Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Alexis Breeze]

With your ice comment, at least scizor can be checked, specs lapras ans walrein do kill it. Genesect however outspeeds every mon thanks to scarf, so it's very very difficult to keep in check. As for Heracross, Avalugg can revenge kill it so long as you save it and keep it'd health up. So ice users do have a right to say genesect crushes ice. Period.

Ice player here. I agree with zane actually. Scizor is free win vs Ice. Someone with decent GXE will weaken your checks before Scizor can sweep. U-turn vs Walrein and now Walrein can't check him again. Add in SR and things are a nightmare (good bug users will win the pressure war, I play bug as well). It's Scizor then Volcarona then Genesect. Only thing is Volcarona *can* be revenge killed by scarf Phys Kyu-B or scarf Mamo while the bug/steel pokes have great typing against anything Ice has.

I've acquired the reqs now using basically just Ice and Bug. For my bug team I didn't use Genesect and it was fine tbh. I honestly don't know what's the point of having Genesect in this meta. It doesn't "help" Bug as a type, Bug doesn't need a lot of help imo. I've beaten Flying with Genesectless Bug plenty of times, it's just harder which should be given the matchup disadvantage. IMO you could ban Gene and Bug would still do well. Banning Pinsir for the sake of "nerfing" Bug is ridiculous seriously.

Bug is currently popular because it has great, straight forward mons that cover most of their weaknesses offensively (which is the preferred style on PS just by pace alone, like people prefer running HO than balance or stall probably cuz matches take less time, who knows):
- Scizor decimates Ice, Steel and to a lesser extent Rock (which should have an advantage versus Bug)
- Heracross can sweep Normal with Moxie Scarf if played right, helps adding pressure versus Steel, rk Fire mons, against Dark can either clean once Sableye is gone OR can break him with a Guts Band set.
- Mega Hera destroy balanced teams, mostly Water and Normal from my experience
- Mega Pinsir rapes Grass, Fighting by itself and plays a huge role on the mirror (otherwise Scarf Hera can sweep)
- Galvantula is usually MVP versus Water and it's very useful versus Flying (again a supposedly negative matchup)
- Genesect can be tuned to beat Flying, Ground, Water, Bug, Ice, Grass. This one should be obvious
- Offensive Scolipede can sweep Fire and Psychic

This is without mentioning good support like access to all hazards available (including viable users for Sticky Web), access to Rapid Spin (a must) and Baton Pass Scolipede into Mega Hera or Volcarona (Iron Defense) among others.

If you know what you are doing you are essentially reverting matchup advantages to your favor based on one of your mons. I wouldn't say Bug is the best type but its learning curve for someone decent is super friendly.

For the people still trying to argue that Pinsir creates autowins, is not that the mon is broken. This gen Flying as an attack type is ridiculously strong. Most people don't run Rock (cuz it sucks) and Steel is easy to cover.

 

[Dece1t]

Ice player here. I agree with zane actually. Scizor is free win vs Ice. Someone with decent GXE will weaken your checks before Scizor can sweep. U-turn vs Walrein and now Walrein can't check him again. Add in SR and things are a nightmare (good bug users will win the pressure war, I play bug as well). It's Scizor then Volcarona then Genesect. Only thing is Volcarona *can* be revenge killed by scarf Phys Kyu-B or scarf Mamo while the bug/steel pokes have great typing against anything Ice has.

I've acquired the reqs now using basically just Ice and Bug. For my bug team I didn't use Genesect and it was fine tbh. I honestly don't know what's the point of having Genesect in this meta. It doesn't "help" Bug as a type, Bug doesn't need a lot of help imo. I've beaten Flying with Genesectless Bug plenty of times, it's just harder which should be given the matchup disadvantage. IMO you could ban Gene and Bug would still do well. Banning Pinsir for the sake of "nerfing" Bug is ridiculous seriously.

Bug is currently popular because it has great, straight forward mons that cover most of their weaknesses offensively (which is the preferred style on PS just by pace alone, like people prefer running HO than balance or stall probably cuz matches take less time, who knows):
- Scizor decimates Ice, Steel and to a lesser extent Rock (which should have an advantage versus Bug)
- Heracross can sweep Normal with Moxie Scarf if played right, helps adding pressure versus Steel, rk Fire mons, against Dark can either clean once Sableye is gone OR can break him with a Guts Band set.
- Mega Hera destroy balanced teams, mostly Water and Normal from my experience
- Mega Pinsir rapes Grass, Fighting by itself and plays a huge role on the mirror (otherwise Scarf Hera can sweep)
- Galvantula is usually MVP versus Water and it's very useful versus Flying (again a supposedly negative matchup)
- Genesect can be tuned to beat Flying, Ground, Water, Bug, Ice, Grass. This one should be obvious
- Offensive Scolipede can sweep Fire and Psychic

This is without mentioning good support like access to all hazards available (including viable users for Sticky Web), access to Rapid Spin (a must) and Baton Pass Scolipede into Mega Hera or Volcarona (Iron Defense) among others.

If you know what you are doing you are essentially reverting matchup advantages to your favor based on one of your mons. I wouldn't say Bug is the best type but its learning curve for someone decent is super friendly.

For the people still trying to argue that Pinsir creates autowins, is not that the mon is broken. This gen Flying as an attack type is ridiculously strong. Most people don't run Rock (cuz it sucks) and Steel is easy to cover.

I do agree with you, but, if your opponent is smart, they are more than likely gonna save scizor for the sweep against an ice team. That being said, lapras, and more so Walrein specs are pretty powerful, so let's say the scizor either switches out, or u turns to a mon ready to take an oncoming hp fire, for example, armaldo or volcarona, if you can make that predict, surf/hydro is gonna hit them ridiculously hard. Your main thing to focus on would be to save walrein help sp you can still soft check scizor. Genesect (which can outspeed every viable mon on ice, if scarfed) is what makes the situation shitty, and harder to play around, along with scizor on top of that, and even heracross as well which can be checked to an extent with avalugg.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

If my point wasn't clear regarding Genesect, why is it banned/considered broken on Steel but it's fine on Bug? IMO as a Dragon user too even without Genesect, Bug can still pull a Scizor sweep because Dragon has no Steel resist and it's a -for the most part- HO oriented type. CBScizor sweeps once Dnite is weaken to 60ish%, I doubt SD Scizor gets a chance to set up unless you come into a -2 scarfed Dragon or something

 

[Twix]

If my point wasn't clear regarding Genesect, why is it banned/considered broken on Steel but it's fine on Bug? IMO as a Dragon user too even without Genesect, Bug can still pull a Scizor sweep because Dragon has no Steel resist and it's a -for the most part- HO oriented type. CBScizor sweeps once Dnite is weaken to 60ish%, I doubt SD Scizor gets a chance to set up unless you come into a -2 scarfed Dragon or something

Genesect is banned on Steel due to its astounding support from Heatran and other stally Pokemon, where Bug is more oriented towards Hyper Offense. Dragon has a couple of ways of taking on Scizor including Defensive Garchomp or Fire Blast / Hidden Power Fire on Pokemon such as Latios or Salamence. I don't actually understand what point you're trying to make in all honesty, but I hope you understand these points.

 

[ed wins]

I wouldn't be upset if we banned Mega Pinsir, but I'm honestly surprised you're defending Bug's viability. You're saying Bug depends on Genesect THAT much? You're saying if it weren't for Genesect, Flying would have a type advantage? Good. Bug is absurdly good right now and it desperately needs a nerf. If the type needs Genesect just because it makes beating Bug's weaknesses easy, that means it's a natural and logical choice to ban it. Since when is it a bad thing if Flying has an advantage over Bug? By the very nature of type matchups, Flying SHOULD have an advantage, but it doesn't and that's all because of one Pokemon. (as a side note, there are other cases where types should have an advantage and don't. Example: Electric vs Water/Flying. In those cases, it's due to much more than just one pokemon and the issue stems from the lack of viable pokemon on Electric, as opposed to one single pokemon tilting the entire matchup, such as the case with Genesect.)

As a Bug user, you have it incredibly good right now (too good if you ask me) and I hope you realize that. Genesect is a blessing to your type, but I don't think it should be a right. Bug is not going to suffer without Genesect. The type has access to so many good pokemon that I can't imagine it would suffer much even if you banned Mega Pinsir and Genesect together. Banning Genesect just brings it down to a more playable level.

While I do agree with you that Bug is incredibly potent at this time, I do not agree that all potent threats or types require a nerf. If a top rises to the top of the viability rankings, the meta itself will shift to handle that type.

To illustrate, lets look/hypothesize at how Bug has become the top type. Before the disappearance of Zapdos and ArVaDa from Flying, we saw that Psychic had steadily climbed in usage, reaching #3 behind Flying and Water. As soon as Flying got nerfed, Psychic reigned supreme as the most commonly used type with a useage of 9.41%. However, Bug users quickly caught on to the trend, and in that same month(April), Bug aquired the usage of 9.21. In March, Flying users learned about the cancer known as Mandibuzz, specially defensive Togekiss, and Tornadus-Therian, and Flying once again got moved up to #1 in usage, while Bug followed in second place, bumping Psychic down to third. The month after that, Bug reigned supreme, and knocked the usage of Flying and Psychic to #2 and #6 in usage, respectively. Fast forward one month later to July, and we see that Psychic spiked in usage and became #2(this can be attributed to Hoopa), only to become a shadow to Bug once more, which increased to a whopping 10.6% in usage.

When we look at the matchup table, we see that Bug has unbalanced matchups versus Steel, Fire, and Flying, but neutral or advantageous matchup against other types. Bug has incredible matchups against: Dark, Normal, Electric, Fairy, Ice, Grass, Dragon and Rock. Wow! No wonders that this type is becoming so popular

Against Dark, just about everything on Bug is a threat, so you cannot attribute this to Genesect.

Against Fairy, Ice, and Rock, you can bet that Scizor is responsible for this matchup, not Genesect.

Against Normal, you can attribute the match up to Heracross, not Genesect.

Against Electric, you can attribute the matchup to Volcarona, not Genesect.

Against Dragon.. OK. You caught me. Genesect is very much responsible for this one.

Finally, against Grass, I guess that you can finally blame Genesect for the matchup, but Volcarona and Pinsir destroy it as well, so it's almost an auto lose at team preview.

As we can see from STATISTICS, Genesect itself is not the problem versus most matchups, but rather, the incredible offensive prescence and coverage that the type offers. If you want to argue about removing Genesect from Bug, you should do so by shifting to the arguments of Bug no longer needing Genesect's presence, rather than saying that Genesect overpowers most types. However, with or without Genesect, Bug will still be incredibly dominant, so the meta itself has to shift regardless to accommodate this threat.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

I agree, top usage shouldn't resolve in a ban/nerf every three months we see a spike on a given type. Are we banning Mew if Psychic goes for two months in a row as #1?

Why don't people ladder with Fire? Only type that clearly has a type advantage vs Bug. I mean, if "one every three users" play Bug then you auto win vs 1/3 of the ladder.

 

[Fírnen]

Genesect isn't the next suspect because they have more unhealthy Pokémon than Genesect.
Little flashback: http://pastebin.com/cAaXkE7d .

Just make things step by step, from the most important to the less important.
Genesect isn't an autowin most of time.
People talk about scarf Ibeam, Eball for ground? Please, I love Ground and this is my favorite type but isn't Latios knows Ibeam and Eball? Just saying...


I prefer we keep talking about the current suspect, M-Altaria before him judgement instead talk about another Pokémon who isn't suspect atm.
Peace.

 

[Zar]

Well,If anyone wants to know why Fire usage was high in June and not in July is because,there was a Core Challenge that started at the end of June,which caused Fire to be used in ladder ^_^ But since it ended,Fire usage dropped again and due to the Hoopa-U coming out,People started trying that out more

I agree with most of these but u dont need defensive jirachi on psychic choice scarf works just as well. Also being an extreme problem for dragon teams as it it can flinch its way to victory usually.
I have to say with fire the combo of ballon tran with flash cannon and will o rotom h should be more then enough to check this mon and all variants of its sets. Working to preserve the ballon shouldnt be a huge issue.
Ive been on the good side of that 1v 6 flying match up so i know how that is. You need to be in a good position. Dragon enough said i agree 100%. Electric same thing alt+lando on flying blow it away. With darki find it alot more trouble some on flying bc flying can check weavile with skarm while dragon has no reall switch ins. I found the combo of mega sab sash bisharp and orb weavile a great way to keep hazards off the feild in both both matchs so that i can check alt effeciently ill provide replays later. If you can somehow break skarm on flyong i think weavile and bisharp become much more lethal in that matchup. I guess to some up my point while when u see this mon vs those types yes it can be a problem but with proper team preperation i think most of them can check it efficiently. Excluding maybe dragon and electric

Alright, So you're saying Rotom-H with WoW and AB Heatran should be more than enough for M-Altaria.But really,with the offensive pressure that Dragon has,It is practically impossible to preserve the AB on Heatran when M-Altaria comes out.With Latios/Kyurem-B running around throwing Draco Meteors and Outrages,You really have no option other than sending out Heatran.After taking a hit,Air Balloon is gone and M-Altaria can sweep.Now on Rotom-H,Yes WoW does help against M-Altaria.But Heal Bell variants make that tough as well not even counting the fact that M-Altaria can just dragon dance to +6 and still sweep EVEN with a burn.

 

[Acast]

As we can see from STATISTICS, Genesect itself is not the problem versus most matchups, but rather, the incredible offensive prescence and coverage that the type offers. If you want to argue about removing Genesect from Bug, you should do so by shifting to the arguments of Bug no longer needing Genesect's presence, rather than saying that Genesect overpowers most types.

I'm not saying Genesect is too good. I'm saying Bug as a type is too good and Genesect is the best way to nerf it.

I never said Genesect overpowers most types. In fact, if anyone does say that, I would have to disagree with them. I'm essentially already saying what you just told me to say. Anything that sounded like I was saying Genesect beats most types is probably a reply to Zane0144, who is making the argument that Genesect is needed on Bug teams to be viable, which just isn't true in the slightest.

In all honesty, I just want a Bug nerf. If it's determined that Mega Pinsir is the better choice to nerf Bug, I would be fine with banning that instead of Genesect. My first reaction is simply to ban the Uber that's only allowed on Bug teams, but just as long as we do something to prevent every 3rd team on the ladder from being Bug, I'll be happy.

 

[thesecondbest]

Bug doesn't necessarily need a nerf. Ground still has the highest win rate despite the nerf. I think usage just stems from the fact that people like using hyper offensive types. Victini hurts bug pretty hard. But I agree Fairy, Ice, and Rock have nothing for gene, and dark just has an awful matchup overall. In fact, steel and fairy even have higher win rates than bug, and flying is suprisingly low. Besides the awful types being awful (grass, rock, electric, poison, and ice) the meta is fairly balanced at the top.

 

[Zar]

I agree with thesecondbest in that people simply prefer HO types, which is why fighting is so high in usage as well.
I personally don't feel genesect is broken, I also don't feel m-pinsir is broken. I don't even feel bug needs a nerf. As someone (edwin iirc) said, the types will balance out. If it hits something insane like 50% usage, then I'll jump on the BANwagon.

That said, if we are staying with the nerf idea, I feel m-pinsir is the one that needs to go. Genesect covers a ton of bugs weaknesses, which is very very nice. Bug will definitely survive without it, but it's simply good to be able to fill holes in team. Then there's mega pinsir, which is a wincon against a few common types such as fighting. That mon is much closer to the state m-alt is at (it's still nowhere near though), where it creates a strong wincon against multiple types.

tl;dr dont ban anything on bug, but if you do, ban m-pinsir

I don't think you're understanding that usage means NOTHING in terms of determining if something is broken or not.

I'd like to point out that the reason Fighting has good usage on the usage stat is due it being based on ladder and Fighting is a good type in general and is nice to use in ladder.

Now on M-Pinsir,I've seen people saying it beats Grass/Fighting.Against Fighting,Cobalion and Terrakion are in my opinion enough for Pinsir.As Cobalion gets ThunderWave, it can take a hit and fire off a ThunderWave. While Terrakion still outspeeds M-Pinsir even after a Sticky Web as Choice Scarf is the most common set on Terrakion and can Stone Edge/Rock Slide it.

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 240-284 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 199-235 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While Grass on the other hand already is at a major disadvantage against Bug due to the offensive pressure from Bug.M-Pinsir only adds to that pressure. Even without M-Pinsir,Bug will still have the upper hand against Grass due to Volcarona/Heracross/Scizor.


But Genesect on the other hand is almost single handedly beating Flying which should beat Bug as an advantage. It is also creating problems for almost every other type (Except Fire) with its amazing move pool and great ability.


TL;DR Don't ban M-Pinsir

 

[thesecondbest]

Bug gets 6-0d by Zard, dislikes Victini, and since it's an HO type, it really can't afford to use walls for it. This means psychic and flying, two other dominant types, can deal with it. Ground has a good matchup unless genesect has energy ball ice beam, but camel hurts as does a speeding exca. It's not really broken.

 

[ed wins]

Bug gets 6-0d by Zard, dislikes Victini, and since it's an HO type, it really can't afford to use walls for it. This means psychic and flying, two other dominant types, can deal with it. Ground has a good matchup unless genesect has energy ball ice beam, but camel hurts as does a speeding exca. It's not really broken.

AV Armaldo, Scarf Heracross, and Durant beat Zard and Blue Flare Victini
Volcarona sets up Blue Flare Victini

Scarf, Vcreate Victini is the only issue, but that's an issue of counter play

I understand that you're not belittling the type, but it isn't 6-0d by random threats. If anything, heatran on steel is probably the biggest threat to bug

 

[Dece1t]

Bug gets 6-0d by Zard, dislikes Victini, and since it's an HO type, it really can't afford to use walls for it. This means psychic and flying, two other dominant types, can deal with it. Ground has a good matchup unless genesect has energy ball ice beam, but camel hurts as does a speeding exca. It's not really broken.

If you didn't notice, all fire mons :I

 

[thesecondbest]

If you didn't notice, all fire mons :I

But other types have access to them, and they are great as is. Victini is the most used psychic. Zard-X is the most used flying mega. Infernape has 60% usage on fighting. Scarf terrak slaughters bug too (I mean you can go into forretress but that mon is so passive). The top three types have extremely usable mons to beat bug, and steel has tran, as mentioned above. None of the top types have issues with bug.
Bug does not need a nerf, but Genesect as an individual mon is very solid and perhaps too good.

 

[ed wins]

Alright
So the Genesect discussion is finally over and we can finally move on to the suspect test discussion?

PS. If you want to troll Bug out of the ladder, just stagger the core challenges to have one unbalanced matchup for Bug or a core that trolls it just for laughs and giggles.

 

[ReuzeSmurf]

But other types have access to them, and they are great as is. Victini is the most used psychic. Zard-X is the most used flying mega. Infernape has 60% usage on fighting. Scarf terrak slaughters bug too (I mean you can go into forretress but that mon is so passive). The top three types have extremely usable mons to beat bug, and steel has tran, as mentioned above. None of the top types have issues with bug.
Bug does not need a nerf, but Genesect as an individual mon is very solid and perhaps too good.

Saying Bug does not need a nerf because the top types in the meta can deal with it should not be the focus. The top types were also able to deal with Mega-Metagross, but it got banned mainly because lower tiered types (mostly Ice, Fairy and Rock) got stomped by it. If you want to convince that Bug is fine as it is in the current meta you should not ignore the fact that currently Bug has over 70% win-rate against lower tiered types such as Poison, Grass and Ice, while it beats Rock over 60% of the time as well (even with Terrakion). As long as Bug is as dominant it is, high tier types will get even more usage and lower tier types will become even more scarce which, even if Bug is not too strong right now, is just bad for the meta as it greatly hinders type diversity.

TL/DR: There are more than 5 types, please acknowledge them

 

[Acast]

None of the top types have issues with bug.

ReuzeSmurf said it perfectly. There are more than 5 types and they need to be acknowledged.

The more I think about it, the more I start thinking that Bug is more than just dominating the metagame right now. It's controlling it. If my theory is correct, Bug is so viable that it's literally shaping which types are "top types" and which are not. The types that have a reliable way of beating Bug will rise in usage while Grass, Ice, Fairy, Rock, Poison, Electric, etc will all continue to drop. If there is such a thing as over centralization around a type, this is it and there is no way it's healthy for our metagame.

Admittedly, that's just a theory. I welcome anyone to tell me if there's solid evidence going against Bug overcentralization, but I honestly think that Bug is reaching the point where it's controlling type usage on the ladder and it needs to be our next focus after Mega Altaria.

EDIT: Someone is going to bring up the fact that Fire dropped in usage, I just know it. My rebuttal to that would be that Fire still has flaws that prevent it from being a top type, even though it has a very favorable matchup against the #1 type. Specifically the lack of hazard control. All the top types have plenty of ways to set up hazards, and if they are weak to rocks themselves, they have a good way of getting rid of those hazards as well. Fire can set up rocks and spin them away, but it has to rely on Torkoal, which is physically bulky for sure, but can't really take a special hit and it's weak to the hazards it has to remove.
Another thing is that it's possible Fire will rise in usage in the future due to Bug being so prevalent. But that's just speculation.

 

[Tyke]

ReuzeSmurf said it perfectly. There are more than 5 types and they need to be acknowledged.

The more I think about it, the more I start thinking that Bug is more than just dominating the metagame right now. It's controlling it. If my theory is correct, Bug is so viable that it's literally shaping which types are "top types" and which are not. The types that have a reliable way of beating Bug will rise in usage while Grass, Ice, Fairy, Rock, Poison, Electric, etc will all continue to drop. If there is such a thing as over centralization around a type, this is it and there is no way it's healthy for our metagame.

Admittedly, that's just a theory. I welcome anyone to tell me if there's solid evidence going against Bug overcentralization, but I honestly think that Bug is reaching the point where it's controlling type usage on the ladder and it needs to be our next focus after Mega Altaria.

EDIT: Someone is going to bring up the fact that Fire dropped in usage, I just know it. My rebuttal to that would be that Fire still has flaws that prevent it from being a top type, even though it has a very favorable matchup against the #1 type. Specifically the lack of hazard control. All the top types have plenty of ways to set up hazards, and if they are weak to rocks themselves, they have a good way of getting rid of those hazards as well. Fire can set up rocks and spin them away, but it has to rely on Torkoal, which is physically bulky for sure, but can't really take a special hit and it's weak to the hazards it has to remove.
Another thing is that it's possible Fire will rise in usage in the future due to Bug being so prevalent. But that's just speculation.

I doubt fire would rise in usage because of bug.

A) Fire still struggles mightily with stealth rock and most of bug's rockers severely threaten fire (Armaldo, Shuckle) with the exception of Forretress (who with sturdy/custap can typically get rocks off.

B) Almost all fire's Pokemon are taken out by mega-pinsir; Quick attack + stealth rock will take out most of fire Pokemon, especially if it pulls of a moxie boost. Scarf heracross will also tear through fire teams quickly.

And fire still gets bopped pretty thoroughly by the other top types.

Psychic has incredibly reliable hazard setters, and applies ferocious offensive pressure with hoopa-u and mega-medicham.

Fighting has terrakion and keldeo as two dangerous scarfers and Mega-Gallade who can bop all fire's Pokemon after a dance and shadow sneak common scarfers like chandelure and victini. Even hawlucha can pull off clean sweeps if Victini has taken one set of SR damage (unless arcanine)

Flying has Gliscor, Landorus-T, Mega Altaria, Mega-Charizard X, Mega-Gyarados (and mega dactyl I guess) to tear apart fire, Something as simple as rock polish Lando is GG right there.

Water struggles with sun but sets up rocks easily with Empoleon, who threatens both hazard controls on fire (use scpinions rock slide Empoleon IMO). Water has advantage in weather wars, Mega-Dos sets up easily, Mega-Shapedo sets up easily, and I think suicune can set up if Charizard isn't out the same turn.

Idk, I still think the meta is very very hostile against fire; and I haven't even gotten into dragon or ground.

EDIT: not sure why I wrote such a long post in response to a passing thought, acast. Lol

 

[thesecondbest]

Saying Bug does not need a nerf because the top types in the meta can deal with it should not be the focus. The top types were also able to deal with Mega-Metagross, but it got banned mainly because lower tiered types (mostly Ice, Fairy and Rock) got stomped by it. If you want to convince that Bug is fine as it is in the current meta you should not ignore the fact that currently Bug has over 70% win-rate against lower tiered types such as Poison, Grass and Ice, while it beats Rock over 60% of the time as well (even with Terrakion). As long as Bug is as dominant it is, high tier types will get even more usage and lower tier types will become even more scarce which, even if Bug is not too strong right now, is just bad for the meta as it greatly hinders type diversity.

TL/DR: There are more than 5 types, please acknowledge them

"The goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive. When discussing a potentially broken Pokemon, please use the following list as a guide for what to look for."
There is no auto win con against any of these types (besides scarf jirachi vs ice, rock, and fairy, especially with heal bell support) so these types are still usable. I proposed that poison needed a buff, so I thought maybe MGar should be legal. But that was shot down (I thought it was broken in OU under the team support aspect, not raw power, and poison needs some team support!). People haven't complained about getting 6-0d by bug. Electric is an awful type because it lacks support options (sr=stunfisk and people dont use it). It has no green matchups in the 1630 stats. Yet nobody has complained there. The types are usable, just bad. It does not hinder specific types, it is just so easy to use to the point where people want to use it.

 

[Azelea]

"The goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive. When discussing a potentially broken Pokemon, please use the following list as a guide for what to look for."
There is no auto win con against any of these types (besides scarf jirachi vs ice, rock, and fairy, especially with heal bell support) so these types are still usable. I proposed that poison needed a buff, so I thought maybe MGar should be legal. But that was shot down (I thought it was broken in OU under the team support aspect, not raw power, and poison needs some team support!). People haven't complained about getting 6-0d by bug. Electric is an awful type because it lacks support options (sr=stunfisk and people dont use it). It has no green matchups in the 1630 stats. Yet nobody has complained there. The types are usable, just bad. It does not hinder specific types, it is just so easy to use to the point where people want to use it.

"There is no auto win con against any of these types (besides scarf jirachi vs ice, rock, and fairy, especially with heal bell support) so these types are still usable."
All those types have good enough checks for scarf Jirachi, Rock has Mega Aggron, Ice has Avalugg, Walrein, Lapras, Piloswine, Fairy has Klefki which can Twave it, set screens and do some really nice damage with foul play 0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. So as you can see Scarf Jirachi is not broken, just get over it ;/

"I proposed that poison needed a buff, so I thought maybe MGar should be legal. But that was shot down (I thought it was broken in OU under the team support aspect, not raw power, and poison needs some team support!)."

Poison is just a really underrated type and in my opinion doesn't need a buff. We all saw how God Chef dominated the ladder with poison a while ago and seen how users like keksrummel and Omniax have reached very high with it recently. I agree with you its not as good as it was before but unbanning an Uber like Mega Gengar makes no sense in my books. I don't think there has been a single unbanning of a pokemon on mono that has turned out to be successful (Skymin, Kyu-W, Mega-Mawile) even tho they raised the usage of these types the types weren't really balanced and people just abused these broken pokemon which made some match ups almost in possible.

 

[Acast]

"The goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive. When discussing a potentially broken Pokemon, please use the following list as a guide for what to look for."
There is no auto win con against any of these types (besides scarf jirachi vs ice, rock, and fairy, especially with heal bell support) so these types are still usable. I proposed that poison needed a buff, so I thought maybe MGar should be legal. But that was shot down (I thought it was broken in OU under the team support aspect, not raw power, and poison needs some team support!). People haven't complained about getting 6-0d by bug. Electric is an awful type because it lacks support options (sr=stunfisk and people dont use it). It has no green matchups in the 1630 stats. Yet nobody has complained there. The types are usable, just bad. It does not hinder specific types, it is just so easy to use to the point where people want to use it.

I don't think anyone said Bug was an auto-win against any other types (except for Mega Pinsir vs Grass). It's simply dominating the metagame in a way that we don't think is healthy.

I'm willing to wait one more month until we see August's statistics before we decide on a Bug nerf (it's ultimately the Council's decision anyway), but if Bug's usage keeps going up or if it even stays at its current level, we need to do something about it.

 

[Whydon]

I agree that the logic behind 'unban a Pokemon so that this type is better' and 'ban a Pokemon so we can nerf this type' is flawed. That's like saying Chansey should be banned in OU just so Blissey can become viable in OU again. It achieves nothing other than making a type either more or less viable. Stuff like Skymin and Kyurem-W are banned because they are broken, not because Ice or Grass is broken with them. Ice with Kyurem-W was, at best, mediocre. Same goes for Grass with Skymin.

 

[Vid]

I agree that the logic behind 'unban a Pokemon so that this type is better' and 'ban a Pokemon so we can nerf this type' is flawed. That's like saying Chansey should be banned in OU just so Blissey can become viable in OU again. It achieves nothing other than making a type either more or less viable. Stuff like Skymin and Kyurem-W are banned because they are broken, not because Ice or Grass is broken with them. Ice with Kyurem-W was, at best, mediocre. Same goes for Grass with Skymin.

I disagree with you saying ice and grass were mediocre with Skymin and Kyurem-W. Kyurem-w made it so you swept the top type and a couple other types with ease making flying vs ice very easy. As for Skymin it was capable of beating any team in monotype by just flinching them to death or just its pure power. These pokemon made grass and ice into decent types please do not say those types were mediocre with those mons.

 

[Whydon]

I disagree with you saying ice and grass were mediocre with Skymin and Kyurem-W. Kyurem-w made it so you swept the top type and a couple other types with ease making flying vs ice very easy. As for Skymin it was capable of beating any team in monotype by just flinching them to death or just its pure power. These pokemon made grass and ice into decent types please do not say those types were mediocre with those mons.

Decent, mediocre, whatever you want to call it. Ice and Grass surely never dominated the ladder with these two Pokemon. It was just an example showing that Pokemon should be banned if they are too powerful, not because they make a type good or help them out a lot.