I'm not even going to comment on the stupidity of that statement
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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
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A year ago Luxray was considered trashy and anyone that used it was laughed at and considered a bad team builder. Electivire was seen as the only viable physical attacker on Electric. Nowadays, the roles have been reversed. Sure, Thundurus is used as a physical attacker too, but Band Luxray is common enough and no one is laughed at for using it. Instead, anyone who uses Electivire nowadays is ridiculed just as much as Luxray used to be.
So to sum up my point, WishingJirachi7's statement is far from stupid. The metagame will change over time, just as it has done in the past. However, it's apparent that your utter lack of courtesy will never change. If you have nothing intelligent to say and just want to insult someone, don't even bother posting.
I'd just like to add on to that because lux vs electivire is a single fairly small example that looks like it could have more to do with mega sab being stupid than this actually happening. This isn't unique, it doesnt only happen to monotype. Now excuse me if I use my native tier for examples bc idk mono ones but Electrode shot from almost being unranked to A- in a few months because people didn't realize how useful its extra speed was and Jumpluff went from C- to on like 50% of good teams and having a direct influence on something else getting banned. The best Pokemon in PU used to be like C because nobody bothered to use it and assumed it was outclassed. This is why there's a creative/underrated sets thread for like every tier (aside from making colbur tini a meme). New shit happens all the time in every tier, and even in ubers where nothing really changes shit still gets invented. /rant over
i swear this "never changes" bullshit always gets on my nerves
i swear this "never changes" bullshit always gets on my nerves
I apologize if you guys misinterpreted my statement, I wasn't talking about the meta changing obviously it will... I wasn't talking about generic vs ungeneric meaning anything special. I was making a general statement on what is generic is good, and how a team like a new player uses is bad, nothing else. I figured this was obvious and had no idea why wishingjirachi7 felt the need to flame me.
All I want is to help the meta and move it forward however I can.
~CC
Ey yo i heard we talking about blaziken, it had a good discussion, why did we just stop to talk about the current meta and generic and nongeneric teams, lets keep up the talk about blaziken.
Also can we get some replays that actually how blaziken and it being abused, because isnt that what (apparently what someone told me) we are primarily looking for, how it can actually help a team in its full potential! Im gonna try and get some replays, somebody like to offer to battle me and test some battles that would be great ^_^, im very lonely ;-;.
Also can we get some replays that actually how blaziken and it being abused, because isnt that what (apparently what someone told me) we are primarily looking for, how it can actually help a team in its full potential! Im gonna try and get some replays, somebody like to offer to battle me and test some battles that would be great ^_^, im very lonely ;-;.
Myself and Arken Had a series of I think 5 or 6 battles in which I was wielding a blaziken on my fighting team. They were all pretty solid replays so you guys can look forward to seeing those in the near future.
Just a little insight as well. Blaziken isn't nearly as overpowered as you might think. In some of the replays I barely even used it if I used it at all. The only thing I'd say it creates is a somewhat shit matchup for steel because there are a few 50/50s that you have to go through that you otherwise wouldn't have to but the doub, skarm, and magnezone core still can put in work.
Blaze is also piss slow even with a speed boost up as well, js.
Just a little insight as well. Blaziken isn't nearly as overpowered as you might think. In some of the replays I barely even used it if I used it at all. The only thing I'd say it creates is a somewhat shit matchup for steel because there are a few 50/50s that you have to go through that you otherwise wouldn't have to but the doub, skarm, and magnezone core still can put in work.
Blaze is also piss slow even with a speed boost up as well, js.
^ Yeah, we played some. They're match-ups that have already been done, but I guess it serves to create a more accurate picture.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Normal - win
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Steel - win
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Grass - win
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Bug - loss
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Psychic - loss
We would have done more, but I kind of felt burned out towards the end. I'm only showing 5 match-ups here, but with their outcomes, we saw that Blaziken didn't affect the overall outcome of any given match-up here too much. Fighting w/ Blaziken wins vs. Normal, Steel, and Grass in the replays I've shown, but these victories aren't even solely attributed to Blaziken. As iWanka has pointed out, Blaziken wasn't even sent out in 2 of those 3 matches. Conversely Fighting w/ Blaziken lost against Bug and Psychic, which are arguably unfavorable match-ups for Fighting, leading us to believe Blaziken's not as meta-breaking as we believe on Fighting.
Aside from Bug and Psychic, Fighting also has a difficult match-up with Dragon, Flying, Ghost, and Fairy, all of which except Ghost are unaffected with Blaziken's presence. So as far as affected Fighting's worst match-ups, only 1 of them is affected by Blaziken's freedom. This is only with the HJK/Blitz/Protect/Knock Off set in mind though. A set change may change the match-ups in a different way, but not enough to fix all of Fighting's problems.
So quick summary, the battles it won here weren't won just because of Blaziken, and Fighting's worst match-ups aren't significantly affected by Blaziken.
This all kind of looks disorganized as hell right now (at least to me), but I'll fix that soon. By this weekend, I'll have all the match-ups for Blaziken on Fighting and then some.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Normal - win
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Steel - win
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Grass - win
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Bug - loss
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Psychic - loss
We would have done more, but I kind of felt burned out towards the end. I'm only showing 5 match-ups here, but with their outcomes, we saw that Blaziken didn't affect the overall outcome of any given match-up here too much. Fighting w/ Blaziken wins vs. Normal, Steel, and Grass in the replays I've shown, but these victories aren't even solely attributed to Blaziken. As iWanka has pointed out, Blaziken wasn't even sent out in 2 of those 3 matches. Conversely Fighting w/ Blaziken lost against Bug and Psychic, which are arguably unfavorable match-ups for Fighting, leading us to believe Blaziken's not as meta-breaking as we believe on Fighting.
Aside from Bug and Psychic, Fighting also has a difficult match-up with Dragon, Flying, Ghost, and Fairy, all of which except Ghost are unaffected with Blaziken's presence. So as far as affected Fighting's worst match-ups, only 1 of them is affected by Blaziken's freedom. This is only with the HJK/Blitz/Protect/Knock Off set in mind though. A set change may change the match-ups in a different way, but not enough to fix all of Fighting's problems.
So quick summary, the battles it won here weren't won just because of Blaziken, and Fighting's worst match-ups aren't significantly affected by Blaziken.
This all kind of looks disorganized as hell right now (at least to me), but I'll fix that soon. By this weekend, I'll have all the match-ups for Blaziken on Fighting and then some.
There's no way that gets unbanned lol, its ubers for a reason and i don't think people wanna face that thing over and over. There aren't alot of mons that straightaway counter any set they run, much like Greninja. It can go both physical and special and you most likely have to sac something to scout a bit of it's set. I just tried to change the discussion because talking about a possible unban of blaziken was useless and ignorant of most of you.
iWanka said:
I hope to don't sound like a ungrateful fuck, becos I apreciate u taking the time to do those replays, but if we are testing blaziken, and blaziken isn't even send out in the grass and normal replays... I think u know what i mean. All the other 3 replays seems legit.ArkenCiel said:
Agree with u man. Lets hope the Monotype Usage Stats of November change the discussion in this thread :3ThimoTheUltimateBOBO said:
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If there's no way it's getting unbanned, why would we even bring it up in the first place? That being said, please do not compare it to greninja, bc that already happened, and we proved they were different.
As for the other statement, not using Blaziken doesn't mean it's a bad replay. Wanka/Arken are right in saying there are matchups where it does have little affect. It can always apply the additional pressure in some just to be on a team, but in others, that may not be the case. You have to remember the types Blaziken could potentially be on are both hyper offensive, meaning, blaziken is not the only "starring role" on that team, they're filled with powerhouse mons/sweepers.
As for the ice match up (theory monning for rn, will get that replay soon), Fighting is already impossible for it (unless the person is half-competent), blaziken would not change much, other than having 2 super effective stabs. As for fire, that's a different story. Besides if the team has heatran, ice can sometimes sweep that easily given you apply enough pressure (especially with sr, limiting switchins). Blaziken would make it different in that, you either get scarf kyurem in before it gets passed +1 (probably on the protect) or you save Avalugg. Again, the major difference it would provide in this matchup is that it has 2 stabs that are super effective, so you probably would not use Piloswine (unless it's defensive) or Walrein (if you did, they would take a non sun boosted flare blitz with fair ease, but absolutely not a Hjk). Hope that clears up anything for the time being.
I said in my post that people were ignorant, so there's your answer
If this really is a desired pokemon it should be unbanned and given a period of existence (1month ie January). If lots of trauma and grief enters the mono room because of it, ban it. If not, then we have a new addition to the mono world.
Lots of programmers like to release a rough draft of their work and see what happens instead of trying to polish out every single bug and then debut their product. It is a time saving technique. I think it is fair to say there is some demand to unban and enough replays to say it might not be so bad. I say give it a shot.
Lots of programmers like to release a rough draft of their work and see what happens instead of trying to polish out every single bug and then debut their product. It is a time saving technique. I think it is fair to say there is some demand to unban and enough replays to say it might not be so bad. I say give it a shot.
That's actually a great idea. We did similar for Shaymin-S and Kyurem-w some time back, but a month period does sound pretty reasonable, so you can observe ladder trends as well as match up percentages to make a decision later. I'd totally second that notion.
To say the truth from what I have seen here and in the showdown chat the most common opinion seems to be to leave blaziken banned, only a minority is pushing for the suspect. Anyway i'm not again a retest, it could be fun :3 , but maybe a smaller time period (a whole month seems too much)Arvada- said:
If you actually took the time to understand the replays, you'd be smart enough to figure out that blaziken not being used in those replays has hidden meaning in itself. Since I didn't have to use it, it potentially means that it doesn't have as big of an effect on those types because I essentially won with 5 mons. If you are wondering what probably would've happened if I needed to use it in those matchups I can give gross insight to that.
Arken had brought a bulky staraptor in the normal battle along with a diggersby. If I got blaziken in on one of his walls I could've forced him to sack something and then he'd go to raptor and either get a defog off or u turn out on my potential switch. Or even BB for damage on something. If he gets that defog off then His raptor could continuously check my chicken because I would have to protect on all of his mins because they all outspeed and ko blaziken. I couldn't blindly switch in on a wall as well risking a potential t wave or any damage that would put me in range of diggersby's quick attack. And if I'm being forced to protect on his mons then raptor could just keep in getting free switches unless I make a play. In the event I do make a play and just outright hjk and proceed to just blow through everything. That isn't blaze being broke, that would be just me putting myself in a greater position to win.
As for grass. In all honesty if Arken would hit one of those storms and taken out coba right away. I would've had to go straight into blaziken because nothing else could revenge it. I would've taken huge damage from leaf storm along with the life orb recoil (assuming hjk ohkos serp which I'm p sure it does. He could've just went into his defensive venu right after and taken me out with a sludge bomb and I would've only recorded 1 kill. Sure it would've opened up a hole and I probably would've went on to win anyways but that is just simply a wall breaker doing it's job.
Based on all of that theorism, I honestly don't think it would hindered those matchups to a worse extent than they are already at.
Another thing about blaze that I think people should be taking into consideration more is that...It's frail as shit. Mons like blaze are potent if they can find their way into the playing field but the issue is getting them in. Blaziken can't switch in on shit and if it tries to, it will then probably be open to any priority from the damage it took along with the recoil that follows. Myself and Arken had a failed bug replay before the replay you guys saw and I ended up doubling into blaze on his scizor switch thinking id be able to rack up a kill and then save blaze for later. Scizors bullet punch did close to 50% and after the flare blitz recoil I was dead after rocks on switch making blaze useless after that. It's bulk is just so bad which is a massive disadvantage along with initial shitty speed which makes clicking protect a lot easier to predict around and pick up momentum on.
All in all it isn't nearly as bad as some people make it out to be. It seems so much more broken on paper than it is in battle.
P.S. Mixed sets with overheat are cool so you don't die after 1 turn of attacking. (Blazikens base spA is 110)
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Well, sorry if that bothered u since I said the other 3 replays were good, but yeah, those 2 replays were bad, to say it clear. Not sure what it means "those replays has hidden meaning in itself", what those replays show is which u managed to do well again those types without send out Blaziken, so we dont see the Blaziken effect in those battles, resulting in we will never know if Blaziken could be a threat or not in those battles.iWanka said:
Your insights are good, but again i still think those replays arent convinving.
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The voting idea is a good one, yes it is an arbitrary time frame (although you would get usage stats from a fresh month and see the w/l tables), and I'm not aware that blaziken has ever been tested since gen 5. I was giving an example of a time frame, not the necessary one. Anyways more proof can be derived from a ladder than these replays because of the sheer number of users that would be playing. That is the majority of the reason video games will host betas. I havent touched blaziken since this discussion started so i don't have a big opinion, just some suggestions.
I have mixed opinions on Blaziken. I'm iffy on letting it come back to Monotype considering how easily it can sweep teams with Speed Boost + amazing mixed offenses and high powered STABs. But at the same time, it's only allowed on Fire and Fighting and it doesn't affect matchups against other types too much aside from maybe Ice, Steel, and Rock although none of them aside from Steel are common and both Fire and Fighting are rough matchups regardless. I'm curious to see what others would vote for assuming we retest it.
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I'd say my steel vs fighting win rate is about 7/10 wins, fighting isn't hard cause you got doublade and skarm, about 3 sacs and a magnezone to volt switch on keldeo's. blaziken is gonna make this matchup a hell for steel and would force steel users to run stuff like klefki, and even then, it would just switch out.
I counteract this argument
First dont say "its ubers for a reason", We allow aegislash, deoxys, and landorus, and at one point, genesect, kyurem-white, shaymin-sky, and greninja. Just because a pokemon is in ubers in OU doesnt mean its uber level in monotype.
Second Most people run physical blaziken, i really wouldnt like running solarbeam blaziken on my team lol or fire blast when its attack stat is better and overall gets better moves to complement its stat.
Actually a lot of things can counter blaziken, firstly, blaz cant do anything to webs, it can get up to a protect, its still slow, maybe get up a move, still slow, psychic pokemon like slowbro, pretty much any water pokemon, ground teams, flying teams, etc, it still is pretty powerful but its nowwhere to being the level of "Only 2 counters, oops too broken for the meta" It has counters dont worry, you just need to play right. I dont see the pokemon obliterating any types except for the ones that fire and fighting already beats. Also we arent UNBANNING IT, we are trying to see if we can suspect it.
Dont be calling people ignorant and useless, when your being ignorant yourself.
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I don't see why people are complaining about the bug vs dragon match up, or the grass vs dragon match up. I have 2 replays that show these 2 types just DOMINATING one of the best dragon users around.
bug vs dragon: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-300021879
grass vs dragon: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-300018895
It's honestly as simple as that :)
bug vs dragon: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-300021879
grass vs dragon: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-300018895
It's honestly as simple as that :)
Don't forget about people complaining about Rock Vs Dragon http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-300014601
Alright so, Aegislash is allowed in mono just on 1 type, a pretty low tier type overall. All deoxys does in mono, is provide support. Usually hazards. Landorus got recently banned in the ou metagame but it was around for quite some time. You're saying blaziken has counters, I don't agree on that
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 385-455 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
about your suspecting part, just no. Ice, Steel, Grass, Bug, Rock, Psychic, Ghost, Fire, Fighting, Normal, Dark and Electric having 0 switch ins. All they do is rely on 'weak' priority attacks and recoil. That's even more broken than talonflame imo. And imo even greninja could not cover that much types in 1 moveset. All blaziken needs is Protect Hjk Flare Blitz and Knock off to leave 12 types without a switch in. Now that's broken.
Edit: it can also solo dragons: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-300058562
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I agree with thimo, types HAVE to have a possible counter and or check to a pokemon, and twelve of them simply don't.
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