Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[thesecondbest]

OK here's how you too can calculate stats:
- First I adjusted all the stats to be 1630 ones.
- change the mirror match column to be .5
- then list the usage stat of each type in alphabetical order
- matrix multiply the match up table by the usage stats
Tada!
So for those of you saying starts are unable to say what is truly happening in the meta, these are correct and COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE. That is why using starts is a million times better than any other method.
As for what I said, skarm is the best Mon on the two most broken types. In both of them it creates an unbreakable core that has made its type OP af. Banning it would balance out the meta for sure. I don't know where you guys get the idea that stats are unreliable because that is exactly what they are not. Why are win rates bad? I mean maybe the ladder isn't an SRS of type matchups, but I don't see any other possible issue. If this is a bad metric then come up with a better one because numbers never lie.

 

[Freeroamer]

How are Flying or Steel OP as fuck, lemme give you a hint, Steel bends over to mons with Fire / Fighting or Fire / Ground coverage while Flying hates Ice moves in general, especially those with a way to bypass Gyarados. Sabella's approximation to semistall is actually a very fair one, in that these types have a lot of good matchup as but they also have near unwinnable ones due to the style they've chosen to use. There's very little room to outplay Infernape with Steel or Kyurem-B with Flying. I don't particularly regard winrates of 57 and 55 percent as a huge issue because that's only natural when you consider there's going to be types like Ice and Rock who fall below the 50 too. If you say Water sucks I say Scald / HP Fire / Ice Beam Manaphy actually does a huge amount of work vs both of these "OP" types and that I think Mana+Shark or Gyarados is actually one of the most consistent offensive cores currently available in Monotype thanks to its great matchup vs much of the metagame.

As for this whole numbers are the answer to everything argument are you considering the reliability of the players using the teams? There are bad Flying users as much as there are Bad Steel and Normal users. Winrates aren't just determined by the quality of the type but also the quality of the players that use the types which is a variable statistics can't account for.

 

[Wanka]

Winrates for last month 1630 stats (sorry for not having done it for august, the stats came out too lat so i got lazy):
Bug: 48.5296%
Dark: 50.7124%
Dragon: 53.0125%
Electric: 48.3491%
Fairy: 51.1367%
Fighting: 50.5445%
Fire: 46.2957%
Flying: 55.6025%
Ghost: 42.1982%
Grass: 42.2434%
Ground: 52.6607%
Ice: 36.8689%
Normal: 41.8799%
Poison: 44.2692%
Psychic: 54.8938%
Rock: 44.6452%
Steel: 57.5131%
Water: 49.9714%
Quick thoughts: Normal sucks, a lot. Stop complaining about the eviolite core. Steel is stupidly strong. People hypothesizing about water being really good are mistaken. Sab is not broken at all, steel pay and flying are threats. And why was alt banned again? Because dragon isn't any worse off.
Anyways looking at the top types I say ban skarm globally to end stall flying and end steels stupidly good results, then ban hoopa-u globally. Theoretically that will balance put the metal as the next two types after those both recently got nerfed, and then there's dairy which is good for sure but not dominant. Thoughts on these ideas?

You simply can't say how good a type is just by going off of the types win%. There are other factors that can go into whether a type is successful or not. It all depends on what pokes people are using. the 1630 glicko range doesn't consist of the good portion of the ladder and in the 1630 range you do find a lot of unorthodox teams and people do not use viable pokes for their given type almost 70% of the time and that can affect a types win %.

Normal doesn't suck, water is in fact a strong type to ladder with and skarmory is far from broken lol.

 

[MZ]

Huh. Maybe let's not give him so much hate when he was just trying to help? It's stupid but there's no need for personal attacks. He wasn't continuing it so much as explaining how he did it? Obviously it's a terrible metric but maybe that's not as obvious from the get go to others

 

[scpinion]

Let's drop this guys, it isn't helping anyone or anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you're entitled to disagree with it, but keep the personal attacks out of it.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Flying and steel are very good, however they are not dominant. Even with your stats that show 55 and 57% winrates for both of them all that shows is thats its a really good type, however they are still beatable. If you were to ban something based on winrates it would have to be atleast above 60% winrate and even then if that makes a type op would be subjective.

While they both have very good cores including skarmory, and banning skarmory would indeed nerf the types, skarmory doesnt form any unbreakable cores. On flying skarmdos is good but wallbreakers can get past it with a little bit of effort and forethougt, and a part of why skarmdos was op in the past was the addition of MChar X, who provided an electric resist and ice neutral which is very important. Dedicated wallbreakers such as lorb KyuB can get past skarmdos with fusion bolt and ice beam iirc, and while it is a great core its not impossible for types to beat either with a strong wallbreaker or with a combination of offensive pressure. As for steel it forms a nice immunity core with heatran mainly and can also pair well with doublade, and while that core also looks strong it also can be beaten, an example being SS MSwamp who outspeeds and can 2hko skarmory, the usual defensive pokemon, with some prior damage.

However a case of "just outplay the opponent to remove skarmdos or skarmtran" falls into the two way street of predictions which can go both ways. So another way skarmory isnt part of an unbreakable core is that mixed wallbreakers with coverage can get past skarmory cores, and even some pokemon with insane stats muscle past them. Charizard Y, Landorus I and Infernape have little trouble with skarmtran, Char Y can ko with fire stab and muscle past non stone edge heatran with focus blast or eq on non air balloon version. Gravity Lando I ohkos both with earth power not taking into accout sturdy, and infernapes close combat + fire blast can get past too. These are only examples off the top of my head, and there are more pokemon that can singlehandedly get past skarmtran. Even then there arent a lot of pokemon that do it, but that shows that its a good core, not a broken one. For skarmdos Char Y also breaks past again, and a lot of special attackers that break Zapdos put pressure on that core aswell, KyuB coming back again. Again Gravity Lando I deals a lot of damage since epower is SE, and shoutouts to BoltBeam users since if they 2hko Zapdos then rip core.

However that isnt taking into account other teammates, but when you do take into account other teammates not only is it less and less skarmory's fault but it also has turned back into a game of skill, with predictions and outplaying the opponent to get past these other pokemon.

Thimos stall is a different matter, however the choice of status can be important to stall. Burns are nice for physical attackers, but toxic is better for pokemon with recovery, and its nice not having to switch out to use different status. Scald also still has a use even whenthe opponent pokemon are poisoned by providing chip damage, and if they switch the chance for a burn.

Again back to fixing the problem, most people dont see a problem in steel and flying. What they see is are very good types that are greaat in this meta. While flying and steel both have great pokemon, it usually is a matter of skill in games on ladder, and even though flying and steel might have more options than the opposing type this doesnt make steel or flying broken, just good types.

Edit: ofc wheni post this then i see scp's post rip. also adding a tl;dr

tl;dr winrates show a good type, not a broken one, skarmdos and skarmtran are both very beatable, thimos stall status isnt redundant, flying and steel arent viewed as problems by most people

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

It's you all who are stirring shit. I literally just posted the winrates and said steel and flying are op. Then I got twenty responses from angry mob members.

Yeah but they really aren't :/ They're good, but not OP, and the meta is pretty balanced right now imo
I don't know the exact stats, but I'm willing to bet that when we banned Kyu-W and Skymin, Ice and Grass had shit winrates (lol MegaGross was still in the meta ofc Ice was shit), and this brings us back to the point that stats =/= viability, OPness, or brokenness. Saying "these are some stats now let's ban this, this, and that" is not a good argument. Skarmory is not broken, and I'll show you why I think this.
Let's look at the tiering philosophy in regards to banning:

1. The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types (3 is an absolute minimum). For example, Talonflame is banned from Monotype because +1 Priority Brave Bird could sweep any team with a common weakness to Flying-type attacks.

Um no, Skarm doesn't auto-win against anything.

2. The Pokemon promotes type based matchups. Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky did this during their time in the metagame on Ice and Grass teams, respectively. These Pokemon enhanced the favorable matchups Ice and Grass had, while doing little to address the matchups the type struggled with.
We will not be un-banning Ubers, solely to make an underused type better.

Don't think it promotes type based matchups, some types struggle with it but all can easily get past it.
3. The Pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength. Some Pokemon have stats/abilities that are just too good for the Monotype metagame, such as Mega-Slowbro, Greninja, Mega-Metagross or Mega-Mawile.

Lol @ Skarm being too strong. Team support is great on Flying, but Skarm is usually the one providing support, not taking it. Team support is less on Steel, and again Skarm is usually the support mon, providing hazards.

4. The Pokemon is an integral part of a core that cannot be beaten by most teams. Aegislash is banned from Steel teams because of its role in the infamous "immunity core". Charizard-Mega-X was banned from Flying teams for similar reasons.
Please think carefully about whether a specific core is broken.
Ask yourself: "Does it have weaknesses that are exploitable by a large portion of the metagame?"
The Eviolite twins on Normal teams (Porygon2 and Chansey) is a strong core that is not broken because they have a crippling weakness to Knock Off.

Yes the SkarmDos core is amazing, but all types have a way past it. Mons like Tyranitar (if based mixed set), Mega Medicham, Specs Keldeo, LO MixChomp, Mega Charizard Y, Nidoking, Kyurem-Black, etc. can all 2HKO the core singlehandedly, so while it is a great core and a solid defensive backbone for Flying, it can be broken by every type.

On Steel, the SkarmTranFerro core can be broken as well. Mega Medicham, special Kyu-B, Magnezone traps and kills 2/3, Keldeo, MixChomp, Heatran, Nidoking, etc. all 2HKO the core, and while a few are stopped by Doublade, others can get past them.


TL; DR: Skarmory is a very good defensive mon and forms some solid cores, but it is by no means broken. High winrate=/=broken. It doesn't auto-win vs. anything. It isn't broken via natural strength or team support (it IS the team support), and doesn't promote type-based matchups. No offense man, but there is no reason to ban it :/

EDIT: sorry scp, only saw your post after I posted this :/

 

[scpinion]

InfernapeTropius11 and SubMindRaikou that discussion is fine! That is what we want. Just keep everything cordial.

Edit: added SubMindRaikou

 

[perish song me]

Something interesting about skarmory is that it alleviates the weakness of a type rather than enhancing its strength. For steel it takes ground and fighting hits, for flying it takes rock and ice and can defog. That means that a discussion about banning skarm should not be focused on the first two criteria. Skarm is not what makes 'auto win' matchups for steel for flying auto wins. Skarm is strong because it gets rid of 'auto loss' matchups. With that in mind, I think the criteria to look at is 4.The Pokemon is an integral part of a core that cannot be beaten by most teams. You could at least make an argument that flying cores are unbeatable for some teams.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Something interesting about skarmory is that it alleviates the weakness of a type rather than enhancing its strength. For steel it takes ground and fighting hits, for flying it takes rock and ice and can defog. That means that a discussion about banning skarm should not be focused on the first two criteria. Skarm is not what makes 'auto win' matchups for steel for flying auto wins. Skarm is strong because it gets rid of 'auto loss' matchups. With that in mind, I think the criteria to look at is 4.The Pokemon is an integral part of a core that cannot be beaten by most teams. You could at least make an argument that flying cores are unbeatable for some teams.

Just making a list im bored so wynaut, not including everything just enough so that core is rip

Flying: lando i, char y

Psychic: i dont psychic but i assume megegard dents heavily with hyper voice latios and starmie with boltbeam and victini v create cleans

Fighting: infernape cleans skarmtran, idk maybe like mgallade or mhera for zapdos pretty sure keldeo and terrak also work but idk fighting

Steel: unban genesect to deal with core imo has mag which dents spdef zap nicely and gains momentum with vswitch, can bring skarm to sturdy, neutral phys moves ko zap one mag cleans skarm

Water: ss mega swamp can rek with a bit of damage, ice meme can be everywere, sr swamp can dent zap idk if it wins 1v1 tho

Dark: msab kinda stops this by itself but doesnt like parahax, mixed ttar also reks

Ground: lando i, nidoking

Fairy: m diancie can rek, if skarm doesnt have whirlwind then i think azu also reks

Bug: galv and volc, if you dont want parahax then maybe armaldo doesnt care and rock stab hits hard

Fire: is fire, physical fire moves really dent zap, eq or focus miss darm and char y take out tran

Rock: is rock, diancie with hp fire and epower for tran and skarm terrak also is scary nd ttar

Electric: is elctric, zap cant really switch in to a lot of elec attacks esp voltswitch since momentum, av eelektross rock slide can 2hko iirc spdef zap ofc

Dragon: kyub, boltbeam latios

Ice: is ice, kyub for skarm and mamo for tran

Ghost: msab again, if you dont like parahax then maybe golurk stone edge, chandy also helps and jelli can sorta deal with tran

Grass: mvenu might outstall, breloom rock tomb can hurt if your sleeping, serperior can do decently with leaf storm or dragon pulse

Normal: diggersby tho, can 2hko everything with band, mlopp and mpidg also help and maybe boltbeam pory z

Poison: Nidoking again, gengar can taunt or something idk what it does tho that nido doesnt

Pretty sure thats all the types, probably got some things wrong i dont play a lot xd

 

[Inwhale]

I'm not going to pretend I know how most matchups effectively deal with skarmdos but

Just making a list im bored so wynaut, not including everything just enough so that core is rip

Steel: unban genesect to deal with core imo has mag which dents spdef zap nicely and gains momentum with vswitch, can bring skarm to sturdy, neutral phys moves ko zap one mag cleans skarm

Bug: galv and volc, if you dont want parahax then maybe armaldo doesnt care and rock stab hits hard

Electric: is elctric, zap cant really switch in to a lot of elec attacks esp voltswitch since momentum, av eelektross rock slide can 2hko iirc spdef zap ofc

Volt switch is practically guaranteed momentum loss versus flying due to it being obvious and flying having access to great pokemon immune to electric (gotta love SE immunities and their balance in types, thanks GF), especially in magnezone's case, which usually can't afford to run hp ice, due to hp fire being significantly more useful for its role in both steel and electric. By forcing a switch to an immunity, you're not "dealing with the core", but postponing facing it by a turn. It really is just a game of predictions on both ends, except with the skarmdos core the amount of wrong guesses you can make is much less punishing due to how handily it can recover vs what is there to break it or switch in for support.

As far as galvantula goes, it doesn't. While galvantula (or just about anything with above abysmal SpA and fire or electric moves) can get skarm down to 1%, zapdos is a whole other story. Galvantula's damage just isn't there even with STAB Thunder, while zap nets an easy 2hko with heat wave, which even armaldo or volcarona can switch into only so many times (once, maybe twice). Speaking of armaldo, the same goes for it vs skarm, although that more due to the fact that skarm is the absolute beast of physical bulkyness. A skarmory can easily stall out the stone edges and switch to whatever the bug user sends in to deal with it. Remember that when armaldo is used, it's also most likely the one keeping hazards off the field for bug, and by having no good recovery it can be easily worn down to the point where it can no longer provide support for mons like volcarona or yanmega or whatever. While volcarona is bug's best answer to the core, it's very weak to status so even facing zapdos can be grim, and every flying team has at least one pokemon they can designate just for sending in vs volc (keeping it safe from other threats), be it dragonite or spdef togekiss or whatnot.

When it comes down to it, i feel like the defensive cores of flying and steel are that powerful not because the mons themselves are particularly OP, but specifically because they are backed up by pokemon that take literally no damage from moves that would otherwise be a problem for the team, which leads to incredible momentum swings compared to anything else that can happen in a game. While a couple other types also get the good immunity luxury (water is a good example here), the defensive pokemon in those are not that amazing, due to either lack of recovery, bulk, or versatility. While steel's recovery is reserved for pretty much skarmory (and empoleon i guess), it more than makes up for it by having at least one pokemon immune to each of its weaknesses, all of which are considerably above average pokemon, when it comes to both offensive and defensive play.

I can't even begin to imagine this game, were say, volcarona immune to fire, armaldo immune to flying and scizor immune to rock. That sounds so ridiculously imbalanced it's not even funny. But that's what playing against steel, and to a lesser extent, flying feels like.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

I'm not going to pretend I know how most matchups effectively deal with skarmdos but


Volt switch is practically guaranteed momentum loss versus flying due to it being obvious and flying having access to great pokemon immune to electric (gotta love SE immunities and their balance in types, thanks GF), especially in magnezone's case, which usually can't afford to run hp ice, due to hp fire being significantly more useful for its role in both steel and electric. By forcing a switch to an immunity, you're not "dealing with the core", but postponing facing it by a turn. It really is just a game of predictions on both ends, except with the skarmdos core the amount of wrong guesses you can make is much less punishing due to how handily it can recover vs what is there to break it or switch in for support.

As far as galvantula goes, it doesn't. While galvantula (or just about anything with above abysmal SpA and fire or electric moves) can get skarm down to 1%, zapdos is a whole other story. Galvantula's damage just isn't there even with STAB Thunder, while zap nets an easy 2hko with heat wave, which even armaldo or volcarona can switch into only so many times (once, maybe twice). Speaking of armaldo, the same goes for it vs skarm, although that more due to the fact that skarm is the absolute beast of physical bulkyness. A skarmory can easily stall out the stone edges and switch to whatever the bug user sends in to deal with it. Remember that when armaldo is used, it's also most likely the one keeping hazards off the field for bug, and by having no good recovery it can be easily worn down to the point where it can no longer provide support for mons like volcarona or yanmega or whatever. While volcarona is bug's best answer to the core, it's very weak to status so even facing zapdos can be grim, and every flying team has at least one pokemon they can designate just for sending in vs volc (keeping it safe from other threats), be it dragonite or spdef togekiss or whatnot.

When it comes down to it, i feel like the defensive cores of flying and steel are that powerful not because the mons themselves are particularly OP, but specifically because they are backed up by pokemon that take literally no damage from moves that would otherwise be a problem for the team, which leads to incredible momentum swings compared to anything else that can happen in a game. While a couple other types also get the good immunity luxury (water is a good example here), the defensive pokemon in those are not that amazing, due to either lack of recovery, bulk, or versatility. While steel's recovery is reserved for pretty much skarmory (and empoleon i guess), it more than makes up for it by having at least one pokemon immune to each of its weaknesses, all of which are considerably above average pokemon, when it comes to both offensive and defensive play.

I can't even begin to imagine this game, were say, volcarona immune to fire, armaldo immune to flying and scizor immune to rock. That sounds so ridiculously imbalanced it's not even funny. But that's what playing against steel, and to a lesser extent, flying feels like.

While HP fire magnezone can be very useful the trapping set isnt the only set. Scarf and specs sets sometimes run hp ice, and on pk kaisers balanced eletric sample team mag has hp grass (though electric is different since water grounds give them hell), so hp ice would be on the same rank of viability as hp fire imo

However mag may not be enough for the core itself, so maybe i should put out that desperate players have gravity vswitch mag into scarf eq exca which should take care of the core nicely if your vs a nub who doesnt know not to sack skarmdos to stall gravity memes.

On a more serious note heatran can deal nicely with skarm without fear of them switching to an electric immune, however some trans run hp ice incase you fear glisc or something.

As for zapdos, while you cant "counter" it since everything does to either discharge and heatwave bar heatran who still doesnt like discharge and flash fire lava plume is probably a 3hko iirc, but if your a meme like bondie then scarf fire miss tran might 2hko with flash fire assuming it isnt anttya with the parahax.

As for bug, even 3hkos should be good since your a ho type so keeping the pressure up should be a thing, however all my experience with bug was pre generekt ban. While bug probably has ways to get past idk them since i suck at non op bug, and this is probs a really bad way to beat skarmdos as bug

However thats just what i "disagree" with and i do agree with some points, i just view them differently.

While vswitch might lose momentum, it puts the opponent in a prediction phase were they call hp ice and keep skarm/zap in or predict vswitch and send lando in, and at this point its a game of skill again were predictions and plays win the game, not the pokemon in an auto win situation.

While skarmdos leaves little room for error, i dont see it as enough to be broken for flying, i just see flying as a more viable type with a more viable core than most types.

Also i agree that the teammates make the core good, however its not the main pokemon with that immunity its the teammates, which again goes back to the prediction stuff, and while it is easier for flying again i see that as flying having that better core with better support

 

[ReuzeSmurf]

Regarding the Mega-Sableye discussion I've found that the following 3 types have a very hard time dealing with it and often have to rely using rather gimmicky sets that can only check it rather than counter it, or have to rely on the opponent not keeping Mega-Sableye healthy enough. Note that this is mostly concerning the Calm Mind set, as I think it has much more 6-0 potential than the utility set.

Fighting:
Utility Mega Sab is very hard to break on the physical side as everything but Infernape and Guts Heracross hate burns. Even then:
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 134-160 (44 - 52.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (gets recover stalled until recoil kills it)
Guts Heracross can rip through it as nothing on Dark likes taking hits from it, but on ghost, resistances to Megahorn are everywhere which means that the Mega-Sableye user can just switch after Heracross gets statused to account for the possibility that it has Guts. Since it's statused, it's gonna get worn down at some point. Calm Mind Mega-Sableye is unbreakable except for sub-cm Keldeo, SD Poison Heal Breloom and SD Infernape. The former doesn't work vs Ghost since Jellicent and Trevenant just wall it (it beats it on Dark though), while the latter 2 are relatively gimmicky. It's notable that Calm Mind Sableye can setup a Calm Mind on the switch to Specs Keldeo and possibly avoid the 2HKO with a second Calm Mind.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If you don't get high rolls/crits or miss once, Sableye can just heal off the damage and setup further.

Electric:
Pretty much only has Specs Magnezone, Band Luxray and Toxic Mega-Ampharos to stop Calm Mind variants. Specs Magnezone can't beat it if it has already used Calm Mind once on the switch:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (2 max rolls can't KO meaning it can recover back up)
Band Luxray can 2HKO but it is vulnerable to getting attacked on the switch and has to rely on Wild Charge to achieve the 2HKO, meaning that recoil will add up eventually. The Mega-Sableye user can take advantage of this by switching to make Luxray take recoil damage while keeping Sableye Healthy, or they can continuously recover to get the same effect. The fact that Toxic Mega Ampharos is a thing is a testament to how ridiculously straining Mega-Sableye can be for some types (it's on over half of all Mega-Ampharos). Ampharos has no reliable recovery and is fairly predictable meaning it can be played around by switching into Toxic immunities and wearing it down throughout the match. Utility Mega-Sableye is easier to break with it's lack of Special Defense, but is still threatening.

Poison: Calm Mind variants can setup on almost everything. After one Calm Mind it can avoid the 2HKO from Modest Life Orb Nidoking:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It also avoids the OHKO from Specs Dragalge at +1 Special Defense:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 226-268 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If it clicks Recover after the hit, Dragalge becomes a sitting duck as it now has -2 Special Attack)
Tentacruel can sorta check Calm Mind variants with Acid Spray and Scald, but it has to use Acid Spray at least twice on a Mega-Sableye setting up before it can do meaningful damage as otherwise it's Special Defense is too high. While Tentacruel is forced to do this, Mega Sableye can just burn it or hit it with an attack before switching out, keeping itself healthy for later while Tentacruel is gonna get worn down eventually as it has no recovery outside of Rest. Banded Scolipede can not 2HKO from full when you factor in that it just gets burned after the first attack. Its only chance is being a Lum Berry SD set which when used against Dark, can easily be stopped by foddering a mon and revenging with Foul Play Mandibuzz or Life Orb Crawdaunt/Bisharp. Ghost can also revenge kill it with Golurk's sash intact, otherwise it can become difficult. There is the more gimmicky option of using Poison Fang to inflict bad poison on it, but not only has this no uses outside of Mega-Sableye, it relies on a surprise factor and a 50% chance, which means that if you're unlucky, your opponent will know and play around it. It also gets completely stopped if there is Heal Bell support.

(I would say Ice gets beaten by it too, but I don't know enough about the type to give a good judgement on it.)

With this being said, I definitely think Mega-Sableye deserves a suspect either for being an auto-win condition vs these types or through natural strength (and possibly support). It's has a combination of ability, stats and movepool to single handedly force these 3 types into using sets that are either sub-par, gimmicky or both, which I think is simply not a healthy influence. I'm curious as to what people have to say about this.

 

[Vid]

Regarding the Mega-Sableye discussion I've found that the following 3 types have a very hard time dealing with it and often have to rely using rather gimmicky sets that can only check it rather than counter it, or have to rely on the opponent not keeping Mega-Sableye healthy enough. Note that this is mostly concerning the Calm Mind set, as I think it has much more 6-0 potential than the utility set.

Fighting:
Utility Mega Sab is very hard to break on the physical side as everything but Infernape and Guts Heracross hate burns. Even then:
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 134-160 (44 - 52.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (gets recover stalled until recoil kills it)
Guts Heracross can rip through it as nothing on Dark likes taking hits from it, but on ghost, resistances to Megahorn are everywhere which means that the Mega-Sableye user can just switch after Heracross gets statused to account for the possibility that it has Guts. Since it's statused, it's gonna get worn down at some point. Calm Mind Mega-Sableye is unbreakable except for sub-cm Keldeo, SD Poison Heal Breloom and SD Infernape. The former doesn't work vs Ghost since Jellicent and Trevenant just wall it (it beats it on Dark though), while the latter 2 are relatively gimmicky. It's notable that Calm Mind Sableye can setup a Calm Mind on the switch to Specs Keldeo and possibly avoid the 2HKO with a second Calm Mind.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If you don't get high rolls/crits or miss once, Sableye can just heal off the damage and setup further.

Electric:
Pretty much only has Specs Magnezone, Band Luxray and Toxic Mega-Ampharos to stop Calm Mind variants. Specs Magnezone can't beat it if it has already used Calm Mind once on the switch:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (2 max rolls can't KO meaning it can recover back up)
Band Luxray can 2HKO but it is vulnerable to getting attacked on the switch and has to rely on Wild Charge to achieve the 2HKO, meaning that recoil will add up eventually. The Mega-Sableye user can take advantage of this by switching to make Luxray take recoil damage while keeping Sableye Healthy, or they can continuously recover to get the same effect. The fact that Toxic Mega Ampharos is a thing is a testament to how ridiculously straining Mega-Sableye can be for some types (it's on over half of all Mega-Ampharos). Ampharos has no reliable recovery and is fairly predictable meaning it can be played around by switching into Toxic immunities and wearing it down throughout the match. Utility Mega-Sableye is easier to break with it's lack of Special Defense, but is still threatening.

Poison: Calm Mind variants can setup on almost everything. After one Calm Mind it can avoid the 2HKO from Modest Life Orb Nidoking:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It also avoids the OHKO from Specs Dragalge at +1 Special Defense:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 226-268 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If it clicks Recover after the hit, Dragalge becomes a sitting duck as it now has -2 Special Attack)
Tentacruel can sorta check Calm Mind variants with Acid Spray and Scald, but it has to use Acid Spray at least twice on a Mega-Sableye setting up before it can do meaningful damage as otherwise it's Special Defense is too high. While Tentacruel is forced to do this, Mega Sableye can just burn it or hit it with an attack before switching out, keeping itself healthy for later while Tentacruel is gonna get worn down eventually as it has no recovery outside of Rest. Banded Scolipede can not 2HKO from full when you factor in that it just gets burned after the first attack. Its only chance is being a Lum Berry SD set which when used against Dark, can easily be stopped by foddering a mon and revenging with Foul Play Mandibuzz or Life Orb Crawdaunt/Bisharp. Ghost can also revenge kill it with Golurk's sash intact, otherwise it can become difficult. There is the more gimmicky option of using Poison Fang to inflict bad poison on it, but not only has this no uses outside of Mega-Sableye, it relies on a surprise factor and a 50% chance, which means that if you're unlucky, your opponent will know and play around it. It also gets completely stopped if there is Heal Bell support.

(I would say Ice gets beaten by it too, but I don't know enough about the type to give a good judgement on it.)

With this being said, I definitely think Mega-Sableye deserves a suspect either for being an auto-win condition vs these types or through natural strength (and possibly support). It's has a combination of ability, stats and movepool to single handedly force these 3 types into using sets that are either sub-par, gimmicky or both, which I think is simply not a healthy influence. I'm curious as to what people have to say about this.

Electric
Has toxic Mega Fabio which cripples Mega Sab which is very worthy to mention
Ice
Recently after using it for a CC I would say frost breath from specs walrien or a choice banded kyurem-b outrage are only two good ways to kill it. Just wanted to add a bit.
Atm i am neutral on mega sab. I see why it is broken but I see that there are some ways to beat it effectively.

 

[Kammi]

Regarding the Mega-Sableye discussion I've found that the following 3 types have a very hard time dealing with it and often have to rely using rather gimmicky sets that can only check it rather than counter it, or have to rely on the opponent not keeping Mega-Sableye healthy enough. Note that this is mostly concerning the Calm Mind set, as I think it has much more 6-0 potential than the utility set.

Fighting:
Utility Mega Sab is very hard to break on the physical side as everything but Infernape and Guts Heracross hate burns. Even then:
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 134-160 (44 - 52.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (gets recover stalled until recoil kills it)
Guts Heracross can rip through it as nothing on Dark likes taking hits from it, but on ghost, resistances to Megahorn are everywhere which means that the Mega-Sableye user can just switch after Heracross gets statused to account for the possibility that it has Guts. Since it's statused, it's gonna get worn down at some point. Calm Mind Mega-Sableye is unbreakable except for sub-cm Keldeo, SD Poison Heal Breloom and SD Infernape. The former doesn't work vs Ghost since Jellicent and Trevenant just wall it (it beats it on Dark though), while the latter 2 are relatively gimmicky. It's notable that Calm Mind Sableye can setup a Calm Mind on the switch to Specs Keldeo and possibly avoid the 2HKO with a second Calm Mind.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If you don't get high rolls/crits or miss once, Sableye can just heal off the damage and setup further.

Electric:
Pretty much only has Specs Magnezone, Band Luxray and Toxic Mega-Ampharos to stop Calm Mind variants. Specs Magnezone can't beat it if it has already used Calm Mind once on the switch:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (2 max rolls can't KO meaning it can recover back up)
Band Luxray can 2HKO but it is vulnerable to getting attacked on the switch and has to rely on Wild Charge to achieve the 2HKO, meaning that recoil will add up eventually. The Mega-Sableye user can take advantage of this by switching to make Luxray take recoil damage while keeping Sableye Healthy, or they can continuously recover to get the same effect. The fact that Toxic Mega Ampharos is a thing is a testament to how ridiculously straining Mega-Sableye can be for some types (it's on over half of all Mega-Ampharos). Ampharos has no reliable recovery and is fairly predictable meaning it can be played around by switching into Toxic immunities and wearing it down throughout the match. Utility Mega-Sableye is easier to break with it's lack of Special Defense, but is still threatening.

Poison: Calm Mind variants can setup on almost everything. After one Calm Mind it can avoid the 2HKO from Modest Life Orb Nidoking:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It also avoids the OHKO from Specs Dragalge at +1 Special Defense:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 226-268 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If it clicks Recover after the hit, Dragalge becomes a sitting duck as it now has -2 Special Attack)
Tentacruel can sorta check Calm Mind variants with Acid Spray and Scald, but it has to use Acid Spray at least twice on a Mega-Sableye setting up before it can do meaningful damage as otherwise it's Special Defense is too high. While Tentacruel is forced to do this, Mega Sableye can just burn it or hit it with an attack before switching out, keeping itself healthy for later while Tentacruel is gonna get worn down eventually as it has no recovery outside of Rest. Banded Scolipede can not 2HKO from full when you factor in that it just gets burned after the first attack. Its only chance is being a Lum Berry SD set which when used against Dark, can easily be stopped by foddering a mon and revenging with Foul Play Mandibuzz or Life Orb Crawdaunt/Bisharp. Ghost can also revenge kill it with Golurk's sash intact, otherwise it can become difficult. There is the more gimmicky option of using Poison Fang to inflict bad poison on it, but not only has this no uses outside of Mega-Sableye, it relies on a surprise factor and a 50% chance, which means that if you're unlucky, your opponent will know and play around it. It also gets completely stopped if there is Heal Bell support.

(I would say Ice gets beaten by it too, but I don't know enough about the type to give a good judgement on it.)

With this being said, I definitely think Mega-Sableye deserves a suspect either for being an auto-win condition vs these types or through natural strength (and possibly support). It's has a combination of ability, stats and movepool to single handedly force these 3 types into using sets that are either sub-par, gimmicky or both, which I think is simply not a healthy influence. I'm curious as to what people have to say about this.

Small note, but Poison has possibly the easiest answer in the metagame to Sableye in Toxic Spikes (set them up on literally anything else on the opposing team and they have no way to get ride of them), and also if you have issues with the Calm Mind variant, Clear Smog is pretty effective. Tentacruel also completely beats Mega Sableye 1 on 1 with Acid Spray + Scald burns.

(Besides this, can you really say that Fighting only has trouble with Mega Sableye on Ghost? Even if Sablenite was banned, Fighting would still lose most of the time - it's just a crappy matchup. Regular Sableye probably ruins Fighting teams even more than Mega version.)

 

[ReuzeSmurf]

Small note, but Poison has possibly the easiest answer in the metagame to Sableye in Toxic Spikes (set them up on literally anything else on the opposing team and they have no way to get ride of them), and also if you have issues with the Calm Mind variant, Clear Smog is pretty effective. Tentacruel also completely beats Mega Sableye 1 on 1 with Acid Spray + Scald burns.

(Besides this, can you really say that Fighting only has trouble with Mega Sableye on Ghost? Even if Sablenite was banned, Fighting would still lose most of the time - it's just a crappy matchup. Regular Sableye probably ruins Fighting teams even more than Mega version.)

I wouldn't really consider Toxic Spikes to be an 'answer' to Mega-Sableye. I can see your point as a Ghost user. Yes, they aren't too hard to setup vs Ghost, but if Sableye comes in with only one layer down, it'll merely get regular poison, which softens it up, but doesn't really qualify as an answer. This strategy simply doesn't work vs Dark, since they have Mandibuzz to Defog and sometimes Umbreon to use Heal Bell as a backup. Clear Smog/Haze prolongs facing it rather than beating it and it doesn't help that most users of the move can't do much Mega-Sableye afterwards with the exception of Tentacruel, which I mentioned in my post, does beat it 1 vs 1, but ultimately gets outlasted. Jellicent/Trevenant on Ghost and Mandibuzz/Umbreon on Dark can just be switched in on it.
As for the Fighting vs Ghost matchup, I should have taken into account that whole teams are facing each other, not just a couple of pokemon. My unfamiliarity with the matchup may have made me said some stupid stuff so sorry for that.

 

[Acast]

I've been using poison a lot and I have never had an issue with Mega Sableye. As long as Tentacruel's Acid Spray or Clear Smog keep it from setting up, Nidoking can easily beat it. If it switches out on Tenta, that's a good thing because it loses the CM boosts. Fighting is the only type that I agree gets screwed over by Mega Sableye, but I also agree with what others have said: regular Sableye is more of a threat to Fighting than Mega Sab. So banning Sablenite would do nothing to help Fighting.

 

[AviatorDragon]

Mega Sableye is annoying as hell on Electric. I can't do anything against it, and look at this ridiculousness:

252+ SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Mega Sableye: 125-148 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And he can just Recover it off and bounce back all my Toxics and Will-O-Wisps with his ability. Once a Sableye comes out on the field and I have my electric mono I'm pretty much gg'd unless I get a miracle crit, and even then...Recover. That being said, I haven't switched out my Mega Manectric for Mega Ampharos yet...so maybe Amphy can do something against the monster.

EDIT: Even Mega Amphy only barely gets the 2HKO

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye: 153-180 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[perish song me]

Your first problem is using electevire.

Also, mega ampharos has mold breaker, meaning toxic doesn't get magic bounced. Pretty sure that's how tesla does it.

 

[AviatorDragon]

I know, I know. I just made the team yesterday, still working on it, seeing what works. I was just trying out Electevire. That's literally what I do, I think the main reason I suck so much is that I use really weird strategies. Some work suprisingly well, but they still get criticized for not being mainstream. Electivire isn't working for me at all, so I'm for sure changing him. Any physical electrics you wanna recommend?

And even with Toxic Mega Sableye is still annoying.

 

[Anttya]

If you want a physical Electric type, I recommend Assault Vest Eelektross or Banded Guts Luxray.

Eel has Drain Punch (so it can beat Chansey), good coverage moves, and Levitate so it provides a good amount of utility, and is pretty bulky.

Eelektross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide
- Volt Switch / etc

Drain Punch beats Chansey, Knock Off removes important items, Rock Slide beats Volc, and Volt Switch is coverage but you can use pretty much anything.

Luxray @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Quick Attack / Volt Switch

This one can check Sab because Guts + Band does a good amount of damage. Wild Charge is a strong STAB, Crunch hits Psychics, Superpower for Chansey / Porygon2, and Quick Attack for priority. Volt Switch also works if you want momentum but keep the Adamant nature. Shoutout to Tylacto for showing me how OP Luxray is!

 

[AviatorDragon]

Luxray is like my favorite Pokemon ever. I should really make an RMT thread for this, because I also need to squeeze in Lantern because status=rip with my team. I'm trying to fix it, I know there's a lot wrong Dx

 

[Dece1t]

I know, I know. I just made the team yesterday, still working on it, seeing what works. I was just trying out Electevire. That's literally what I do, I think the main reason I suck so much is that I use really weird strategies. Some work suprisingly well, but they still get criticized for not being mainstream. Electivire isn't working for me at all, so I'm for sure changing him. Any physical electrics you wanna recommend?

And even with Toxic Mega Sableye is still annoying.

I've found strong hitters like specs magnezone very useful, and Luxray checks it near perfectly, while also causing pressure on switching out.

 

[Vid]

I know, I know. I just made the team yesterday, still working on it, seeing what works. I was just trying out Electevire. That's literally what I do, I think the main reason I suck so much is that I use really weird strategies. Some work suprisingly well, but they still get criticized for not being mainstream. Electivire isn't working for me at all, so I'm for sure changing him. Any physical electrics you wanna recommend?

And even with Toxic Mega Sableye is still annoying.

Luxray>Electevire it even counter mega sab with a guts cb set. Also Eelektross is good. Electevire is just bad

 

[SubMindRaikou]

I know, I know. I just made the team yesterday, still working on it, seeing what works. I was just trying out Electevire. That's literally what I do, I think the main reason I suck so much is that I use really weird strategies. Some work suprisingly well, but they still get criticized for not being mainstream. Electivire isn't working for me at all, so I'm for sure changing him. Any physical electrics you wanna recommend?

And even with Toxic Mega Sableye is still annoying.

Thundurus Eelektross and Luxray are all good :v

If you want a physical Electric type, I recommend Assault Vest Eelektross or Banded Guts Luxray.

Eel has Drain Punch (so it can beat Chansey), good coverage moves, and Levitate so it provides a good amount of utility, and is pretty bulky.

Eelektross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide
- Volt Switch / etc

Drain Punch beats Chansey, Knock Off removes important items, Rock Slide beats Volc, and Volt Switch is coverage but you can use pretty much anything.

Luxray @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Quick Attack / Volt Switch

This one can check Sab because Guts + Band does a good amount of damage. Wild Charge is a strong STAB, Crunch hits Psychics, Superpower for Chansey / Porygon2, and Quick Attack for priority. Volt Switch also works if you want momentum but keep the Adamant nature. Shoutout to Tylacto for showing me how OP Luxray is!

Pretty sure tesla uses iron tail on eelektross instead of vswitch :v