Old Mon BST/Ability Change Discussion

I made an account on website just to tell you that Arbok is a very effective set up tank/sweeper in PU Singles and that this attack boost is very relevant; now Arbok will be even more menacing after a single Coil boost

Granted, Arbok does already OHKO or 2HKO a fair deal of the PU landscape at the moment that's not at all defense invested after a single Coil boost, but I wonder if this small attack boost will allow it to reliably 2HKO some defensive walls after a Coil boost?
"Trash" as in bad in the higher tiers. Fair point though. The Arbok buff is better than the meaningless SP.Def Ariados got.
 
I think everything has really been said by now. All the obvious winners of these buffs are going to see more play, or at least people will try them out after the game releases/the simulator updates. And all the losers appreciate the changes but won't be significantly better.

Either way it's PU so I don't get your point here
Just because it's a buff for a tier you don't care for, doesn't mean it's not noteworthy. Try to keep an open mind about other playstyles so we don't match the closeminded stereotype that other communities have of Smogonites.
 
Last edited:

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Just because it's a buff for a tier you don't care for, doesn't mean it's not noteworthy. Try to keep an open mind about other playstyles so we don't match the closeminded stereotype that other communities have of Smogonites.
Ur missing the point of my post. If it gets better in PU then good for it; I'm not here to tier bash (I'll save that for some future SPL thread in Inside Scoop 'cause that's all those threads ever devolve into anyway), and PU is no less important than OU or whatever. However, the main point I was getting across was that it doesn't really rectify it to the point where it'd raise a tier 'cause +10 attack on a Pokémon which really needs a bigger boost to more than just attack simply doesn't cut it, which is what the post he was responding to was talking about.
 
"Trash" as in bad in the higher tiers. Fair point though. The Arbok buff is better than the meaningless SP.Def Ariados got.
Thank you for acknowledging that the Attack boost is not irrelevant at all. And I agree Arbok is trash in the higher tiers lol; nobody's denying that!


Also, yes, Ariados's special defense boost is basically completely meaningless, because it's still not living jack shit specially. Even a defense boost would've been more slightly useful given that Ariados 4x resists Fighting but even then not really

I'm at least grateful GF bothered paying attention to Ariados at all; I'll take it over nothing, but Ariados could've really, really used even a 10+ Attack boost so its Sucker Punch/Poison Jab combo as an offensive Sticky Web/Toxic Spikes lead in PU Singles could be slightly more respectable. Or a 10+ Speed boost. Ariados doesn't deserve to speed tie with Probopass.

Either way it's PU so I don't get your point here
Did you even read what I wrote? BENDIEZ originally said that the Attack boost would be irrelevant even though it's very much not, which I pointed out. I'm not sure what your point is.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
The Masquerain buff is pretty odd. Not that it's bad, but it received the highest stat boost out of anyone (unless you count Farfetch'd / Swellow +25 boost in one stat).

Neutral Masquerain, after a Quiver Dance, gets to at least outspeed Dugtrio. That's not "wonderful" by any means, but at least gives it a Speed edge. The offensive boost is appreciated though. For example, after a Quiver Dance and with a Modest nature with no hold item Masquerain can 2HKO Skarmory a bit more reliably now with Ice Beam (and to be fair on this calculation - not every Skarmory runs Brave Bird and many have opted for Iron Head). It's certainly not amazing by any means, but it might drag it out of the depths of PU into NU. It really needs Tinted Lens for fucks sake, though. At least Intimidate gives it a little more breathing room to set up a Quiver Dance? ?_?

Outside of that, some small changes are definitely appreciated such as more weather abilities on Pokemon (Pelipper is basically on Cloud 9 right now). The Electrode one is hilarious - guess we need to at least Speed tie M-Aero?
 
The Masquerain buff is pretty odd. Not that it's bad, but it received the highest stat boost out of anyone (unless you count Farfetch'd / Swellow +25 boost in one stat).

Neutral Masquerain, after a Quiver Dance, gets to at least outspeed Dugtrio. That's not "wonderful" by any means, but at least gives it a Speed edge. The offensive boost is appreciated though. For example, after a Quiver Dance and with a Modest nature with no hold item Masquerain can 2HKO Skarmory a bit more reliably now with Ice Beam (and to be fair on this calculation - not every Skarmory runs Brave Bird and many have opted for Iron Head). It's certainly not amazing by any means, but it might drag it out of the depths of PU into NU. It really needs Tinted Lens for fucks sake, though. At least Intimidate gives it a little more breathing room to set up a Quiver Dance? ?_?

Outside of that, some small changes are definitely appreciated such as more weather abilities on Pokemon (Pelipper is basically on Cloud 9 right now). The Electrode one is hilarious - guess we need to at least Speed tie M-Aero?
Masquerain really did get DECKED out lol

Exor suggested they wanted Masquerain to be Araquanid's counterpart, given that it has the exact same BST after the stat boosts and both evolve from Bug/Waters. Which is so odd.

I have a question though, is it really important whether Masquerain can 2HKO Skarmory now? In both singles and doubles, I doubt Skarmory and Masquerain are gonna be in the same tiers.

Masquerain's main role is Baton Passing Quiver Dance, so I greatly prefer Intimidate to Tinted Lens, which would only help Masquerain if it was offensively attacking. I'm not sure how much offensive Masquerain we'll be seeing, actually. I think Masquerain's greater viability as a Quiver Dance Baton Passer will cement it around RU, but a specially offensive sweeper set would only work in NU at best.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Masquerain really did get DECKED out lol

Exor suggested they wanted Masquerain to be Araquanid's counterpart, given that it has the exact same BST after the stat boosts and both evolve from Bug/Waters. Which is so odd.

I have a question though, is it really important whether Masquerain can 2HKO Skarmory now? In both singles and doubles, I doubt Skarmory and Masquerain are gonna be in the same tiers.

Masquerain's main role is Baton Passing Quiver Dance, so I greatly prefer Intimidate to Tinted Lens, which would only help Masquerain if it was offensively attacking. I'm not sure how much offensive Masquerain we'll be seeing, actually. I think Masquerain's greater viability as a Quiver Dance Baton Passer will cement it around RU, but a specially offensive sweeper set would only work in NU at best.
The answer as far as 2HKOing Skarmory? Not 100% relevant considering tiers, but consider:

1) Mainly I OU and
2) PU has an asston of mons that I don't even know are really PU aside from some obvious ones
3) Mainly the point is to show that Masquerain's buff at least makes a marginal difference considering that, at one point, the same Masquerain a generation ago would not even 2HKO with Ice Beam (or if it did - would be a tougher situation).

You won't see Masquerain really breaking tiers anytime soon, though. Lacking Tinted Lens harms it as a sweeper to some extent and it having a multitude of other issues on top of it doesn't help. Though, as you said, it might help pull it to some higher tiers with Baton Passing and being able to actually use some of the power if needed (though to what extent, I don't know).
 
Is Gamefreak trying to make weather return as a more common playstyle without it being oversaturated? Because I certainly wouldn't mind! Finally Hail teams aren't left in the dust, it only took them 3 generations to release an ability that doubles speed in hail.

Also let's not forget that Pelipper has +10 to it's Sp. Atk, under rain that can actually dent a few things. Considering it gets hurricane as well it can be a more offensive, and it has Defog... I feel like this can outclass Politoed as a rain setter.
 
Is Gamefreak trying to make weather return as a more common playstyle without it being oversaturated? Because I certainly wouldn't mind! Finally Hail teams aren't left in the dust, it only took them 3 generations to release an ability that doubles speed in hail.

Also let's not forget that Pelipper has +10 to it's Sp. Atk, under rain that can actually dent a few things. Considering it gets hurricane as well it can be a more offensive, and it has Defog... I feel like this can outclass Politoed as a rain setter.
They introduced terrains too which are gunna be quite dominant, though them being 5 turns without the specific item balances them out. I like it honestly, granted I absolutely love gen 7 so far but w/e.
 
One other thing due to the change in mega-evolution mechanics might be a buff to mega-banette. Not enough for OU of course but could see it rise a few tiers since it would now be able to prankster status stuff immediately upon mega-evolving, rather than wasting a turn and move on protect. Pity about the accuracy drop on status moves, but its something for it.
 
Remember that speed mechanics have changed for Megas, this means Mega Beedrill can scare mons much more easily so setting up Swords Dance now could be much less of a problem, I think this gen Mega Beedrill could be much more viable because it is now not dependant on protect.
Yeah, I know, but like I said I'd rather run Drill Run and Knock Off on the same set (Poison Jab / U-Turn / Drill Run / Knock Off). Beedrill struggles to ever really find an opportunity to set up Swords Dance thanks to its basically nonexistent bulk, and it's much better off pivoting with U-Turn (which obviously resets Sword's Dance even if it does somehow get it up) early to mid game anyways.
 
Is this the end of utility Gengar sets a la WoW/Substitute? Certainly SubDisable is no longer viable, not that it's been used much lately anyway.

Gengar's effective switch-ins have been halved.

When you consider that burn no longer puts bulky mons on a clock, is WoW still worth it?

Has Gengar been reduced to just another fast special attacker?
 
Is this the end of utility Gengar sets a la WoW/Substitute? Certainly SubDisable is no longer viable, not that it's been used much lately anyway.

Gengar's effective switch-ins have been halved.

When you consider that burn no longer puts bulky mons on a clock, is WoW still worth it?

Has Gengar been reduced to just another fast special attacker?
Well, it's still arguably the best offensive Ghost type in the OU metagame. That alone gives it a very solid niche I think, given how good Ghost is offensively.

To answer your question specifically, I think support Gengar is largely going to be phased out by more offensive variants (3 attacks + Taunt, Sub + 3 Attacks, LO + Pain Split, and other variants of 3 attacks), but it will still remain a very relevant threat and likely won't leave OU, unless Aegislash is unbanned or Marshadow ends up staying in OU, both of which I think are unlikely.

Will-O-Wisp will still have some use on offensive sets in the last moveslot, as it still absolutely fucks with Scizor, Tyranitar, Bisharp, and other switchins. It just matters less against stall now.
 
I've always used Gengar as a utility mon with some bite. Wonder if Sub/WoW/Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb @ Black Sludge can stay viable, specifically.

There are just SO few pokemon it can set up a Sub on now, and it gets trashed by pokemon it used to trash.

So much for countering SubProtectToxic Gliscor, for example.
 
Wait, Chimecho is my favorite Pokémon ever, it got buffs? That's amazing, I run it anyways as it is, can someone tell me if these changes are significant? Did it get any new moves or something?
 
Wait, Chimecho is my favorite Pokémon ever, it got buffs? That's amazing, I run it anyways as it is, can someone tell me if these changes are significant? Did it get any new moves or something?
It just got some small defensive buffs. Its base HP, Defense, and Special Defense went up a bit.
 
I wonder how much Mega Absol has improved with the change in Mega Evolution turn mechanics. The Sucker Punch nerf is unfortunate for it, particularly on its Swords Dance set, but being able to Mega Evolve on Thundurus, Serperior, Garchomp, faster leads and the like should be a nice boon for it. I'm thinking that Specially-based Mixed might be its best set, but SD and physical all-out-attacker could also work well.

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off / Dark Pulse
- Superpower
- Thunderbolt / Fire Blast
- Ice Beam

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive/Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Play Rough
- Pursuit / Ice Beam / Fire Blast / Sucker Punch

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off / Sucker Punch
- Superpower / Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance

I don't see it moving tiers, but it should be more usable in both UU and OU this generation I think.
 
Last edited:
I wonder how much Mega Absol has improved with the change in Mega Evolution turn mechanics. The Sucker Punch nerf is unfortunate for it, particularly on its Swords Dance set, but being able to Mega Evolve on Thundurus, Serperior, Garchomp, faster leads and the like should be a nice boon for it. I'm thinking that Specially-based Mixed might be its best set, but SD and physical all-out-attacker could also work well.

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off / Dark Pulse
- Superpower
- Thunderbolt / Fire Blast
- Ice Beam

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive/Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Play Rough
- Pursuit / Ice Beam / Fire Blast / Sucker Punch

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off / Sucker Punch
- Superpower / Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance

I don't see it moving tiers, but it should be more usable in both UU and OU this generation I think.
The unbelievably bad defenses hurt it, especially as a magic bouncer, but the change to turn order and priority nerfs definitely do help.
 
I don't know how high I'm jumping the gun with what I'm about to say, but I seriously think Gigalith is much improved with Sand Stream, and a much more worthy competitor. Comparing it to Tyranitar, it is much slower and weaker on the special side, but it does have an edge and Attack, Defense, and typing (5 weaknesses as opposed to 7 is much better imo). It doesn't have much Special defense, but the sandstorm it spawns somewhat makes up for it, and most of the moves it should watch out for are Physical anyway. And thanks to its great power, once it sets up, it can go out with a bang, and one that hurts. Here's what I'm thinking:

Gigalith @ Focus Sash/Smooth Rock/Leftovers/Custap Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
252 HP/252 Atk/4 SpD
Adamant/Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Explosion

With its great bulk, it can come in on a physical attacker and set up Rocks with relative ease. EdgeQuake still provides great coverage, and Explosion allows the team to maintain momentum after Gigalith has done its job.
In terms of items, there are a few viable options that Gigalith has. Focus Sash could help it regain the Sturdy that it doesn't have anymore, and Smooth Rock could help out Sand-related teams. If you want to go defensive, Leftovers promotes longevity, while Custap Berry gives it a priority Explosion.
 
Not jumping the gun at all, Giggy is at least RU and probably UU with these changes. It'll probably sit one tier below whatever Hippowdon is in. It's surprisingly durable from a sdef perspective and its low speed is actually an advantage in one sense because it means the only weather setter that 'trumps' his weather in move order is Torkoal. It also matches up well against everything other than specs politoed in VGC17 as far as weather setting goes, has STAB rock slide and almost nothing outspeeds in TR which will be a fairly prominent strategy.
 
Some thoughts on the new speed mechanic when Mega evolving:

* Mega-Diancie, Absol, Beedrill, Lopunny, Sceptile, Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Gardevoir and Gallade, Houndoom, Tyranitar, Scizor, Metagross become immediately better. I'm very afraid of Diancie and Metagross being banworthy in OU with these changes because now can use immediately that good Spe saving a moveslot for Protect or HP.
Gallade has something new to distinguish itself from Medicham and Lopunny: it is way faster than the former in turn 1, but hits harder than the latter. Gardevoir, Scizor and Tyranitar are marginally better and now can wallbreak a little more easily. The same stands for Sceptile, which already has 120 base Spe in its regular form and this buff doesn't really help it over Serperior.
Lopunny and Alakazam, while already good before, are even better now. I won't keep to play Fake Out on Jolly Lopunny, though, because now the bunny can run two elemental punches at the same time, thus lowering the number of its checks.

* Garchomp-Mega becomes really, really worse than the regular form despite having 100 base-stats points more. Probably BL because it is too much for the UU tier, but useless in OU. The same happens for Abomasnow and, sadly, for Heracross.

* Maybe Absol might be now OU material as an offensive Magic Bouncer. I say "might".
______________________________________

Some thoughts about Pelipper.
I see quite well this thing with Drought alongside +10 SpA and STAB Hurricane.
This thing has even U-Turn + Defog (if necessary) despite the SR weakness.

A simple set can be this:

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Hurricane/Defog
- Scald/Defog
- U-turn
- Roost

Knock Off is also an option if you really want an utility move.
 
Last edited:
Some thoughts on the new speed mechanic when Mega evolving:

* Mega-Diancie, Absol, Beedrill, Lopunny, Sceptile, Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Gardevoir and Gallade, Houndoom, Tyranitar, Scizor, Metagross become immediately better. I'm very afraid of Diancie and Metagross being banworthy in OU with these changes because now can use immediately that good Spe saving a moveslot for Protect or HP.
Gallade has something new to distinguish itself from Medicham and Lopunny: it is way faster than the former in turn 1, but hits harder than the latter. Gardevoir, Scizor and Tyranitar are marginally better and now can wallbreak a little more easily. The same stands for Sceptile, which already has 120 base Spe in its regular form and this buff doesn't really help it over Serperior.
Lopunny and Alakazam, while already good before, are even better now. I won't keep to play Fake Out on Jolly Lopunny, though, because now the bunny can run two elemental punches at the same time, thus lowering the number of its checks.

* Garchomp-Mega becomes really, really worse than the regular form despite having 100 base-stats points more. Probably BL because it is too much for the UU tier, but useless in OU. The same happens for Abomasnow and, sadly, for Heracross.

* Maybe Absol might be now OU material as an offensive Magic Bouncer. I say "might".
______________________________________

Some thoughts about Pelipper.
I see quite well this thing with Drought alongside +10 SpA and STAB Hurricane.
This thing has even U-Turn + Defog (if necessary) despite the SR weakness.

A simple set can be this:

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Hurricane/Defog
- Scald/Defog
- U-turn
- Roost

Knock Off is also an option if you really want an utility move.
Can someone explain the new speed mechanic to me? Really confused.
 
Can someone explain the new speed mechanic to me? Really confused.
Basically, if a Pokémon Mega Evolves, its Mega Evolution's speed is used in deciding turn order rather than the base form's speed. In the past, Pokémon who Mega Evolved had to use the base form's speed on the turn they evolved, so things like Diancie had to run Protect to safely survive a turn of being slower. Now, however, Pokémon like Diancie and Mega Metagross will be faster right from the get-go, and can use more offensive moves without having to devote a slot to compensate for their initially low speed.

EDIT: Ninja'd
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top