On The Justification Of Bans

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I've heard a lot of things being thrown around- the idea of banning stuff like Stealth Rock, Skymin, and even things like this post:

See how powerful Salamance, Zapdos, Gyarados, etc become. If any of them become suspects, I would be keen to say SR is broken.

The idea that banning something just so we can ban something ELSE is absolutely ridiculous. With the idea that a game with less rules is easier to comprehend and more stable than a game with more rules, excessive banning goes against the standard way of playing the game in pretty much every way.

David Sirlin wrote an absolutely amazing book called Playing To Win, in which he includes a chapter about when bans are justified and when they aren't. Said chapter is located here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

I'll include some notable excerpts from the chapter, as well as places where they especially apply to previous parts of the metagame.

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game.

This particular quote applies to the previously banned Garchomp and Deoxys-E. Garchomp was banned on the grounds that it is an exceptionally good sweeper, and that it was so good that its very inclusion meant that it was far more profitable to use Garchomp than any other sweeper, and that its existence precludes the existence of other sweepers. Deoxys-E was the same, except that its dominance was instead in the lead category. Dual Screen Deoxys-E was so dominant as a lead that there was simply no reason to use any lead other than Deoxys-E to set up for a team, which was quickly reflected in the statistics as lead usage skyrocketed at the expense of the use of other leads.

The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point.

This is exemplified in the discussion on Wobbuffet. In order to prove his point, IPL proceeded to create one of the most effective and easiest to use teams ever by exploiting Wobbuffet, and was able to not only reach #1 on the ladder, but also managed to do so on numerous accounts. I tried out IPL's Wob team, and it was probably the easiest team to use that I'd ever tried, hands down. This is one of the things that bothers me about the Skymin = Uber arguments. If Skymin is really so broken, then prove it by using the "broken" Skymin to achieve massive ladder fame. If you fail, then the likelihood is that Skymin simply isn't as powerful as you previously believed.

Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

This is a big part of a lot of the controversy over the current state of UU. There are a lot of people that support the current UU/BL split, but it's hard to justify it because of how the metagame was formed. The current UU is a "second best" metagame. Take Houndoom, for example. Houndoom is consistently rejected on the grounds that it outclasses Ninetales for the most part with its better typing and attacking stats, but the problem is that you get a metagame filled with half-useless Pokemon that fit in nowhere. There are people saying that Venusaur should be booted back to BL because it outclasses many other Grass-Poison Pokemon, which leads me to think: Why is that bad? More usable Pokemon is ALWAYS better than less usable Pokemon, and with a smaller BL tier and a cemented UU tier, a true NU can appear, giving yet another playable metagame that can allow more Pokemon to compete.

Before voting to ban something or suggesting that something needs to be banned, first try and figure out exactly why it needs to be banned. Think on it before you just blindly decide things like "SR is broken" or "Skymin is definitely 100% Uber."

 

[Black Buddha]

I agree 1 bajillion % with the second quote. If something is as broken as it seems, it should be able to dominate ENTIRELY in the hands of a competent player.

 

[Legacy Raider]

I saw on your profile that you were creating a new thread in Stark. I had hopes it would be good, and you didn't disappoint =).

Sirlin's quotes are resoundingly true. By removing elements from an already stable game in order to make it more 'stable', you will most likely detract more from the game than you improve it by.

That is why I am so against Shaymin-S becoming Uber. Like you said very well, if it is that good, then why don't more people use/abuse it? Why don't people use it on every team like IPL did during the Wobby test? I think the fact that Skymin usage is at #10 is more of an indication to its broken-ness than all the whining in the world.

Both D-E and Garchomp were top of the roster for whatever they did - be it sweep or lead. Of course, one could arguable say that Skymin is the best SubSeeder, but quoting Sirlin:

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.

I don't see SubSeeding breaking the game any time soon.

 

[obi]

That raises the obvious question, does "leading" break the game?

To those attempting to make sure your arguments justify all prior bans, keep in mind that Deoxys-S was at 6th in July and August (less than half of Garchomp's usage, and less than 2/3 of Gengar's in both months), and 12th in September. If you're trying to use these arguments to justify Deoxys-S being banned, be very careful of saying things like "the stats show Deoxys-S was on top!".

Looking at the stats, you can see that Deoxys-S wasn't even the most common lead! It was 6th, 6th, and 5th for those three months, respectively.

Wobbuffet was also never high in usage statistics.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Haha well. Deoxys-E broke the game because of the way it lead - how entire matches were decided by who won the speed tie to Taunt, and then proceeded to put up both screens and stealth rock.

Although, having said that, I feel Deoxys would not be quite so domineering in the Platinum metagame. Viable, non-specialised things such as Scarf Trick Azelf can beat the Deoxys lead, and Scizor with Brick Break is also a lot more common.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I agree 1 bajillion % with the second quote. If something is as broken as it seems, it should be able to dominate ENTIRELY in the hands of a competent player.

I disagree with that, in a way. If something really is broken, it should be able to dominate in the hands of an incompetent player as well as a competent one. Well, maybe that's a bit strong, but it's somewhere around there.

Oh, and not that it really matters, but would you be against banning something to allow something else into the game?

 

[zarator]

That raises the obvious question, does "leading" break the game?

To those attempting to make sure your arguments justify all prior bans, keep in mind that Deoxys-S was at 6th in July and August (less than half of Garchomp's usage, and less than 2/3 of Gengar's in both months), and 12th in September. If you're trying to use these arguments to justify Deoxys-S being banned, be very careful of saying things like "the stats show Deoxys-S was on top!".

Looking at the stats, you can see that Deoxys-S wasn't even the most common lead! It was 6th, 6th, and 5th for those three months, respectively.

Ok, maybe it will not be 1st in usage, but it was by far the best lead in the game - to the point that there were no reason to use another lead at all. Every setup lead of sort would have being simply taunted in face. Sweeping leads would have crushed on a screen and let Deoxys setup anyway. Unless you really wanted to run something very specific like a Weather Lead Deo would have been better. Hell, the only situation I can think it could have defeated a Deo Lead was a Yanmega that, after managing to Protect 2 times, it also managed to put Deo to sleep - 35% prob in favor on this scenario, btw...

EDIT: I want also to thank SDS, as he showed me how dumb I have been to even think to test SR^^ Seriously, you made me see the truth lol

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I disagree with that, in a way. If something really is broken, it should be able to dominate in the hands of an incompetent player as well as a competent one. Well, maybe that's a bit strong, but it's somewhere around there.

Therein lies the problem. A metagame should always be built around the competent players, not the random scrubs that wouldn't know what to do with something broken if it bit them in the ass. I play a lot of the Warcraft 3 Custom Map, DotA, and there's often a lot of hubbub about balancing the game based on how random pubs play. However, in the end, major balance decisions are based on how the majority of skilled players put the various heroes and items to use, not the way that the scrub masses do, despite the fact that there are far more scrubby players than there are skilled ones.

Pokemon should be no different. A metagame shouldn't be decided by the unskilled masses, which is exactly why the current voting process is what it is. The skilled that know how the metagame works are the ones that are most affected by the changes, and are thus the most informed and most qualified to make metagame decisions.

Oh, and not that it really matters, but would you be against banning something to allow something else into the game?

Yes. In a one-for-one trade, less bans is always better than more bans.

 

[obi]

Ok, maybe it will not be 1st in usage, but it was by far the best lead in the game - to the point that there were no reason to use another lead at all.

I disagree here, and I think that this kind of thinking is poor team building. I have never thought to myself "OK, now I need to put a Pokemon on my team that makes a good lead!". Deoxys-S is a poor lead if it's bad for the team, and overall, I had found Deoxys-S to be a pretty mediocre Pokemon. The fact that it did not jump to the top of the usage statistics means that many people found reasons not to lead with it.

 

[Darth Meanie]

Leading obviously isn't the way to determine if something is broken or not.

Take Heatran for example. Heatran can rarely sweep teams except in lategame, and he tends to be used more to cover weaknesses and stop other threats. He is also very easy to slap on to a team, since almost every team has at least one ground immune for him to work with. This is probably the reason Heatran is #1 in usage right now, but the metagame would most likely be worse, not better without him.

I'm going to try to analyze stealth rock according to what Sirlin says.

1: Tactic dominates metagame to exclusion of other tactics.

Stealth Rock fails this right off of the bat. Stealth Rock helps several types of play (stall, offensive) and, since people usually only devote one of 24 moveslots to it, is hardly excluding other tactics.

2: This tactic must be what the metagame is about. It should be abusable to the point that using it will make victory simple and easy (roughly)

Stealth Rock doesn't fare as well on this part of the test. Most teams have the move, and I believe every high level team uses it. Stealth Rock doesn't ensure victory, but it seems that consistently winning isn't viable without it.

Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.

Although I like the idea of not having to keep a rapid spinner and worry about spin blockers if I want to run Moltres, Yanmega, or Vespiquen, the metagame is neither shallow nor centered on Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock, while an incredibly integral part of the metagame, does not remove other tactics at its expense.

I suppose it is possible that Stealth Rock could one day be broken, if everyone starts carrying two rapid spinners and two spin blockers and two rock setters to a team. I don't see that happening though.

I forgot about Sirlin. Thanks for posting this.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Hell, the only situation I can think it could have defeated a Deo Lead was a Yanmega that, after managing to Protect 2 times, it also managed to put Deo to sleep - 35% prob in favor on this scenario, btw...

If the Deoxys had Taunt/Stealth Rock/Screen/Screen, why would you bother to use Protect? Just Hypnosis him and kill with Bug Buzz.

@ SDS: So, if Smogon suddenly decided to test banning the Type-res. berries to allow Garchomp, you would be against it?

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I disagree here, and I think that this kind of thinking is poor team building. I have never thought to myself "OK, now I need to put a Pokemon on my team that makes a good lead!". Deoxys-S is a poor lead if it's bad for the team, and overall, I had found Deoxys-S to be a pretty mediocre Pokemon. The fact that it did not jump to the top of the usage statistics means that many people found reasons not to lead with it.

It may not have been number 1, but that still doesn't change the fact that it was the best lead in the metagame at what it did (Fast Taunt/SR and Screens), so much so that it eclipsed Pokemon like Aerodactyl and Azelf, which filled in a similar role but were rendered useless by Deoxys-E. Even Pokemon like DP Crobat and Bronzong had issues with Deoxys-E, as it prevented them from doing what they were meant to do with impunity. Deoxys-E reduced the number of viable leads, and I'm quite sure that if it were not banned at the time that it was, it would have continued climbing the rank until it eventually did end up at number 1. The Dual Screen Lead had only started to become popular when it got banned, and with Screens being so sought after in the current metagame, Deoxys-E has left its mark in a very permanent way.

 

[eric the espeon]

That raises the obvious question, does "leading" break the game?

If it is so much better than all other leads then maybe you could call in a modified version of this section:

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.

If dominating a section of the game (Leading) to the exclusion of all others is worthy of a ban then that may be justification enough.

Although as you point out

Looking at the stats, you can see that Deoxys-S wasn't even the most common lead! It was 6th, 6th, and 5th for those three months, respectively.

so... yea..

Personally I don't think a Pokemon should be tested until it hits no. 1, or massively warps the metagame around itself (highly specialized counters).

Also it could be a good idea to see if there can be a balanced metagame with a higher power level than the OU that we have right now, I know Obi has proposed it before but iirc nothing solid came of it.

Nice thread SDS!

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

So, if Smogon suddenly decided to test banning the Type-res. berries to allow Garchomp, you would be against it?

Yes, because fixing one of the Pokemon's problems doesn't change the inherent fact that it's broken. You could approach this from any angle: Just ban Yache, or just ban SD, or just ban Outrage, etc. The idea that you would limit options like Shuca Berry Heatran or Wacan Berry Gyarados, neither of which is inherently broken, just to allow another Pokemon to be used when its exclusion doesn't negatively impact the metagame is absurd. Less bans > more bans, no matter what.

 

[mien]

I agree with Obi on this matter, if Deoxys-E is really the best lead ever then why didn't everyone use it? People play to win if something really makes winning so easy then explain to me why it wasn't No1?

I have said this numerous times before, IPL didn't become No1 thanks to Wobbuffet but simply because he is a an extremely skilled player. It's not like after Wobbuffet got banned he became noob and never reached No1 again. If we had to ban every pokemon used by top players we can ban the top 15 pokemon in OU right away

Also the metagame based on skilled players sounds awesome in theory but is flawed in reality. Skilled players won't choose what is best for the metagame(at least most do) but what's good for themselfs based on their own expierence.
You can compare it to the real votings if only the 'Elite' would vote like in the past they only vote what's good for them and don't care what happens to the masses. That's Human Nature

That's the reason why i am against this PR and requirements thing, i think everyone has the right to vote no matter how flawed the reason might be.That is how democracy works at least.
I am certain that 50 people all together are more capable of forming the right decision then just one or two

 

[obi]

If dominating a section of the game (Leading) to the exclusion of all others is worthy of a ban then that may be justification enough.

Every OU (and most BL and UU Pokemon) dominate a section of the game, because Pokemon are specialized. Nothing fills the Rapid-Spinner with Recovery roll quite like Starmie. Abomasnow is the best hail starter; it completely outclasses Pokemon using Hail. You really can't beat Blissey for general special walling.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Every OU (and most BL and UU Pokemon) dominate a section of the game, because Pokemon are specialized. Nothing fills the Rapid-Spinner with Recovery roll quite like Starmie. Abomasnow is the best hail starter; it completely outclasses Pokemon using Hail. You really can't beat Blissey for general special walling.

The thing is that those are all secondary roles for a team. You don't need to be packing a Rapid Spinner, nor a Hail starter, nor a Special Wall. However, no matter what kind of team you run, you must have a lead- it's simple game mechanics. A Pokemon that completely and utterly dominates to the point of brokenness in as vital an area as leading is worthy of a ban. Niche roles like Rapid Spinning and Hail Starting (Abomasnow is entirely unique in the second class) can suffer from that level of centralization without necessarily being broken.

 

[Legacy Raider]

I agree with Obi on this matter, if Deoxys-E is really the best lead ever then why didn't everyone use it? People play to win if something really makes winning so easy then explain to me why it wasn't No1?

In October, the last month with Deoxys usage in it, it was #1 most used lead. This was when people were starting to catch on to its effectiveness, and had it not been banned it would most likely have continued to rise in usage. Obi quoted the figures from the months preceding October to highlight his point.

You say that something is only ban-worthy if it reaches #1. But with that argument you could also say that Wobbuffet was perfectly fine in OU, seeing as its usage wasn't that high.

 

[Tleilax]

I agree with Obi on this matter, if Deoxys-E is really the best lead ever then why didn't everyone use it? People play to win if something really makes winning so easy then explain to me why it wasn't No1?

There could be plenty of reasons. Maybe people liked their teams the way they were. Maybe they don't like using legendaries. Maybe they saw how effective D-E was and wanted to use something else to be different, or to them it was more fun to use what could be considered a "weaker" choice. Usage stats don't necessarily account for personal preferences.

Also the metagame based on skilled players sounds awesome in theory but is flawed in reality. Skilled players won't choose what is best for the metagame(at least most do) but what's good for themselfs based on their own expierence.
You can compare it to the real votings if only the 'Elite' would vote like in the past they only vote what's good for them and don't care what happens to the masses. That's Human Nature

You really think skilled players don't play to the metagame to at least an extent? One will not make it far if they ignore they conventions of the current metagame. If anything, the elites know best. They have learned to play with and around the norms of the metagame, and as such have a better knowledge of how it functions. To say that elite players don't care about the metagame is ridiculous.

That's the reason why i am against this PR and requirements thing, i think everyone has the right to vote no matter how flawed the reason might be.That is how democracy works at least

Why should we let just anyone have a say in the metagame? Many people do not have the skill or experience to make an educated decision on what is powerful in the metagame. It's not a democracy. You earn your right to have a say here by showing that you are competent. There are many out there who believe that Charizard is the greatest Pokemon ever and that no legendaries should be allowed. I don't want people who don't understand the metagame making decisions that affect it.

 

[mien]

Why should we let just anyone have a say in the metagame? Many people do not have the skill or experience to make an educated decision on what is powerful in the metagame. It's not a democracy. You earn your right to have a say here by showing that you are competent. There are many out there who believe that Charizard is the greatest Pokemon ever and that no legendaries should be allowed. I don't want people who don't understand the metagame making decisions that affect it.

Lol, you are talking about people who don't play competitive at all. Besides when you are shoddying how many of these kind of players do you actually see, i haven't at least.

You really think skilled players don't play to the metagame to at least an extent? One will not make it far if they ignore they conventions of the current metagame. If anything, the elites know best. They have learned to play with and around the norms of the metagame, and as such have a better knowledge of how it functions. To say that elite players don't care about the metagame is ridiculous.

You have misunderstood what i said, of course they know how it is like. The problem is they won't choose what's good for the masses they only choose what's good for them the top players.

Currently smogon is building a metagame based and for 5% of the players on shoddy because of these votes only for them this metagame is 'good'. The rest the shoddy staff doesn't seem to care whater they like it or not although smogon depends on these people if they didn't play there would smogon would not even exist

 

[RaikouLover]

Ok, for starters I want to say that I really appreciate this thread SDS!

So heres my gripe:

I'll include some notable excerpts from the chapter, as well as places where they especially apply to previous parts of the metagame.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Sirlin
The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game.

This particular quote applies to the previously banned Garchomp and Deoxys-E. Garchomp was banned on the grounds that it is an exceptionally good sweeper, and that it was so good that its very inclusion meant that it was far more profitable to use Garchomp than any other sweeper, and that its existence precludes the existence of other sweepers. Deoxys-E was the same, except that its dominance was instead in the lead category. Dual Screen Deoxys-E was so dominant as a lead that there was simply no reason to use any lead other than Deoxys-E to set up for a team, which was quickly reflected in the statistics as lead usage skyrocketed at the expense of the use of other leads.

Now, I like this quote, however this is where I stand... and I still adamantly disagree with some of this:

On the subject of Garchomp I feel that your statement and many of the quotes that you use from the book contradict the course of action and attitude towards Garchomp. Garchomp was NOT the best sweeper in the metagame at all... bar none. I never saw Garchomp's 6-0ing teams used by decent players, hell, the damn thing never got more than 1 kill against me. Therefore, I don't believe it excluded other sweepers as you had Lucario AND Gyarados both in the top 5 who would rip teams a new asshole... steamrolling someone 4-0 in the blink of eye. People banned Garchomp for all the wrong reasons. The best argument I ever heard was "its guarenteed a kill" /sacrasm. I guess that means the tactic was overly broken, since clearly the n00bs using it had an opportunity to beat a better player so long as they had chomp (again, /sarcasm). The difference between Garchomp and Deoxys-E / Wob was not in its ability to do damage, it was that the former two could control the entire complextion of the game and each user had a GROSS advantage over the non-user. It was remarkably easy to win with Wob and Deoxys-E just by having them on their team. I laddered using someone elses cheap Wob team all the way up to #3. I never reached #1 because the #1 and #2... and for a while the whole top 5 was held by IPL, who was using Wob and Deoxys-E with a team that netted some rediculous 98+% win ratio. Coincidence? I don't think so. Now, can the n00bs that used Garchomp... or use Shaymin-S say that? I don't think they ever will be able to, because neither had such a large effect on battles. Sure, Chomp's usage was centralizing, but how did that limit viable tactics you could use? Wdro, my good friend and great battler, held two IDs in the top 10 for almost a year, never even thinking of using Garchomp, and never having problems dealing with it eiether. Yet, when he decided to tinker with Dual Screen Deoxys-E, his team started a revolution. Oh yeah, that team held the #1 and #2 spots on the Smogon Ladder at a point in time. So I agree with all of you that say if you believe something is broken, then prove it by laddering your ass to #1, then you can comment on how "broken" something really is. Thanks for this thread... I had to let some steam out

 

[petrie911]

I'm going to try to analyze stealth rock according to what Sirlin says.

1: Tactic dominates metagame to exclusion of other tactics.

Stealth Rock fails this right off of the bat. Stealth Rock helps several types of play (stall, offensive) and, since people usually only devote one of 24 moveslots to it, is hardly excluding other tactics.

Stealth Rock is completely ubiquitous. So much so that most damage calculations assume its presence. It does, in fact, exclude other tactics, and those tactics are anything that involves not using Stealth Rock. Also, the complete ubiquity of Stealth Rock does exclude at least one other tactic: Hail teams. They're actually not too bad, as few things like the constant damage or switching in on 100% accurate STAB Blizzards, but Stealth Rock really hurts the Ice types needed to make a Hail team work.

 

[RaikouLover]

Bullshit. Stealth Rock doesn't exclude any tactic in the Metagame. If you want to play offense, you can still play offense. If you want to stall, you can still stall. If you want to run Hail, then you can still run hail! I fail to see how Stealth Rock's usage means you can't run a successful hail team. I'm sure spiritofsteel would agree with you. If you don't know who that is... he laddered to #1 consistently using a hail team.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Stealth Rock is completely ubiquitous. So much so that most damage calculations assume its presence. It does, in fact, exclude other tactics, and those tactics are anything that involves not using Stealth Rock. Also, the complete ubiquity of Stealth Rock does exclude at least one other tactic: Hail teams. They're actually not too bad, as few things like the constant damage or switching in on 100% accurate STAB Blizzards, but Stealth Rock really hurts the Ice types needed to make a Hail team work.

Yes, but how do you know that banning Stealth Rock won't make Hail teams so insanely overpowered that many other tactics are considered useless when these Ice-types run rampant without Stealth Rock to keep them in their place? (I know that this wouldn't actually happen if Stealth Rock was banned by the way).

For example, people have considered testing Ho-oh in OU. Say that Ho-oh did happen to be a non-dominating Pokemon in OU, and then we banned Stealth Rock. Ho-oh would render many other things almost useless I suspect. For all we know, Stealth Rock may be so common because it renders so many tactics, that would otherwize themselves be broken, useless.

And in GSC, Leftovers was on so many Pokemon that we often presumed that the Pokemon was holding Leftovers when we did damage calculations. Leftovers weren't worthy of banning, just because they were common.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I like seeing good thought on Smogon, nice thread SDS.

Stealth Rock is completely ubiquitous. So much so that most damage calculations assume its presence. It does, in fact, exclude other tactics, and those tactics are anything that involves not using Stealth Rock. Also, the complete ubiquity of Stealth Rock does exclude at least one other tactic: Hail teams. They're actually not too bad, as few things like the constant damage or switching in on 100% accurate STAB Blizzards, but Stealth Rock really hurts the Ice types needed to make a Hail team work.

It also makes Groudon teams slightly less viable because you can't use Ho-Oh without coming in and taking 50%.

And Stealth Rock somewhat limits the usage of types that are weak or sometimes even neutral to it tilting the usage towards pokémon that resist it, thus narrowing what we can do. If these pokémon were of different typings would they be so harmed by it?