Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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Having played in both metas I defiantly found the one with type only bans more fun, maybe it was 'unbalanced' but it wasnt as horrific as some people say im not referring to the skymin era but the one that was just before they type only bans. The thing that got to me more about the type only bans removal was the fact they were thrust upon us without consulting the community really and we were sort of made to accept it and this is where alot of people hate on the council as it was a council descision to remove them. however on the flipside i dont feel we should be blaming the council on the way we as a community voted in the suspect tests. When it came to voting in these suspects though people who felt something was strong on one type but not another were left were forced to either abstain, vote ban or vote no ban which can leave people regretting there desision if one type becomes overly powerful or the other one was nerfed to a near unusable way and i feel the reintroduction of type only bans would help people in this situation as well as add a little bit more variety to teams.
P.S I know that im a bit rambly and i apologie for that.
 
a bit of a short post but why not let the community decide on type bans like how we decide whether pokemon get kicked out or stay, with a suspect test?

One of the major points for type bans in the first place was that it was confusing to newer players, but personally I believe the confusion was because the banlist was different than ou. I haven't been paying attention to chat that much these past few months but I'd say we still get lots of people asking why things like talonflame and mega char x are banned, and I would go as far to say that all the people who would've been confused why x is banned on y type are still confused that ou mons are banned here.

tl;dr let the community decide on type bans with a suspect test or something
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
So much for getting to bed before midnight for once lol

Re: Hoopa-U. We suspected it, as has been said. It was found not to be broken, and remains unbanned. The council considered suspecting it again shortly before the recent mSab suspect, but narrowly decided that because there weren't really any new arguments for a ban that it didn't require another suspect.

Re: Type bans.
The meta is better with type bans, but we shouldn't have them. I know many of you have read that sentence and now think either that I'm insane or simply not qualified to be on the council, but hear me out - this decision really comes down to the wider Smogon tiering philosophy, and there's good reasons to abide by it.
The idea behind smogon tiering is that as little as possible is changed from the games while making the game highly competitive. In other words, there's a list of banned pokemon and a few mechanics are looked at (e.g. sleep clause) in order to make the games fun, but in general as little is changed as possible - if you want to get into the game it's very easy as you just look at the list of banned pokemon and don't use them, but that's more an added bonus than the reason it's done this way. The reason it's done this way is (in extremely basic terms) that you have to draw the line somewhere if you don't want a meta where lv.72 mega rayquaza is allowed but lv.73 mega rayquaza is banned, and the simpler something is the better. If you want to argue over this general policy then feel free to PM me about it and I'll explain the idea in more detail, but this isn't the thread for it.
But, I hear you shout, what about those highly complex bans Smogon has implemented such as Baton Pass clause, Endless Battle Clause or Aldaron's Proposal? Well, consider this: the ideas behind them are still very simple. Baton Pass clause is as close to saying "you can't use bp chains" as you can get that a battle sim can really enforce. Similarly, if two people agreed "let's not try to force an endless battle to get the opponent to forfeit" then you wouldn't need a complex system, but showdown can't implement a gentleman's agreement so it uses complex-looking rules that really just boil down to a very simple idea.
Type-only bans are more complex than this at heart. They aren't implementing a simple idea. They're making a simple idea - the banlist - complex, in effect you have to look at 18 lists to see what's legal rather than just one list. And thus, it goes against Smogon's idea of simplicity far more than the other complex bans that have been implemented.

So no, we won't be reintroducing type bans while we're still part of Smogon. Feel free to join Pokemon Online though, I hear they banned Drought lol
 
So much for getting to bed before midnight for once lol
Re: Type bans.
The meta is better with type bans, but we shouldn't have them. I know many of you have read that sentence and now think either that I'm insane or simply not qualified to be on the council, but hear me out - this decision really comes down to the wider Smogon tiering philosophy, and there's good reasons to abide by it.
So what your saying is that its a good idea to have type bans, but its a bad idea to have them because of the tiering philosophy?
So, fundementally, your implying that you dont give any f**** about the playability of monotype.
Because not having the type only clause is ruining this teir.
And to be frank, we might as well not be a part of smogon if it means getting type bans back. As your average monotype player, i have seen no advantages coming from monotype being recognised as official. practically nothing has changed for the players in that regard.
By the looks of it, your almost ready to follow smogon down a precipice. At no part in that post do you talk about viability or enjoyment or balance. At no point do you mention how smogons teiring philosophy makes things better for monotype as a teir and more enjoyable. In fact, you mentioned at the start it would be better with type only bans.

There is this disconnect that ive felt(and im almost sure others have felt) between the council and the community. We want you, council, to make this teir enjoyable and somewhat balanced aigain. and you reply that you cant do so because smogon. Then decide wether or not we, as a player base, mean something to you. because it sure as H*** dosent look like you give crap.
 
Considering the council were the ones who voted for these bans to be put in in the first place and now for them to basically just tell us we have to deal with it, you argue that were better with them but we shouldn't have them? if you felt we were better with them then surely you would argue the points as to why to smogon. each type is sort of like its own meta game some things are better in one type than another plus you say it applies to the 18 it really isn't though as its only a select handful of pokemon. The way that your telling us to just go join PO because the council decided without consulting the community that we're doing this feels like you think your above us, i know that may not be the case but that's how it comes across to me. I genuinely don't believe the council should get as much hate as they do but this is the kind of thing that generates it, you made a decision to change the tier without the communities input and now we're vocal of our dislike your just telling us to take it, it puts across the idea that you don't care about the community which is why people hate as they're feeling betrayed by it all.(Sorry i keep editing this)
 
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Just started laddering today after some vacation days (my first laddering post mega sableye ban) and all was well until I found the first monopsychic teams.
The situation is awful and something must be done about psychic ASAP. Here what I have seen:

- Mega medicham seems to have replaced mega gardevoir like the main mega on psychic. With no mega sableye anymore megacham can shine (regular sableye isn't near close a threat to psychics)

- The other 5 of the dream team (hoopa u, victini, mew, slowbro, latios) are still all there, sometimes jirachi replacing mew.

Now, having in mind mega gardevoir was at least stopped by some spe defensive walls, now the situation is psychic having 1 physical wallbreaker (mega medicham), 1 mixed wall breaker (hoopa u) and victini, which even if it dont have the offenses of the others 2, it have V Create, the most powerful move in the game to back it up. Most teams don't have the tanking abilities to stomach all those hits.
Not only that, with mega medicham psychic gains a very welcome (double) priority. And finally there is the slowbro/mew backbone which we all know.

I'm not sure if mega medicham is the problem, it was always the prefered mega on fighting and never caused so much problems. Maybe hoopa u was always the problem or maybe the defensive backbone of psychics make megacham perform better on them.

Tl;dr: the situation is awful
 
I don't see what's wrong in dividing the tier in 18 "mini-tiers", with each type representing a mini-tier with its own clauses. If someone wants to use a type, he or she could simply check the banned Pokémon of said type and build the team accordingly. After all, not many people know the whole banlist by heart even in this current state, and that is even less for players who play in other tiers as well, so it's not like easier lists would make their job necessarily easier. Maybe a bit more, yes, but anyone would keep checking the list just in case, diminishing the need to have a "simpler" list. Besides, in case said players wonder why a type is banned in a type and not in another, they could get said answers from the community, either through messages, the Q&A thread or on Showdown.

I mean, we could very well have in the OP something like this:

Clauses:
• Standard OU Clauses
• Same Type Clause: Pokémon in a team must share a type.

Pokémon Banlist (for individual type)
• All Types:


• Bug:
N/A
• Dark:


• Dragon:
N/A
• Electric: N/A
• Fairy:


• Fighting:
N/A
• Fire: N/A
• Flying:


• Ghost:
N/A
• Grass:

• Ground:


• Ice:
N/A
• Normal:


• Poison:


• Psychic:


• Rock:
N/A
• Steel:


• Water:

Items

• Damp Rock
• Soul Dew
• Smooth Rock
I think that could be relatively easy to comprehend, even for newer players.

However, if Type Bans really can't be applied, then what about creating a sort of different metagame where said Type Bans are allowed? A sort of Balanced Monotype or something like that, in the same vein of Hackmons and Balanced Hackmons. In this way, people who want to follow the "Smogon-endorsed" metagame can play regular Monotype, while people who want something more different and varied could opt for Balanced Monotype. This could be a win-win situation, in which players choose how they want to play.
 
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As a preface, in the opening post of this thread, it clearly states:
Special note: This thread is for metagame discussion, not tiering philosophy discussion. If you would like to propose a policy change then please start a private message with the members of the Monotype council. If the council would like to field general discussion on the tiering philosophy then it will make a post requesting input from the community.
So if you wish to discuss a policy change (in this case type-bans), then reread that paragraph and consider where that should be done before posting your proposals and concerns in the incorrect areas.

There seems to be this belief that aligning ourselves with Smogon by doing away with type-bans has not brought any tangible good to the community. There are complaints that the average player has nothing to gain from Smogon, as if we deserve to gain anything inherently in the first place. I've heard these complaints on these forums and on multiple Pokemon Showdown servers from even respected members of the community. This is completely untrue though. Being a part of the Smogon community has given us many privileges that we can use as a community together.

1. Monotype has its own subforum and our own public room on Pokemon Showdown. We can host countless projects, countless tournaments, and have multiple discussion threads all easily accessible thanks to both of these. It's easier to link to different posts, easier to navigate to desired locations, and easier to communicate. This allows the community to grow together and expand while sharing information between ourselves. We can have a separate thread for specifically discussing suspects, where in the past the main thread would slowly get more cluttered with posts. In all, this is a substantial quality of life change for the community. Every member of the community can thoroughly appreciate these benefits for just how much easier it is to interact with one another for all sorts of purposes. Certainly we can host projects, host tournaments, and discuss in megathreads and clutter up the OMs room if we didn't have this subforum and our own room, but that is far from ideal compared to what we have now.

2. Monotype now is also part of Smogon Contributions & Corrections. We've only been a part of C&C for one month but many people are already contributing and several analyses are already on the Smogon website. By being a part of official C&C, we can more easily provide information to newcomers about the Pokemon in our metagame. This is amazing for helping the new players because many of them are already used to using the Smogon website to find Pokemon they wish to learn more about. Furthermore, we can have well-reviewed and good analyses about Pokemon, which is a sign of our growth and maturity as a community. The mini-analyses that we were originally trying to work on was a much more difficult project to manage and was not nearly as successful as we already are in our first month with the official C&C forums. Sure, experienced players may not need to look at these analyses for help, but these are invaluable for expanding our community and assisting any new player who wants to enjoy the metagame we all love. At the risk of sounding cliche: "A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

I'm not saying that having type-bans would have prevented us from having these benefits. Our community was growing and expanding fast and we eventually probably needed to have our own space to keep up. But, I know that right now we are a real part of the Smogon community because we follow their rules and their philosophy. It helps that Smogon is the competitive Pokemon community and our numbers grow significantly from having exposure here. We've been given so much by being a part of Smogon and to claim otherwise is simply incredibly ungrateful.

And as a sales pitch, why not appreciate what they have graciously given us and give back to the community?
 
So much for getting to bed before midnight for once lol

Re: Hoopa-U. We suspected it, as has been said. It was found not to be broken, and remains unbanned. The council considered suspecting it again shortly before the recent mSab suspect, but narrowly decided that because there weren't really any new arguments for a ban that it didn't require another suspect.

Re: Type bans.
The meta is better with type bans, but we shouldn't have them. I know many of you have read that sentence and now think either that I'm insane or simply not qualified to be on the council, but hear me out - this decision really comes down to the wider Smogon tiering philosophy, and there's good reasons to abide by it.
The idea behind smogon tiering is that as little as possible is changed from the games while making the game highly competitive. In other words, there's a list of banned pokemon and a few mechanics are looked at (e.g. sleep clause) in order to make the games fun, but in general as little is changed as possible - if you want to get into the game it's very easy as you just look at the list of banned pokemon and don't use them, but that's more an added bonus than the reason it's done this way. The reason it's done this way is (in extremely basic terms) that you have to draw the line somewhere if you don't want a meta where lv.72 mega rayquaza is allowed but lv.73 mega rayquaza is banned, and the simpler something is the better. If you want to argue over this general policy then feel free to PM me about it and I'll explain the idea in more detail, but this isn't the thread for it.
But, I hear you shout, what about those highly complex bans Smogon has implemented such as Baton Pass clause, Endless Battle Clause or Aldaron's Proposal? Well, consider this: the ideas behind them are still very simple. Baton Pass clause is as close to saying "you can't use bp chains" as you can get that a battle sim can really enforce. Similarly, if two people agreed "let's not try to force an endless battle to get the opponent to forfeit" then you wouldn't need a complex system, but showdown can't implement a gentleman's agreement so it uses complex-looking rules that really just boil down to a very simple idea.
Type-only bans are more complex than this at heart. They aren't implementing a simple idea. They're making a simple idea - the banlist - complex, in effect you have to look at 18 lists to see what's legal rather than just one list. And thus, it goes against Smogon's idea of simplicity far more than the other complex bans that have been implemented.

So no, we won't be reintroducing type bans while we're still part of Smogon. Feel free to join Pokemon Online though, I hear they banned Drought lol
Well Articuno thanks for clearing up the council's opinion because to be frank, when I returned from a few months inactivity one of the first questions that came through my head was "What the fuck caused these lads to get rid of typebans?" and the other inquiry of "How did Hoopa U not get banned?". But now after hearing your opinions, I believe that it is time for me to enforce my own.

Hoopa U: I'm gonna make this short cause frankly, the type I use is probably one of the only ones that isn't intimidated by the new gains in psychic and dark usage and on a competitive level I don't really care if it's banned too much. As such I shall try to rebuke the "save Hoopa U argument" (that I've seen 0 noncouncil members ever use) with a much more objective view. When I came back to ps a few weeks ago and asked about the no-ban I got all very similar responses, all of which seemed to promote the exact same thing: people wanted this shit out of the tier. With responses along the lines of "All the psy users got people to vote against the ban and then immediately regret it", I literally found 0 responses that promoted the idea that it shouldn't have been banned. Although you said that there aren't any new arguments, I feel that it should also be noted that all of the old arguments are still 100% relative. When I join battles I see comments along the lines of "this is basically another genesect" being used. Hoopa U is incredibly versatile and all the coverage and blabla, if you wanted to hear all the magic this thing can do then go read another post because I'm willing to bet that it's been said too many times to count.

Type-Bans: As quoted by a every fella I know-"The meta is better with type bans..."-believe me nothing else he said was worth reading. Anyways it is well known that there's a list of banned pokemon and a few mechanics are looked at (e.g. sleep clause) in order to make the games fun, some of which fall into the "complex ban" category where an idea that is harder to follow is enforced in order to help create a more fair, fun, and balanced metagame. Now as far as I'm concerned, the only problem that there seems to be in regard to these type-only bans is the fact that they're "making a simple idea complex". This idea does not make sense. If I wanted to play monotype I would be forced to check the banlist on the monotype page, would a common player know that smooth rock is banned? Would they know that Lando is allowed whereas pokemon in bl such as mega altaria are not? No. And this is not a official tier, nor will it ever be. Monotype has it's own bans separate from standard, a very unique viability table, and a highly unbalanced metagame that was forced to separate from "oumonotype" due to the way it is set up. As a result of this, the tier was tested again and again to try and find what will work with the metagame, any new player would be forced to search up the rules even without a type-only ban and I feel that each type should be treated with isolation from one another, if it's op on one type it's not necessarily op on another. And right now I can hear all you council members screaming "it goes against Smogon's tiering philosophy!!!" or "They're making a simple idea - the banlist - complex". Well here's a simple idea, monotype should have its own tiering philosophy.

Edit: Soz Eien you I just saw your post about the "no philosophy" after i made this. My b
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
So, Articuno I and Eien hit most of the key points. Read their posts. They're correct and highlight most of the important points.

I want to add on to some of the points they made though. Many of you want tangible benefits for being a part of Smogon, or rather you don't seem to think we actually gain anything from it. Aside from all the stuff listed by my fellow council members I want to direct you to some other things that many of you might not be aware of.

Smogon has 42,000+ people that follow it on Twitter and 300,000 more people that "like" it on Facebook. Being a part of Smogon means we can advertise things through these forums. For lack of a better term, that is a metric shit-ton of people that we can reach.

For example, they announce our new analyses on their strategy dex, our suspect tests, and any articles we contribute to The Flying Press.

There is nothing, and I really mean nothing, else we can do to get more people to realize Monotype exists and try it out. We are also a part of Smogon's battling simulator, Pokemon Showdown. We're even one of the most popular rooms there, only eclipsed by their Lobby and flagship tier on a consistent basis.

I hate to say this, but if you don't like how the council implements the philosophies that made Smogon successful while running a community that utilizes their resources (forums, simulator, tournaments, media, etc.), then there are other competitive Pokemon communities for you to join.

We'd love for everyone to stay, though. Moreover, we want your input on how to make the metagame better—that is what this thread exists for!

However, we're not creating complex bans. Specifically, we're not going back to type bans. I don't care if PU wanted to ban dynamic punch or if the implementation of the baton pass clause is stupidly complex. There are other metagame leaders that opted to go with that. It is their problem. I (and I think I speak for the majority of the council when I say this) don't want Monotype to abandon the philosophy that got us to where we are.

Now, obviously some of you aren't happy with the metagame and it seems Hoopa-U is at the center of this? There was a 50/50 split in the voting during the last suspect. Those of you that voted not to ban it, has your opinion changed? If so, what changed it?

edit: I'm not going to go through and delete all the posts that talk about the tiering philosophy, despite the fact we explicitly ask for that topic not to be discussed here. Please feel free to discuss Hoopa-U in a polite manner, though.
 
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Going onto the topic of Hoopa-U, I personally don't see a need to re-suspect it. Why? Well, granted, I wasn't for it being banned in the first place, but the main thing is, similar to what scp said, I don't see any new arguments about it to give it the reason to. No 1 type (besides Ghost) is honestly threatened by it. Personally, I see it as a plus to the metagame. It's a wallbreaker, its job is to break walls (and that includes less fatty mons). It's a no brainer why it has limited switchins. However, that being said, that by no means means it is broken. It has very underwhelming speed, and without a Choice Scarf, I don't see much sweeping going on with it (even with Scarf, a lot of common scarfers outspeed it). It also has a poor defense stat, allowing it to be almost easily revenge killed by common priority.

Back to its pluses as to why I see it beneficial for the metagame, take this example. According to the basic type chart, Psychic naturally has a disadvantage to Steel teams. That is because Steel resists Psychic, which is an elementary concept that almost everyone knows. That fact holds true in their matchups to an extent. If you think about it, Victini offensively does threaten it, but they do have Heatran (which Victini can't do very much to), as well as Bisharp (which very much so threatens Psychic as a whole). Hoopa's Steelbreaker set now allows Psychic to have a good win con against the type, balancing the matchup (to the point where it isn't scewed much in either directions). It would really depend on how you play (ex, finding the right time to sub Hoopa. being able to save Heatran/Bisharp as much as possible, ect). Though Psychic is a top tier type right now, with Hoopa booted, is that gonna change that fact, or really benefit anything that Hoopa threatened? No, not really. Ghost unfortunately does has seldom usage, and almost never seen on high ladder due to that, and nothing else is excruciatingly threatened by it as it is. Not to mention, Dark would lose 1 of its 2 best Fighting checks, which I see as a subtraction to our metagame.

~----------------------------------------------------------------------~​

Before I close this up, I wanted to chime in on this type ban thing, because it is getting out of hand. Our council, who has worked very very hard to get to where we are, deserves a lot more respect than some of you have been giving. If you haven't noticed, having our own sub forum is huge, so we have the ability to run lots more mono based projects, tournaments, and community events! Being able to finally participate in C&C is also amazing! This really shows our progress, and I don't know if you some of you realize it or not, but Scp and the council have been working tirelessly to work us up to this point, and as I can imagine forward further. They even said they would be more than happy to talk to anyone about as to why we adopted the tiering philosophy we have. If the council wasn't for us, I'd imagine they wouldn't be doing all of this. Though I have just been promoted to staff, I've been enjoying it a ton, but I've been seeing lately first hand on the respect we often receive, council members especially, on stuff like this, and this explosion of discussion is no exception.

Tl;Dr My thoughts on Hoopa-U/The council deserves much more respect than they have been recieving. I can understand that perhaps not being able to have type bans may be a dismay to some of you, but this is no way to go about it.

Thank you
 
Just like to write a small comment on Dece1t's thoughts on Hoopa-U.

While it IS true that Hoopa-U has low defenses and isn't actually too fast without a Choice Scarf, it is important to note that a LOT of Monotypes lack U-turn, and that aside from said U-turn basically any physical move is being tanked by the incoming Slowbro, except for Knock Off, which once again not all types have access to.

Aside from that, and I believe this is important, lately Hoopa-U has begun running Substitute more commonly, which makes it incredibly hard to revenge kill considering that if it came in, it's likely forcing you to switch out inmediatly. After that, you're likely gonna have to sack a mon just to break Hoopa's sub.
 
I think one of the viable reasons why Hoopa-U re-suspect could be a possibility would be the community’s mindset when it was banned. If some of you guys don’t remember, during Hoopa-U suspect Monotype Council decided to ban Aegislash and leave the Type-Ban policy behind. If you go to the Hoopa-U suspect discussion thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-hoopa-unbound-suspect.3566368/) you will see most of the people saying “Is it worth it to ban it since it will cripple dark. Why can’t we just ban it on Psychic”. Like in the Mega-Sableye situation the discussion shouldn’t really be like that if we are going to follow the new policies.

What comes to my own thoughts: On Dark its forced to run scarf which makes it easily revege killable, but its the unpredictability and freedom to run anything on psychic that makes it a force to be reckon with. You can basicly choose what type to counter with it(steel breaker and etc).

Do i think its broken? Not really. From my own experiences it can be checked. But i do think it deserves a good discussion by the council and maybe a vote for a suspect if you guys feel like thats needed.

EDIT: I do think we should wait for a while before re-suspecting it though.
 
Laddered for MLT, 10/10 would never ladder again.

Anyways, what I've noticed, and what everyone is saying that Psychic is one of the best, if not the best, type in the metagame right now due to so many reasons. Psychic has access to a plethora of Pokemon that are good enough to warrant a usage on such teams, making that type kind of diverse, unpredictable, being able to explore many builds. Psychic has also access to great Mega Evolutions which makes their matchup against their weaknesses, or generally the metagame, better. But what seems being the problem for the community isn't its versatility, nor its access to great Mega Evolutions, but the fact it has access to Hoopa-U. This Pokemon is the reason Psychic is overpowered in other's opinion? Which really seems flawed in many ways. Hoopa-U is a great wallbreaker, I can't deny it but Hoopa-U being broken? I don't really think so. Per instance, Hoopa-U is the icing on the top of the cake for Psychic whether it is banned or not Psychic will continue its reign.

As a singular Pokemon, Hoopa-U is frail, has a crippling 4x weakness to bug which obviously both Psychic- and Dark-types teams don't like, it has a lackluster speed stat and often is forced to run Choice Scarf which is the main set. Following the tiering philosophy, Hoopa-U does NOT threaten any type directly, unlike other banned Pokemon such as Talonflame, and Mega Sableye, every type has an answer for it, I don't really see Hoopa-U pressure a lot of types bar Ghost which is already pressured by other Pokemon, and types anyways. Hoopa-U's scarf set is predictable, and can always be revenge killed, or walled on both Psychic and Dark. But the possibility of it running other sets on Psychic is what troubles everyone, but I don't really see what's the problem? Pokemon in Monotype is ten times more predictable than in OU. Psychic needs to run a Hoopa-U set which will allow it to cope with its weaknesses, the opponent just needs a turn to figure out which set Hoopa-U is running since it's locked into a specific moveset in Monotype, what's the reason for Dark to run Drain Punch over Gunk Shot? Another point from the philosophy is the perception about what this Pokemon add or subtract from the metagame. Hoopa-U being banned subtract from the metagame, and doesn't add anything. Psychic will always stay on the top, while dark will drown in.

Also I'll be deleting posts that attacks directly the council, so please don't.
 
Hoopa U is a huge threat that is undeniable, however the pokemon I currently find to be a pain is Mew, having a base 100 stat total across the board with a pure psychic typing is amazing in a meta like ours. It has the ability to speed creep many pokemon e.g it can run 240 speed to creep adamant bisharp or go one up on that to take on those things that speed creep the base 241, but it can go higher than that going as far as to creep Jolly Bisharp and and even going as far as for some to speed creep Jolly Gyarados and due to Mew's high Base HP its overall bulk is still very high despite this creep. These stats are further backed by Mew's expansive support movepool, Stealth Rocks, Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, Taunt, Roost and Heal Bell. This leaves us with a stubborn pokemon that can outspeed and burn most of the bulkier physical attackers of the tier which can turn some matchups into a simple game of the opponent missing willo, One recent example of mine is normal, Band Diggersby and Specs meloetta are the two main ways normal wall breaks and both are pretty easily neutered by mew, Meloetta stands taller vs mew admittedly
252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Mew: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Mew Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 156-184 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO
Meloetta has a chance to 2HKO mew with timid specs shadowball of course this is on the presumption that mew stays in, mew cannot switch in on mew but if its melo coming in on mew things go down different as without a solid OHKO mew if free to knock off or it can switch into hoopa u or their own meloetta. Mew achieves a similiar damage output to the opposing meloetta. Diggersby on the otherhand has it worse, being outsped by the standardly crept Mew and burned completely shuts it down as a wall breaker by effectively removing Huge Power, Mew is capable of outhealing the Jolly diggersby's Knock Off after a burn leaving the only way for it to break down mew is to be in before mew or hope willo misses.
But it's not like Mew struggles to switch in on normal, its only 3HKO from both Mega's strongest attacks against it and it can come in on the eviolite core, add to this the fact your already playing around Hoopa-U and Medi who are more easily beaten than mew but equally as threatening you have yourself a less than even matchup.
But lets move on from normal what about steel, steel doesn't have the greatest time against mew either as once Heatran goes down nothing can really deal with skarm, the physical attackers are burned the special attackers get out recovered skarm gets taunted, only heatran truly stands to it still loses out to the likes of medi and slowbro. Hoopa-U can kill steel yes but its more easily checked than mew is from what I've seen, In terms of adding to the meta i dont see what mew adds, its main role can be dished out to the likes of deoxys in hazard setting and knock off and a lati twin in the removal of hazards, even spreading burns can be done by the likes of gardevoir, whereas hoopa-U does have that unpredictability it adds to dark in giving it a useful check to fairies notably scarf togekiss, mega-gardevoir and whimiscott while also giving dark a solid check to Sub CM keldeo.

Maybe its just me struggling idk but i have heard some others express mew as a pain and others may be able to weigh in better than me but as a whole I feel mew may be worth looking at in place of hoopa given how the council recently decided it was to soon to suspect hoopa
 
Well, personally I was never much of a fan of the argument of "just figure out hoopa-u's set!!!" because (on Psychic) Hoopa-U has all the team support it needs to not have to use a specific set all the time, like what happens in Dark.

For example, Psychic's Hoopa-U is free to choose between Energy Ball, Drain Punch, Thunderbolt, HP Fire, Dark Pulse, Both Hyperspaces, Gunk Shot, Sub and others to pick.
Even if one figures out what set it is, the truth is that for most types that just means you know what to sack against it, since a huge majority of the types don't have a clear cut "counter" to Hoopa-U. Even if we're assuming it's Scarf and not Band, Life Orb or Leftovers, the truth is unless you have the likes of Porygon2 or Mandibuzz (If it lacks tbolt) you will still have to sack a Pokemon to ATTEMPT to revenge kill Hoopa-U. (Assuming that neither of the bulky walls on Psychic's core won't just switch in on your attack)
 

truedrew

Banned deucer.
WELL GUESS WHO IS JOINING THE HYPE TRAIN ON BROKEN MONS?~! YOUR BOY MR STEEL YO GIRLLLL

Jokes aside im here to propose a suspect test on a pokemon that in my opinion has avoided the limelight due to the absurd amount of balancing that has happened in the past few months (Shoutouts hoopa, mega sab mega sab, some other stuff)

The pokemon is Mega Gyarados.
Mega Gdos is a bulky set up sweeper that can DD and clean so many types its stupid. it can run a variety of sets depending on both the team comp and team type (flying vs water it can do amazing things on both types) but what i find the most broken is bulky dd rest talk with crunch as this can beat all types apart from fighting and electric

Speaking from personal experience as a normal main of decent caliber i can only attest to how abnoxious a well played mega gdos is as it has fairly low counter play apart from rocks and correct doubles aka don't give it a free turn
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Can we at least suspect hoopa again? Sable got a second suspect, i don't know why hoopa shouldn't. Maybe it isn't broken, but the voters should have a chance to state their opinion at least.
 
Can we at least suspect hoopa again? Sable got a second suspect, i don't know why hoopa shouldn't. Maybe it isn't broken, but the voters should have a chance to state their opinion at least.
Mega Sableye was suspected another time because new arguments were found and one of the reasons that it wasn't banned for the first time it's because users ''Didn't want to hurt ghost'', on another hand no new solid arguments are formed against Hoopa-U, so why?
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Mega Sableye was suspected another time because new arguments were found and one of the reasons that it wasn't banned for the first time it's because users ''Didn't want to hurt ghost'', on another hand no new solid arguments are formed against Hoopa-U, so why?
Funny thing is, i go to the hoopa suspect thread, and one of the first posts talks about how banning hoopa will kill dark. And it has 27 upvotes, so i am assuming some people listened to that argument. So have i satisfied your standards? Seems like this is EXACTLY what you were looking for. So unless you were lying, i expect the hoopa suspect test up this week.
(Post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-hoopa-unbound-suspect.3566368/#post-6694404)
 
Funny thing is, i go to the hoopa suspect thread, and one of the first posts talks about how banning hoopa will kill dark. And it has 27 upvotes, so i am assuming some people listened to that argument. So have i satisfied your standards? Seems like this is EXACTLY what you were looking for. So unless you were lying, i expect the hoopa suspect test up this week.
(Post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-hoopa-unbound-suspect.3566368/#post-6694404)
That's because in this post it's shown that removing Hoopa-U would ''subtract'' from the meta more than it would ''add'', unlike Mega Sableye which is one of the guidelines in the philosophy. But feel free to give your opinion.

Now, obviously some of you aren't happy with the metagame and it seems Hoopa-U is at the center of this? There was a 50/50 split in the voting during the last suspect. Those of you that voted not to ban it, has your opinion changed? If so, what changed it?
 
I'll be honest and say I would have voted no ban on Hoopa-U in that suspect though that was a time where I wasn't in to laddering much so didn't get the reqs and i get that in admitting this it may take away from what I'm about to say but I'll say it anyway.
The reason I would not have banned Hoopa-U is that I felt it would take away from dark, it's scarf was of alot of use for Dark teams giving them a fast mon to come in and check certain fairies but also backing Hyperspace Hole to break through Sub Keldeo which is arguably its major role on dark.
More recently dark lost M-Sab and this i feel is the thing that has changed, Dark now has a variety of Megas it can use that in theory can help deal with keldeo such as Mega Sharpedo having the option to run Zen Headbutt, Mega Doom with his higher base speed although the matchup is less than favourable and finally Mega Absol who while largely unused has a higher base speed with Play Rough. The final thing to have changed is the fact normal Sableye is there are now reasons to run normal sableye, the spdef prankster set is capable of avoiding 2hko vs an unboosted keldeo while taunting and will-o wisp whittling it down. So that is kinda what i feel has changed my mind, on hoopa-u i kind of feel we've reached a point with it similar to how genesect would be in this current meta, yes dark appreciates Hoopa-U but it could function without it whereas on psy it can be an overwhelming presence trying to deal with it and the other mons.
That is my opinion on it, it may not be worth much in the grand scheme and I may have not explained as well as i could have so take it as you will
 
I'll be honest and say I would have voted no ban on Hoopa-U in that suspect though that was a time where I wasn't in to laddering much so didn't get the reqs and i get that in admitting this it may take away from what I'm about to say but I'll say it anyway.
The reason I would not have banned Hoopa-U is that I felt it would take away from dark, it's scarf was of alot of use for Dark teams giving them a fast mon to come in and check certain fairies but also backing Hyperspace Hole to break through Sub Keldeo which is arguably its major role on dark.
More recently dark lost M-Sab and this i feel is the thing that has changed, Dark now has a variety of Megas it can use that in theory can help deal with keldeo such as Mega Sharpedo having the option to run Zen Headbutt, Mega Doom with his higher base speed although the matchup is less than favourable and finally Mega Absol who while largely unused has a higher base speed with Play Rough. The final thing to have changed is the fact normal Sableye is there are now reasons to run normal sableye, the spdef prankster set is capable of avoiding 2hko vs an unboosted keldeo while taunting and will-o wisp whittling it down. So that is kinda what i feel has changed my mind, on hoopa-u i kind of feel we've reached a point with it similar to how genesect would be in this current meta, yes dark appreciates Hoopa-U but it could function without it whereas on psy it can be an overwhelming presence trying to deal with it and the other mons.
That is my opinion on it, it may not be worth much in the grand scheme and I may have not explained as well as i could have so take it as you will
Uh, why would Mega Sableye being banned change your opinion and what does that have to do with Hoopa-U? When Mega Sableye was around no one was forcing it into dark users and other Mega Evolutions could be used, so that doesn't change anything. Also how is Hoopa-U comparable to Genesect? Genesect has a better defensive typing, better coverage, U-turn, download and more speed.
 
It changed my opinion after it opened up the variety on dark, I'm aware no one was forced to run M-Sab i myself didnt run it but it was in most cases the more superior mega was sableye. My comparison was more on the types, like genesect would be useful to bug but it manages without it just as dark could, where as on its other type of steel and psy respectively it can be a little to much to handle
 
Uh, why would Mega Sableye being banned change your opinion and what does that have to do with Hoopa-U? When Mega Sableye was around no one was forcing it into dark users and other Mega Evolutions could be used, so that doesn't change anything. Also how is Hoopa-U comparable to Genesect? Genesect has a better defensive typing, better coverage, U-turn, download and more speed.
Sableye will very clearly change everyone's view on the Hoopa ban because now a precident has bee set. The arguments may not have changed but the way this meta thinks has changed greatly. Before you could argue that banning Hoopa would hurt dark. Now you cannot because that is no longer relevant. Your post above saying it helps dark is irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is that it is broken and/or subtracts from the mets by being on either dark or psychic.

And for a mon suspected so soon before this concept before this argument was introduced, and having its arguments on how it would kill dark no longer being valid, it deserves a suspect.

Also, I noticed that comment from someone earlier, something like "it doesn't break any type, except ghost of course".

Nice to know ghost matters less and less around here
 
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