On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]

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The discussion is useless at this point, I'd like to point out that shed shell is considered by everyone a valid counterplay option (even worry seed) on a plethora of pokemon. The fact that heatran joins this group shouldn't be a problem, really. Your argument about quagsire is misguided, I was merely saying that we are using a shitmon with a strong abilty in OU, in the same way we could be using diglett or trapinch. You seem to suggest that it's ludicrous having a diglett trap a staple OU threat such as heatran. I find this argument nonsense for the aforementioned reason.
 
The discussion is useless at this point, I'd like to point out that shed shell is considered by everyone a valid counterplay option (even worry seed) on a plethora of pokemon. The fact that heatran joins this group shouldn't be a problem, really. Your argument about quagsire is misguided, I was merely saying that we are using a shitmon with a strong abilty in OU, in the same way we could be using diglett or trapinch. You seem to suggest that it's ludicrous having a diglett trap a staple OU threat such as heatran. I find this argument nonsense for the aforementioned reason.
Just gonna point out ppl have used water absorb quag this gen showing its not a "shitmon" without unaware and your comparison is frankly garbage.
 
I've gotten multiple replays for all of you so, all of you can gauge out how strong Trapinch & Diglett are for yourselves.
Big thanks to Finchinator and theotherguytm for helping me with the replays. I greatly appreciate it. They are busy people so, it was nice of them to help me out.
Building with Diglett was tough, it's not as strong as Trapinch and definitely not as good as Dugtrio. But, I felt that I was able to use it on multiple teams and that if there was plenty of targets, then Diglett would be trapping 1 or 2 threats pretty successfully.
I wanted to get more replays but, I was running into more Dugtrios, and I felt that it wouldn't be a good representation of Diglett fitting in the meta w/o Dugtrio & I'm not a good enough player to be playing with a handicap lol

I urge all of you to give Diglett & Trapinch a try for yourselves and see if they really good or bad as been said in this thread.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1058978428 - First Diglett match
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1059821985 - Dugtrio + Trapinch vs Diglett
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1059818463 - HO Unburden Hawlucha vs Diglett
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1059214372 - Diglett vs Dracovish
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1060598746 - Diglett vs Finchinator
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1058816187 - Trapinch vs Seismitoad
 
I've gotten multiple replays for all of you so, all of you can gauge out how strong Trapinch & Diglett are for yourselves.
Big thanks to Finchinator and theotherguytm for helping me with the replays. I greatly appreciate it. They are busy people so, it was nice of them to help me out.
Building with Diglett was tough, it's not as strong as Trapinch and definitely not as good as Dugtrio. But, I felt that I was able to use it on multiple teams and that if there was plenty of targets, then Diglett would be trapping 1 or 2 threats pretty successfully.
I wanted to get more replays but, I was running into more Dugtrios, and I felt that it wouldn't be a good representation of Diglett fitting in the meta w/o Dugtrio & I'm not a good enough player to be playing with a handicap lol

I urge all of you to give Diglett & Trapinch a try for yourselves and see if they really good or bad as been said in this thread.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1058978428 - First Diglett match
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1059821985 - Dugtrio + Trapinch vs Diglett
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1059818463 - HO Unburden Hawlucha vs Diglett
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1059214372 - Diglett vs Dracovish
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1060598746 - Diglett vs Finchinator
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1058816187 - Trapinch vs Seismitoad
I appreciate you took some time for laddering but you have basically no points, you're in the range of 1200-1300, which greatly influences the value of your games.

First : your opponent has a terrible team and diglett... trapped aegislash?
Second: I don't know what to say. You are playing against a dude with togetic. Also diglett was completely useless and lost to toxapex. Trapinch almost died with doing 6% damage
Third: You got a sucker punch on polteageist, but you could have killed polt with corviknight. Also diglett didn't use AT since it's a ghost type.
Fourth: I guess here diglett did something useful for the first time. Didn't even kill tyranitar though...
Fifth: Diglett was a dead slot, you played 5v6;
Sixth: Interesting game in the fact that you would have won with or without diglett and even without dracovish, furthermore chipping down seism with dracovish would have been easy;


I respect the time you took to gather the replays but they prove my points and are pretty useless anyway given your ladder score.
I question why people gave you like, did they even watch the replays? I guess not
 
I appreciate you took some time for laddering but you have basically no points, you're in the range of 1200-1300, which greatly influences the value of your games.

First : your opponent has a terrible team and diglett... trapped aegislash?
Second: I don't know what to say. You are playing against a dude with togetic. Also diglett was completely useless and lost to toxapex. Trapinch almost died with doing 6% damage
Third: You got a sucker punch on polteageist, but you could have killed polt with corviknight. Also diglett didn't use AT since it's a ghost type.
Fourth: I guess here diglett did something useful for the first time. Didn't even kill tyranitar though...
Fifth: Diglett was a dead slot, you played 5v6;
Sixth: Interesting game in the fact that you would have won with or without diglett and even without dracovish, furthermore chipping down seism with dracovish would have been easy;


I respect the time you took to gather the replays but they prove my points and are pretty useless anyway given your ladder score.
I question why people gave you like, did they even watch the replays? I guess not
Ladder score doesn't really matter, it's the value of the replay that does. Anyone can be at low ladder because everyone has to start at low ladder. Which is why I was hoping to find at least a few decent teams before running into Dugtrio spam. I couldn't really find much but, that's why I used Diglett as much as I could in each replay, even against Finch.
In the third replay, I couldn't kill Polteageist with Corviknight because it was U-Turn + Body Press. I had to U-Turn out.
The replay against Finch may have seemed that Diglett didn't do anything but, it actually made Finch careful in using Excadrill and helped me not auto-lose to Aegislash.
It is weird that Diglett was oddly useful against ghosts, considering the fact that it cannot trap ghosts.
They gave likes probably because of the time it took for me to get the replays and because of Trapinch beating Seismitoad.

In using Diglett as much as I could, people can see how strong it is and what kind of strats they can opt for if Dugtrio gets banned. The last replay was just to prove that Trapinch could trap Seismitoad. They aren't perfect replays but, that's what I pointed out since the beginning. I definitely couldn't go higher on the ladder without versing Dugtrio with a Diglett, I'd lose and it wouldn't showcase anything we don't already know: Dugtrio is better than Diglett. If you look in the Dugtrio match, I had to run a team that was overprepared for it but, ended up having trouble with other threats. Which is why I had to stop at the part of the ladder.
 
You played against Bigger Needle (unregistered 1000 points alt), Darc magik4 (1068, 650 games, 48% gxe), Danpkmnmaster (1268, 135 games, 53% gxe), Matiasop99 (1073, 117 games, 32% gxe), and dulcis in fundo, NiceNameNerd (1500, 2354 games, 57% gxe). These are clearly not the next top 500 players by any means. So yea...I don't think they show anything at all.
 
Honestly, I feel like at this point we should just have a suspect test where Dugtrio is banned and see how good Diglett and Trapinch truly are in the current metagame (no, I feel like comparing their power from earlier metagames is not enough proof, because… well, metagames are different!).

The metagame shows to be fine with Diglett and Trapinch around despite initial doubts? Ban Dugtrio.

The metagame shows that Diglett and Trapinch can pull off their weight and be as annoying as speculated? Ban Arena Trap.

I mean, isn’t banning something based on theorymoning frowned upon? It would be ideal if we had actual proof of the worth of Diglett/Trapinch with gameplay, rather than relying on simple lists of calcs that may be barely relevant in the actual games.

These are my two cents. I’m personally neutral on the whole Dugtrio vs Arena Trap debate.
 
Ladder score doesn't really matter, it's the value of the replay that does. Anyone can be at low ladder because everyone has to start at low ladder. Which is why I was hoping to find at least a few decent teams before running into Dugtrio spam. I couldn't really find much but, that's why I used Diglett as much as I could in each replay, even against Finch.
In the third replay, I couldn't kill Polteageist with Corviknight because it was U-Turn + Body Press. I had to U-Turn out.
The replay against Finch may have seemed that Diglett didn't do anything but, it actually made Finch careful in using Excadrill and helped me not auto-lose to Aegislash.
It is weird that Diglett was oddly useful against ghosts, considering the fact that it cannot trap ghosts.
They gave likes probably because of the time it took for me to get the replays and because of Trapinch beating Seismitoad.

In using Diglett as much as I could, people can see how strong it is and what kind of strats they can opt for if Dugtrio gets banned. The last replay was just to prove that Trapinch could trap Seismitoad. They aren't perfect replays but, that's what I pointed out since the beginning. I definitely couldn't go higher on the ladder without versing Dugtrio with a Diglett, I'd lose and it wouldn't showcase anything we don't already know: Dugtrio is better than Diglett. If you look in the Dugtrio match, I had to run a team that was overprepared for it but, ended up having trouble with other threats. Which is why I had to stop at the part of the ladder.

I tend to agree that ladder score is usually not a great metric to judge viability, as viability tends to waver a bit at different areas of the ladder. Some specific sets are only really useable to counter specific threats usually seen at high ladder. (Air balloon dragapult is a good example - it's used because it hard-walls conks not carrying EQ or Ice punch, which only break into the majority above ~1700 ELO.)

That said, in one of your replays Diglett was completely useless (did literally nothing vs Aegislash). In two others, your opponent's lack of knowledge was evident, as Aegislash (a different one) and Polteageist are not trapped by AT but remained in on a losing matchup purely based on the "you might be trapped" message.

The two real examples I could see where Diglett did anything useful were the 50% chip on pex (allowing NP rotom to set up fairly safely and keep its sub) and the 80% or so it did to ttar.

Trapinch, however, was fairly convincing, as it was able to force Seismitoad to play conservatively for the whole match while still eventually removing it to open a door for Dracovish.
 
I tend to agree that ladder score is usually not a great metric to judge viability, as viability tends to waver a bit at different areas of the ladder. Some specific sets are only really useable to counter specific threats usually seen at high ladder. (Air balloon dragapult is a good example - it's used because it hard-walls conks not carrying EQ or Ice punch, which only break into the majority above ~1700 ELO.)

That said, in one of your replays Diglett was completely useless (did literally nothing vs Aegislash). In two others, your opponent's lack of knowledge was evident, as Aegislash (a different one) and Polteageist are not trapped by AT but remained in on a losing matchup purely based on the "you might be trapped" message.

The two real examples I could see where Diglett did anything useful were the 50% chip on pex (allowing NP rotom to set up fairly safely and keep its sub) and the 80% or so it did to ttar.

Trapinch, however, was fairly convincing, as it was able to force Seismitoad to play conservatively for the whole match while still eventually removing it to open a door for Dracovish.
Actually correction, for ghosts the "you might be trapped" message doesn't show up at all so ;-;
Also ladder score may not be the only judgement, Mr Ponty also posted GXE w/ number of games, most of them at 100+ games and if they're still at that low of a ladder score (no offense) it might not be the best of judgement to use those replays as a yardstick.
 
Also, I consider in the Trapinch replay that I played garbage for most of the game, and should have trapped Toad about 50 or more turns before I finally did...
In fact, with my current play I would have trapped Toad on turn 1, as I now lead with Trapinch against Toad teams (for fun and interactive gameplay). If I had predicted the obvious Stealth Rock, I would have trapped Toad on turn 2. I was doing pretty badly I thought, and was even in danger of losing, until Trapinch nailed Toad, then Corv was able to neutralise Clef and Hydreigon by setting up without fearing Scald burns, then Vish came alive, and I had a won game from there. In fact if I'd wanted, I could have got 3 kills with Pinch that game (moonblastless Clef, Hydrei and ofc Toad), but I preferred Vish running the team over.
As for chipping Toad down, he had Wish passing and I had no practical way of dealing more than 30% bar Clef's Moonblast, which you may notice I fired off just a few times, and ofc Pinch.
(Quick shoutout to Iron Defence Corv for using a Dragon Dance Gyarados as setup fodder while also being my Defogger I never used lol.)
I had another game where Eject Pack Rotom-H worked to perfection, but I managed to misplay my way out of a Vish 6-0. I was so upset I forgot to save the replay, and promptly tilted my way down the ladder...
As for the Diglett replays:
1: Yeah, bad opposion, but as the saying goes: "You can only beat what's put in front of you". When Diglett comes out, the optimal play is actually to sac Duggy, as none of the opposing mons switch in safely to Diglett. But just on matchup, it's a miracle it did anything really. It can't trap and beat anything on the opposing team with Webs up.
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 157-186 (46 - 54.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Mew is forced to attack without setting up)
2: Not how I would have played the Pex trap (I'd have personally weakened Pex, but he found it more useful to force damage on Pex). Also lowkey, if magik is using my Pinch set and doesn't go hard into Hydreigon earlier (wtf, he could have just sacced the Hat or gone into Pex), Pinch kills Rotom-W with First Impression then does its thing on the Toad to win the game.
3: Again, in this matchup it's a miracle it does anything, let alone providing the priority that takes down a rampaging sweeper (also the opponent was good enough to predict the Hippo switch-in)
4: 252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 288-342 (82 - 97.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 288-342 (84.4 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Unlucky.
5: From Team Preview 4 of Finch's mons are untrappable (two flyers, a Ghost and a Rotom) and Kommo is out of reach for any Arena Trap mon. The fact it forces Finch to not use Drill after it's taken the hit and forces out Aegi (as well as beating it with a bit more outplay) is silly. This is a matchup where it is literally useless on paper, yet it ends up doing things anyway. Lol. Ban this garbage. And the reason he lost is two of his mons got Tricked and crippled, nothing to do with Diglett being dead weight (In fact Diglett puts in more work than Corv and Dragapult lol).
On another note, @ everyone who said "Why isn't trapping being used in lower tiers?" From the RU metagame thread:

Finally this satanic piece of garbage is perhaps the other main reason for sun being so crazy good. Since the entire meta is built around Gigalith being the main rocker in the tier, sun teams with Trapinch can just trap Gigalith and with 2 EQs they just remove the main counter meassure opposing teams have, which is Gigalith's Sand Stream. Trapping proves to be as dumb stupid as it has always been.
 
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I'd also want to point out that discussions around bans happen all the time after the initial unbans at the start of a new metagame. That doesn't mean that discussing them was pointless in the past and/or right now.
 
it's been very ciricular right now and you have been the main reason for that. the metagame has not changed that much yet you have been relentlessly incorrigible in your stance and understanding how and why arena trap is inherently uncompetitive. this is why I suggested that you and a few others read the past threads on this, so that this will clear up any suspicion or any fog that has been clouding your judgment. the baseline game not changed for competitive that much in nearly a decade. this is pretty straight forward, I dont need to explain how if we are on the topic of how diglett shouldn't be able to apply pressure to your squad; that's a pretty good indicator that this is gotten out of hand
 
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Slightly off-topic but we really need a minimum ladder score for replays. Posting replays for games under 1500 or so is basically as useful as not posting replays at all. It's a terrible representation of what those Pokemon are capable of against actually competent opponents and often indicates a lack of skill/metagame knowledge of the poster, which is obviously not what you want when you're trying to make an argument for or against a Pokemon.

As for Diglett/Trapinch, I don't think the amount of things they can trap is relevant. I'm in the camp that believes that trapping is fundamentally broken in general (and yes, that includes that ability that must not be named, but that's a topic for another day and another thread). Switching is an integral part of counterplay and removing access to it essentially removes access to counterplay. Even if only a small portion of Pokemon are affected I still believe it is uncompetitive in the circumstances where it is effective and should be banned as such.

I do wish the OU council would hurry up and do something though. We're repeating the Galarian Darmanitan situation again, just like zero people were arguing that G-Darm wasn't broken and everyone was instead arguing if G-Darm as a whole or Gorilla Tactics specifically was the problem, zero people are arguing that Dugtrio isn't broken and instead the focus is Dugtrio vs Arena Trap (and to a slightly lesser extent suspect vs quickban). Last generation's metagame experienced long periods of stagnation and unhealthiness and I would point to the council's inaction as being partially responsible for it. I thought they were committed to making sure that doesn't happen again this generation, but actions speak louder than words, and so far actions have been noticeably lacking.
 

Yung Dramps

pawsome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
I do wish the OU council would hurry up and do something though. We're repeating the Galarian Darmanitan situation again, just like zero people were arguing that G-Darm wasn't broken and everyone was instead arguing if G-Darm as a whole or Gorilla Tactics specifically was the problem, zero people are arguing that Dugtrio isn't broken and instead the focus is Dugtrio vs Arena Trap (and to a slightly lesser extent suspect vs quickban). Last generation's metagame experienced long periods of stagnation and unhealthiness and I would point to the council's inaction as being partially responsible for it. I thought they were committed to making sure that doesn't happen again this generation, but actions speak louder than words, and so far actions have been noticeably lacking.
To add on to this: I feel like for future On the Radars the council should set an official deadline for discussion. Give it like 3-4 days, and then lock the thread and release a verdict on the matter.
 
because the possibility of quickban is on the table and some people get upset when the council quickbans shit out of the blue.

If this was purely about 'should we suspect test x' then I'd agree with you, just throw out the test, but if quick ban is on the table then it's worth at least discussing if it should be quickbanned or if there should be a test. If the subject falls between 'unbanned and suspect test for ban', then just test it. If it falls between 'suspect test or quick ban', then these threads are worth having.

I don't see much point of having these once everything that can be quick banned is dealt with, but as long as stuff that the council can get away with quickbanning exists, then it's worth asking the community if they want a quick ban. Because nothing's more redundant than spending a month testing something everyone knows is going to get booted in a suspect test.

On topic, it's been beaten to death, but I think the fact that trapinch/diggy can't trap everything duggy can is irrelevant. You're running them to snipe specific counters to your team, as long as that criteria is met then they are worth using (and broken)
 
because the possibility of quickban is on the table and some people get upset when the council quickbans shit out of the blue.

If this was purely about 'should we suspect test x' then I'd agree with you, just throw out the test, but if quick ban is on the table then it's worth at least discussing if it should be quickbanned or if there should be a test. If the subject falls between 'unbanned and suspect test for ban', then just test it. If it falls between 'suspect test or quick ban', then these threads are worth having.

I don't see much point of having these once everything that can be quick banned is dealt with, but as long as stuff that the council can get away with quickbanning exists, then it's worth asking the community if they want a quick ban. Because nothing's more redundant than spending a month testing something everyone knows is going to get booted in a suspect test.
The problem is, they could have opened and concluded a suspect test in less time than the discussion on this thread has been going on for, which would have rendered the entire "suspect vs quickban" debate irrelevant. If suspect vs quickban is going to be the topic of the thread, like Dramps said it should only be open for a few days at most or else it defeats the entire purpose of having that discussion to begin with.
 
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they first floated the duggy/trap issue 8 days ago, saying we could have concluded a suspect test by then is a gross overstatement, we likely wouldn't be close to an actual vote in 8 days yet.

I absolutely don't disagree that this thread should have been closed a while back, but the person I was responding to was arguing that we shouldn't have these at all, we just skip straight to test.
 
they first floated the duggy/trap issue 8 days ago, saying we could have concluded a suspect test by then is a gross overstatement, we likely wouldn't be close to an actual vote in 8 days yet.

I absolutely don't disagree that this thread should have been closed a while back, but the person I was responding to was arguing that we shouldn't have these at all, we just skip straight to test.
Yeah, my bad, the discussion had been taking place on the metagame discussion thread before it was brought up in this one, but it's still essentially the same discussion and the point still stands that if this thread is to serve its purpose it needs to be done faster. Even 8 days is longer than needed and the fact that the last 2 pages (at least) are basically nothing but people arguing in circles makes this evident.
 
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I agree that Shadow Tag and Arena Trap should be treated the same. While yeah, there are some differences of what the abilities allow to trap I feel its hard to justify why one ability is more broken than the other. As I started playing on Showdown the thing that suprised me the most was the lack of the question "Do you want to switch your Pokemon?" (do note: I don't play Pokemon competily on the cartridge cuz its dumb slow so Im not aware how the rules are there.). The point im trying to make is being able to switch your `mon might be the most important part of the game. It should not be like "I made a clever double switch and now you CANNOT do anything about it anymore cuz im going to murder your Clef/Seis/Toxa/whatever."
Discussing whether its Dugtrios stats/typing or if AT is the part that makes Dugtrio broken is like a circle that (obviously) won't end. Nobody can argue if its really just Dugtrio that is broken or not cuz its highly personal. Removing AT form Dug would immediately made him garbage. That alone is not how I would ever decide for myself an ability is broken because there are quite a few mons who would get (much) worse with a replaced ability (eg Togekiss without Serene Grace and just left with its other abilitys feels kind of meh to me). But taking into account that Trapinch and Diglett would never even be mentioned without AT might be an indicator that their shared ability is at least very strong.
For me the point about AT is like doping. Im not saying that AT is illegal because it is not. And not everyone who dopes is better than those who don't. But doping it still is forbidden because it is seen as unhealthy in a wide perspective. Same is with AT. Not every `mon with AT is automatically broken. (Lets face it, Diglett and Trapinch or not really Pokemon you feel about busted right? The pressure they radiate is not like Dugtrios. It is just the ability AT.) But the thing that they enable you to do is still feels broken and unfair in a game where it is all about switching and reacting.

To sum it up: AT (and Shadow Tag too) feels like something similar than doping. Not every ´mon is outright busted with it, but it is still unhealthy in a game where you have to switch to react. Or at least being able to do so. Arguing about whether a Pokemon is busted just because AT or cuz of the combination of its stats and AT is understandable but even harder to do.
(And its been a real while since I have ever written something in English so im very mediocre if not outright bad. Sorry about that.)
 
I am kinda tired of all of this. I already expressed my view about Dugtrio long ago in another thread, so won,t repeat myself, especially when everyone has already used the same arguments I would do.
Thing is, almost everyone here agrees that the combination of Dugtrio + Arena Trap is either broken or uncompetitive (probably both). Yet nothing is done because people are discussing whether the problem is Dugtrio or the ability.

So, what needs to be done, in my opion is:
1. BAN Dugtrio (with a Quickban if possible). Almost everyone thinks that the combination of Dugtrio and Arena Trap needs to go, so what problem do we have for just banning the Mon? No collateral damage is done, since it will take time for a Tier to appear (probably PU, but could be as far as ZU) in which non-Arena Trap Dugtrio would be remotely viable.
2. Then, with Dugtrio banned, just follow the discussion currently held and if Arena Trap is the issue, just ban the ability and unban Dugtrio after that.

What is happening right now is the same discussion about whether the problem is Dugtrio or Arena Trap, while everyone agrees that the combination of both has no place in the OU Metagame. And everyone has known that for far longer time than the day this thread was re-opened. The Meta is still in not a good shape and Dugtrio + Arena Trap is clearly the culprit. What I am asking for is to end with this nonsense and then discuss less relevant problems, since we all know that even if Diglett and Trapinch are uncompetitive with Arena Trap, they are clearly worse than Dugtrio and trap far less Mons.
 
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