Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Seo.]

Skarmory doesnt deserve a ban since there is basically a check/counter on every type for it, i may miss a few but here are some for each type

- Mega Pidgeot, Porygon2, PorygonZ

- Basically everything

- Lanturn, Empoleon, Volcanion

- Rotom-Mow

- Same as Fire, basically everything

- Hydreigon, Kyurem-Black

- Mega Camerupt, Seismitoad, Landorus

- Heatran

- Galvantula, Forretress

- Walrein, Kyurem-Black

- Clefable, Togekiss

- Victini, Slowbro, Starmie, Meloetta

- Charizard, Landorus, Zapdos, Thundurus

- Houndoom, Hydreigon, Tyranitar, Sableye

- Sableye, Chandelure

- Omastar, Tyranitar

- Nidoking, Tentacruel

- Keldeo, Cobalion, Infernape

Under no circumstance does skarmory deserve a ban, nor should it be suspected. Just because its "too defensive" or "too unbreakable" doesnt make it banable, every type in the meta has its ways around it, yes fighting and bug struggle with it a bit, but that still doesnt mean they dont have checks and counters.

 

[Entei]

We're not concerned with individual types, which should be obvious considering the tiering philosophy we have adopted. We're concerned with the overall metagame and whether each decision makes a positive or negative change. It's fairly clear to me that banning Skarmory just so Ghost can play with Aegislash would be a negative change.

I don't support a Skarmory ban, but I do support discussing this type of stuff when it comes up.

If these things are as non-sensical as people are claiming it shouldn't be hard to write a well-reasoned post that doesn't just call someone "dumb", "stupid", "idiotic", etc. People can like that post if they agree with it and we can move on.

A couple people responded with good points above. In some senses I'm just collating those in to one post here.

Before I do that, I want to get at some of the things that have been brought up so far concerning the tiering philosophy:

We don't tier with any particular type in mind.
We don't tier to "keep the good types good".
We don't tier to make all types equal.

We tier so that the metagame is balanced, isn't excessively reliant on team matchup (obviously there are limitations on this given the nature of Monotype), and has enough diversity for us to enjoy playing it.


A central element of the tiering philosophy is "Does it add to or subtract from the metagame?".

When thinking about "swapping" the Aegislash ban for a Skarmory ban, I think we're losing far more than we gain. This centers around 3 things:

1. Adding Aegislash to Ghost teams still leaves it among the lower tier types
No one is going to argue that Ghost is not better with Aegislash. I'm also not going to claim to be an expert on building/playing Ghost. However, through the entire ORAS metagame we never really saw Ghost have widespread success with Aegislash. There were particular players that excelled with it, but it has always been among the lower tier types and not particularly impactful on the overall metagame. (just my opinion, not a statement of fact)

2. Removing Skarmory from Flying doesn't ruin the type, but does require everyone to significantly change their approach
Obviously Skarmory is important to Flying, but I don't think it will completely ruin the type if it was removed. There are just far too many good Flying types for that to happen. Lando-T can certainly fill the role of Rock-neutrality, SR setter, and defensive "wall". It doesn't have the staying power of Skarmory, but it is a much better replacement than Bronzong on Steel teams. If anything, I think it might increase the diversity of Flying teams (a good thing). It could also allow us to consider unbanning CharX or Mega-Alt, which is very interesting in my opinion.

3. Adding Aegislash while removing Skarmory decimates Steel teams.
On Steel, Skarmory is the all important immunity that many Monotype teams need to be successful. Importantly, it is one of the only Steel types that has significant staying power throughout a match. Both Misaka and Arifeen pointed out that shifting this role over to Bronzong leaves the balanced Steel teams very weak. Also, removing Skarmory cripples the offensive builds that are very common right now by removing their primary hazard setter. This alone isn't necessarily a bad thing, but adding Aegislash has to bring something that fills the void and makes the overall metagame better.

Adding Aegislash to a Skarmory-less Steel team doesn't do much... The immunity core doesn't exist. Those balanced Steel teams that we often cite as being too powerful with Aegislash aren't an option. You get a more potent Fighting immunity for balanced builds. Offensive builds get a better version of SD Doublade. Both playstyles are overly weak to Ground attacks. Aegislash also comes with the annoying 50/50s from King's Shield, which I don't think anyone truly enjoys or finds healthy.

Overall, what did we accomplish?
We slightly improved Ghost, which we know has minimal impact on the overall meta. We nerfed Flying and forced Flying trainers to explore new builds that don't feature Skarmory. Finally, we killed off an entire playstyle (Balanced Steel) and made the offensive Steel teams worse.

I don't see how anyone can interpret this as improving the metagame.

Now that both roomowners denied the silly idea of banning skarmory over aegislash, we can finally move on to a more recent, more important topic, being the latest release, Volcanion.

Here's my take on it, regarding it's position on Fire(I didn't get to play it on Water yet):

After a long wait Fire finally got its reliable switch in to BD Azumaril (sludge bomb ohkos after Belly Drum), choiced keldeo(hp grass or forces a switch), Specs water rain spam(forces a switch), cm scald suicune(it doesnt do much back but Suicune only having scald you can stall it out, or force it to switch and deal with it later with Solarbeam zard Y or whatever check you run) and so much more..
With it's insanely productive ability, it can protect all of its teammates(besides waterfalls from mega gyara lol), AND heal off of a type that's a weakness(water absorb ;D), if used against it.
Personally, my opinion is it should be used with a Choice Scarf (speaking solely about Fire, I do not have an opinion on Volcanion on water teams), that way it can outspeed and OHKO insanely annoying threats such as Diancie-Mega(scarf Steam Eruption), +6 azumaril(Sludge Bomb weakens it so much you can revenge with Fletchinder/Entei/Infernape), Pinsir-Mega, Landorus, ect.

It doesnt do as well against dragons though, unless you decide to run HP Ice as its 4th slot(will post a set below), that might work nicely since it is really bulky, able to hit once, tank one/even 2 hits, and possibly KO the second hit(or weaken it to a level it dies to the weakest priority you have/force it in since it dies to rocks, in this case you can actually switch it out and set up with stuff like fletchinder/volcarona(if you run them), screens if you run rotom heat(with screens), ect, on a mon that's weakened due to the use of draco meteor, or idk there sure are a bunch of possible situations).

here's the set I suggest:

Volcanion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Sludge Bomb

other moves: Different Fire-STAB moves over fire blast(flamethrower/overheat) over Fire Blast,,, HP Ice over HP Grass(mainly for dragons).
other nature: If you feel it's weak you can use Modest, but you get outsped by stuff like Tornadus-Therian/Weavile both of which can knock off your scarf and leave you extremely vulnerable, not to mention weakened after the hit, its up to you.

Would like to see more of you voicing your opinions on this, we only got a tiny bit of talk about it when it came out, which in my opinion wasnt enough so.. your thoughts?

 

[Confluxx [Old]]

Very well put by Entei about Volcanion on Fire. I'm actually the opposite, haven't tried out Volcanion on Fire yet but I have used it on Water so I'm gonna give my thoughts about it.

With the release of Volcanion Water finally has something to effectively deal with Grass types. It has decent speed for a wallbreaker and outspeed most things on Grass, the exceptions being Rotom-C, Serperior, Roserade, Virizion, Mega Sceptile as well as speed tying with Breloom. Half of these Pokemon are not very common on Grass which means Volcanion has a lot of fun vs Grass. A Choice Specs set makes Grass' two best and only switch-ins to Fire (Cradily and Mega Venusaur) get 2HKO'd by Fire Blast even with investment in SpD, and everything else gets OHKO'd as well as outsped. Volcanion at full won't be OHKO'd by any Pokemon on Grass except Rotom-C's Thunderbolt.

252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 204-242 (56.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 186-219 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A Modest nature secures the 2HKO on Cradily.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 204-240 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A Choice Scarf set misses out on 2HKOing Cradily and Mega Venusaur, but it outspeeds the previously mentioned fast Grass types and can OHKO them without taking a hit from them. This excludes Rotom-C though because it usually runs a Choice Scarf of it's own.

Other than being a very important asset for Water to beat Grass, it's wallbreaking capabilities threaten all the types as everything that doesn't resist it's two STABs will get 2HKO'd at most. Even Pokemon that resists it's two STABs will take a decent amount of damage if it's Choice Specs Volcanion and there's a 30% chance they'll get burned by Steam Eruption.

252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Zapdos: 210-247 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 124-147 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

A Modest variant has a high chance 2HKO's Chansey after Stealth Rock if Eviolite has been knocked off.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 283-334 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

A Modest nature is also an option and actually the nature I prefer, but I put Timid in the calc to show that it still hits incredibly hard without a Modest nature.

As you can see, common bulky Pokemon and even Pokemon that resist Volcanion's two STABs can't switch in safely making Volcanion a very powerful wallbreaker on Water that hardly has any switch-ins if it's running Choice Specs.

A Choice Scarf set helps it outspeed and kill Pokemon like Mega Diancie, Landorus-I, Nidoking, Breloom etc.

These two sets are my favorite however other options are Rest/Sleep Talk on stall oriented Water teams or Assault Vest.

Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Grass
- Sludge Bomb

Other than two STABs, Hidden Power Grass to hit Water/Ground types with Water Absorb and Sludge Bomb for Fairy types, Focus Blast for bulky Normal types and Earth Power are also solid options

A Timid nature can be ran if you wanna speed tie with Breloom which is only useful if the sash is broken.

For a Choice Scarf set moveset stays the same with a Timid nature.

Don't have experience with Assault Vest Volcanion.

That's my take on Volcanion on Water, looking forward to seeing others state their opinions.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Hi, I'll keep this short and concise and write down my thoughts on the Metagame as I've taken it to be after some test.

Maybe it's because I suck or something, but it seems to me that this Metagame favors Offensively biased Teams rather than the Bulky Offense I was accustomed to during the Pre Mega Diancie era. Two Types who were previously infamous for their Bulky Offense, Flying and Water, I found underhelming. Both High Ladder and Low Ladder alike prepare for these two Types' Defensive Cores, making it to where the standard Sets and even Pokemon themselves exploitable. That's not to say they are bad; I find that alternate Sets/Cores can throw off an opponent, and help out with the rock-paper-scissors mind games.

An example of this would be the Flying Core. Instead of the standard Skarm/Zapdos Core, I've been using the SDef variant to check Diancie-Mega, Heat Wave Zapdos for Bisharp, and RestTalk Gyarados with Waterfall & Roar/T-Wave to check any Mamoswine without a Band. Gyarados helps relieve the pressure off of Skarmory, and provide the Team with a relatively solid check to Keldeo. I've been using these three to compliment Zard Y+Lando+Dragonite/ScarfMence with mild success. But I feel like Flying demands too much with its relial on Stealth Rocks and Defog to apply pressure on the opposing Team, leaving it open to Anti-Leads and Wallbreakers. Similar situation with Water. Sure, Water is great in that it almost literally has a Defensive Pivot to each of its Threats, but anything with An Electric/Grass combination brings its Defensive Cores to its knees. That being said, I find that a more offensive approach to the Metagame more fun to play.

Lately, I've really been enjoying Types like Psychic, Dragon, and Offensive Water. They each have the tools (of destruction!) to apply pressure on the opposing Team and force them to sacrifice a key part of their Defensive Core. But of all those and much more I'm especially fond of Offensive Bug. It just straight up strikes the fear of Arceus in common High Ladder Types like Water, Psychic, and Dark, and has a beautiful balance of Offense and Defense. Expert Belt Galv is one of those Mons' that I mentioned with that beautiful Electric/Grass Coverage. I love putting Water Cores in that "checkmate" position, whereas you just spam Thunder when you can and spam Giga Drain when you can't.

Overall, I definitely think a more Offensive approach is better in this Meta, especially when absolute monsters like Hoopa-Unbound run amok. What do you guys think about the current Meta? Strongest Type? Play Style? Favorite Mon' to use? I'd appreciate your thoughts, as I'm trying to get back into Monotype.

Thanks for reading

 

[Azelea]

I would like the bring up the good old Mega-Sableye discussion back up. When Mega-Sableye was being suspected many players raised the concern how a Mega-Sableye ban would affect the solid middle tier type known as Ghost. Even though they admitted that they would ban it on Dark if it would be a possibility, they refused to ban it globally since it would cripple ghost. Now after Aegislash got banned, ghost is without a doubt one of the worst types in monotype. Banning Mega-Sableye would surely make it worse but it wouldn’t make it unusable. Since its already a bottom tier type, I don’t think the biggest argument of the suspect “Ghost needs it” would be viable anymore.

Other big argument was “Every type has a solid check for it”. Lets look at Electric for instance. Many of the checks that people listed were, Band Luxray and Toxic Mega-Ampharos. The funny thing is neither of these work really. Mega-Sableye can just recover Luxray’s Wild Charges and kill it with recoil. Mega-Ampharos works slightly better but what if the opponent is using Umbreon with heal bell support. You are literally going to get 6-0’d by Mega-Sableye. Probably the greatest poison user of this generation GodChef admitted that he has to use Nidoqueen with Poison Fang and Dragon tail. Its pretty devastating to think about how you literally have to use exact pokemon and sacrifice 2 moves, not 1 but 2 just for one Pokemon. Ice has to use Walrein with Frosth Breath just for one pokemon(EDIT: Apparently for Clef too). Oh and we can’t forget what a solid check does Dark and Ghost have, Their own Mega-Sableye of course!

Im taking this from OU’s suspect thread etiquette:

-Secondly, just because something lacks counters / checks does NOT mean it is instantly broken. Cube, BW Hydreigon etc were / are all impossible to switch into, but that does not instantly make them broken. However, if something DOES have checks and counters, this doesn't make it NOT broken either. Genesect had counters, Aegislash had counters (specific to its set) and so on. Hint: If you are using garbage mons to check a top-tier sweeper, then its potentially a good indicator as to how unhealthy it is.

In my opinion Mega-Sableye is driving the current meta so much that it has become unhealthy as seen with the weird and wonky checks that players are forced to use. I’m not really demanding an instant resuspect but it would make me happy if the council would have a deep discussion about the matter. I would also like to hear new opinions about the topic and i’m open to listen fully thought counter arguments if you have them.

 

[ArkenCiel]

Playing devil's advocate here, but if I recall correctly, the current philosophy views each type and the archetypes within those types as separate play styles. Electric Balance, Poison Balance, Stall Dark, any incarnation of Ice, and so on are to Monotype as Stall, Offense, and Balance are to OU. The current philosophy does not endorse equality among the types since they weren't already equal to begin with. The rules in place just prevent one type, or rather one play style, from being too unbearable to the most viable types/play styles. Using a play style like Electric Balance or Poison Balance just naturally comes with the risk of being at a disadvantaged match up against Sableye. That's what you sign up for when you click that team and challenge someone IN the same way that a user with a Psychic team without Meloetta is willingly taking the risk of being vulnerable to Shadow Ball spam.

It's almost like people are expecting to beat OU teams with PU teams. If people want the highest chance to beat an OU team then those people should use an OU team as well... It's ridiculous otherwise to expect a balance between OU and PU teams. In the same way, if you want to beat Mega Sableye then you should use a play style or a type that can handle it RATHER than working with a bottom tier type's lackluster options. We have Pokemon that can successfully deal with Mega Sableye. People are just choosing not to use them because they want to use their favorite type. That's nice and all, but people can't expect the whole metagame to adopt a philosophy more favorable to them just because they insist on using the type they like best.

TL;DR if M-Sab is giving you a bad day, use a type that actually has answers to it.

 

[Acast]

Sorry Arken but I'm going to have to disagree with your TL;DR. You're more or less correct in saying that we view individual types as play styles (I can't remember if we officially adopted that mindset, but I think it's the most efficient way of viewing things and I follow it myself.) But I believe all metagames strive for diversity in playstyles and we should be no exception. If Mega Sableye is limiting the diversity of Monotype by discouraging the use of lesser playstyles/types, maybe it's worth taking another look at it. I don't know if I'm completely in favor of a re-suspect, but I believe it's worth discussing.

 

[scpinion]

I would like the bring up the good old Mega-Sableye discussion back up. When Mega-Sableye was being suspected many players raised the concern how a Mega-Sableye ban would affect the solid middle tier type known as Ghost. Even though they admitted that they would ban it on Dark if it would be a possibility, they refused to ban it globally since it would cripple ghost. Now after Aegislash got banned, ghost is without a doubt one of the worst types in monotype. Banning Mega-Sableye would surely make it worse but it wouldn’t make it unusable. Since its already a bottom tier type, I don’t think the biggest argument of the suspect “Ghost needs it” would be viable anymore.

Other big argument was “Every type has a solid check for it”. Lets look at Electric for instance. Many of the checks that people listed were, Band Luxray and Toxic Mega-Ampharos. The funny thing is neither of these work really. Mega-Sableye can just recover Luxray’s Wild Charges and kill it with recoil. Mega-Ampharos works slightly better but what if the opponent is using Umbreon with heal bell support. You are literally going to get 6-0’d by Mega-Sableye. Probably the greatest poison user of this generation GodChef admitted that he has to use Nidoqueen with Poison Fang and Dragon tail. Its pretty devastating to think about how you literally have to use exact pokemon and sacrifice 2 moves, not 1 but 2 just for one Pokemon. Ice has to use Walrein with Frosth Breath just for one pokemon. Oh and we can’t forget what a solid check does Dark and Ghost have, Their own Mega-Sableye of course!

Im taking this from OU’s suspect thread etiquette:


In my opinion Mega-Sableye is driving the current meta so much that it has become unhealthy as seen with the weird and wonky checks that players are forced to use. I’m not really demanding an instant resuspect but it would make me happy if the council would have a deep discussion about the matter. I would also like to hear new opinions about the topic and i’m open to listen to fully thought counter arguments if you have them.

I fully support this. The council doesn't need to hold some kind of discussion only amongst ourselves—metagame discussion is what this thread is for. In general, we use this thread to drive the discussion we have amongst ourselves.
My thoughts
The "type X needs this 'mon to remain viable" is a terrible argument when it comes to choosing to not ban something. I know that many people in the community believe it was this mindset that kept Mega-Sableye in the meta after the original suspect test, which is disappointing. That line of reasoning just makes our metagame more reliant on team matchup (e.g. who has the OP 'mon that destroys a particular type). It also puts undue pressure on players in the team builder—especially those that chose to play with a lower-tier type—as evidenced by the obscure sets azelea mentioned and those that were mentioned in the original discussion.

That said, we shouldn't tier to give all types an equal chance (or even a chance in general). Arken completely sniped this section of my post above, so I'll just add on to what he said. We shouldn't consider re-testing m-sab just because it beats Balanced Electric or because Poison has to run some obscure Nidoqueen set. The reason to re-test it is because we think banning it could lead to a better metagame overall. That means considering questions like:

Does freeing up those 2 moveslots on Nidoqueen (or just the Nidoqueen slot in general) bring more to the overall metagame (by allowing Poison to cover more top tier threats) than keeping Mega-Sableye on Dark and Ghost?

Can Balanced Electric (or Ice) successfully compete in the overall meta if it doesn't have to run niche checks to Mega-Sableye?

What are the major changes to Dark builds if we remove m-sab? Could those changes lead to unhealthy things at the top end of the metagame?

not

Does Mega-Sableye beat lots of types that already struggle in the overall metagame?

 

[truedrew]

I will try to be brief here but hey we got time so actually read the post

Mega Sableye:
This pokemon is probably one of the best mega's in ORAS considering just how god damn good it is. Pre mega it has the best ability for a support mon (prankster) and post mega it has another top tier ability (magic bounce).

Pros:
Not an expert but having culminated somewhat of an understanding of how mega sableye works, here are my perceived list of pros
1. Prankster:
This one is pretty obvious because it allows sableye to be such a nuisance to almost every pokemon in existence with priority status, recovery, set up (can set up CM's like nobodies business) and also allows it to shut down fat mons with taunt regardless of speed. The added benefit of priority taunt is that it makes sableye an amazing anti lead as even without mega evolving, it can prevent either hazard setting or removal or status which allows it to greatly contribute to both ghost and dark as on ghost it is like the only form of hazard control which is huge because ghost is neutral to SR and most ghosts are grounded so spikes also pile up the damage. On dark this thing is a fighting immune and IMO a one man 6-0'r if infernape is dead as it can spread burns to cripple most fighting mons which leaves non Cm variants only answer as keldeo (If it's not cm keld then it can lose to cm sableye) Also prankster just means that any wall which is not fairy type has a hard time absorbing status or taking on this in general.

2. Stats
HP 50 Atk 85 Def 125 SpA 85 SpD 125 Spe 20

Although 50 hp is rather low the 125/125 surely make up for the lack of health and make mega sableye a fucking monster. It can eat hits from both sides of the spectrum and can hard check so many things it's stupid. I'm sure that nobody needs a in depth explanation of why 50/125/125 is BULKY AS TRUCKS so i will leave this at
"252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO"

3. Splashibility
There is no downside to using mega sableye on ghost and on dark the only bad thing is that mega houndoom is unable to be used which makes bug harder but not impossible to win with some smart playing given that ttar can soft check volc long enough.

 

[Eien]

I think if we just look at Poison alone, we can understand the problem with Mega Sableye.

Poison, by most's account, is actually a very good type. It has access to Nidoking, which tears through balanced Flying or Steel; Mega Venusaur, which walls most of Water and Fighting; and Scolipede, which helps it beat even Psychic. It also has natural type advantage against Fairy, which cannot beat Mega Venusaur without Mega Gardevoir (Choice Scarf Gardevoir struggles) or flinches from Togekiss. Poison does decently against the top types of the metagame. However, because of Mega Sableye, Poison is losing against a bottom tier type (and Dark). This is not trying to beat OU with PU, this is the complete opposite, where a relatively good type is completely dominated by one single Pokemon that can appear on one of the worst types. Azelea didn't mention this, but that absurd Nidoqueen set uses Rivalry. Nidoqueen has access to one of the strongest abilities in Sheer Force, but is forced to use the awful Rivalry so its Poison Fang can poison Mega Sableye. I'd call wasting two moveslots and using a subpar ability on one of Poison's best Pokemon just to handle Mega Sableye quite ridiculous.

Further, it's not as if it's only lower tier types like Electric that struggle against Mega Sableye. Look at middle to high tier types such as Fighting, which is forced to always run Guts Heracross and/or SubCM Keldeo to beat it (I should in fairness note Guts Heracross would probably still be used for regular Sableye). Look at Steel, which relies on Will-O-Wisp misses, the suboptimal Lum Berry Bisharp, Iron Head flinches, invested Moonblast Jirachi, or Lava Plume burns, which as you may have noticed is a list of luck or not the best builds. Look at Dragon, which has to use a damage-boosting item Kyurem-B (It's my opinion that Choice Band Dragonite is just slightly too weak, as Mega Sableye can abuse -2 Draco Meteor users or Mega Latias to later Recover) or Substitute + Swords Dance Mega Garchomp (which means no Stealth Rock support) to break it reliably most games. This isn't quite the "beating OU with PU" argument, in my opinion. Middle tier types struggle a lot with this Pokemon as well. Of course I don't mean to say that no type should be struggling against Dark and Mega Sableye on it, but I feel it's not good for the metagame. Dark can still use Sableye, which has Prankster Taunt and Will-O-Wisp. It no longer has an auto wincon against a majority of types, but it should still perform fine due to its many other options for late game sweeping.

I think even if we just consider Poison, the metagame could benefit a lot with "unlocking" types that are being forced to work around Mega Sableye right now. It looks to me like Mega Sableye is bending the metagame to fit around it.

 

[ArkenCiel]

Most's account? I'd readily disagree with the most's account then. Poison is not a good type because it is not a reliable one. All good types have their fair share of usage, that's just how it is. People naturally use what is good, but Poison has never seen regular use on the ladder by a good portion of the community nor has regularly won in the many number of tournaments the community has held. There is a reason the match up table from the Monotype site always had the Poison column (or row depending how you like to see arrange your stats) marked with significantly more red cells than green ones.

Nidoking does a lot to Flying, can 2HKO potentially every relevant threat, but more often than not, Flying will still win anyway because of the absurd amount of threats that it carries in Landorus, Charizard Y, and Togekiss. Nidoking does break Steel, but it only takes one SD from Scizor and a well played game in chipping down Pokemon OR a properly used Excadrill/Magnezone to turn the tide in Steel v Poison. Venusaur does hold too much of an edge against Water. Poison does hold a lot of anti-Psychic Pokemon too. Fighting has reliable Pokemon for Venusaur in Medicham, Gallade, and Hawlucha. Klefki's support in tandem with the mentioned Pokemon and CM Clefable is actually disgusting for Poison. The middle types like Ground, Normal, Bug, and Fire take more games away from Poison than Poison takes from them. I would never personally use Poison on an opponent I've never met because it's just not reliable.

On paper, Poison might be seen a good type, but in practice, definitely no. I'd agree that it's a viable counter-pick, but not a reliable type. If we just look at Poison and "unlock it" by banning Mega Sableye, we won't gain much. Mega Sableye's banishment will definitely promote diversity. That's easy enough to agree on. It's clearly a threat and everything can be more "expressive" with it gone. I cannot say that Mega Sableye doesn't shape the metagame around it. That's how good this Pokemon, but I also can't say that the changes are unhealthy. There is now less reason to run Life Orb on Bisharp for fear of Sableye. Its absurd power backed by LO has been effectively been cut down by 30% because of it. Keldeo can no longer spam its amazing STAB moves backed by Specs in the same way. Dragon now has to use its Outrage and Draco Meteor spam more carefully. I actually welcome these changes, haha.

 

[Wanka]

Poison actually got a surprising amount of usage in the most recent mpl and it didnt do all too bad either from what I remember. And if ur going to throw out some shit about "oh poison has always had lowish usage so its not good" then you gotta retrack that real quick because there this type called fairy that has had below 4.5% usage for a good while now and its one of the better types in the tier.

Nice, you figured out that poison has a tough time with flying and steel (it can kinda handle steel if ur using weezing but since nobody uses weez except for chef ill give you that one). What does that even mean tho, it has some decent matchups against the mid to highrer types and its proven in the current meta that it can hold its own and shouldnt be held to the same standard as types like rock and ice anymore.

So yeah what eien said holds true.

 

[Dece1t]

I'm standing with my opinion, even when Mega Sableye was suspected, it was and is manageable. As an Ice user, I can whole heartedly say I have little to no trouble against. Like Azelea mentioned, yea, I do use Frost Breath Walrein/Lapras, but Mega Sableye is not the only reason, gaurenteed crits are pretty handy, especially for CM abusers in general, that isn't from Mega Sableye being over-centralising. Typically either those guys or Mega Glalie have almost no problems breaking it.

As for Poison, yea, Mega Sableye is a threat, but, also managable. On Switchin, Banded Scolipede 2KO's it with Mega Horn, and Dazzling Gleam Gengar is also pretty nifty (and this also isn't just for Mega Sab, Poison also tends to have trouble vs Dragon as well through my personal experience with the type). Not to mention, Nidoking can threaten an unboosted one (plus, its good to note Utility Mega Sableye has been pretty popular not all teams run CM). As for one that's already boosted, Tentacruel/Golbat is have access to Haze, and Teanta can break it down with Acid Spray/Scald.

tl;dr Mega Sableye is not broken, it's perfectly fine the way it is.

 

[ArkenCiel]

Poison actually got a surprising amount of usage in the most recent mpl and it didnt do all too bad either from what I remember. And if ur going to throw out some shit about "oh poison has always had lowish usage so its not good" then you gotta retrack that real quick because there this type called fairy that has had below 4.5% usage for a good while now and its one of the better types in the tier.

Nice, you figured out that poison has a tough time with flying and steel (it can kinda handle steel if ur using weezing but since nobody uses weez except for chef ill give you that one). What does that even mean tho, it has some decent matchups against the mid to highrer types and its proven in the current meta that it can hold its own and shouldnt be held to the same standard as types like rock and ice anymore.

So yeah what eien said holds true.

Huh? Yeah, it did get usage in the recent MPL because, as I said, it's a viable counter-pick. Is it reliable? Clearly not when it's not what wins tournaments and what performs well in the ladder. Don't just disregard the overall stats - where it markedly loses to way more types than it beats - because it was used in MPL 6 or so times and won half the time. Towards higher ladder play, Poison is consistently below 2.5% usage (along with Ice and Rock) whereas Fairy is consistently above 4% usage. Taking the match up table into account, Fairy actually has more than one match up going for it and noticeably less bad match ups. Fairy and Poison are in different worlds.

All I was saying is that Poison isn't reliable enough to be considered good when it doesn't have the usage and results to back it up.

Poison isn't as bad as Rock, but how can you agree with "Poison, by most's account, is actually a very good type." That's beyond me. Way too much for me to agree with. It just sounded like, "Ban Sableye so we can use this lord of a type." Again, I can't agree with that because I don't see it as a type that the metagame would revolve around with what I think are lackluster results.

EDIT: I don't want to make a new post for Wanka because it's not worth it. Our definition of a "good" type is just different. "Holding your own" isn't enough to be good to me. You have be consistent to be good. Winning an MPL game here and there doesn't make the type good. Proof that it's not good? The lack of its presence in high ladder play. The lack of results in tournaments. The data that shows its match ups and usage are all just additional data that serve to prove my point. If it's not reliable, it's not good. It could pass as decent, but how can you agree with "Poison is actually very good" and then say it's not as reliable as the higher tier types. What would that make the higher tier types, very, VERY good? It's being given too much credit.

 

[Wanka]

While numbers do play a role in how good types are and what should and should not be used, I think ur overdoing it a bit with the matchup tables and usage. The matchup tables are based off of the 1630 glicko range which makes all of the data so crude and everytime I look at the table I find myself scratching my head at a decent portion of the data. I also don't understand ur logic with "oh low usage = not a good and reliable type." Yeah no shit, its not as reliable as the higher tier types, nobody is saying that it is. That doesn't make it not good and completely unreliable though. It doesnt matter whether it has 2.5% usage or 9% usage, its matchups between the types will be the same. That wont change the fact that it can hold its own with the mid-top tier types.

Tl;dr: scraping the surface by solely taking usage stats into account and then giving an in depth analysis on it is completely illogical and doesnt show how good or not good a type is. Its good to get an idea, but nothing in depth comes from those stats.

 

[Dece1t]

Poison is still 1 of 18 usable types, and I think in situations like that it should be taken into account, otherwise Id agree with Arken, especially with his last point about only banning Mega Sableye just to make Poison a potentially good type (which it actually already is, I think it's pretty underrated). You have to remember as well what scp mentioned a while back, with Risk vs Reward with banning mons/considering what type to use as well. That has yet to be brought up, is there more Risk then there is Reward when reconsidering banning Mega Sableye? Not to mention, Dark is mid tiered compared to Flying, Psychic, Water, ect (I am not saying it's inferior, im saying in terms of usage), so what benefit exactly would we get out of banning a mon that was already proven once to be perfectly fine by a decent margin? What's the Risk in banning this as well? Well, Ghost would definitely be near unusable if it isn't already with Aegislash out of the picture, and Dark I'd imagine would shift from a generally balanced type, more so onto the gears of Bulky Offense (think about it, Mega Sab is a brilliant wall, and can switch into nearly any status, while the other Megas promote more Offense). The Metagame as I've noticed has been a lot more offensive geared, and balance is atm on a back seat (that doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it isn't used as much, which is understandable where most offensive teams carry some deadly wallbreajers, often breaking balanced teams, a good example being Steelbreaker Hoopa-U, or Mega Garchomp, this list honestly goes on). With banning Mega Sab, your limiting a type that works fantastically balanced, to being even more so probably bulky offensive, and that only promotes that playstyle even more.

I think there is more cons than pros of banning Mega Sableye, and I think it should not be reconsidered for a suspect, assuming the results will be pretty similar as similar points are being brought up.

 

[scpinion]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-suspect-sablenite-again.3574814/

Please use that thread to discuss the Sablenite suspect and the overall metagame during the suspect!

 

[scpinion]

The voting stage for the 2nd Sablenite suspect has ended. Thanks to everyone who participated in the suspect!

Monotype requires 60% of suspect voters to support a change for it to be implemented. With 60.5% of the voters choosing ban, Sablenite will be banned from Monotype.
You may view the votes here.

Feel free to discuss the the new metagame here.

 

[Sabella]

good finally got it right this time. Happy to see this thing go with all the matchup reliant battles it caused

 

[Zane0144]

Wow, 1/2 a percent? That's a shame. Split decisions like this are always unencouraging on how wanted/neccessary the ban really was.


Edit: 23 to 15. Okay that isn't bad.

 

[Seo.]

That was close! Atleast certain pokemon can now resort to better and more viable sets like RestTalk Ampharos rather then toxic

 

[LemonJello88]

Finally. This metagame is going to be fantastic! LGI Monotype!

 

[Acast]

Some discussions in the monotype room on showdown brought up that Mega Medicham might be the best Psychic mega now that Gardevoir isn't needed to keep Sableye in check. Thoughts on that? Are there other types that will benefit from this ban? How will they benefit?

 

[Tyke]

Some discussions in the monotype room on showdown brought up that Mega Medicham might be the best Psychic mega now that Gardevoir isn't needed to keep Sableye in check. Thoughts on that? Are there other types that will benefit from this ban? How will they benefit?

TBH now that Mega-Sableye is banned Psychic has to worry more about the three other relevant and FAR more threatening Dark megas: Sharpedo, Houndoom, and Tyranitar.

So have fun, psychic users, finding a way to deal with their increased usage n_n

 

[Myth1111]

Just my 2 cents, but here we go...

Well let's see.... most Dark will run regular Sableye now, which still walls Mega Medi, so I don't see how that's a point.

I don't see how banning Sablenite helps the other types rise in usage, for example types like Electric were brought up. Electric still gets completely walled by Dragon, which is about as used as Dark. Poison was brought up, but it also gets walled by Dragon, and also by Steel.

It was brought up that a ban of Sablenite will cause an increase in Poison, which will affect Flying, since Poison has pokes that are effective against Flying, such as Nidoking and Nidoqueen. This is true, if the rise in Poison was to happen. But, as I mentioned above, Poison still gets walled by some of the most common types such as Steel and Dragon.

It was brought up that Psychic will drop in usage since Dark will use more threatening megas to it. This is pretty much the only thing I agree with, but only to a certain extent. With the ban of Sablenite, I expect Dark to fall in usage, since its best mega got banned.

Overall, the way I see it, some types that needed to have a Mega Sable check will now have a more viable set on their pokes, such as no Clear Smog on Weezing, and no Toxic on Mega Amph. Will that make them rise in usage? No, not really.