On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]

[zbr]

Pursuit got removed from the game, and a gimmick tactic does not warrant a ban on trapping in general (unless we state that trapping is uncompetitive and so on and so forth, you know the drill).

All you (most of the users in this thread) are doing is theorymoning about the new meta. I have yet to see anyone use trapinch or diglett in the SS OU ladder with a moderate chance of success, this is clearly against the OU policy and any argument about banning arena trap that does not entertain the notion that trapping is uncompetitive is fallacious at best.

at the end of the day. It’s just a matter of do we want to wait until the problem becomes a problem or do we want to nip the issue in the bud. I’m all for banning arena trap, suspect dugtrio, whatever that feels fair to the metagame. but at the end of the day, being able to remove a core component of the game and being able to force your opponent into a state of needless caution is something I definitely don’t want to play in this shitty game of RNG chess.

 

[The Funky Reason]

even in a meta where pursuit was relevant, shadow tag / arena trap was banned so what’s your point? Oo

at the end of the day. It’s just a matter of do we want to wait until the problem becomes a problem or do we want to nip the issue in the bud. I’m all for banning arena trap, suspect dugtrio, whatever that feels fair to the metagame. but at the end of the day, being able to remove a core component of the game and being able to force your opponent into a state of needless caution is something I definitely don’t want to play in this game of RNG chess.

You're really missing the point though. Arena was so bad last gen because it killed all of stall's answers. Pursuit literally made you play the exact same way you say is toxic because if you clicked a move with a choice locked ghost or psychic, tyranitar came in and trapped with pursuit with no fear of retaliation, you had to play the same way. Goth and wob are also completely different. Wob traps even more things than duggy but kills offensive mons in 1 hit and encores passive mons to let in free setup. Goth is similar but tricks scarf or sets up with rest on all passive mons to instantly win. The shadow tag mons, prevos included, punish you so hard for having the audacity to switch into a wall/set up rocks that you fucking lose the game. Arena trappers are solely revenge killers and not some cheesy win con that makes you lose the game in one turn. I would argue that duggy does this too well, not that this is inherently unfair.
Also for those saying you don't know what a trapper will do in any game, you have team preview and you should be using it to look at wincons that your opponent has and what you need to stop them (hint: he wants to trap the mons stopping his win con) for duggy, this means keeping all your mons above like 70% in most cases which is nearly impossible to do, but diglet asks for 35ish% on things which is pretty reasonable, considering if my wall preventing some guy from winning is at 40%, I've probably lost anyway. The problem with duggy isn't that you don't know what they are going to trap, it's that it traps and kills half your team with like 20% prior chip so playing around it is basically impossible.

 

[earl]

You're really missing the point though. Arena was so bad last gen because it killed all of stall's answers.

Arena Trap’s suspect test was mainly triggered by the discovery of the offensive core of Eject Button Toxapex, Ground Z Duggy, and Charizard Y. It wasn’t brought about due to overwhelming stall, but cheesy offensive strats.
(However the original, unsuccessful Duggy test was caused by stall)

 

[100 Hoes Kaido]

You know, reading this, it seems crazy but I'm sold on magnet pull (alongside arena and stag) my argument isn't that it's broken, because it's not, but rather, it's an ability that limits the freedom of choice a player can have, and it's not so difficult to find ways to abuse that in various gens, Dugtrio and Magneton in ADV, the introduction of U-turn in DPPt, where your Scizor can Uturn out to Magnezone so that Skarmory is easily dispatched, or Knock Off Clef /Gliscor (there was also a time Gliscor was used as a lead without roost to U-turn to Magnezone whenever they needed their draco meteor resists weakened or out of commission, Britscor I believe?) or Tyranitar scarf to pursuit stuff like Azelf, 'rade etc), BW with the introduction of more dragon threats and the council going full retard unbanning Kyub, Oras and Usum with everyone learning Knock Off, sometimes U-turn/vswitch too, as we advance from generation to generation these tools, that basically force the player to go on an autopilot have always been strengthenend.
I'd rather have a single "Freedom of choice" clause to make things smoother and toss all trap abilities.

 

[zbr]

You're really missing the point though. Arena was so bad last gen because it killed all of stall's answers. Pursuit literally made you play the exact same way you say is toxic because if you clicked a move with a choice locked ghost or psychic, tyranitar came in and trapped with pursuit with no fear of retaliation, you had to play the same way. Goth and wob are also completely different. Wob traps even more things than duggy but kills offensive mons in 1 hit and encores passive mons to let in free setup. Goth is similar but tricks scarf or sets up with rest on all passive mons to instantly win. The shadow tag mons, prevos included, punish you so hard for having the audacity to switch into a wall/set up rocks that you fucking lose the game. Arena trappers are solely revenge killers and not some cheesy win con that makes you lose the game in one turn. I would argue that duggy does this too well, not that this is inherently unfair.
Also for those saying you don't know what a trapper will do in any game, you have team preview and you should be using it to look at wincons that your opponent has and what you need to stop them (hint: he wants to trap the mons stopping his win con) for duggy, this means keeping all your mons above like 70% in most cases which is nearly impossible to do, but diglet asks for 35ish% on things which is pretty reasonable, considering if my wall preventing some guy from winning is at 40%, I've probably lost anyway. The problem with duggy isn't that you don't know what they are going to trap, it's that it traps and kills half your team with like 20% prior chip so playing around it is basically impossible.

i don’t think pursuit is really relevant hence why I removed it from my original reply. The point I’m trying to bring across is really simple.

arena trap is an ability that is bound to be abused in some way shape or form if given the opportunity to do so. it’s not just some cheesy revenge killer, it’s a sniper at the back waiting to snipe a particular target on the team.

“there’s team preview! open your eyes and don’t let the trapper trap you” that’s the problem isn’t it? when you have to forcefully play around such a strategy where you cannot make optimal plays because you are worried that one wrong step will lock you into an irreversible situation and it’s either that or you have to run subpar sets on selective mons to dodge the trapper. esp in this case where the trapper gets to pick and choose whatever the fuck he wants to trap because arena trap isn’t selectively niche in it’s trapping.

please don’t bring up pursuit and magnet pull as argument because it’s very simple: pursuit requires you to play the 5050 on an opponent and requires thinking and magnet pull is the only situation where you can actually say “well, team preview has told me what he wants to trap so I better play around it”

 

[theotherguytm]

Yes it is an issue with magnet pull unless you know the magnezone set beforehand (scarf? subchargebeam? etc.) and you put shed shell on all your steel pokemons. U-turn on corviknight is forcing you to use u-turn on every situation unless you want to get trapped and either killed or highly damaged (this is the suboptimal playstyle you have to use in order to supposedly play around trapinch, based on your own reasoning).
Also your main argument is terribly weak, it's quite predictable what a trapper will do and what will want to trap from the very moment of team preview. You have to play around a ton of other shit, namely most statuppers or a stab from a cbander (such as fishious rend). How is that any different than playing around a trapinch or diglett? Answer: there's no difference. I have to carefully protect my check/counter from a specific threat and that might make me play suboptimally, this happens realistically every game. In fact, it did not happen on the ladder with trapinch or diglett so far, given how much usage they have (basically 0).

The difference is, with Magnet Pull you have to protect your 1 Steel (if any). With Arena Trap you have to protect most of your team and have no idea what that mon is tailored to trap. You can guess, yes, but if you guess wrong you probably lose.

Playing around trapping is very different to playing around other threats, as playing around threats "suboptimally" basically consists of keeping a given check healthy by using Roost/Recover more often than is ideal or switching into Rocks an extra time. Hardly constraining. You also have the option to switch out of threats to that check to maintain its health. If that mon is required to check multiple mons and cannot, then you got played in the builder, tough. That's how the game works. But with some careful play and skill, you can pull through. It's not the end of the world if Excadrill has come in and Corv's badly chipped. You just sac whatever you don't need.

The difference with trapping is that the element of skill is taken away. It's like the above scenario, but your opponent can force you to sac whatever he wants. You can't "outplay" a trapper without simply leaving its target on the bench for half the game and assuming every turn the trapper could come in. And that's where the difference between Magnet Pull and Arena Trap becomes blatant. Leaving your Steel on the bench and only bringing it in when the trapper can't come in or you can just double out is pretty easy, if pressuring. In other words, the victim has a great deal of control over when Magnet Pull can work, and can arrange for the trap to happen on his own terms eg:after the opponent loses a check to his sweeper and he wants to get it in against the Magnet Puller.

Trying to do the same with half a team or more is just impossible. Something is going to get caught at some point. The only question is whether the trapper can finish it off, or just takes a free switch into a check without fearing the double. If the latter, you lose a load of momentum and are on the back foot without the trapper doing anything. If the former, you lose a mon and possibly the game. The victim cannot control when Arena Trap can work without assuming it will always work for the early stages of the battle. Which forces loads of suboptimal play just to tapdance around the possibility it might trap this, or it might come in on that. It might carry this, it might carry that. While you can say this happens for every mon, the price for incorrectly guessing a trapper's set is usually fatal, whereas learning that it's Specs Aegi the hard way at least gives you a fighting chance if your scouting is up to spec.

But it's clear that other people's opinion fundamentally differs on this, so I say just ask for a Magnet Pull suspect when the DLC drops if that's really your biggest gripe with this. Because ATM, Arena Trap is the only trapping ability in the game. So we will tier with what we have.

Arena Trap suspect with Dugtrio banned on the ladder. If Do Not Ban is voted on Arena Trap, Dugtrio is quickbanned regardless.

If this happens, I will go for reqs with Giga Drain Trapinch. I haven't gone for reqs before, and I tend to be a lot better at the theory than the nitty-gritty, but I'll go for reqs. Hail Lord Vish.

 

[Empress Mobile]

I don't see any benefit to keeping Arena Trap in the metagame. Dugtrio is obviously broken, and the other two are only used for cheese techs that make the metagame matchup reliant. However, in the end, as long as either Dugtrio or AT is banned I'd consider the problem dealt with. Dugtrio's speed and attack alongside its ability is what allows it to come back in and collect free kill one after another, and team preview enables this even further.

 

[peng]

Right this'll probably be my last post. Too many people saying that Diglett would only exist to remove Tyranitar and Exca which is false.

Here is what Diglett can feasibly achieve in OU - using either Adamant Choice Band (EQ and 3 fillers), or Focus Sash (EQ / Screech / Reversal / Sub, might sometimes want to use Protect if with TSpikes).

depends on def investment but CB traps and beats Clefable at 45%, Substitute+Screech is also decent owing to Clef's requirement to Wish Protect.
n/a
n/a
n/a
n/a
n/a (but actually beaten by Trick Iron Ball Clef (as seen in spl this year) + any Diglett set)
CB traps and KOs at 35%, Sash + Screech can do better even esp if packing reversal (up to 68% after a Screech). Any Sub variant does well vs Protect.
beaten at 55% by CB, again Sash + Screech can do work again depending on scald burn
depends on spread but Sash does 30%, band generally loses to Mach
sash can OHKO on a good roll, CB obv wins
varies heavily depending on set, if sash is activated then Reversal from adamant Diglett legitimately hurts (like 65%ish without a Screech). Mindgames between whether to Leech Seed to prevent Sash activation, or to attack to prevent giving Diglett a Sub+Screech. Either way if Ferro guesses wrong then Reversal after a Screech KOs.
n/a
n/a
sash revenge kills with reversal at ~50%
whirlwind effectively makes it effectively untrappable but in the rare situation it doesn't have it, subprotect + tspikes does work here.
CB EQ varies from 30 to 50% depending on set, Sash+Screech Reversal can remove at up to 65%ish depending on ability
n/a
depends on if its choiced and if it has u-turn. difficult to trap but in theory Diglett does revenge-kill CB sets.
CB does upwards of 50%
sash reversal
similar to Clef except you can't abuse Wish Protect by Subbing. Regardless, CB does 45%-66% depending on level of def investment, Sash+Screech also good.
n/a
obvious
mindgames but generally reversal and sub sets are good
spam EQ depending on speed
similar rolls to seismitoad
etc

I know those calcs look largely unimpressive, but actually consider this in the context of a game. Dragapult can U-turn out of Sylveon into Diglett, with CB sets then dealing 66% to hypothetical 252 hp / 0 def sylv. Even if Diglett hasn't KOd the target threat, it has significantly weakened Sylveon to the point that it is no longer a Dragapult answer without a huge turnaround in momentum. It has functionally done its job as a Sylveon trapper, and therefore, I don't know how we can sit here and say that Diglett is only good vs Ttar and Exca. You don't have to OHKO things to trap and neuter them.

I fully understand that there is more room for skill in manoeuvring around Diglett than there is vs Dugtrio. Dugtrio has the ability to 1v1 many relevant Pokemon, and therefore in combination with U-turn, players can get put in positions where there they had zero control vs Dugtrio. Diglett can perform this against certain select Pokemon (Ttar, Exca etc are hands down removed) whilst circumstantially being able to remove other Pokemon if lowered to somewhere like 30-60%.

This is where it gets sticky. We can sit and argue just how much damage an arena trap user needs to be able to do before we deem it broken. Apparently that number for many of you falls between 55 base attack and 100 base attack, because many think Dugtrio is broken but Diglett is not. Obviously there's an argument that if you let Sylveon get into Diglett range then you fucked up earlier in the game, which I think is a very very harsh approach to playing the game - really, if I let Sylveon get to 60% I deserve to automatically lose it on a U-turn? We're getting into the territory of "we can allow this broken ability on mons with base stats below xyz" which is just a messy area to be in, when in actuality Arena Trap would turn nearly any Pokemon in the game into a broken af trapper.

Before you all laugh at those calcs just bear in mind that at its very core Diglett literally lets the user pick and choose a Pokemon to put a free 30-50% on, this is something that players have always found a way to abuse and will inevitably do again even in a Dugtrio-less meta.

 

[JTD783]

I stand by the reasoning from previous generations, being that Arena Trap constricts and warps the meta and is inherently uncompetitive. Nothing has changed about the mechanic to affect these judgments. I am in favor of a quickban but a suspect test is needed at a minimum. It should not be ignored in favor of waiting or suspecting something else.

I do not believe Arena Trap is as dangerous as it was in previous gens due to the artificially smaller pool of pokemon available; however, this is not an argument for keeping Arena Trap, just an observation. With DLC coming the problem of Arena Trap will only get worse. It should be removed now, as it deserves to be, before it becomes an even bigger problem.

It was bullshit, it still is bullshit, it's going to be even more bullshit. Ban Arena Trap.

 

[Niftyyyy]

To keep this issue simple moving forward I believe all trapping abilities and moves should be banned. Trapping as a whole is uncompetitive. Arguing how much of this cancer we should be willing to allow is pointless when we can just get rid of it in its entirety and introduce a no trapping clause.

 

[McCoolDude]

To keep this issue simple moving forward I believe all trapping abilities and moves should be banned. Trapping as a whole is uncompetitive. Arguing how much of this cancer we should be willing to allow is pointless when we can just get rid of it in its entirety and introduce a no trapping clause.

I think there is a fundamental difference between trapping moves and passive trapping.

The first requires a switch-in and a turn to execute (so effectively two turns, or a lead), and many fade with time (so not a permatrap) or have lowered accuracy. They have an effective counterplay, and it's just switching before the move goes off. There are still mindgames on whether or not they're clicking the trap or a coverage move, but at the very least your freedom of choice is not automatically restricted with only a single turn cost from your opponent.

 

[tmacbalanced]

For anyone wondering if Diglett would be used: Ewin literally topped the ladder with Diglett and was the first to make it past 2000 ELO.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/earfquake-stall-peaked-1-2007-elo.3658209/
A lot of people used it too and it worked semi-consistently. The team even peaked in DMAX era as well.

Does this mean I win? People were asking for proof, so does this mean I ewin? Is Arena Trap going to be banned?
Nah, I'm just kidding. But this is solid proof.
After all this, I am curious as to what OU council thinks of Arena Trap as a whole.

 

[earl]

For anyone wondering if Diglett would be used: Ewin literally topped the ladder with Diglett and was the first to make it past 2000 ELO.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/earfquake-stall-peaked-1-2007-elo.3658209/

Diglett in this context only works with Dugtrio (screech a target, die, bring dugtrio in for the kill). This doesn't really prove Diglett's effectiveness in a vacuum.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

For anyone wondering if Diglett would be used: Ewin literally topped the ladder with Diglett and was the first to make it past 2000 ELO.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/earfquake-stall-peaked-1-2007-elo.3658209/
A lot of people used it too and it worked semi-consistently. The team even peaked in DMAX era as well.

Does this mean I win? People were asking for proof, so does this mean I ewin? Is Arena Trap going to be banned?
Nah, I'm just kidding. But this is solid proof.
After all this, I am curious as to what OU council thinks of Arena Trap as a whole.

This a proof which is supposedly good but then if you read the RMT you notice that most of diglett's work is also screeching to let dugtrio clear up with a newfound 1hko, this tactic cannot be feasible if diglett can't be paired with an extremely fast revengekiller that also traps (dugtrio). So yea while it definitely works (the team currently sucks against meta trends btw) the power lies specifically on dugtrio + diglett not on diglett alone. I'd also point out that the user had a pretty bad gxe.

 

[Macgg]

why are yall pretending like this conversation hasnt been had every single generation since gen 5. and AT has been banned in every gen since 5. stop this bullshit and just ban it. at this point you can just search the old threads and just copy and paste the points because overall the game has not changed. stop wasting time

Dugtrio was never banned until Gen 7 and then it was retroactively banned for Gen 5 and 6.

 

[theotherguytm]

from that RMT:

So the star of the team diglett! This mon is pretty much a meme but a decent meme to say the least.The point of Diglett is basically trap something screech them and maybe eq then revenge with Dugtrio, but other than that Diglett can actually trap some things that Dugtrio would also (Darm,toxtricity,Exca,etc) which is nice since your main trapper doesn’t have to sacrifice its sash, allowing you to maybe trap another important Pokémon. Again not much to say just trap shit and screech.

...
Diglet traps stuff. What more is there to say. A 265 BST mon traps and kills OU mons. If Diglet and Trapinch can trap and kill stuff, what can't?
Worth also noting Diglet can use Memento like Dugtrio to give a very free switch in to whatever you want to set up. And Diglet can supply Rocks if something passive is trapped/locked into Volt Switch like Dugtrio. So Diglet would have a place on HO as a revenge killer/general momentum gainer, very similar to what Duggy does rn for HO.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-473699
Dugtrio revenges a weakened Toad on turn 6, gets Rocks up and then Mementos to block Defog on turns 10-11, letting Cloyster in for free. Diglet would be able to do the exact same here.
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 91-108 (21.9 - 26%) (so at worst it would use its sash to kill in two, then do the exact same as Duggy does)
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (enough to scare out Chandelure like Duggy does in the replay)

 

[Nugget]

Dugtrio was never banned until Gen 7 and then it was retroactively banned for Gen 5 and 6.

You're right, Dugtrio was never banned until it was banned

also, what is your point exactly? It's been banned in every gen from 5 onward, regardless of when it was finally banned. The old gen players did not get stupider and then go back and ban Dugtrio/Arena Trap, they learned more about the metagame over a long period of time and realized/acknowledged that Dugtrio was not healthy for the metagame.

 

[Robot7620]

To keep this issue simple moving forward I believe all trapping abilities and moves should be banned. Trapping as a whole is uncompetitive. Arguing how much of this cancer we should be willing to allow is pointless when we can just get rid of it in its entirety and introduce a no trapping clause.

Magnet Pull on Magnezone is far less effective given the loss of HP, and therefore it could only trap Corviknight which U-Turn's out.
There is a big difference between trapping anything bar ghosts/flying (which you don't wanna trap anyways) and trapping something you generally can't hit effectively.

 

[GMars]

Cut it with the Magnet Pull discussion. It's not even in the game yet. Future posts on it will be deleted.

 

[Macgg]

You're right, Dugtrio was never banned until it was banned

also, what is your point exactly? It's been banned in every gen from 5 onward, regardless of when it was finally banned. The old gen players did not get stupider and then go back and ban Dugtrio/Arena Trap, they learned more about the metagame over a long period of time and realized/acknowledged that Dugtrio was not healthy for the metagame.

The point is AT Dugtrio actually went 4 generations before anything was done with it. It was never a major issue until after Dugtrio was buffed in Gen 7. They retroactively banned Dugtrio not because it was op during those previous gens, but because of the popularity of Dugtrio in the current gen. Dugtrio was a staple on Sun teams in Gen 5 (when it was the current gen) due to it being able to trap Ttar and nobody banned it then, despite being a crucial component to some team's ability to win the weather war. You're using a disingenuous argument in an attempt to shut down discussion towards keeping AT in the meta.

For the record, I'm for an AT ban; I just hate shitty arguments designed to shut down discussion.

 

[ReadTheMango]

Sorry to go back to an older post, but I noticed it hadn't been replied to, and I think it's certainly worth looking at. Even if this point has been rehashed elsewhere.

If Trapinch was so good, why noone is using it?

Why? Because it's outclassed by Duggy, who does the job of trapping a wider range of threats. Adding Trapinch into a team with Dugtrio already on it is redundant, adds a second pure ground type with garbage defensive stats and fundamentally constrains your teambuilding immensely. So people just utilise Duggy at the moment.

If given the option between a Pokemon that deals which invalidates a range of Pokemon, while also being useful against a wider range of Pokemon, vs one that deals with specific threats very well, but is usually useless against the wider pool, I know which most people will choose. However, were we to remove only Duggy, Trapinch would potentially be utilised more. Not to the extent that Duggy is now, but enough to be an issue. The point of theotherguytm (thanks for posting and discussing this btw) posting the Trapinch set is to highlight that there is a potential niche for another arena trap user, if we banned Duggy alone. Diglett has also been discussed at length in this thread, peng made a solid post just recently looking at what Diglett can do if we just banned Duggy.

In all honesty, I disagree with some of the posts looking at Diglett and Trapinch. When mention is made to these Pokemon 'should never see the light of day in OU' (I think this was you if I remember correctly Yung Dramps , apologies if I was mistaken). If a Pokemon has a niche in OU, it should be able to see usage in OU. Example, I still cannot believe something with Clef's stat spread is viable (and even one of the best mons) in OU. These are different scales of bad, but that isn't the point. If something is usable in OU, great. I couldn't care less if something like, I don't know, Pachirisu finds usage in OU. The problem here, lies in the fact that these Pokemon are viable due to their (in my opinion) uncompetitive ability.

But I digress, let's look at the other part of your opening statement Tzolkin.

It's because it is awful against everything else, if your opponent doesn't have it or one of the 4 other mons it can sort of trap, it is completely useless.

That's why he outlines it as a niche, a Pokemon which does a very specific thing which can enable other members of a team. To reiterate, part of the point of posting these sets is...

A) To highlight that two, quite frankly, 'terrible' Pokemon have theoretically viable niches in OU because of their ability that is (in my opinion) fundamentally uncompetitive.
B) Even if Dugtrio was removed as the issue here, there is a wider issue with Arena Trap as a whole, and what it can do.
C) The main thing gating usage on these mons is the presence of Duggy, which does the job better than either of these Pokemon. If Dugtrio was theoretically banned over Arena Trap as a whole, you would see these Pokemon on the ladder and even perhaps in Tour games. This would raise the question of 'is Arena Trap the issue?' and we would be right back into this kerfuffle.

To put my own point in here, I support either a quickban, or suspect test of Arena Trap. I am leaning towards a suspect test, only because there is significant enough resistance to banning Arena Trap > Dugtrio. I think it is worthwhile seeing how it goes.

Here's where I make quite an outlandish suggestion. We do an irregular suspect test (bolded so people can read my suggestion without needing to read the above wall of text.

I think it's pretty clear that at the very least, Dugtrio has to go. Therefore, here is my suggestion. We suspect test Arena Trap, but instead of just disallowing Arena Trap mons, we instead disallow Dugtrio, to see if Arena Trap Pokemon are still problematic in a metagame without Dugtrio. It skips the step of suspecting Dugtrio, which 100% of people in this thread agree is too much. The only issues really being raised in this thread are regarding which way we want to go on banning either AT or Duggy. So skipping the part of banning Duggy at the least, makes sense.

I understand people's desires to just get Arena Trap out ASAP; if it was just me deciding, I would quickban Arena Trap without a second thought. However, this leaves an issue of completely ignoring a vocal minority of people who want to see Dugtrio gone and not Arena Trap, and those who want Arena Trap to go through due process, which I can understand.

 

[KztxL7]

In all honesty, I disagree with some of the posts looking at Diglett and Trapinch. When mention is made to these Pokemon 'should never see the light of day in OU' (I think this was you if I remember correctly Yung Dramps , apologies if I was mistaken). If a Pokemon has a niche in OU, it should be able to see usage in OU. Example, I still cannot believe something with Clef's stat spread is viable (and even one of the best mons) in OU. These are different scales of bad, but that isn't the point. If something is usable in OU, great. I couldn't care less if something like, I don't know, Pachirisu finds usage in OU. The problem here, lies in the fact that these Pokemon are viable due to their (in my opinion) uncompetitive ability.

That was me specifically who said that and I still stand by it.

Clefable has an underwhelming stat spread, true but if anything it was one of the few things that keeps it from being broken/suspect worthy. All of its other traits are great but not overwhelming making up for it's lackluster stats keeping it in line with it's fellow OU peers.

Meanwhile you have two Pokemon whose reason to be picked in OU is because of an overwhelming ability that can't be replicated by anything else there. Because once you get past that you realize that everything else about them doesn't even scream UU outside of meme stats. They don't even break 300 stats.

 

[Empress Mobile]

The point is AT Dugtrio actually went 4 generations before anything was done with it. It was never a major issue until after Dugtrio was buffed in Gen 7. They retroactively banned Dugtrio not because it was op during those previous gens, but because of the popularity of Dugtrio in the current gen. Dugtrio was a staple on Sun teams in Gen 5 (when it was the current gen) due to it being able to trap Ttar and nobody banned it then. You're using a disingenuous argument in an attempt to shut down discussion towards keeping AT in the meta.

For the record, I'm for an AT ban; I just hate shitty arguments designed to shut down discussion.

Well, what happened in gen 5 is actually a great reason to QB Arena Trap and only AT right away. We lost an interesting playstyle in Chlorophyll-based sun offense and ended up with yet another complex ban which hasn't been reversed due to the excessive high functioning of Dugtrio-enabled sun teams with Xatu/Espeon and Ninetales. Rather than it simply being its later popularity in gen 7 that brought about its ban in gen 5, it seems people simply reasoned that maybe some of the things ruining gen 5 ou were also related to AT. Diglett is awful, but it was just not-awful enough to get rid of Heatran and Tyranitar in gen 5, there is really no reason to see if it'd do similar things in gen 8 as it adds nothing to the metagame but a cheese strategy. And the argument about gen 6 was silly. Dugtrio rose to OU in gen 6 on one of the last tier shifts, and AT was banned shortly after it was so in gen 7. It's not like it was a major metagame force all generation and people just dealt with it. Team Preview is what makes it broken, not the 20 point buffed attack which admittedly does compound the problem.

 

[ReadTheMango]

My apologies KztxL7, I was going off of memory.

I actually agree with you to an extent, Clef was just an underwhelming example. I think Diglett and Trapinch are complete memes who are only viable because of their overwhelming ability. Where we differ is that this is fine to me, except that the ability in question is Arena Trap.

What I was trying to express is that Pokemon with shitty stat spreads etc. are completely okay in my eyes, so long as there is a niche for them to fill. A better example would probably be Shedinja, who also only has a niche in OU due to its fantastic ability. It's not particularly good at the moment, but can put in serious work if the opponent has no answer to it.

There is however, a fundamental difference between the example of Shedinja, and Trapinch/Diglett (and this argument is splashable to the worse STag Users like Wynaut and Gothita). That difference is an issue of how competitive trapping abilities which trap 80-90% of pokemon are. My point being, they are fundamentally uncompetitive. They ultimately lead to situations where a player has their 4G3NC agency taken away from them, and whole scores of Pokemon are made unviable / unfairly difficult to play against both Dugtrio and also worse users of these trapping abilities. Again, throwback to this stupid replay, which to date is one of the grossest ones I've seen. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-39893

That's just my two cents, and doesn't add too much to the discussion here, but I wanted to clear it up regardless.

 

[Macgg]

Well, what happened in gen 5 is actually a great reason to QB Arena Trap and only AT right away. We lost an interesting playstyle in Chlorophyll-based sun offense and ended up with yet another complex ban which hasn't been reversed due to the excessive high functioning of Dugtrio-enabled sun teams with Xatu/Espeon and Ninetales. Rather than it simply being its later popularity in gen 7 that brought about its ban in gen 5, it seems people simply reasoned that maybe some of the things ruining gen 5 ou were also related to AT. Diglett is awful, but it was just not-awful enough to get rid of Heatran and Tyranitar in gen 5, there is really no reason to see if it'd do similar things in gen 8 as it adds nothing to the metagame but a cheese strategy. And the argument about gen 6 was silly. Dugtrio rose to OU in gen 6 on one of the last tier shifts, and AT was banned shortly after it was so in gen 7. It's not like it was a major metagame force all generation and people just dealt with it. Team Preview is what makes it broken, not the 20 point buffed attack which admittedly does compound the problem.

Honestly, I wasn't around for the last half of gen 6. I remember coming back at the beginning of gen 7 and Dugtrio was hyped. That's very strange that Dugtrio was as strong as you say at the end of gen 6 but GF decided to boost it's att by 20. At the end of the day, I'm on your side here with the AT ban as it's not healthy for competitive play overall.

I was mainly focusing my comments at the person who used the retroactive bans of Dugtrio as a means to shut down discussion for Gen 8 Dugtrio.