Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[Firebird101]

You're wrong on so many things. Mega Sab barely has any flaws that prevents him from doing what he does consistently. Having to use recover is it's flaw? What kind of stupid logic is that? And no, it doesn't require any prediction. And even if you're low, it can come in on pretty much any support/defensive pokemon with 0 things to worry about. It's that good. And MegaGross has Power up Punch and Hone Claws for boosting attack btw. Grass Knot comes with sacrificing a moveslot so Metagross loses coverage and now gets walled by other things.

Mega Sableye is usually on stall teams, so often they are being pressured to wall the opposition so switchin the right mons and sometimes making the right predictions is crucial.

Lets say Garchomp is on the opposite side and you are certain it has stealth rock because it was the lead mon. However outrage does 47.3% at it's highest roll even when you are physically defensive so unless Mega Sableye is at 100% it is risking to be 2hko'd to avoid getting the stealth rocks up. I don't think Mega Sableye can consistently prevent to keep sr out of their side if it is threatened so easily. And like Karxrida mentioned that low speed means it has to be constantly at high health to avoid being 2hko'd because that speed is simply atrocious. The speed issue is mostly solved in it's prankster form but it then lacks magic bounce and the bulk to take heavier hits.

Mega Sableye is a amazing mon to be honest, it is probably the most influential mon in OU atm, the most unique one in the current OU and maybe even deserves to be in the S tier but it isn't nearly enough of a low risk/high reward pokemon for me to be ban-worthy. Mega Sableye still relies a lot on prediction to do it's job and against more skilled players it gets increasingly more difficult for me to use it successfully. Maybe it just shows I'm not a skilled player but I think that can also mean if I can't beat better players with Mega Sableye, it can't be ban-worthy ;)

 

[NZ744]

Mega Sableye is usually on stall teams, so often they are being pressured to wall the opposition so switchin the right mons and sometimes making the right predictions is crucial.

Switching to wall the opposition is how stall is supposed to play lol. And making the right prediction is true for everything. How is that relevant to Mega Sableye? Even then Stall needs to make much less risky predictions than offense. If you are pushed to point where you need to make risky predictions, it means you got severely outplayed by your opponent and is not relevant to Mega Sab.

Lets say Garchomp is on the opposite side and you are certain it has stealth rock because it was the lead mon. However outrage does 47.3% at it's highest roll even when you are physically defensive so unless Mega Sableye is at 100% it is risking to be 2hko'd to avoid getting the stealth rocks up.

Consider both sides bro. 47.3% is the absolute highest and idk why you're considering highest rolls rather than average. And even then, you don't 2HKO. And Chomp itself is the SR user so SR is not present. So you see, even with max roll, chomp can't 2HKO Mega Sab and will get burnt in the process. Who's benefitted? Mega Sableye of course.

I don't think Mega Sableye can consistently prevent to keep sr out of their side if it is threatened so easily. And like Karxrida mentioned that low speed means it has to be constantly at high health to avoid being 2hko'd because that speed is simply atrocious. The speed issue is mostly solved in it's prankster form but it then lacks magic bounce and the bulk to take heavier hits.

How the hell is it threatened easily?!? I've just shown how it walls your SR user and burns it. So yes, it CAN prevent getting rocks up consistently because it just burned the chomp. And why it wouldn't it be at 100%? Yes you can inflict some damage and then hit it on the switch but you are taking 2 things for granted. 1) The other member of your team you used to damage Mega Sab is fine whereas it's more than likely to be crippled 2) You outpredicted your opponent. I hope you can see how easily Mega Sab establishes hazard control. And this is just ONE of the several merits Mega Sab brings. Thanks for strengthening my point.

Mega Sableye is a amazing mon to be honest, it is probably the most influential mon in OU atm, the most unique one in the current OU and maybe even deserves to be in the S tier but it isn't nearly enough of a low risk/high reward pokemon for me to be ban-worthy.

Yes it is ban worthy and I've shown you why in my previous posts :) You can't just claim something without providing proper logic. I've shown mine and feel free to prove them wrong.

Mega Sableye still relies a lot on prediction to do it's job and against more skilled players it gets increasingly more difficult for me to use it successfully. Maybe it just shows I'm not a skilled player but I think that can also mean if I can't beat better players with Mega Sableye, it can't be ban-worthy ;)

Prediction is a part of pokemon games and doesn't concern Mega Sableye. It doesn't require any extra prediction to use than any other pokemon. And yes, you not being able to beat skilled players using Mega Sableye then it just shows your lack of skill rather than proving any point on Sable. Your final statement is so stupid and wrong that I can write an easy contradicting it with proof. Sorry for being rude but it's the truth :)

 

[SketchUp]

Consider both sides bro. 47.3% is the absolute highest and idk why you're considering highest rolls rather than average. And even then, you don't 2HKO. And Chomp itself is the SR user so SR is not present. So you see, even with max roll, chomp can't 2HKO Mega Sab and will get burnt in the process. Who's benefitted? Mega Sableye of course.

This situation only happens in the beginning of the game, if the opponent leads with Garchomp and you lead with Sableye. However, your pokemon will never be at full health in the middle of the game so once your Sableye is around 75% of his health, it is threatened by 2 Earthquakes so it doesn't want to switch in. This situation (Garchomp goes for a safe earthquake or tries to predict and go for rocks) repeats untill the Garchomp is dead.

 

[Firebird101]

I think Mega Sableye is even more vulnerable to be outplayed because of it's speed. Against heavy hitters almost every decision you need to decide wether to recover or not. What I also wanna point out in my Garchomp example is that even if you burned Garchomp Mega Sableye is at low enough health for a burned Outrage to ko it. Sure switching out is always a possibility but against offensive teams it is very unlikely Mega Sableye will be even given the free time to recover so it's not like you can use it unless you predict another status or sr attempt but it may also give the opponent a free sub. That is what I meant by that you constantly have to keep it healthy cause it will be hard-pressured to gain it's health back against offense. Granted Mega Sableye is definitely most useful against stall and defensive oriented balanced teams and that is where it really shines but it struggles a lot more against offensive teams because they can punish mons a lot harder for giving them a free switch by recovering or using a status move. Mega Sableye main strength come from the mind-games it introduces and I guess because they are so unique to itself it is no wonder why it has become such a force but unlike say Aegislash (please bear with me here) it's decisions aren't nearly as arbitrary as making the wrong move has just as dire consequences as with any other mon if not even more because Mega Sableye does not have a easy time to recover unless it has successfully burned a physical attacker while at high enough health. In a sense it's more of a high risk/high reward against any archetype that is not stall.

Basically because of it's low speed, it can have a really hard time to keep itself constantly healthy against offensive teams and due to it's low hp it isn't nearly has sturdy as other common stall mons.

Now of course, Mega Sableye can prevent most of these issues by simply not mega evolving and keep it's prankster ability, it mitigates it's speed issue and lets it burn opponents much more reliably without having to risk getting killed. The low bulk is definitely noticeable though and that is why I think Mega Sab is a mon that requires some real skill at using. Judging by my personal experience with the previous suspect test mons while all were different they were all much easier and brainlessly easy to use and immediately gave me the advantage. I don't get that from Mega Sableye. Maybe you are correct and I have been using him wrong but after using it and play against it Mega Sableye just doesn't strike me as something that needs to be banned or suspect tested to be honest, at least not at the moment but things may change so best to take my words with a grain of salt ;)

 

[Verminator]

The reason I don't feel like mega sab is a huge deal is because while its obviously pretty bulky it's not ultra bulky before setting up. While 125 base def and 115 sp. def is obviously awesome base 50 HP is definitely not so, it doesn't really give it as many free switchins as you might think against the heavy hitters in this meta. This is even more true for its base form. The first turn of Prankster lets it obtain the appropriate defensive boost, true, but if it's already mega evolved then getting those boosts becomes more difficult. Lack of lefties also hurts it a lot, if it gets nailed with poison or burn from Sludge Bomb, Lava Plume or Scald then its bulk becomes harshly compromised and you're forced to use Recover more and more often to stay out of KO range. Plus, even with Wisp and CM there's plenty of stuff on both offense and defense that just comes in and forces it out. On offense Zard X, Mega Gard and Mega Lop (so long as you don't bring it on a wisp) smash it, on defense Clefable and Sylveon defeat it 1v1, in fact it just really can't handle any fairy type in general. Don't get me wrong, this is a mon that's a big threat in the meta and has a hell of a lot going for it both in stall roles and also in defeating stall and it deserves its A+ rank and possibly warrants an S, but it's far from unmanagable imo.

 

[Celticpride]

Is someone really trying to argue Mega Sableye is broken? I mean, I guess it might be but it's not at the top of list imo. Nothing actually seemed broken to me on the suspect ladder, which is strange because that usually reveals the next broken thing (see Mega Mawile on the Aegislash ladder).

Back on topic, while Mega Sableye can be hard to switch into, but it really hasn't nullified any of the big wallbreakers outside of the Fighting / Psychic ones. Granted, it did invalidate basically any Taunt-based stallbreaker. However, several have adapted to Mega Sableye, either by carrying boosting moves or turning to sub-based stallbreaking (or a combination of both!). There's a long list of wallbreakers that can still function very successfully in an environment ruled by Mega Sableye stall (and I use ruled very loosely). You do have to keep in mind that of course some of these can't switch into Sableye, but Mega Gard can't switch into Ferrothorn and Heracross can't switch-in on Gliscor either. Just because it can't get in on Sableye doesn't automatically mean it can't wallbreak either. Mega Sableye really only invalidates wallbreakers that can't 2HKO it for whatever reason. Onto a short long list:

• Mega Gardevoir - please, 6-0's Sableye stall
• Mega Heracross - either OHKOs with +2 Pin Missile, or set-ups a Sub and 2HKOs with +0 Pin Missile
• Char-X - uses it as set-up bait or flat 2HKOs it
• Landorus-I - Earth Power 2HKOs, and it can boost alongside it with Calm Mind
• Clefable - can stallbreak with CM + Moonblast, Unaware prevents boosting alongside it
• Char-Y - Fire Blast stands a shot at OHKOing, still 2HKOs +1 Mega Eye
• Thundurus-I - the mixed set 2HKOs, Nasty Plot set beats it easily
• Sylveon - more prediction-based, but still hits like a truck
• Mega Diancie - wins easily
• Mega Absol - uses it as set-up bait
• Mega Altaria - mono-attacking sets kill it, DD sets and Special sets do as well
• CB Azumarill - 2HKOs when it's burned
• Mega Pinsir - Return 2HKOs, +2 Return OHKOs
• Mega Houndoom - sets up on it
• Victini - very solid check to it, and Sableye doesn't stop it from nuking either
• Diggersby - Earthquake 2HKOs with a Life Orb, OHKOs at +2
• Crawdaunt - Same as Diggs, but with Crabhammer
• Mega Gyarados - SubDD uses it as set-up bait

I mean, I guess if you look at it as some unbreakable force and that your wallbreaker always has to switch-in on Sableye, then yes it's bannable. But every wallbreaker has things on stall it can't switch-in on, and there's still a decent number that can switch-in on it to boot. Also, that list looks filled with Megas, but there's eight decent non-Mega wallbreakers on there that have little to no trouble with beating Sableye. There's also a huge number of Megas that aren't exactly running bad or sub-optimal sets that can beat it either. The people that want it banned because "it's impossible to break at +1 omg" just sound like lazy builders tbh. Pick two things from that list above, they're all OU viable. Play them well and they can beat not only Mega Sableye, but can also break down Skarmory, Chansey and other common walls.

Edit: I didn't mean to imply that all those Pokemon cause issues for stall SketchUp, I've just gotten so sick of seeing people say that you can't beat Mega Sableye stall that I had to rant a little and show that it is beatable and possible to break through.

 

[AM]

Not going to really talk about if something is borked or not cause it's a metagame discussion not a suspect one but might as well add on to this point I saw. Mega Sableye only being used and only viable on stall is a false assumption. It is perfectly capable of being used on Balanced Builds as well for anti-hazard support. Just thought I would bring this up.

 

[SketchUp]

Many stall pokemon are easily counterable and many pokemon can set up on certain stall pokemon and that is just how stall works because it is more passive than offense or balance. Stall has such defensive power that it doesn't care if a Clefable or Victini gets a free switch into Sableye, because it can just switch into Jirachi or Quagsire to take the hit. Mega Sableye is not good (I won't call it broken) because it has no counters, but because it provides very much support in only 1 teamslot, including hazards control, a gallade counter and a will o wisp user. The pokemon that can take on Mega Sableye are often not the biggest problems for stall except for Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gyarados because stall is build to take on these kind of threats anyways

 

[Celticpride]

Alright, now that I got my rant out, I'm gonna talk about something else. I've found double Genie teams to be very effective in ORAS so far, especially on the suspect ladder. Thundurus-I sits at a very attractive speed tier and it's very dangerous even without TWave. Landorus-I, on the other hand, didn't benefit directly as much but it's checks seem very scarce at the moment. People seem down on Gliscor and Cress really isn't too common. I've been using either NP + 3 attacks Thundy + Knock Off Landorus, or CM Landorus + mixed Thundurus and both have worked to great effect. Get your Mamoswines ready, Genie spam 2.0 might be coming.

 

[AM]

Double Genie is a hilariously effective core. It's one of the reasons that Weavile is so good on offense cause it allows itself to check both of these by virtue of speed and power. I think what makes the core dangerous is the versatility involved such as Celticprides set above to cater to both sides of the offensive spectrum and choosing which Lando you need for the team. I think Gliscor and Cresselia are going to see a rise in usage honestly. Gliscor is sort of underrated in the fact that it still has the ability to be a very effective mon while the resurgence of Lando-I makes Cresselia that much more important for Defensive builds.

 

[Jeronado]

Was looking through usage stats and just noticed Mega Pinsir's surprisingly low in usage. I mean this thing used to be pretty common and it's still pretty good in ORAS, the only Megas that I can think of that sorta hurt its performance are Mega Metagross and Mega Slowbro. Anyone know why its dropped in usage? More megas to compete with?

1825 stats
| 60 | Pinsir | 2.79278% |

1695 stats
| 56 | Pinsir | 2.58645% |

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Was looking through usage stats and just noticed Mega Pinsir's surprisingly low in usage. I mean this thing used to be pretty common and it's still pretty good in ORAS, the only Megas that I can think of that sorta hurt its performance are Mega Metagross and Mega Slowbro. Anyone know why its dropped in usage? More megas to compete with?

1825 stats
| 60 | Pinsir | 2.79278% |

1695 stats
| 56 | Pinsir | 2.58645% |

That is part of the problem, more of the problem is skarm started running shed shell, so magnezone couldn't trap it, hence pinsir loses so less people use it.
Biggest problem imo is scarf landorous, thunderus, and rotom-w all have quite high usage lowering pinsir's effectiveness.

 

[Firebird101]

There is also Mega Diancie but yeah now Mega Pinsir has even more mega's to compete against for a mega slot and to be honest, the competition for the mega slot is the main reason why many of the mega drastically went down in usage. And while Mega Pinsir has the type advantages against other new mega's such as Lopunny, Gallade and Sceptile it is usually forced to just revenge kill them as they can still hit it for neutral damage on the switch or hide behind a sub. Not to mention that sr weakness plagues it as always.

It's power is definitely still astounding but it is becoming more and more of a high risk/high reward mon like Diggersby. Can't imagine it being allowed long in UU though.

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 181-214 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thanks calculator for reminding me just how stupidly powerful that monster is xD

 

[Jukain]

Celticpride your list is neither complete nor entirely correct and contains a variety of niche/specialized Pokemon. For instance, Mega Gardevoir does not 6-0 Sableye stall unless you're talking about a bad team that doesn't include Jirachi, and even if you include Pursuit support, it's not like stall can't check Mega Gardevoir via wearing it down with hazard pressure, Chansey, and Brave Bird Skarmory; Mega Gardevoir also can't switch into Mega Sableye because it's weak to Shadow Ball and dislikes taking Knock Off. Mega Heracross is practically unviable in the metagame as it stands because there is practically no reason to use it over other top Fighting-types, especially Mega Lopunny, and practically no reason to use it for your Mega slot when there are so many choices that fare better against offense; Sableye actually kind of checks it with Prankster Will-O-Wisp and regardless stall is well-prepared for Mega Heracross with Unaware Clefable/Gliscor being crucial team members. Mega Charizard X being a check actually completely depends on the variant because while it does deal with CM versions effectively, utility versions with Foul Play just kill it. Landorus-I can't even break Mega Sableye if it has set up a Calm Mind already and fears a Knock Off; it typically can't even break SDef Mega Sableye in a 1v1 scenario. Thundurus-I doesn't even beat CM Mega Sableye 1v1 unless it has Nasty Plot which does win 1v1, but it has no ability to beat Mega Sableye if it has already set up a Calm Mind; it would have to sac itself to get off the significant damage on Mega Sableye, and furthermore Mega Sableye can just chip off 50% with +1 SBall or burn it and then switch out.

Mega Absol is a niche Pokemon as-is and loses to utility Foul Play versions of Mega Sableye pretty handily as Foul Play 2HKOes on the switch and it loses 1v1 if it tries to set up an SD. Mega Pinsir just gets burned and then you can switch out your Mega Pinsir answer, while Mega Pinsir is rendered effectively useless. I don't know how Victini is a 'check to it' when the best it can do is revenge kill with CB V-create and though it obviously gets off the damage needed it still loses 1v1, missing the KO with V-create and dying to any attack after the drops if it has taken SR damage or just outright being KOed by Foul Play; other variants of Victini can't even get off enough damage to weaken it into a sufficient range to where it is no longer much of a threat. Against fully physically defensive variants, Diggersby falters because LO EQ doesn't even 2HKO with the first hit + a burnt hit, so if it's 252/252+ Mega Sableye can just burn it, recover up if Diggersby decided to attack, and switch out. Crawdaunt lost almost all of its viability in the transition to ORAS with so many Pokemon that can threaten it/beat it being everywhere in the metagame, Mega Altaria not being the least of those, and standard Jolly LO doesn't even 2HKO max Def variants with Crabhammer + burnt Crabhammer while Adamant LO still doesn't even have a 50% shot to do so and is outright inferior to Jolly on the whole.

Obviously a lot of this depends on the variant including EVs and whether it's CM or a utility Knock Off/Foul Play variant, but all of these versions of Mega Sableye are very common and thus it is difficult to regard a lot of those Pokemon as answers to it. The Pokemon that can actually switch into Mega Sableye and beat it without being enormously crippled that are on your list are CM/Unaware Clefable (yes, CM Mega Sableye beats standard SR versions of Clefable), Mega Charizard Y, Sylveon (which is kind of garbage), Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir (a stretch because it can't switch in), CB Azumarill (this is a bit of a stretch because it's not really a switch-in), and Mega Houndoom. In your list, you have neglected to include SD Gliscor, Mega Lopunny (also not a switch-in at all), and TG RD Manaphy. For a Pokemon that does so well against the majority of the metagame, especially when half this list is composed of Megas and some of the best answers aren't even real switch-ins, this is a limited set of answers.

A Mega Sableye suspect certainly isn't 'nowhere near the top of the list', especially seeing as it is perhaps the #1 Pokemon being complained about by experienced players of ORAS OU. It's easy to see why because Mega Sableye checks/counters at least over half of the tier with any given set and around 3/4 of the tier if you account for all of its possible variants WHILE being a devastating bulky sweeper with its CM set that has a limited list of counters and even checks AND making common defensive Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Chansey, Celebi, Jirachi, Slowbro, etc into liabilities AND being the most effective form of hazard control the tier has ever seen. Whether Mega Sableye is actually banworthy or not is definitely debatable, but you can't argue that there are no points against it and that it isn't one of the top choices for a suspect in the near future.

 

[HardlySaucy]

Ok, after playing a fair bit of ORAS OU, I have found the insane power, speed and bulk of mega Gross is too much for OU. The most reliable stop I know is Greninja, and with its ban being very likely (which is fine, we don't keep toxic elements to prevent toxic elements) I feel like MegaGross is unfair. 150 Base Defense is scary with 110 Speed. It can punch holes in just about anything in OU, depending on its coverage moves. It's looking to be Greninja 2.0, but with much, much more bulk. What reliable checks are there?

 

[boltsandbombers]

Ok, after playing a fair bit of ORAS OU, I have found the insane power, speed and bulk of mega Gross is too much for OU. The most reliable stop I know is Greninja, and with its ban being very likely (which is fine, we don't keep toxic elements to prevent toxic elements) I feel like MegaGross is unfair. 150 Base Defense is scary with 110 Speed. It can punch holes in just about anything in OU, depending on its coverage moves. It's looking to be Greninja 2.0, but with much, much more bulk. What reliable checks are there?

Slowbro / Mega Slowbro bar grass knot variants, Alomomola, ferrothorn for EQ variants, Gyarados / Mega Gyarados, both have to fear thunder punch while mega gets hit by hammer arm, Mega scizor, Counter skarmory, Defensive Starmie, Suicune bar Grass Knot, etc. Fairly hard to check on offensive teams but defensive pokemon that can handle it are pretty common and viable.

 

[HardlySaucy]

Slowbro / Mega Slowbro bar grass knot variants, Alomomola, ferrothorn for EQ variants, Gyarados / Mega Gyarados, both have to fear thunder punch while mega gets hit by hammer arm, Mega scizor, Counter skarmory, Defensive Starmie, Suicune bar Grass Knot, etc. Fairly hard to check on offensive teams but defensive pokemon that can handle it are pretty common and viable.

Yeah but each of those checks is in constant fear of one of its coverage moves, and that speed tier is insane considering its bulk. Mega Sableye is a potential stop but people are talking about that being banned as well.

 

[TURBODERP]

Yeah but each of those checks is in constant fear of one of its coverage moves, and that speed tier is insane considering its bulk. Mega Sableye is a potential stop but people are talking about that being banned as well.

Reflect Type Starmie with Scald actually doesn't care much, unless Meta runs EQ (and it's better to run Hammer Arm).

 

[HardlySaucy]

Reflect Type Starmie with Scald actually doesn't care much, unless Meta runs EQ (and it's better to run Hammer Arm).

True, but not every team runs that. When ORAS OU first started, I didn't realise its unbelievable power and was up 6-1 and switched into my Rotom W thinking I could live any hit, and the opposing Metagross 2HKOed me with Zen Headbutt. It proceeded to sweep my entire team without any boosts, OHKOing everything and taking my ScarfChomp's EQ incredibly easily. Super Effective hits hardly phase it physically, and of the few unboosted potential OHKOes like MegaZard Y's Fire Blast and Landorus-I's Earth Power (IIRC) can't hit because they're outsped.

 

[Kingler]

Mega Metagross has solved a bunch of Metagross's problems: low Speed (now it has the same as Latios which isn't pretty bad), just not enough power to muscle through physical walls (Tough Claws makes its attacks significantly stronger, boosting Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot, Thunder Punch and Ice Punch), and not being able to deal with special attacks very well (its Special Defense went from 90 to 110 which isn't insignificant at all). While it's not overly hard for defensive teams to deal with it, offensive teams on the other hand struggle with it very much. 252/252+ Lando-T, a very popular pivot and check to physical attackers, is 2HKOed by Meteor Mash on the turn Metagross Mega Evolves because of Clear Body and can't OHKO in return with Earthquake. Physically defensive Rotom-W has a ~50ish% chance to be 2HKOed from full health by a Tough Claws-boosted Zen Headbutt. Slowbro is 2HKOed by Grass Knot, but likely won't be switching into Grass Knot and can just switch around. The point I'm trying to make is that one of these was pretty much all you needed to deal with Metagross (which wasn't good in B/W anyway) but if these are your only switch-ins, having them on your team might not cut it. It's just this sheer power that makes Mega Metagross, imo, the most threatening Mega after Mega Sableye (which is pretty ridiculously good as a bulky sweeper/utility mon on stall). A 110 base Speed along with base 150 Attack and 110 Special Attack is nothing to laugh at and pretty difficult to deal with.

I feel it will be interesting to see the checks to Mega Metagross and how the meta adapts to it in general. It certainly seems like one of the most threatening Pokemon currently and I don't see that changing very soon.

edit: Also now the need to run Ice Punch has reduced and you can smash ferro with Hammer Arm and do decent damage to skarm

 

[AM]

People are vastly overrating Grass Knot on M-Gross in the fact that it somehow puts a complete stop to bulky Water Types when quite frankly this isn't true. Most of these targets are either shy of 2HKO or will never 2HKO such as the case with Suicune for example. Also the idea that you have to make such huge compromises in your team to handle M-Gross is false as well. The teams that usually suffer from M-Gross' sheer power is offensive ones who lack the benefits of a defensive backbone to take hits but this isn't exactly a new thing in regards to offense in general however M-Gross is very bulky so I'll admit it can be a bit tough to take down. Balanced builds that are built to accommodate with M-Gross in mind, which you should, isn't an issue until you've lost the check to it which can be sad about any top tier threat for the most part. Stall or Defensive builds aren't exactly hindered by M-Gross in the sense because of the massive bulk the team provides and allows itself to take advantage of M-Gross' lack of recovery.

M-Gross is a serious threat to prepare for but the idea that you have to use completely gimmicky options and compromise your team entirely is false. Stop using terrible checks to it such as Rotom-W as your only answers.

 

[Baharoth]

People are vastly overrating Grass Knot on M-Gross in the fact that it somehow puts a complete stop to bulky Water Types when quite frankly this isn't true. Most of these targets are either shy of 2HKO or will never 2HKO such as the case with Suicune for example. Also the idea that you have to make such huge compromises in your team to handle M-Gross is false as well. The teams that usually suffer from M-Gross' sheer power is offensive ones who lack the benefits of a defensive backbone to take hits but this isn't exactly a new thing in regards to offense in general however M-Gross is very bulky so I'll admit it can be a bit tough to take down. Balanced builds that are built to accommodate with M-Gross in mind, which you should, isn't an issue until you've lost the check to it which can be sad about any top tier threat for the most part. Stall or Defensive builds aren't exactly hindered by M-Gross in the sense because of the massive bulk the team provides and allows itself to take advantage of M-Gross' lack of recovery.

M-Gross is a serious threat to prepare for but the idea that you have to use completely gimmicky options and compromise your team entirely is false. Stop using terrible checks to it such as Rotom-W as your only answers.

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 452-532 (114.7 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 182-216 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 226-266 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I think your underestimating how usefull Grass Knot is. Imo its the best coverage move for Gross. The only bulky water that cant be 2hkoed is Alomomola with some spd investment.

And from my experience Gross is totaly capable of breaking down any kind of defensive teams/cores with some support but even on its own. Good counters to it are pretty rare and some of them arent exactly good in the meta like Mandibuzz.

 

[AM]

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 452-532 (114.7 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 182-216 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 226-266 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I think your underestimating how usefull Grass Knot is. Imo its the best coverage move for Gross. The only bulky water that cant be 2hkoed ist Alomomola with some spd investment.

And from my experience Gross is totaly capable of breaking down any kind of defensive teams/cores with some support but even on its own. Good counters to it a pretty rare and some of them arent exactly good in the meta like Mandibuzz.

I never said it wasn't useful I said it was overrated I simply stated it doesn't put a complete stop to them which it doesn't. You're relying on switch ins for most of those and with Starmie you forgot to account Reflect Type since that HP investment is RT Starmie, the small special defense investment on Slowbro, and its ability to run an effective Foul play set, the special defense on alomomola, and the fact you risk a burn on most of these cause they're all Scald users. It needs support to break very strong defensive backbones. Sure it can break some defensive cores but that's an exaggeration if you think it can manage this all on its own all the time. It still needs some support to function against various Balanced and Defensive builds and unless your team was dangerously M-Metagross weak to begin with it's not just cleaning house or demolishing everything to the level that people describe it.

 

[Baharoth]

Slowbro will need quite a bit of spd investment to become a good switch in and to even use foulplay. Reflecttype Starmie simply gets 2hkoed by a combination of GK and Hammer Arm. Yeah alomo can stop it with spdef investment but thats it. And bulky waters aside we also have

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 312-368 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It might not be a "complete stop" but its pretty damn close. Sure Meta can be stopped, he isnt invincible but its quite a task especially if he is backed up by healingwish/wish support.

 

[AM]

Slowbro will need quite a bit of spd investment to become a good switch in and to even use foulplay. Reflecttype Starmie simply gets 2hkoed by a combination of GK and Hammer Arm. Yeah alomo can stop it with spdef investment but thats it. And bulky waters aside we also have

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 312-368 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It might not be a "complete stop" but its pretty damn close. Sure Meta can be stopped, he isnt invincible but its quite a task especially if he is backed up by healingwish/wish support.

I was addressing the people that make it seem like its impossible to take down which I see a lot of. Implying that M-Gross isn't hard to take down or that it doesn't take a certain amount of planning isn't what I was trying to convey. The Healing Wish/Wish support is pretty specific towards an argument that it's strong when anything strong can be a receiver of this so not exactly sure what the point of this was.