-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Media One Piece (spoilers!)
- Thread starter some hero
- Start date
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Like this is a prime example to explain what I'm talking about.
You're saying "something as forgettable as 'x'". What I'm trying to get across is that's only in your perspective AS THE READER. In his perspective, he had Brook, and his full backstory already planned out, including leaving Laboon behind. Introducing Laboon was forgettable to you because you didn't get the full picture until he was ready to give it to you.
And again, I agree when you praise him for how it flows naturally and how it's basically seamless, and how well fleshed out his worlds are, and again that's largely because they're kept simple and self-contained. It's very good, and by design. He deserves that praise, and he is definitely a good writer. But calling him genius just because he plans ahead....... Like... COME OOOOOOOOOONNNNN.
The android saga plot was pretty interesting though, that was probably the most well done I've seen time travel been expressed, and it was a tremendous improvement for the character development compared to most other sagas especially the ones in dragon ball where the only character to really develop was tien. Vegetas reaction to trunks death, gokus sacrifice, trunks striking Vegeta, Gohans breakthrough, in the anime there was even a scene where all the humans and piccolo were striking cell with their weak attacks, it was a beautiful moment similar to the normal fishmen trying to budge Noah, completely ineffective but sweet regardless. Dbz isn't plot heavy but with the saiyan saga developing Piccolo, the buu saga redeeming Vegeta, and the android saga just doing everything, it's certainly a better quality of work than even some of the other great works of today.
1. Manga writers aren't genius; they're artists
2. I agree it ain't that hard for him, but I'm it'll be hard for 99.99999% of the world to take OP where it is currently right now
3. OP is one of the few mangas where hypothesis is prevalent in every discussions. It'll take a genius to make every nerdy minds squeeze out their brain juice on what'll happen on things they don't know when to come out.
tehy
Banned deucer.
The problem with all of this is there's no way to prove if he has a long-range plan or is just opportunistic.
The Laboon thing is a perfect example. When we first met him, that story was basically 'complete'. Other than them reuiniting with him for a bit at the end, there wasn't really an incomplete feeling. I was like 'those guys must've run off'. I didn't really wonder about them because it's the grand line and a million bad things could've happened to them, as was implied if I recall right. If we had never seen the crew I'd never feel like that was missing. So did Oda plan Brook, or even part of his story, all along? Or did he just decide to take that loose end and make something of it? If he creates enough loose ends, that almost guarantees him a lot of material.
After considering it I feel like he probably did plan it out, but it's also possible that he didn't. It's the problem with such a late Chekhov's gun, really-it's clearly planned if they meet brook 2 episodes later (Although i hate such clumsy usage of this literary device), but 200 episodes later?
Also, the Nakama Numbers theory has always sounded a little too elaborate for me. Maybe he just didn't pay that much attention to the titles, either not noticing it or figuring no one else would?
The Laboon thing is a perfect example. When we first met him, that story was basically 'complete'. Other than them reuiniting with him for a bit at the end, there wasn't really an incomplete feeling. I was like 'those guys must've run off'. I didn't really wonder about them because it's the grand line and a million bad things could've happened to them, as was implied if I recall right. If we had never seen the crew I'd never feel like that was missing. So did Oda plan Brook, or even part of his story, all along? Or did he just decide to take that loose end and make something of it? If he creates enough loose ends, that almost guarantees him a lot of material.
After considering it I feel like he probably did plan it out, but it's also possible that he didn't. It's the problem with such a late Chekhov's gun, really-it's clearly planned if they meet brook 2 episodes later (Although i hate such clumsy usage of this literary device), but 200 episodes later?
Also, the Nakama Numbers theory has always sounded a little too elaborate for me. Maybe he just didn't pay that much attention to the titles, either not noticing it or figuring no one else would?
Dude, are you kidding me? Oda created the SHs before the start of OP. They may have been different at the start(Franky was a midget, Ussop was supposed to be the first mate) but he knew roughly who they were. Also, Oda has said that he puts extra focus on coming up with the titles for the chapters and enjoys when people get them.
So yes, he is a fucking god. This conversation is stupid. It's a fact at this point. We should be talking about how underrated his art is. Great is an insult imo.
The art is simple, detailed as it is it's remarkably basic. Unimpressive compared to Fma or Death Note or even compared to the other 2 members of the big three. Calling it underrated isn't really fair, it's rated pretty accurately. What's great about the art isn't the art itself but the sentiment that comes across the page in every scene. Luffys eyes are literally dots as are most every non female in the series, nearly every girl looks like Nami or Robin, (Violet and Robin from the Z movie look exactly the same). It'd be a huge mistake to call Oda a wonderful artist, but every sketch every plot point is entirely his own, he refuses to take someone elses idea for his work and for that he's a man of great integrity, and even the arcs I dislike I love.
The thing is, even if Oda had everything thought up ahead of time, the only thing that matters is how the readers interpret it. Oda does a flawless job at making the story seem like a "master plan" to the reader. Whether he came up with Brook 5 years before or out of a spark of genius doesn't matter, we can't jump into his mind, but we do know that the way he pulled it off was spectacular. Sure, Oda could've kept the "big picture" hidden for years, and strung us along the whole time, but to us as readers, it's a shocking development nonetheless. I think we can agree that his ability to "mind manipulate" readers constitutes as genius no? Very few mangakas out there can pull that off, even fewer can do it as well as Oda. As for the art, I'd say FMA/Death Note>Naruto/Bleach>One Piece. Oda has immense trouble dealing with proportions/spacing (although he makes up for this by creating characters like Saul and Apoo so he doesn't have to deal with it as much).
Satisfaction, I agree that the Freeza and Cell arcs were well written, but it's nothing compared to what One Piece, Death Note, and even pre-Pein arc Naruto threw out consistently. Everything else was meh, and lets not get started on the clusterfuck that was the Buu arc. IMO Dragon Ball has a weak plot overall, but it does have excellent writing sprinkled inbetween. However, that isn't saying much, hell even Bleach had its moments.
Some hero I'm not kidding. Think before you post or stop posting.
Satisfaction, I agree that the Freeza and Cell arcs were well written, but it's nothing compared to what One Piece, Death Note, and even pre-Pein arc Naruto threw out consistently. Everything else was meh, and lets not get started on the clusterfuck that was the Buu arc. IMO Dragon Ball has a weak plot overall, but it does have excellent writing sprinkled inbetween. However, that isn't saying much, hell even Bleach had its moments.
Some hero I'm not kidding. Think before you post or stop posting.
I'm looking forward to what he does with Skypiea because right now it's his most useless arc. It introduced Zoros pound cannon moves, but that doesn't imply that that's where he learned them. Everything in Skypiea aside from the gold had no relationship with the rest of the plot. Even the dials that Usopp obtained there are largely unimportant as they made no positive impact on his battles (he lost to luffy and lost the rowboat fight regardless). The gold could have just as easily been given to the crew by Noland and ended things in Jaya, a land that introduced Blackbeard who is shaping into the final antagonist, introduced Doflamingo, and gave Robin a sense of belonging with the crew.
Considering this I think whatever Enel is doing on the moon is going to end up being rather important. Bellamys reintroduction is already ensuring some type of relevance for the sky island
Considering this I think whatever Enel is doing on the moon is going to end up being rather important. Bellamys reintroduction is already ensuring some type of relevance for the sky island
I'd argue that the least important was Davy Back, but then would follow the argument of "is that a story ark?"
I think Enel could comeback, even as a movie villian. He has a god complex and has ever lasting hatred for Luffy who has topped him. Also whatever is on the moon is important as it was implied that humans (in OP) have originated from there then emigrated to the OP planet.
Either way having a broken Logia being featured in any way is good.
Either way having a broken Logia being featured in any way is good.
Gonna have to stop you right there, Bleach art isn't that good at all. Nearly all the characters have the same sad face and if a background isn't completely white it'll be completely black. Here's an example of a great One Piece scene, I don't think anything in Bleach can stand up to this.
I agree that Skypiea will continue to become more relevant but it also introduced Observation Haki (I'd have said Haki in general but people will talk about Shanks in Chapter 1 so fuck it) so it's more than you're giving it credit for.
If Enel comes back he'd need to make the ancient weapon theory true, he just isn't a threat to the Strawhats otherwise. Luffy still has his instant win condition and I have no doubt the other members of the Monster Trio would be able to wipe the floor with Enel. I'd like to see Urouge vs Enel, if he returned.
I tend to agree that Skypiea is the most useless arc in connection to the overall plot (ignoring Davy Back obviously), but Zoro's pound cannon moves (and the gold) are _not_ the only connection. Ignoring the recent Bellamy connection, we still had dials for Usopp's former weapon and Nami's climatact (not sure how you can say they were useless when they helped Nami win her fight and Usopp used his until the end of Shabondy), introduction of Mantra as Observation Haki, the Ponyglyph, Roger's message about tying it all together, Klabautermann for Merry Go, and an important character development for Chopper as his first major solo win.
My apologies, I forgot that the clima tact used dials, that was actually relevant Usopps use of dials however was not. Choppers first win was against Chessmarimo but I can understand forgetting a character like that (how he was able to stand on water though is still undiscovered). I won't apologize for my statement of One Pieces art though, the Ryugu palace looked magnificent "because" it was so different from the rest of the One Piece characters. Bleach isn't my favorite in terms of art but the characters in it are very much distinct, and unlike the One Piece males they actually have eyes. One Piece's art is simple and clean, and it's one of the reasons why it's such a gem.
Chessmarimo was standing on the hull of the ship underwater, not on water itself.
I personally love OP's art-- at least as it manifests in the manga (not the anime).
From the perspective of an artist, more detailed =/= better. Less "Cartoony" / More "realistic" =/= better. It really depends on the story.
Of course anyone would be shocked/stunned by the detail and realism in Obata-sensei's work (Death Note, Hikaru no Go, etc.). His ability to seemlessly capture the "aura" and "realism" of men, and women, young and old, is truly impressive. There's also no question that his work is breathtaking to look at.
That said, his work also lacks many things that can be found in One Piece's artwork.
For one thing, Obata's illustrations are highly lacking in "animation." While he's very good at expressing small, detailed movements like Light's hand-work, or Hikaru slurping Ramen-- his work lacks a sense of motion at greater speed, and I feel like scenes with characters running or making grand motions lose out compare to other series. Take a look at this pic for instance:
http://www.mangaeden.com/en-manga/death-note/88/9/
I just feel like the girl magically popped into her arms.
The second issue with Obata-sensei's work (compare to Oda-sensei's) is the great limitations in Tone. There's only a certain range of emotional tones that can be set with the very unanimated style Obata uses.
Compared to the huge range of intense emotions that can be conveyed with Oda's flexible style, Obata's work can't stray too far off a narrow tone set by the overall story. The cleanness, strict realism, and crispness of the artwork can also take away from the emotional intensity. The over-attention to details in the artwork can detract from the reader's ability to focus on the story.
Meanwhile, I am constantly am impressed by the "speed", "motion," and "emotion" that Oda can express without drawing every single hair on Luffy's head in every panel. EXAGGERATION can be a very effective artistic tool in communication for a certain movement or emotion-- something lacking from the realism/detail obsessed style Obata relies on.
Sometimes, less is more-- and Oda's ability to do so much with fewer lines and a simpler style speaks volumes; and allows him to create an epic tale enhanced by the art instead of constantly being challenged by it.
Really, what matters is that the art MATCH the story while having high quality.
Death Note's intense real-time-action-suspense-drama setting would be awful using Oda's cartoony style.
One Piece would also be terrible trying to tell its zonky-epic-fantasy-adventure with Obata's realism-obsessed style.
The key is using a style that matches and builds the story.
Also OP's art is so much more flexible, varied, and interesting than that of Bleach or Naruto. Oda makes characters like Usopp, Franky, Jinbe, Aokiji, and Kuma all work so well-- leaving room for great variety of shape, facial structure, fashion sense, etc.
Compare this to Naruto where basically everyone has the same face/body structure, and are all build off the same angsty teenager personality base anyway (especially later in the series).
Or compare it to Bleach where 90% of the characters (despite having SO MANY of them) could be used on the cover of a JC Penny catalogue. Fuck, even Kenpachi has the same body build as Ichigo under that huge Hakama of his.
Part of what makes OP a manly man's epic manly story-- compared to BLEACH-- is the relative rarity of pretty-boy characters meant to appease the fan-girl otaku base.
Basically, when your cover art looks like this:
We will start to question which team you're playing for.
Compare this to Naruto where basically everyone has the same face/body structure, and are all build off the same angsty teenager personality base anyway (especially later in the series).
Or compare it to Bleach where 90% of the characters (despite having SO MANY of them) could be used on the cover of a JC Penny catalogue. Fuck, even Kenpachi has the same body build as Ichigo under that huge Hakama of his.
Part of what makes OP a manly man's epic manly story-- compared to BLEACH-- is the relative rarity of pretty-boy characters meant to appease the fan-girl otaku base.
Basically, when your cover art looks like this:
We will start to question which team you're playing for.
Is the One Piece thread gonna get a divorce?
The one piece thread has surprisingly been pretty active. Unfortunately I have nothing to add to the discussion of art as I feel Chou was pretty thorough in his review of its strength.
So much of this. This. This. And more of this damm it. I'd like to say that it's not just a part, but the main reason. Or at least a huge reason. Naruto also has pretty boy Sasuke. Who i can safely say no matter who he fights, his perfect body and beautiful face will always be untouched.
Also, sort of relating to this is the lack of romance. Oda knows his audience. This also cuts back on the cheese by 93%. Boosting OPs manly feel by 34%. Just kidding those numbers are BS.
Romance works for some things, without romance and shipping naruto probably wouldn't be half as popular as it is now, but with all the main characters living together in One piece its just not nearly as appropriate for the members to engage each other romantically. Though we still have Sanji, and Zoro does often come to his mums aide (robin and Franky are considered the mum and dad of the strawhat family)
I only Ship: King of the Pirates Luffy + His Harem (Nami, Robin, Hancock, Shirahoshi, and maybe Margaret)