can still actually switch it out whenever you want

 

[Odinwolf]

I think the whole "prove it" thing is getting a little bit ridiculous. The people saying it and just jamming their thumbs in their ears and ignoring what is being said. For several pages, people were saying "post battle logs to prove Wobb is broken in OU" and when people started posting battle logs, the response is "well, you aren't showing Wobb's downside so these don't count." Then we've got people who have specifically stated how much their Shoddy ranking has increased since switching to a Wobb team, but apparently that doesn't count either for some odd reason.

I think its unfair to the community of players here on Smogon to base the entire decision off of a single usage statistic. There is other evidence, that you all choose to ignore, that Wobb is unfair. On top of that, it appears that the community at large doesn't want Wobb included in the competitive game. I would imagine if we hosted some kind of official poll, the community would vote to ban Wobb to Ubers by a significant margin. If that's the case, why force it onto everyone to satisfy the philosophy of a small group? Why can't the tiers be prescriptive?

Communities of gamers have an opportunity to act as secondary game designers and decide not just "what works," but also "is this the BEST thing?" If the community feels that Wobb has a negative impact on game, for any reason, the community is not unreasonable in banning it, even if it wouldn't necessarily be the #1 most used pokemon while unbanned. There is more to game design than statistics and there is more to game balance than numbers. I think its the responsibility of the policy makers to be servants of the community, not elitists that dictate changes to satisfy their own philosophy. There are thousands of players that are effected by the decisions made by a few, so I would hope that the people with the power to force changes would listen to the community at large and make decisions that satisfy as many players as possible and are beneficial to everyone.

 

[Lyfsaho]

I think its unfair to the community of players here on Smogon to base the entire decision off of a single usage statistic.

I look forward to your revolutionizing idea concerning the entirety of Smogon's Tier List.

Communities of gamers have an opportunity to act as secondary game designers and decide not just "what works," but also "is this the BEST thing?" If the community feels that Wobb has a negative impact on game, for any reason, the community is not unreasonable in banning it, even if it wouldn't necessarily be the #1 most used pokemon while unbanned. There is more to game design than statistics and there is more to game balance than numbers. I think its the responsibility of the policy makers to be servants of the community, not elitists that dictate changes to satisfy their own philosophy. There are thousands of players that are effected by the decisions made by a few, so I would hope that the people with the power to force changes would listen to the community at large and make decisions that satisfy as many players as possible and are beneficial to everyone.

Your logic is exactly the OPPOSITE of the actual reality. According to you, Serebii.net would be the most preeminent pokemon site on the web because it has the most users and the sheer bulk of said users would dictate the Tier List.

As stated, what you are saying does not simply apply to one pokemon, it applies to the concept of the smogon tiering system as a whole. In my subjective view, Weezing is far from BL material - this is, however, completely irrelevant, even if I get 3000 other users to agree with me.

We're drifting off the original discussion a bit though, so i'd suggest we refocus on that.

 

[Odinwolf]

Lyfsaho, what I am advocating is not the tyranny of the masses or ignoring usage statistics when developing a tier list. What I am definitely against is the tyranny of the few and blind adherence to numbers. What I am suggesting is that some kind of balance is struck between statistical analysis and the wisdom of the players.

I think its fair for the community to say "This is what we think the competitive pokemon metagame should be. This is what we will enjoy playing." and for the tiers and the playing environments to be servants to that philosophy on certain levels. Blind adherence to statistics may create a balanced & fair metagame, but that doesn't make it fun or even the best possible competitive metagame. There is some level of "design" work that the community and the policy holders should be striving towards, instead of bowing down at the throne of statistics.

I could write pages and pages about it, but you are right, we are veering off topic. My beef is that people started doing exactly what was requested, posting battle logs demonstrating how powerful Wobb can be, but then that was being instantly discounted as too limited. There is only one thing certain people believe in, and that's raw numbers. They seem to be refusing to listen to anything else, even the other evidence that they specifically requested.

If anyone wants to take it up other bits of this discussion with me, feel free to email me or something. Please get back to posting Wobb evidence.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

One is illegal, the other is illegal. I see no difference ._.

So there are no shades of gray in this issue? You see no difference in the possibility of taking a bit less damage because of IVs (that no one can actually prove if they're limited or not) versus a Belly Drum Aqua Jet Azumarril which is clearly impossible to obtain because of breeding limitations?

What testing? We've had event moves for a while now, a big percentage of them probably illegal with the right nature and IVs to begin with, which clearly was a flaw. that flaw will be fixed. Flaws are constantly being fixed.

A flaw that no one has really considered a flaw, or even talked about it being even close to a flaw until recently. One that not many people even still feel is a flaw, and a flaw that we've been actively participating in since NetBattle.

because in comparison to issues like the banning of Garchomp or unbanning of Deoxys-E, this problem is far less dramatical : a minor flaw, you could call it.

And if it was so minor you'd think it would have been taken care of a long ass time ago. Hell, why did this minor flaw even make it into Shoddy in the first place? It isn't like the program itself decided to allow Blissey to use Wish or Wobb to use Tickle, someone had to actually put those into the simulation, and they clearly didn't view it as a flaw then.

So what changed?

how so? let's say, for the sake of pure supposition, a third of all event moves have a restricted nature and/or limited IVs - as we cannot possibly know which third, banning them all is the reasonable thing to do. There's no hypocrisy involved.

Again you missed my point. My point was that we should also remove Event only Pokemon; like Shaymin, Darkrai, etc. due to the same logic that event moves are being removed. If they're not, then the action of removing the event moves is clearly a hypocritical action that only was done as a quick fix to Ticklefett.

You're bringing this back to Ticklefett, which is not what this is about,

From what I understand, this entire thread is supposed to be about Ticklefett. Oddly enough, the removal of event moves directly impacts Ticklefett, and thus this dicussion.

 

[Syberia]

Again you missed my point. My point was that we should also remove Event only Pokemon; like Shaymin, Darkrai, etc. due to the same logic that event moves are being removed. If they're not, then the action of removing the event moves is clearly a hypocritical action that only was done as a quick fix to Ticklefett.

As far as I know, the only event pokemon being removed are those of which only a limited number were given out, with IVs and natures that were set before a player even received the pokemon. Anything that is SR-able in any form can be assumed to not be limited in such a way. For example, if there were no 31/31/31/31/31/31 Bold Wish Blisseys given away on the day of the event, such a Wish Blissey does not exist. However, if said Wish Blissey was SR-able, then it does exist, at least in theory.

As for the second part of your argument, I agree that for consistency's sake, Shaymin should be moved to Extended Game. Why allow a Japanese glitch that allows one to catch Shaymin, while not allowing the Japanese glitch that allows Crobat to get Hypnosis/Nasty Plot, or Azumarill to get Belly Drum/Aqua Jet?

 

[xcfrisco]

As for the second part of your argument, I agree that for consistency's sake, Shaymin should be moved to Extended Game. Why allow a Japanese glitch that allows one to catch Shaymin, while not allowing the Japanese glitch that allows Crobat to get Hypnosis/Nasty Plot, or Azumarill to get Belly Drum/Aqua Jet?

lol, i think its because Shaymin sucks and no one uses it. I always thought allowing Shaymin and Darkrai in, but banning Arcues was kind of weird. Is MissingNO allowed in RBY?

Back on topic, it would be REALLY interesting to see what the metagame of the majority would look like.

 

[Cathy]

Everything that is possible in the game is allowed unless we specifically ban it. The glitch in the Japanese version that allows you to get Shaymin is legal because we have not specifically banned it. The fact that something is a "glitch" does not play into whether it is banned. Something should only be banned if it breaks the game.

As for egg combinations, I can't really conceive of a justification for not allowing them. I've posted about it in the Policy Review forum.

As for Arceus, it is not legal on Shoddy Battle.

 

[Lesha]

Um, didn't the Wynaut egg from that one lady in the town with the hot springs in R/S/E have tickle? I SWEAR my Wynaut had Tickle on it...

 

[Bliksem]

Everything that is possible in the game is allowed unless we specifically ban it. The glitch in the Japanese version that allows you to get Shaymin is legal because we have not specifically banned it. The fact that something is a "glitch" does not play into whether it is banned. Something should only be banned if it breaks the game.

As for egg combinations, I can't really conceive of a justification for not allowing them. I've posted about it in the Policy Review forum.

As for Arceus, it is not legal on Shoddy Battle.

Based on the current stance on the topic you posted, there shouldn't be an issue with Wobbuffet, then. Should you guys decide to allow illegal combinations of moves, then it because Wobbuffet was released with Tickle, then it should be able to use the move with whatever IV/Nature setup the user wants, regardless of if Nintendo gave them specific natures. If you're going to disregard what is or is not possible in the current game, there's no reason to be so careful in regards to other situations.

For the record, I don't agree with this. I believe the metagame should focus only around Pokemon that all people are able to obtain. That means that people can't use Arceus and Shaymin yet. It means that people shouldn't be able to use Wish-Blissey unless its on WiFi and they actually obtained one. That's the way I feel it should be. When the glitch with Ditto was discovered when the game came out, many people were appalled and there was a massive 'wait-and-see' idealization to figure out if it was intended. The glitch was removed and people went about their day.

We really can't use outdated versions of games and pick-and-choose the mechanics we want to follow.

 

[Lyfsaho]

As for egg combinations, I can't really conceive of a justification for not allowing them. I've posted about it in the Policy Review forum.

That is a whole new proposition right there; one which does need to be made very sure of before being implemented. The potential number of new combinations of movesets and threats is staggering, and it would not be something as simple as you put it on said topic by any means.

In fact, one has to wonder whether in the end, far more would turn out to be broken than not. One step at a time.