Reading this thread closely, I think there's a good reason for why it's more or less devolved into whether it's Darmanitan as a whole or GT that needs to be looked at. That's because more or less everyone agrees GT Darm is a broken Pokemon and it needs to be looked into for the reasons stated by people like Durza, Gary, and the OP itself. Also, there are very few posts defending GT Darmanitan as being ok for the tier, and most of the ones that do defend it aren't the most well thought out. I think at this point, the debate should be which to suspect and then whether we quickban or suspect test. Personally, seeing as this metagame is really new now that Dynamax has gotten the boot, I think a suspect test is preferable but I'm not totally against the idea of a quickban.
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On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]
- Thread starter bro fist
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Hi, I dont post here often but ive played competitive on and off since the beginning of gen 4 and I want to say I really dont agree with a decision to discuss any bans now, particularly of this Pokemon.
Dynamaxing was one of the most meta defining mechanics in the history of Pokemon, if not the most. It affected teambuilding in a way ive never seen anything do before, it was a mechanic so crazy that Ditto was nearly required on many teams because the sweeping potential of many dmaxers was way too strong.
As of today, it has been 3 days since this mechanic was banned. The meta has not had any time to shape or develop since, and I do not feel anyone can make an accurate statement on how the meta is going to balance out at this current time regardless of their skill level.
Galardarm was one of the strongest dynamaxers and is a lot weaker without it, so I believe a lot of hate towards him is carried over from the previous meta.
While I do believe galardarm is a very powerful Pokemon I think he has enough flaws that a suspect test, let alone a quickban, is not justified until this post-dynamax meta has had more time to pan out. He is an extraordinarily powerful wall breaker, however both sets have their flaws and counterplay despite not having consistent counters. Running 2 sets that have to run the same moveset also makes him incredibly predictable (band and scarf).
Stealth rock weakness and awful defensive typing prevents galardarm in general from being a switch-in to the majority of the meta. He cannot switch in safely on anything with decent offensive stats or the ability to cause burn, something many powerful walls have. Even some traditionally passive pokemon like Ferrothorn can slam him with a Gyro ball. Because of this hes almost entirely relegated to being a revenge killer.
While the band set is a powerful wallbreaker, it sits in an awkward speed tier that leaves it weak to any offensive teams that have a plethora of threats that can potentially outspeed and OHKO it like Dragapult and Cinderace. The choice scarf set doesnt have enough power to break through critical defensive mons like Galarian Corsola.
I also want to draw comparison to Darmanitan from previous gens, who had a better defensive typing, the same base stats, and sheer force boosted Flare Blitz that hits even harder than Galardarm icicle crash, yet this mon was never considered broken.
While Galardarm is incredibly powerful i really dont think his power justifies a ban consideration in the slightest, at least right now. The meta deserves more time to be played with in a world where dmax darm doesnt exist.
Dynamaxing was one of the most meta defining mechanics in the history of Pokemon, if not the most. It affected teambuilding in a way ive never seen anything do before, it was a mechanic so crazy that Ditto was nearly required on many teams because the sweeping potential of many dmaxers was way too strong.
As of today, it has been 3 days since this mechanic was banned. The meta has not had any time to shape or develop since, and I do not feel anyone can make an accurate statement on how the meta is going to balance out at this current time regardless of their skill level.
Galardarm was one of the strongest dynamaxers and is a lot weaker without it, so I believe a lot of hate towards him is carried over from the previous meta.
While I do believe galardarm is a very powerful Pokemon I think he has enough flaws that a suspect test, let alone a quickban, is not justified until this post-dynamax meta has had more time to pan out. He is an extraordinarily powerful wall breaker, however both sets have their flaws and counterplay despite not having consistent counters. Running 2 sets that have to run the same moveset also makes him incredibly predictable (band and scarf).
Stealth rock weakness and awful defensive typing prevents galardarm in general from being a switch-in to the majority of the meta. He cannot switch in safely on anything with decent offensive stats or the ability to cause burn, something many powerful walls have. Even some traditionally passive pokemon like Ferrothorn can slam him with a Gyro ball. Because of this hes almost entirely relegated to being a revenge killer.
While the band set is a powerful wallbreaker, it sits in an awkward speed tier that leaves it weak to any offensive teams that have a plethora of threats that can potentially outspeed and OHKO it like Dragapult and Cinderace. The choice scarf set doesnt have enough power to break through critical defensive mons like Galarian Corsola.
I also want to draw comparison to Darmanitan from previous gens, who had a better defensive typing, the same base stats, and sheer force boosted Flare Blitz that hits even harder than Galardarm icicle crash, yet this mon was never considered broken.
While Galardarm is incredibly powerful i really dont think his power justifies a ban consideration in the slightest, at least right now. The meta deserves more time to be played with in a world where dmax darm doesnt exist.
This fails to recognize that:
1) in previous gens, there were a lot more mons that could defensively or offensively check darmanitan,
2) Ice is a much more spammable type than fire, with no chance for flash fire shenanigans,
3) Flare blitz had massive recoil that icicle crash doesn’t give,
4) Gorrila tactics means it effectively gets the sheer force boost alongside another choice band or a choice scarf, and
5) hazard removal is a LOT easier this gen, with rapid spin’s buffs and court change, alongside simply having less hazard setters.
Darmanitan has it a lot easier this time around.
Also, does life orb + sheer force flare blitz really hit harder than CBCB icicle crash? Can’t check rn but that feels weird to me.
Flareblitz: 120bp * 5/3=200bp
Icycle crash: 85bp *2.25=191.25bp
For the last one I was comparing scarf gdarm to scarf darm since thats the most fair comparison because they both have the restriction of being choice locked.
That last point about old darm was probably the weakest point in my argument to be fair, I mafe it more to point out that something with similar utility existed in the past, i understand old darm isnt as good as gdarm for those reasons. However i still think my main point that a balanced team has more than enough utility and resources to deal with both potential gdarm sets still stands.
This comparison is really off. For one, Kyurem didn't have a spammable Ice STAB whatsoever. Plus its inability to effectively run scarf left it easily revenge killed by a multitude of threats, including Kartana, some Lando-T sets, Ditto, virtually every rain sweeper, and even slow Ferrothorn which could easily tank any hit. The comparison is so far off it hardly warrants consideration. The counterplay to G Darm basically involves trying to guess the set, and if you're wrong you autolose. A more apt comparison would be Salamence once Platinum was released.
Please explain how you autolose if you guess from darms amazingly diverse 2 sets incorrectly.
Unless they fixed Gorilla Tactics (doesn't look like they did):
(252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 351-413 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
(+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 330-388 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO)
Regular Darm does actually outdamage Darm-Galar... though that's ignoring the better offensive attack typing, the better coverage moves, the existence (or lack there-of) of multiple types of Pokemon to check, set-up and sweep against it (like most dragons, gyarados, anything that was naturally faster than it), and the fact that G-Darm can still put out relevant enough damage to both hold a CS and produce this kind of damage, while Darm is forced to be in a lower speed order if it wants to generate this kind of output (and not get immediately get KO'd because it didn't one-shot its opponent).
(252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 351-413 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
(+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 330-388 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO)
Regular Darm does actually outdamage Darm-Galar... though that's ignoring the better offensive attack typing, the better coverage moves, the existence (or lack there-of) of multiple types of Pokemon to check, set-up and sweep against it (like most dragons, gyarados, anything that was naturally faster than it), and the fact that G-Darm can still put out relevant enough damage to both hold a CS and produce this kind of damage, while Darm is forced to be in a lower speed order if it wants to generate this kind of output (and not get immediately get KO'd because it didn't one-shot its opponent).
I'd say you mostly autolose if you are either trying to choice lock but darmanitan is zen mode (which gives him free belly drum + salac activation) or you are at a serious disadvantage and straight lose one pokemon if you lose the guess-predict of one of its 4 moves since they cover most of the metagame (while u-turn gives free momentum).
I'd say the power of G-Darm doesn't come from its vast movepool but the amount of threats it covers with the 4 standard moves of its GT set.
I personally feel as though a suspect test on G-Darm would be the best course of action given our current options (it's inevitably getting banned if suspected though so I see the argument behind a quickban), but I can't help but feel highly critical of the dismissal of the whole "Gorilla Tactics vs. Zen Mode" argument because it's such an exceptional case of abilities. I'd argue that handling G-Darm would only be appropriate if it targeted the element that makes the mon as broken as it is, that being Goriilla Tactics.
There's a very good reason why such a debate came up in the first place: literally anyone with more than two brain cells agrees that Gorilla Tactics G-Darm is inherently broken (I think Scarf is exponentially better than CBCBDarm because of how useful it is as a scarfer), but most folks agree that Zen Mode requires enough support - though it's generally really, really good once it receives said support - and is inconsistent enough that it isn't unhealthy in and of itself. Gorilla Tactics and this iteration of Zen Mode are both abilities unique only to G-Darm and it's therefore more like the Power Construct ban instead of the Blaziken ban, so it isn't like such a suggestion lacks precedent either. Zen Mode G-Darm loses a metric ton of its immediate damage output pre-transformation and its new defensive typing actively hinders it post-transformation.
I'm not completely opposed to suspecting or quickbanning G-Darm as a whole eventually, because I definitely agree that it is a highly overcentralizing and overpowered force in this current metagame. That said, I implore the OU Council to consider focusing this eventual suspect test or quickban on Gorilla Tactics instead of Zen Mode since it's very clear that Zen Mode G-Darm is nowhere near as problematic as the full-blown G-Darm that has both options available.
There's a very good reason why such a debate came up in the first place: literally anyone with more than two brain cells agrees that Gorilla Tactics G-Darm is inherently broken (I think Scarf is exponentially better than CBCBDarm because of how useful it is as a scarfer), but most folks agree that Zen Mode requires enough support - though it's generally really, really good once it receives said support - and is inconsistent enough that it isn't unhealthy in and of itself. Gorilla Tactics and this iteration of Zen Mode are both abilities unique only to G-Darm and it's therefore more like the Power Construct ban instead of the Blaziken ban, so it isn't like such a suggestion lacks precedent either. Zen Mode G-Darm loses a metric ton of its immediate damage output pre-transformation and its new defensive typing actively hinders it post-transformation.
I'm not completely opposed to suspecting or quickbanning G-Darm as a whole eventually, because I definitely agree that it is a highly overcentralizing and overpowered force in this current metagame. That said, I implore the OU Council to consider focusing this eventual suspect test or quickban on Gorilla Tactics instead of Zen Mode since it's very clear that Zen Mode G-Darm is nowhere near as problematic as the full-blown G-Darm that has both options available.
I hate seeing GT Darm on every single team as much as the next person and I would never be caught using it, but Dynamax just got banned. GT Darm is a huge threat, but it's not a be all end all. With Dynamax gone I don't think it's nearly as good as it was, and with the amount of people running Rotom-W, Rapid spin/Sand Rush Exca, stealth rocks, and all other sorts of counters I don't see why there needs to be a suspect test discussion for it so soon. It has great coverage and hits like a truck but it also has a horrible defensive typing and defenses low enough to get 1 shot at full by a lot of scarfed attackers or at 75% after switching in on rocks once and getting hit by some priority move
Just want to bring up how arena trap is uncompetitive and unhealthy for the meta, duggy is basically able to remove any ground weak mon, which is highly limiting as it can invalidate your countermeasures to a mon. This causes a number of viable checks to threatening mons (think excadrill to check hat/clef, ttar to check dragapult, etc) unreliable as you can lose your counter due to having the fundamental option of switching removed, further limiting a metagame which is already pretty pressed to dealing with a good chunk of mons as it is. It's hard to build a team that isn't at least somewhat screwed by dug + a certain threat, leading to possible huge matchup advantages for bringing dug while needing very little effort to actually playing.
About the gorilla in the room, darm is extremely hard to prepare for and can break through pretty much any check if it clicks the right button. On top of that, it's extremely fast (the scarf set is only really outsped by things used largely because of its existence, while band is still faster than a large number of offensive mons, let alone defensive ones), and extremely easy to use, as it's a low risk, high reward mon that you can just click uturn with to generate a lot of damage and momentum with little thought. While it's a manageable threat, the lack of any real cost to using it as well as how centralising it is makes me think the meta would improve if it was banned. I would object to banning gtactics instead of darm as it is not just gtactics that is the broken element, as was the case with shadow tag and moody, but the mon itself in conjunction with the ability that causes a problem. This is best demonstrated by the huge power comparison made earlier in the thread. Ultimately this decision goes down to if we would rather ban broken things as a whole or try to preserve as much as possible, and it makes far more sense to me to ban the broken thing as a whole. Banning gtactics would be similar to the idea of banning king's shield back in gen 6 to preserve aegi, as stance change was the part that pushed it to broken, which kings shield was necessary for. While not exactly the same (KS technically had another user in smeargle, even though it never used it), I think it's close enough to show a precedent for banning the mon over a part of it to preserve weaker sets.
Edit: Just want to clarify I would prefer a suspect for darm rather than a quickban as while it's not got a realistic chance of remaining, it's a more balanced threat than the stuff that's previously been quickbanned (and dyna, which got a test), although it doesn't really matter hugely either way, we get the same result by the end of the 2 weeks.
Sorry this is a bit of a word vomit
About the gorilla in the room, darm is extremely hard to prepare for and can break through pretty much any check if it clicks the right button. On top of that, it's extremely fast (the scarf set is only really outsped by things used largely because of its existence, while band is still faster than a large number of offensive mons, let alone defensive ones), and extremely easy to use, as it's a low risk, high reward mon that you can just click uturn with to generate a lot of damage and momentum with little thought. While it's a manageable threat, the lack of any real cost to using it as well as how centralising it is makes me think the meta would improve if it was banned. I would object to banning gtactics instead of darm as it is not just gtactics that is the broken element, as was the case with shadow tag and moody, but the mon itself in conjunction with the ability that causes a problem. This is best demonstrated by the huge power comparison made earlier in the thread. Ultimately this decision goes down to if we would rather ban broken things as a whole or try to preserve as much as possible, and it makes far more sense to me to ban the broken thing as a whole. Banning gtactics would be similar to the idea of banning king's shield back in gen 6 to preserve aegi, as stance change was the part that pushed it to broken, which kings shield was necessary for. While not exactly the same (KS technically had another user in smeargle, even though it never used it), I think it's close enough to show a precedent for banning the mon over a part of it to preserve weaker sets.
Edit: Just want to clarify I would prefer a suspect for darm rather than a quickban as while it's not got a realistic chance of remaining, it's a more balanced threat than the stuff that's previously been quickbanned (and dyna, which got a test), although it doesn't really matter hugely either way, we get the same result by the end of the 2 weeks.
Sorry this is a bit of a word vomit
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I wish we had a concrete date for when Pokemon Home releases, cause I feel like certain things it brings could make Darm-G feel less a bit less overbearing, like viable pivots and faster scarfers that resist Ice like Keldeo for instance. It is slated for release in early 2020, if the release was known to be in early January I'd say mayyyybe wait until it releases and see how Darm feels at that point (it would probably still be broken), but as it is right now we don't really know.
That's all I'm gonna say on that since I don't want to discuss hypothetical future metas, and I'm not trying to use it as a point of argumentation at all. Based on the state of the meta and what we know right now, I fully support Darm getting a suspect test. Maybe even a quickban. I feel like I'd vote ban, at least. Although the Scarf set is more common, the Band set is I feel the more "banworthy" since the potential counterplay to it is much more limited for bulky teams. When using more offensive archetypes, Darmanitan can be sorta checked by revenge killing with faster scarfers, maintaining hazard pressure, and strong priority to revenge kill with (strong priority mons like Bisharp feel a lot better after the Dynamax ban). If you have a more balanced team, pivoting between Toxapex, Corviknight, etc. makes it somewhat manageable if you can predict correctly but can still actually function as a wallbreaker due to the quality of its coverage and its sheer power. When you're facing the Band set with an offensive team the counterplay is similar, but if you're facing it with like a bulky or a balance sort of team it's basically "predict correctly or lose a mon". Or in a lot cases, prediction won't even save you, since Icicle Crash is so spammable and U-turn chunks things without turning over momentum. So yeah ban this sick filth.
That's all I'm gonna say on that since I don't want to discuss hypothetical future metas, and I'm not trying to use it as a point of argumentation at all. Based on the state of the meta and what we know right now, I fully support Darm getting a suspect test. Maybe even a quickban. I feel like I'd vote ban, at least. Although the Scarf set is more common, the Band set is I feel the more "banworthy" since the potential counterplay to it is much more limited for bulky teams. When using more offensive archetypes, Darmanitan can be sorta checked by revenge killing with faster scarfers, maintaining hazard pressure, and strong priority to revenge kill with (strong priority mons like Bisharp feel a lot better after the Dynamax ban). If you have a more balanced team, pivoting between Toxapex, Corviknight, etc. makes it somewhat manageable if you can predict correctly but can still actually function as a wallbreaker due to the quality of its coverage and its sheer power. When you're facing the Band set with an offensive team the counterplay is similar, but if you're facing it with like a bulky or a balance sort of team it's basically "predict correctly or lose a mon". Or in a lot cases, prediction won't even save you, since Icicle Crash is so spammable and U-turn chunks things without turning over momentum. So yeah ban this sick filth.
All of your calcs end with something along the lines of "hi band" or "don't forget band".Alright I’m just gonna list all of your counterplay:
Viable purely to counteract Darm (and Dracovish to a lesser extent). It’s niche and CBCBDARM breaks.
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 106-126 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO I forgot to calc Eviolite in but my point still stands. No passive recovery+Check all mon+ppl finding ways to pivot around Strength Sap means this mon can have issues. Say hello to my Choice Band.
It’s a Rotom so it has the catch all blanket check power. Stealth Rock+keeping other mons in check+Darm being fucking Darm means this mon isnt reliable and Band ;-;
Spamming U-turn until its chipped enough. Anyway teams like these often opt for Washtom and Ditto and call that sufficient enough Darm counterplay (tbf idt any core is sufficient enough to be Darm counterplay)
A niche mon that also checks Clefable. Too lazy to calc Band tho.
lol
Is benched to only be a revenge killer.
You somehow try to justify this argument and you don’t even bring up Milotic which is arguably one of the better Darm “checks.” Still a niche Water tho. There’s a serious lack of knowledge in this post especially considering that Darm can just go Band and fuck all of these over, or just click U-turn and pressure tf out of the majority of these mons.
My main gripe with Darm though, is just how spammable this Pokemon is. It synergizes too well with most mons in the tier and overwhelms too many checks far too easily. Darmanitan can just click U-turn for the entirety of the match until it just powers through everything else in the late-game. You could say its main flaw is how frail it is which prevents it from cleanly switching in but there is almost literally nothing stopping a Darm from claiming a kill or getting a huge amount of chip on one of its “checks.” It’s so easy to have Darm’s teammates chip its checks for it and then just win the endgame by spamming Icicle Crash. Most teams that aren’t pure fat are often forced to sack and then revenge kill it by Ditto especially offense. You pretty much rely on fat to be fully healthy so that it can even stomach the blow from a Darm but with all these stallbreakers roaming around (Dracovish, Clefable, Hydreigon) it’s so difficult to keep any consistency. So yeah, Darm should be the first mon to be suspected(with Dracovish being next).
However, band is prone to being revenge killed by, Hydreigon, scarf toms, dragapult, lucha, gyara, ditto, vish, basically any scarfer.
And clicking U-turn for the entirety of the match means hazard damage and it can only switch in 5 times once rocks are up.
And most teams that aren't pure fat run scarfers (I'd say any good team should have a scarfer save stall which can "tank the hit" as you say.)
And a lot of fat stuff can take Darm pretty well actually.
Look at your GCor calc; it's 3hko'd so it switches in, takes another hit, and Strength Saps to 100% and repeats until Darm switches out.
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 104-123 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lol heattom is very much a counter.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 156-183 (52 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still a check.
And as I said, Bandarm is prone to being revenge killed.
So most of your arguments is moot right now.
My opinion regarding potential tiering action against G-Darmanitan is that it should be suspect tested. Everything that needs to be said has already been said. It has all the coverage it needs in one set. CB Darm has virtually zero defensive counterplay (imo the most unhealthy set). Scarf has more defensive counterplay but it's situational, and forces the meta to run obscure scarfers just to outrun it and revenge. Zen Mode sets up on potential checks/pivots and sweeps anyway. It is not a healthy presence in the metagame right now.
With that said, I think quickbanning it sets a very dangerous precedent, because quickbans in OU have generally been reserved for forces in the metagame that render it borderline unplayable (e.g. ZyGod, Mega Salamence, Mega Gengar) or that have received their "due process" several times in the past (e.g. Aegislash in gen 7, Shadow Tag). G-Darm is very, very good, but it is not on the level of past quickbans and does not have the same suffocating effect on the tier. I do not believe that quickbans should be used simply because we can reasonably predict the outcome of a suspect test, because that logic could be applied to dozens of prior and future suspects and it's a slippery policy to enforce. On the other hand I think it's absurd to ask people to play a minimum of ~80+ games on ladder within like, a 30 day period. People have lives, and I'm generally pro-efficiency whenever possible.
My proposal, for whatever it is worth, would be to have G-Darm removed from the OU ladder during the suspect period. People who want to weigh in with anti-ban arguments get a meaningful chance to do so with a real thread and vote. People who want it quickbanned basically get what they want - a pseudo-quickban, since it'll be gone anyway. The thread could focus more on what the meta looks like without G-Darm vs getting derailed by repeating what has already been said here. There is also precedent for doing this in OU for suspects from several years ago, and while it is arguably more prejudicial against G-Darm, suspect tests are inherently prejudicial against the mon being suspected and lately most votes are in the high 80-90%s anyway. I'm sure someone will find a way to make this sound complex but I think it is one of many fair ways of going about the issue.
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Also, I am probably in the minority here but I personally feel that Dracovish/Fishous Rend is the most restricting element in the metagame right now. At least Scarf-Darm has some situational defensive pivots, along with being generally frail, worn down by hazards + FB, and somewhat reliant on correct prediction in crucial moments. I personally feel more secure pivoting around Darm than I do Vish, which telegraphs its one necessary move and still somehow runs through everything that isn't a fat dedicated wall. Dracovish literally mandates a dedicated immunity to water moves on teams, and/or multiple hard-checks (there are no counters) on the same team. It has way better defensive typing, all the bulk it needs to take the trades it always wins, and it is honestly a braindead pokemon. I know this isn't happening but I would personally rather test a metagame without having to be constrained by Vish than a meta without Darm, since at least with the former I can run more Darm checks and better evaluate Darm's brokenness (not to say it isn't already, but it would be a better representation). Perhaps if I could fit more counterplay against Darm on a team, it would not be as potent, but I'll never know.
With that said, I think quickbanning it sets a very dangerous precedent, because quickbans in OU have generally been reserved for forces in the metagame that render it borderline unplayable (e.g. ZyGod, Mega Salamence, Mega Gengar) or that have received their "due process" several times in the past (e.g. Aegislash in gen 7, Shadow Tag). G-Darm is very, very good, but it is not on the level of past quickbans and does not have the same suffocating effect on the tier. I do not believe that quickbans should be used simply because we can reasonably predict the outcome of a suspect test, because that logic could be applied to dozens of prior and future suspects and it's a slippery policy to enforce. On the other hand I think it's absurd to ask people to play a minimum of ~80+ games on ladder within like, a 30 day period. People have lives, and I'm generally pro-efficiency whenever possible.
My proposal, for whatever it is worth, would be to have G-Darm removed from the OU ladder during the suspect period. People who want to weigh in with anti-ban arguments get a meaningful chance to do so with a real thread and vote. People who want it quickbanned basically get what they want - a pseudo-quickban, since it'll be gone anyway. The thread could focus more on what the meta looks like without G-Darm vs getting derailed by repeating what has already been said here. There is also precedent for doing this in OU for suspects from several years ago, and while it is arguably more prejudicial against G-Darm, suspect tests are inherently prejudicial against the mon being suspected and lately most votes are in the high 80-90%s anyway. I'm sure someone will find a way to make this sound complex but I think it is one of many fair ways of going about the issue.
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Also, I am probably in the minority here but I personally feel that Dracovish/Fishous Rend is the most restricting element in the metagame right now. At least Scarf-Darm has some situational defensive pivots, along with being generally frail, worn down by hazards + FB, and somewhat reliant on correct prediction in crucial moments. I personally feel more secure pivoting around Darm than I do Vish, which telegraphs its one necessary move and still somehow runs through everything that isn't a fat dedicated wall. Dracovish literally mandates a dedicated immunity to water moves on teams, and/or multiple hard-checks (there are no counters) on the same team. It has way better defensive typing, all the bulk it needs to take the trades it always wins, and it is honestly a braindead pokemon. I know this isn't happening but I would personally rather test a metagame without having to be constrained by Vish than a meta without Darm, since at least with the former I can run more Darm checks and better evaluate Darm's brokenness (not to say it isn't already, but it would be a better representation). Perhaps if I could fit more counterplay against Darm on a team, it would not be as potent, but I'll never know.
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not sure if we are only supposed to post abt darm. kinda unclear from the op. If thats the case there's not really a deference between this kind of thread and a suspect except it gives a smaller number of common posters more voice. Anyway if this is a thread for posting any matters of intrigue, leave my post up. I think having a separate thread (from ou general) for suggesting suspects is a good idea.
Grimsnarl. boom. i said it.
This thing is insane. It is dominate at dual screens. But the real questionable set is rest talk. Never in my many years have i seen rest talk so efficient and dominate. It is a win condition on such a large amount of the tier i think its kind of unhealthy. Its typing is amazing. Rest talk has one main check in clefable, but clef has a lot of problems and lost its best recovery. Haze pex kinda works but rest can stall out pp with corv and also cant make progress other than tspikes. DLariat is an amazing attack that ignores boosts has no immunities and great coverage. Grimsnarl is defiantly has counters out there but they are all quite specific and flawed. I think this is something that will gain momentum over time because its a very low risk high reward mon.
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Grimmsnarl is good, but does not deserve to be mentioned in the same thread with G-Darm and Dracovish. Rest set is not broken in my opinion, and is worse than dual screens or some utility set. Stuff like disable Dragapult, Clefable, Hatterene, Hydreigon, Toxtricity, and more stuff I'm too dumb to think of off the top of my head can beat it 1v1. I don't think that a Rest-Bulk up mon can every really be broken, especially with a speed tier like Grimmsnarl's, because at the end of the day sleep talk only gives you a 33% chance to actually attack. If you see it start to set up, just switch into any of the above mons or sack something and you're fine, or just switch into something like your pex and haze. The Rest set isn't awful, but it's way too niche in my opinion.
I'm not sure how accurate my sample size for games is since I've been more watching high ladder games rather than playing them, but the direction the meta has been shifting post-DMax ban doesn't really seem to align with a suspect here. Prior to the ban, it felt like it was obvious that GDarm would be up next, but after the ban teams at top ladder have been looking more and more defensive. I'm seeing a lot more Stall, BO, or Balance teams, and even then, most of those balance/BO teams seem to be forgoing GDarm, although I've seen a few successful ones with it in. If the one of main concern GDarm presents is that it's too hard to defensively answer, there is no evidence of it on the ladder.
If something that's such a huge boost to offensive strategies is banned in a defensively oriented meta, I can only forsee the meta getting worse as a result of the ban. If GDarm's existence isn't enough to shift the meta away from playing defense, I can't imagine it could be called a broken offensive threat. We've seen the effects of ultra-hard-hitters before like Lando-I, the meta should NOT look like this if they're truly dominant and too hard to answer. The best teams in formats with these types of threats has always been HO or screens or something, a team archetype that hinges on abusing the clearly broken power level of their threats to muscle past everything else, with defensive strategies being fringe (or are the bare minimum, not the main strategy on the ladder). I just don't see this effect happening with GDarm, which makes me question if a suspect is really necessary.
Even if the story is that GDarm is an extremely broken threat but there's not enough offensive mons to make teams like HO or screens a real team, I think that means GDarm should probably still stay. If the meta is currently equipped to handle it, and even leans defensively despite its existence, then it's fair to keep even if its disproportionately powerful compared to other offensive Pokemon currently available.
If something that's such a huge boost to offensive strategies is banned in a defensively oriented meta, I can only forsee the meta getting worse as a result of the ban. If GDarm's existence isn't enough to shift the meta away from playing defense, I can't imagine it could be called a broken offensive threat. We've seen the effects of ultra-hard-hitters before like Lando-I, the meta should NOT look like this if they're truly dominant and too hard to answer. The best teams in formats with these types of threats has always been HO or screens or something, a team archetype that hinges on abusing the clearly broken power level of their threats to muscle past everything else, with defensive strategies being fringe (or are the bare minimum, not the main strategy on the ladder). I just don't see this effect happening with GDarm, which makes me question if a suspect is really necessary.
Even if the story is that GDarm is an extremely broken threat but there's not enough offensive mons to make teams like HO or screens a real team, I think that means GDarm should probably still stay. If the meta is currently equipped to handle it, and even leans defensively despite its existence, then it's fair to keep even if its disproportionately powerful compared to other offensive Pokemon currently available.
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This is a HEAVILY flawed way to look at it. The reason why Gorilla Tactics itself isn't inherently broken is because, like Huge Power before it, it's merely a power increase, only this time with detrimental effects to go with it. Huge Power is only "broken" in the case that the Pokemon it boosts has an already too high base Atk and tons of other stuff going for it. Mega Mawile was fine in gen 7 because the meta was strong enough to deal with it and the Pokemon itself was frail and lacked good STAB. The ability skyrocketed its Atk to an effective base 257 with max investment, but that alone wasn't enough to break it because it was slow and had no ability to hold additional items. Azumarill wasn't broken with Huge Power either, as its base Atk without it left something to be desired, so said ability brought it up to a solid level. Nothing inherently broken about that. It effectively just gave it a better Atk stat and that was it. Same goes for Gorilla Tactics, except now you can only reasonably carry Choice Scarf/Band, severely limiting your item options, while also being way less powerful than Huge Power by comparison, at only 1.5x vs 2x. By all intents and purposes, it is strictly worse than an ability that has zero reason to be banned.
Shadow Tag is entirely different. Your example is also a straw man. Obviously the ability isn't broken on a Pokemon with a 30 BST and only knows Splash. That's an ABSURD counterargument. Short of an ability that KOs the opponent upon entry, nothing could make such a Pokemon broken. Yet may I remind you that Wynaut, a Pokemon with 93/48/48 bulk and at the time literally only four moves, was banned to Ubers before Eviolite even existed. Shadow Tag is inherently broken because it directly impacts gameplay by eliminating a fundamental core aspect of the battle: switching. This makes it inherently noncompetitive. Even against Gothita, theoretically speaking, if it just so happened that Gothita could hard counter the right Pokemon in OU, there would be literally nothing you could do about it. And if you plan to suggest that the meta should just "adapt" to that, may I remind you we're talking about an LC Pokemon here. And if this sounds farfetched to you, let me remind you that Gothorita was definitively banned in Ubers, and that was before it even got Cosmic Power + Nasty Plot + Stored Power. But obviously without said ability, neither Gothitelle nor Wobuffet, let alone any of their previous stages, are anywhere near Ubers, or even OU. Goth was PU last gen after losing its ability. It went from Ubers to PU solely due to the loss of Shadow Tag. I CANNOT stress enough that Shadow Tag is fundamentally flawed, whereas Gorilla Tactics is just good and fundamentally sound, but too good when paired with every other good thing Galar Darmanitan has.
EDIT: also thanks, DrPumpkinz. My thoughts exactly.
See here’s the problem. Choice Band may be far easier to revenge kill, but are you going to immediately notice this set upon team preview? When your dedicated Darm answer is 2HKOed by Band Darm then you’re practically forced to sack after being surprised by this revelation in the middle of a battle. Most people are safe to assume that the Darm is Scarf in team preview and that’s what makes Band so deadly. It almost always claims a free kill with its elusive nature at risk of being revenge killed.
Corsola is definitely one of the better Darm answers, but are you really banking on the Darmanitan staying in on Corsola after it Crashed on it??? That’s just foolish logic in of itself.
Finally, Rotom-H is certainly not a counter. On your theoretical analysis it could be identified as one but remember that Pokemon is a game that isn’t just math. There’s much more to take into account with Rotom-H such as opposing Corviknight and other mons that it effeciently checks, Stealth Rock (unless you’re wearing the timbs but now you have no recovery at all), and just the overall survivability of Rotom-H. Darm can easily overwhelm Rotom-H with its sheer power even on Scarf and prevent it from effectively playing the role it was given.
Of course I have arguments revolving on Band but you simply brought up calculations and then bolstered them as if they hold total control in a real game. There’s a lack of knowledge here when you forget about the environmental and unknown factors that play a crucial role in any battle. A lot of the “stuff” that you say takes Darm well exist simply to check Darm. Milotic and Vaporeon for instance are far inferior compared to Toxapex, but both of these Pokemon have that pure Water-typing that evades Darm and gives them an easier time to handle Darm.
You do mention hazards like that’s supposed to be a point against me but if you haven’t noticed, most teams with Darm take into account its glaring Stealth Rock weakness and come prepared with solid removal to ensure that Darm gets onto the field safely.
Ban the monkey.
Somehow darm best check is another broken , Eject button pex + Scarf Stone Edge Duggy (go ahead and cry if you miss ) , Suspecting Gdarm is a mistake in the same way suspecting Dina was over straight quickbanning it , for god sake qb the ape and add Duggy as the third passenger into the Ban-Train thanks .
I’ve seen a lot of people say “Gorilla Tactics isn’t OP by itself so G-Darm must be the problem; ban G-Darm.” Let me present a hypothetical scenario in response:
Let’s distribute Shadow Tag to a bunch more Pokemon: Caterpie, Weedle, Ledyba, Snom, Magikarp, Unown, Feebas, and a bunch more super weak mons.
In this scenario, do we ban Shadow Tag? I don’t think so.
Shadow Tag was banned because it’s broken/uncompetitive on all its users, so banning the ability itself was a simple solution (that also preserves other Gothitelle variants). But in our hypothetical world, Shadow Tag by itself obviously isn’t the problem, and banning it also prevents a bunch of obviously weak Pokemon from using the ability. Given that the OU Council prefers to avoid complex bans, including banning specific Pokemon/ability combinations, I imagine we would have ended up banning the Gothitelle line and Wobbuffet.
Gorilla Tactics is in a state similar to Shadow Tag: it might not be OP if given to weaker Pokemon, but it hasn’t been, so it’s broken on all its users. In fact, I'd actually argue that a G-Darm ban would be inconsistent with the choice to ban Shadow Tag rather than Gothitelle and Wobbuffet.
One could argue that Game Freak could introduce a new Pokemon with Gorilla Tactics, and that we wouldn’t want to ban that Pokemon prematurely. But GF could also distribute Shadow Tag to a bunch of weak Pokemon in the next Gen 8 games, and we’ve banned Shadow Tag. Really, “Gorilla Tactics wouldn’t be broken on another Pokemon” is just as much of a hypothetical as Shadow Tag Caterpie.
Anyway, if we ban Gorilla Tactics we can: a) get rid of the problem, b) preserve Zen Mode G-Darm, and c) stay consistent with the Shadow Tag ban. If GF does introduce a non-broken Gorilla Tactics user later, we can then ban G-Darm the Pokemon.
(Also, I wrote this post before I saw DialgaTheTimeLord's post so here's a few points in response.
a) I'll admit I didn't realize Shadow Tag was that brutal on the Gothitelle/Wobbuffet lines in the past, but I think Rarycaris's point that you can't separate the Pokemon from the ability still stands. Sure, some of them have garbage BSTs and are trash without Shadow Tag, but... these are Pokemon that are literally designed around abusing the ability, with moves like Encore/Mirror Coat/Counter/Destiny Bond/Trick/Taunt, etc.
So really, is it the ability that's uncompetitive, or is it the ability plus specific sets of moves that all the Pokemon with the ability happen to have that are broken? If it's the latter, that seems to me like exactly what Rarycaris was getting at.
b) Why isn't Arena Trap banned? Sure, it's weaker than Shadow Tag, but doesn't it still have the same aspect of preventing switching? Seems to me like the fact that Dugtrio doesn't have Encore/Taunt/Trick weakens and changes the ability substantially, so it can't pull off the same uncompetitive shenanigans as Gothitelle. Hence, you can't separate the Pokemon from the ability.
c) Why was Shadow Tag banned instead of the Gothitelle and Wobbuffet lines? Why shouldn't we err on the side of banning the ability alone when there won't be any collateral damage from doing so?
d) Shadow Tag is obviously way more powerful than Gorilla Tactics. Just noting it here so people don't pile on me for thinking they're equivalent in power or anything.)
Let’s distribute Shadow Tag to a bunch more Pokemon: Caterpie, Weedle, Ledyba, Snom, Magikarp, Unown, Feebas, and a bunch more super weak mons.
In this scenario, do we ban Shadow Tag? I don’t think so.
Shadow Tag was banned because it’s broken/uncompetitive on all its users, so banning the ability itself was a simple solution (that also preserves other Gothitelle variants). But in our hypothetical world, Shadow Tag by itself obviously isn’t the problem, and banning it also prevents a bunch of obviously weak Pokemon from using the ability. Given that the OU Council prefers to avoid complex bans, including banning specific Pokemon/ability combinations, I imagine we would have ended up banning the Gothitelle line and Wobbuffet.
Gorilla Tactics is in a state similar to Shadow Tag: it might not be OP if given to weaker Pokemon, but it hasn’t been, so it’s broken on all its users. In fact, I'd actually argue that a G-Darm ban would be inconsistent with the choice to ban Shadow Tag rather than Gothitelle and Wobbuffet.
One could argue that Game Freak could introduce a new Pokemon with Gorilla Tactics, and that we wouldn’t want to ban that Pokemon prematurely. But GF could also distribute Shadow Tag to a bunch of weak Pokemon in the next Gen 8 games, and we’ve banned Shadow Tag. Really, “Gorilla Tactics wouldn’t be broken on another Pokemon” is just as much of a hypothetical as Shadow Tag Caterpie.
Anyway, if we ban Gorilla Tactics we can: a) get rid of the problem, b) preserve Zen Mode G-Darm, and c) stay consistent with the Shadow Tag ban. If GF does introduce a non-broken Gorilla Tactics user later, we can then ban G-Darm the Pokemon.
(Also, I wrote this post before I saw DialgaTheTimeLord's post so here's a few points in response.
a) I'll admit I didn't realize Shadow Tag was that brutal on the Gothitelle/Wobbuffet lines in the past, but I think Rarycaris's point that you can't separate the Pokemon from the ability still stands. Sure, some of them have garbage BSTs and are trash without Shadow Tag, but... these are Pokemon that are literally designed around abusing the ability, with moves like Encore/Mirror Coat/Counter/Destiny Bond/Trick/Taunt, etc.
So really, is it the ability that's uncompetitive, or is it the ability plus specific sets of moves that all the Pokemon with the ability happen to have that are broken? If it's the latter, that seems to me like exactly what Rarycaris was getting at.
b) Why isn't Arena Trap banned? Sure, it's weaker than Shadow Tag, but doesn't it still have the same aspect of preventing switching? Seems to me like the fact that Dugtrio doesn't have Encore/Taunt/Trick weakens and changes the ability substantially, so it can't pull off the same uncompetitive shenanigans as Gothitelle. Hence, you can't separate the Pokemon from the ability.
c) Why was Shadow Tag banned instead of the Gothitelle and Wobbuffet lines? Why shouldn't we err on the side of banning the ability alone when there won't be any collateral damage from doing so?
d) Shadow Tag is obviously way more powerful than Gorilla Tactics. Just noting it here so people don't pile on me for thinking they're equivalent in power or anything.)
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