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(Sorry for the late post, had irl things to deal with)
Thanks to everyone that submitted a set or posted for discussion! That being said, it is...time to vote! Here are all of the qualifying submissions:
Voting will end on 2/8. Anyone is free to vote for your top three sets whether you posted or not! If you did post, you aren't allowed to vote for yourself. Here's mine as an example:
1. OM (curse you for being the first to post so you could post this, I mean, great set wow clear and obvious winner)
2. The Dragon Master (Curse you for stealing my idea, I mean, great job taking an idea of mine I shared for fun and making it better)
3. ezlaturbo (Same)
All light-hearted lol. Seriously, every submission here is awesome and I wish I could vote for all of them.
Congratulations to the winners and thanks again to everyone that submitted!
Continuing unabated to... OM Theorymon #3: STABmons with Gen 1-3 physical/special split
As this implies, the OM Theorymon topic this this time around will be based primarily on STABmons. To quote the OP: " STABmons is the metagame where Pokemon have access to moves that match their type even if they can't normally learn them! Using Eevee as an example, it can now learn every Normal type move. This also applies to Pokemon that change type(s) during evolution. That means Eevee can pass Normal moves to all its Eeveelutions. New moves are "taught" as if they were TMs. "
Twist: What if the original physical/special split on types introduced in generation 3 of Pokemon was still around? In context, this would mean:
Physical: Normal, Fighting, Poison, Ground, Flying, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Steel.
Since there wasn't a Fairy-type back then, I placed it in special because that I think that's where it would've fit in. In essence, this change would make all currently existing moves change their category to how it was back then. A good example of this is Tyranitar, who now has to use its base 95 special attack stat with Knock Off instead of its high 134 base attack.
How would these changes affect the meta? In what ways would the viability of different stones/pokemon change? Is there anything ban/unban worthy? You have until 2/22 to post your thoughts in this thread. Happy theorymonning!
Submission Start
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Oblivion Wing
- Precipice Blades
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish
Oblivion Wing Landorus-T is a powerful setup sweeper that is able to use its 145 base Attack to break through a large portion of the metagame. Oblivion Wing is important for this set because it allows Landorus-T to recover back almost all of the HP that switchins like Corviknight and Rotom-Heat deal to it after a boost, and more. I opted for Rock Polish on this set to maximize its offensive capabilities, but any option like Spikes, Stealth Rock, or Roost work as well. Submission End
After a couple minutes of looking through the mons list, it seems like a lot of things suddenly get worse because their best moves are suddenly put into their poorly invested side. One of the biggest examples I've seen so far is Tapu Bulu who suffers losing access to both of its STABs. Grass types in general struggle pretty hard, with both grassy terrain setters losing access to physical grassy glide.
Flying types on the other hand... Landorus-Therian gets access to physical oblivion wing, giving it one of the best STABs in the game paired with consistently high healing. literally as i was typing this out hills stole my idea i'm fuming rn. so i will steal hills' other idea
Exca is able to stack huge damage with physical LO-boosted Doom Desire, being able to switch out and absolutely nuke whatever the opponent's preferred switchin is. Max HP EVs and Shore Up allow for longevity, allowing Excadrill to get pivoted in and continually click Doom Desire, pressuring the opponent's team immensely. Swords Dance allows for Excadrill to take advantage of mons that it threatens out, allowing for stronger Doom Desires to start raining on the opponent's team. This set pairs well with slow pivots like Slowbro and Bulky Rotom formes as well as fire and water-type special attackers that benefit from being able to know that the opponent will switch into a bulky physical defender to tank the doom desire.
submission end
some other ideas that popped into my head are
special flip turn / surge strikes keldeo
physical sludge wave and epower nidoking
physical moongeist aegislash
special glacial lance some ice type
Submission Start
Diggersby @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Boomburst
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Quick Attack/Explosion/Spikes
With Huge Power, Diggersby has an attack stat equivalent to about base 161 and it has Boomburst. Seeing as Exploud deals insane damage with just base 91... well Diggersby is gonna have fun. Band Boomburst 2hkoes Spdef Ttar and Spdef Heatran. In fact, Boomburst can 2hko pretty much every Rock or Steel type that isn't full physdef. Even then it doesn't matter because Earthquake kills them as well as literally every viable Ghost type. The only pokemon that can actually stand up to Band Diggersby is physdef Corviknight since Diggersby can't use Fire Punch well without the physical/special split. Diggersby can still do something about that though. Assuming rocks are up and Corviknight isn't holding boots, the bunny can just U-Turn. If that happens, Corviknight gets 2hkoed by Boomburst next time it comes in on rocks. If you predict well when you need to, Diggersby pretty much has no counters. Submission End
Here's more stuff I thought of
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Dragon Darts
Can set up then sweep teams with powerful Knock and Darts and take out offensive mons with Sucker Punch. It really suffers from Sucker Punch 50/50s and Fairy types though
The value of shell side arm and photon geyser shouldn't be underestimated either allowing Gallade to still have dual stab and special poison types still have a decent stab option.
Sniper Surging Strikes is a nuke coming off of Inteleon's great Special Attack, and with its excellent Speed tier + slate of newly-usable priority moves, the spy lizard is a little light on offensive checks.
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Inteleon Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex on a critical hit: 147-180 (48.3 - 59.2%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO -- This should speak for itself.
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Inteleon Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios on a critical hit: 189-219 (62.7 - 72.7%) -- approx. 2HKO -- Offensive resists != switch-ins.
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Inteleon Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey on a critical hit: 309-369 (43.2 - 51.6%) -- approx. 3.5% chance to 2HKO -- Gastrodon is looking pretty good.
NOTE: An early version of this submission mistakenly gave Inteleon Nasty Plot because for some reason I thought it got that. The only good set is Specs. I will commit ritual subscriber loss as atonement.
Submission End
The meta seems interesting, in that far more mons are nerfed by it than improved. I think Darm-Galar, Kartana, Kyurem-Black, Mamoswine, Porygon-Z, and base-Zacian could be considered for unbans, all having been hamstrung to some extent by their lopsided offensive presence.
I do have to shout-out to my main bug Galvantula for its newfound Compound Eyes Bolt Strike, but it's still basically unusable. RIP.
Jolteon @ Chill Drive
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Techno Blast
- Volt Switch
- Court Change
standard boltbeam coverage, its pretty boring but im always salty that special electrics don't have a stronger spammable stab move than thunderbolt so bolt strike is nice
Braviary (M) @ Life Orb / Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Ability: Defiant / Sheer Force
- Boomburst
- Oblivion Wing / Hurricane
- Swords Dance / U-turn
- Close Combat
kinda piggy backing off of In The Hills set, here is a strong physical breaker in the form of LO Boomburst, with oblivion wing as a nice secondary stab that also provides longevity. CC is here for coverage against steels/ttar with SD is available for even more breaking potential. Can also run a banded set for more power and substitute SD for U-turn or some other coverage. Defiant is nice since you are no longer crippled by intimidate, although if you dont mind missing a SFLO hurricane set can be considered at the cost of owing for longevity (or maybe SD, you pick!) submission end
meta seems really neat, but its hard to achieve good coverage due to the phys/special split. A lot of original ideas I had got scrapped either bc the mon got walled since it couldn't run effective coverage, or its secondary typing didn't match the type I was using. Normal and flying def seem to be pretty broke, as well as water having access to surging + spout
I think it should be, moves like Bite, Crunch or something that can trigger Carvanha/Sharpedo's Rough Skin in Gen3( I remember this when I played Emerald a long time ago...)
The implication, I think, is that by changing Facade into an Ice-type attack, Refrigerate would also change it from being a Physical to a Special attack due to Ice attacks being inherently Special in this slate?
But I'm not sure whether it would really work like this... Ate-d moves are pretty weird in that they have a different 'static' and 'dynamic' typing, and the one that is referenced depends on the situation - e.g. consider that in Camomons, having Normal-type moves, even if they are affected by Aerilate, in the first two slots will give you Normal rather than Flying typing.
It's unfortunate that the first ability similar to this, Normalize, was introduced in Gen 4, the same generation in which the per-move Physical/Special distinction was introduced, meaning that it's impossible to ever test this situation...
This is a somewhat questionable experiment, but we can use a challenge code to enable us to access content from the Future - such as -Ate abilities, Eviolite and flying cars - in a pre-Gen 4 Showdown battle:-
/challenge USERNAME, [Gen 3] Custom Game @@@+Future
It seems like, at least according to how Showdown's engine works, the 'static' typing of Ated-d moves is used to determine whether they are Physical or Special in Gen 3, causing e.g. Refrigerated attacks to become Physical Ice-type attacks!
I'm not sure to what extent this accurately simulates how the cart/GameFreak Gen 3 games might behave if you hacked an analog of Refrigerate into them, though - maybe a mechanics researcher might have some insight into that. It's also worth mentioning that in-battle, the client previewed Body Slam and Hyper Voice as if they would be Special moves.
It's unfortunate that with Aurorus family and Sylveon the only(?) remaining legal -Ate users in Gen 8, a Physical outcome would be an almost straight nerf, unless maybe like mixed Flame Orb Aurorus could possibly be considered viable <_<
Still could be a hot surprise tech for non-existent/impossible metas >_>
The ability to fire off two 130 Base Power STAB moves with the great BoltBeam coverage along with Nasty Plot setup and reliable recovery makes Rotom-Frost pretty threatening. I feel like there isn't really too much else to say about this set, but Boots let it come in on rocks and I gave it full HP and Speed investment to be as bulky and fast as possible while still being able to boost with Nasty Plot. Submission End
Free Tail Glow so I could use Glacial Lance + Tail Glow Frosmoth.
Ever need a sturdy check to grounds and normals that isn't afraid of hazards and can also wall pretty much any other physical attacker? Well, say no more: SUBMISSION... START!!
Now this set is very simple. While skarm dosent gain anything directly from the Physical/ special unsplit (though strong stab that dosent cause recoil is nice) it makes its typing all the more valuable on the physical side, as it has absolutely no physical weakness, making it near impenetrable as a physical wall. Its a fantastic check to all physical normal boomburst spammers, mainly diggersby as it takes only 40% from band boomburst, while threatening to set up spikes or use toxic, and its reliable recovery let's it check it throughout a game. But you may ask, why skarm when you have corvi? Simple, spikes. This entry hazard threatens to chip down Pokemon fast, thereby supporting your team very well. This would be a cornerstone on stall, while still having a good niche on balance teams that want spikes instead of defog. Leftovers is necessary as the extra healing is too important in this high powered meta.
.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 75-88 (22.4 - 26.3%) -- 12.5% chance to 4HKO
My reaction to this slate is: the gen 3 mechanic is cool, but frankly most stuff already has good moves in STABmons, so it's more about coverage and how that changes than anything. As people have said a lot of stuff gets hard nerfed, so finding the remaining stuff is fun.
Let's Theorymon! Submission Start
Cinderace @ Heavy Duty Boots / Life Orb
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Ball
- High Jump Kick
- U-Turn / Bulk Up
- Court Change / Quick Attack / Bulk Up
This is an example of a set that directly gains absolutely nothing from STABmons, and instead abuses the physical / special mechanic to get great coverage. Shadow Ball allows Cinderace to have 'STAB' Fighting / Ghost coverage, which as we all know is perfect neutral coverage (get out of here w/ your Normal / Ghost it doesn't exist). Being able to turn into a Ghost type at will with an excellent Speed tier is also amazing defensively, because it gives you two great immunities, resistances to some fairly common types, and allows you to block Rapid Spin from Pokemon not named Sylveon*.
The slashed options are because I'm cheating and this is really two sets. One is a Bulk Up set, which is designed to stay in and sweep using its perfect coverage. This set runs Quick Attack for preference in order to finish off some faster threats, and is the only one you'd want to consider Life Orb on, although Heavy Duty Boots is still great.
A pivot set utilizing U-Turn is also considerable. Does pivot Cinderace things. You can run Court Change or Bulk Up on it, depending on whether you want to be able to threaten a sweep or control the hazard game.
Loss of its powerful Fire STABs like Sacred Fire and Fire Lash is a bit of a slap, but thanks to Libero, Cinderace doesn't really suffer a noticeable power reduction.
.
.
.
*If the following quoted post is correct then Sylveon is pretty terrible, so Sylveon getting around Cinderace's spinblocking isn't that relevant. Might have a use because of its good bulk and unblockable Rapid Spin, but no burst of power makes it significantly less appealing as a utility option.
The implication, I think, is that by changing Facade into an Ice-type attack, Refrigerate would also change it from being a Physical to a Special attack due to Ice attacks being inherently Special in this slate?
But I'm not sure whether it would really work like this... Ate-d moves are pretty weird in that they have a different 'static' and 'dynamic' typing, and the one that is referenced depends on the situation - e.g. consider that in Camomons, having Normal-type moves, even if they are affected by Aerilate, in the first two slots will give you Normal rather than Flying typing.
It's unfortunate that the first ability similar to this, Normalize, was introduced in Gen 4, the same generation in which the per-move Physical/Special distinction was introduced, meaning that it's impossible to ever test this situation...
This is a somewhat questionable experiment, but we can use a challenge code to enable us to access content from the Future - such as -Ate abilities, Eviolite and flying cars - in a pre-Gen 4 Showdown battle:-
/challenge USERNAME, [Gen 3] Custom Game @@@+Future
It seems like, at least according to how Showdown's engine works, the 'static' typing of Ated-d moves is used to determine whether they are Physical or Special in Gen 3, causing e.g. Refrigerated attacks to become Physical Ice-type attacks!
I'm not sure to what extent this accurately simulates how the cart/GameFreak Gen 3 games might behave if you hacked an analog of Refrigerate into them, though - maybe a mechanics researcher might have some insight into that. It's also worth mentioning that in-battle, the client previewed Body Slam and Hyper Voice as if they would be Special moves.
It's unfortunate that with Aurorus family and Sylveon the only(?) remaining legal -Ate users in Gen 8, a Physical outcome would be an almost straight nerf, unless maybe like mixed Flame Orb Aurorus could possibly be considered viable <_<
Still could be a hot surprise tech for non-existent/impossible metas >_>
In addition to what Roldski said, Grass Knot is an extant Special contact move in post-split generations.
Another set!
Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Heavy Slam / Sunsteel Strike
- Bullet Punch
- Hammer Arm / Shadow Ball / Earthquake / Explosion
Meatgorss is a cool and underrated Pokemon in STABmons. Here it happens to be the best user of what I believe to be the only way to get around the mechanic change we're theorymonning about: Photon Geyser. Because of Photon Geyser's mechanics changing its move category from its default, and its default already being special, it should be able to switch to physical here if the circumstances are right.
Shell Side Arm probably doesn't do the same thing unfortunately, as its description is " Physical+contact if it would be stronger," which implies that it only has the mechanic of turning physical, and since it's already physical... that does nothing (except make it contact I guess).
Fellas.
Elemental Punches Alakazam is back in full force and with some new toys.
Fire Punch, as we know, is a blessing against Scizor. Knock Off gives you a special dark move that removes items. Ice Punch gives some nice coverage. As for the moves I haven't listed in the moveset, there's actually not much that Alakazam doesn't have already. But it can get a guaranteed Lunar Dance to get a guaranteed heal with a sash, so that's something to note I guess. submission end
@ Blastoisinite by OM
@ Banettite by anaconja
@ Charizardite X by a loser
@ Lopunnite by Dunsparce Fanboy 
@ Charizardite X by theotherguytm 
@ Lopunnite by Don Vascus 
@ Cameruptiteby Akumeoy 
@ Lucarionite by Chazm 
@ Altarianite by qways 
@ Slowbronite by bp scrub 
@ Scizorite by GamerOGuy
@ Metagrossite by In The Hills 
@ Slowbronite by EchoGaia
OM Theorymon #3: STABmons with Gen 1-3 physical/special split 
