Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Umm...? Lanturn is still a great Pokemon and it hasn't lost any niche at all. In fact, with Klinklang on the rise, Lanturn can provide a soft check to it. Lanturn also has access to a great move called Volt Switch so its not like your gonna stay in and give the psychics multiple boosts lol and Lanturn can carry Toxic or T-Wave, so it can cripple the CM psychics, making it not complete set up fodder.

Against any decent player Lanturns predictability (both set-wise and when it's switching in because of the limited mons it comes in on safely) and passivity can make it a huge momentum killer and even a liability. Blocking Volt Switch is also hardly relevant as the only common users are Rotom and Lanturn itself. Definitely not an A+ mon.

This part made me laugh. I forgot that people are gonna switch in their ground types on a Lanturn, so then just switch out again on the Water STAB or Ice Beam (haha get played!). Slow Volt Switches does not make it a 'momentum killer' either, even if your opponent predicts in coming in, you can still just Volt Switch out a lot of the time and if not, thats one time were you might have to hard switch out, but thats also called getting predicted which isn't a valid reason for a mon to drop; because you got outplayed whilst using it.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Umm...? Lanturn is still a great Pokemon and it hasn't lost any niche at all.

Except it has. Magneton almost single handedly made Lanturn as popular as it is.

In fact, with Klinklang on the rise, Lanturn can provide a soft check to it.

Klinklang isn't on the rise, it has always been a solid pick. And Lanturn needs to rely on Scald burning to beat it, which makes it a mediocre check at best.

Lanturn also has access to a great move called Volt Switch so its not like your gonna stay in and give the psychics multiple boosts lol and Lanturn can carry Toxic or T-Wave, so it can cripple the CM psychics, making it not complete set up fodder.

Volt Switching essentially means being forced out, which proves my point. Uxie runs Sub which blocks Toxic or T-wave. Musharna runs Heal Bell and has Synchronize. Nope.

This part made me laugh. I forgot that people are gonna switch in their ground types on a Lanturn, so then just switch out again on the Water STAB or Ice Beam (haha get played!). Slow Volt Switches does not make it a 'momentum killer' either, even if your opponent predicts in coming in, you can still just Volt Switch out a lot of the time and if not, thats one time were you might have to hard switch out, but thats also called getting predicted which isn't a valid reason for a mon to drop; because you got outplayed whilst using it.

The problem is that Lanturn only checks a limited amount of threats with its resistances and doesn't offer much itself. Slow Volt Switch and Scald essentially. Both laughably weak, even with STAB. No recovery. It never actually gets kills, it just pivots in, takes damage and tries to grab momentum with Volt Switch. I invite you to tell me how that puts it on the same level as meta defining mons like Sawk or Uxie. And with valid arguments this time please, rather than sarcasm...

 

[Evan.]

I would argue that the rise of Seismitoad made Lanturn so good, even after Magneton had left. Also Lanturn is a pretty good klinklang check if it carries T-Wave since it can break a potential Sub with Scald and threaten it with the T-Wave.

Where you really lose me is when you say that its a bad thing Volt Switch forces you out, since that's exactly what you want as the Lanturn user. If Uxie subs or Musharna CMs, it's a great asset that Lanturn can just pivot out with Volt Switch and go into a mon that handles them better. Not to mention your situation only works is if the CM psychic is already in on Lanturn, which doesn't commonly happen because of how free Lanturn is to click Volt Switch.

It doesn't matter if Lanturn doesn't hit hard, the reason that it's ranked so high is that it pretty much guarantees free momentum for the Lanturn user. You say that it tries to grab momentum, it doesn't try, it comes in on something it checks, then gets momentum on literally everything outside of Torterra. The reason why it's so good is that it doesn't have to predict at all to get momentum. It is a high rank for a completely different niche than something like Sawk or Uxie, but that doesn't mean that what it does isn't super important / super useful.

 

[Disjunction]

Except it has. Magneton almost single handedly made Lanturn as popular as it is.

Regardless of losing a now irrelevant niche, Lanturn still manages to find its way onto most every team, providing an invaluable, solid Water-type check and near impossible-to-block momentum because of its secondary STAB in Scald, which either burns or hits a volt blocker super effectively.

Klinklang isn't on the rise, it has always been a solid pick. And Lanturn needs to rely on Scald burning to beat it, which makes it a mediocre check at best.

Klinklang has been steadily rising in usage as the tier's premiere sweeper after being freed from Magneton's power grip and now gaining more recognition as "The Tier's Current Threat To Prepare For" with the banning of Sneasel/Gallade. I agree that Lanturn is a very shaky check, however.

Volt Switching essentially means being forced out, which proves my point. Uxie runs Sub which blocks Toxic or T-wave. Musharna runs Heal Bell and has Synchronize. Nope.

Volt Switching does NOT mean being forced out. Not only do you get switch initiative on a switch, but even if you are getting off a slow Volt Switch, Lanturn gets valuable information on opponent's sets, potential switch initiative again, the ability to bring in a teammate safely, and/or at the very least get off damage. Musharna also does not commonly run Heal Bell while Lanturn does, meaning Synchronize will not help here.

The problem is that Lanturn only checks a limited amount of threats with its resistances and doesn't offer much itself. Slow Volt Switch and Scald essentially. Both laughably weak, even with STAB. No recovery. It never actually gets kills, it just pivots in, takes damage and tries to grab momentum with Volt Switch. I invite you to tell me how that puts it on the same level as meta defining mons like Sawk or Uxie. And with valid arguments this time please, rather than sarcasm...

Lanturn is basically the only Volt Switch blocker in the tier, a niche that was shown to be very popular and relevant within the magnets meta when everybody was scrambling to find ways to stop Magneton from gaining initiative. Now, of course, we don't have a powerful Analytic Volt Switch spammer, but we have several Volt Switchers that would be beyond annoying if Lanturn wasn't a thing. Similarly, Lanturn also provides support as the best Special Water-type check in the tier, a niche that should not be undervalued given how FEW viable Special Water-type checks/counters we have available to us. Scald/Volt Switch shouldn't be underrated. I've already discussed the benefits of Volt Switch, but Scald is similarly useful in the way that even if it is "laughably weak" it has a 30% to bug the opponent for what is likely to be the remainder of the game, negating lefties, halving attack, etc. And finally, Lanturn doesn't need to get kills when its job isn't to GET kills. It is the face of balance, being THE BEST pivot in the tier, having almost NO opportunity cost to be run on balance, alongside Xatu, nowadays.

Also, if you really are concerned about Lanturn getting kills, the Specs set is VERY potent because of its perfect, hard hitting coverage for the tier, while also grabbing momentum with its ability to be forced out

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

Except it has. Magneton almost single handedly made Lanturn as popular as it is.


Klinklang isn't on the rise, it has always been a solid pick. And Lanturn needs to rely on Scald burning to beat it, which makes it a mediocre check at best.



Volt Switching essentially means being forced out, which proves my point. Uxie runs Sub which blocks Toxic or T-wave. Musharna runs Heal Bell and has Synchronize. Nope.



The problem is that Lanturn only checks a limited amount of threats with its resistances and doesn't offer much itself. Slow Volt Switch and Scald essentially. Both laughably weak, even with STAB. No recovery. It never actually gets kills, it just pivots in, takes damage and tries to grab momentum with Volt Switch. I invite you to tell me how that puts it on the same level as meta defining mons like Sawk or Uxie. And with valid arguments this time please, rather than sarcasm...

I don't think I agree with a single sentence in here. magneton made lanturn more popular sure, but I'd argue it made people realize how good lanturn actually is. It checks a huge portion of the tier between its typing and ability to inflict status. I am completely amazed at how you can call lanturn a momentum killer, slow volt switch is incredibly useful for getting powerful but frail threats into the game. and the only thing that can actually block volt switch is other lanturn since ground types have to worry about eating a scald on the switch and taking a ton of damage and/or getting burned. The support lanturn provides its team with slow volt switch, provide at worst a soft check to nearly half the tier, and act as a cleric with heal bell is incredible.

also most uxie are cm + 3 attacks nowadays (even if it is sub it still has to be careful coming in) and if musharna is posing as a wincon then it's not running heal bell (most don't run that regardless) so toxic makes it much easier to deal with.

I think its now insane usage on the ladder is a testament to how splashable it is on teams; the latter quality making it easily A+. Also if you want power specs is good and even offensive AV is an option.

edit: got beat to the spot twice but yeah lol

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Okay I won't reply to everyone individually but it seems most people agree that Volt Switch grabbing momentum is enough to put Lanturn in A+ rank. Fair enough. From my experience Lanturn switchins are incredibly easy to predict. If you have let's say a Pyroar out or I don't know, a Fletchinder (I'm actually having trouble finding a mon that Lanturn reliably beats in the S and A ranks), then you pretty much know your opponent is going to Lanturn. Double into CB Sawk and get a free kill is what usually happens, or sleep something with Lilligant/Vileplume/Exeggutor. Lanturn relies on resistances as while it has solid overall bulk, it can't take many hits because it lacks reliably recovery. Add to that that the stuff that Lanturn checks is often hard to switch in on for other mons thanks to Lanturns unique typing (e.g. Samurott, Klinklang, Pyroar, Gorebyss...). It's also very tempting to come in with Lanturn and grab momentum with Volt Switch, people do it almost mindlessly. Maybe it's just me, but these factors contribute to Lanturn being quite easy to predict. Yes this all requires prediction, but so does Volt Switching against any team with their own Lanturn or a Ground-type. I guess Lanturn is good because the ladder is rather bad, but honestly Lanturn is very easy to take advantage of if you keep in mind that clicking Fire Blast with Pyroar isn't the best idea when Lanturn can just soak it up and grab momentum of your switch. It's not nearly as hard to play around as Sawk or Mesprit or Magmortar or Ludicolo. So the rankings should reflect that, and A- is a good fit.

 

[Pokedots]

If you have let's say a Pyroar out or I don't know, a Fletchinder (I'm actually having trouble finding a mon that Lanturn reliably beats in the S and A ranks), then you pretty much know your opponent is going to Lanturn. Double into CB Sawk and get a free kill is what usually happens, or sleep something with Lilligant/Vileplume/Exeggutor.

Oh you're having trouble? Let me help you: Klinklang, Kabutops (with good prediction), other Lanturn lol, defensive Mawile, non-CM Mesprit, Xatu, defensive and special variants of Carracosta, Fletchinder, Pyroar, Samurott, non-Band Scyther, non-Freeze Dry-locked Aurorus (Blizzard/Hyper Voice are a lot more spammable), Jynx (T-Wave it), Regirock and Rhydon (to be fair can't switch in on latter), Rotom, Specs Swellow.

Yes this all requires prediction, but so does Volt Switching against any team with their own Lanturn or a Ground-type.

Other than Torterra, which is bopped by the common Ice Beam on offensive variants, no Ground-types reliably beat Lanturn. Ban Lanturn wars

It's not nearly as hard to play around as Sawk or Mesprit or Magmortar or Ludicolo. So the rankings should reflect that, and A- is a good fit.

Well of course it's not as hard to play around as powerful offensive Pokemon, Lanturn is ranked as A+ as a defensive threat, and even then, Specs/AV/offensive Lefties Lanturn is actually fairly hard to deal with because of its great coverage (and power if Specs), and it just gains momentum from the Pokemon that do handle it.

Other than this I don't really have much to say, Disjunction and Can-Eh-Dian said much of everything that needed to be said. Keep Lanturn A+

 

[Disjunction]

Okay I won't reply to everyone individually but it seems most people agree that Volt Switch grabbing momentum is enough to put Lanturn in A+ rank. Fair enough. From my experience Lanturn switchins are incredibly easy to predict. If you have let's say a Pyroar out or I don't know, a Fletchinder (I'm actually having trouble finding a mon that Lanturn reliably beats in the S and A ranks), then you pretty much know your opponent is going to Lanturn. Double into CB Sawk and get a free kill is what usually happens, or sleep something with Lilligant/Vileplume/Exeggutor. Lanturn relies on resistances as while it has solid overall bulk, it can't take many hits because it lacks reliably recovery. Add to that that the stuff that Lanturn checks is often hard to switch in on for other mons thanks to Lanturns unique typing (e.g. Samurott, Klinklang, Pyroar, Gorebyss...). It's also very tempting to come in with Lanturn and grab momentum with Volt Switch, people do it almost mindlessly. Maybe it's just me, but these factors contribute to Lanturn being quite easy to predict. Yes this all requires prediction, but so does Volt Switching against any team with their own Lanturn or a Ground-type. I guess Lanturn is good because the ladder is rather bad, but honestly Lanturn is very easy to take advantage of if you keep in mind that clicking Fire Blast with Pyroar isn't the best idea when Lanturn can just soak it up and grab momentum of your switch. It's not nearly as hard to play around as Sawk or Mesprit or Magmortar or Ludicolo. So the rankings should reflect that, and A- is a good fit.

Sawk shouldn't be A+ or S. I know it's going to click Close Combat every time so I will just switch into my Vileplume and counter it. I think its rank should reflect that and it should be B+.

The prediction argument works for every Pokemon on the viability ranks. Every player has the ability to make a double or predict a switch. Yes, Lanturn does not have reliable recovery, if it did it would be S+ and on every team in the tier. However, it doesn't need reliable recovery when it has enough bulk to last most of the match and can still provide invaluable support the entire time. Yes, clicking Volt Switch is a prediction when the opponent has a Ground-type/Lightningrod user on their team, but by nature of Scald, there will often be a pretty high chance they click Scald because of its low opportunity cost in 9/10 scenarios. If Scald didn't burn or the majority of our Volt Switch blockers weren't so weak to Scald, I would agree Lanturn isn't hard to switch into.

Similarly, Lanturn also has teammates it can pair up with to beat its checks (which it can just Volt Switch into, as opposed to risky doubles). Lanturn/Xatu is popular because Xatu, on top of invalidating Spikes that Lanturn hates, also covers the second most common switch in to Lanturn (second to Lanturn)- Grass-types. Xatu also has the ability to U-turn, which can gain more momentum into Lanturn (typically bringing it in for free) which is how Balance teams are played, and a big part of why Lanturn is as good as it is.

 

[Cheryl.]

Okay, this might be a weird nomination considering all the Lanturn talk, but I want Fletchinder to rise to A+. While this may be a CM meta, Fighting types are still top threats and Fletchinder can beat all of them with it's priority Acrobatics. Fletch can perform a sweep with Swords Dance too. Ypu might think Klingklang rising migjt be bad for it, but Klingklang hates a burn and Fletch can even lure it with Overheat (Dont use Flame Charge, it's weak, ruins the point of priority Acro and Roost, and forces you to take Iron Barbs damage from Ferroseed) The 4x SR weakness hurts Fletchinder, but if u have good Defog or Rapid Spin support, you'll be good. While some popular pokemon like Lanturn and Quagsire hurt Fletchinder, it's really nice in this meta and IMO deserves a rise. edit: you can even run natural gift to beat quag and carrocosta

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Sawk shouldn't be A+ or S. I know it's going to click Close Combat every time so I will just switch into my Vileplume and counter it. I think its rank should reflect that and it should be B+.

The prediction argument works for every Pokemon on the viability ranks. Every player has the ability to make a double or predict a switch.

If you decide to make the safe play against a VoltTurn team throughout the whole match and never predict, it's not going to end well for you. Normally I wouldn't use the prediction argument but in this case I feel like I can get away with it since it's such a linear playstyle. You have to be wary that Lanturn can grab momentum but like I said that's not all that difficult to do as it's so predictable. And so far that's been the only really substantial argument for keeping it in A+. Predicting against Sawk is a whole other story. If you predict wrong you essentially lose a mon, sometimes it doesn't even matter if you predict because there's so little mons that live both banded CC and Knock Off. If you don't predict against Lanturn, at worst you lose momentum. And keep in mind, that weak Volt Switch actually has to threaten whatever you're up against or else you're also in a prediction scenario. With emphasis on weak:

0 SpA Lanturn Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 127-153 (36 - 43.4%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes that's partially thanks to Solid Rock, but Carracosta has base 65 SpDef which is nothing short of bad. I can even get up rocks after dropping a Toxic on the switch with health to spare.

It's just not as good as people are making it out to be. Seems to be a lot of hype and little substance. But I give credit to the people that try to make this a good argument.

 

[kay]

I think the hype is well justified. The tier lacks solid water resists, so having a good one that also has so many perks ranging from slow volt switches, immunity to electricity, being able to wall threats such as fletchinder and pyroar(non sepcs), strong STAB options that synergies well with each other, utility in the forms of heal bell/ twave/ toxic, so so many other factors that make this mon good. And I don't think the whole 'it's easy to predict' factor helps. Even if you know it's going to volt switch, we only have 1 ground type in tort that can actually switch into it (assuming it doesn't have ice beam) so it doesn't even really lose a lot from just straight clicking volt switch every time.

I don't know why you bother pointing out the power of an uninvested volt switch. The goal of it isn't to do heavy damage to whatever comes it, but rather to gain momentum from whatever they switch in. If you really wanted to point out it's lack of power, try calcing the choice specs sets instead, as those main sets are to do damage. Overall I don't see any reason to drop Lanturn. It's solid.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Okay, this might be a weird nomination considering all the Lanturn talk, but I want Fletchinder to rise to A+. While this may be a CM meta, Fighting types are still top threats and Fletchinder can beat all of them with it's priority Acrobatics. Fletch can perform a sweep with Swords Dance too. Ypu might think Klingklang rising migjt be bad for it, but Klingklang hates a burn and Fletch can even lure it with Overheat (Dont use Flame Charge, it's weak, ruins the point of priority Acro and Roost, and forces you to take Iron Barbs damage from Ferroseed) The 4x SR weakness hurts Fletchinder, but if u have good Defog or Rapid Spin support, you'll be good. While some popular pokemon like Lanturn and Quagsire hurt Fletchinder, it's really nice in this meta and IMO deserves a rise. edit: you can even run natural gift to beat quag and carrocosta

Adding onto this, Fletchinder isn't just a one trick pony. The SpD Evio set with WoW, Roost, Taunt, and Acro/Fly is also extremely effective. Other than Monferno, it's the only fire type in the tier with non-Wish priority, which greatly increases it's longevity. Plus, unlike our resident fire monkey, it's Roost gets priority. This can be huge for stalling out Special attackers or physical attackers without a burn.

Here's a great calc showing how much Fletch can tank:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Eviolite Fletchinder: 186-220 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And, yes, I know that's still a 2hko, and with rocks it does kill. However, when you factor Roost in that damage is halved, and Fletch is free after a few turns to either burn Aurorus or something coming in.
This isn't the best matchup obviously, but this calc shows how much of a tank it can be.

 

[Realistic Waters]

Physically defensive Fletch is also pretty great too as it can take on large number of physical attackers and set up mons including Sawk, Hariyama, Gurdurr, Kangaskan, CroDino, Mushy, Mawile, Pinsir, ferroseed, Garbodor, Sandslash and the list goes on... bulky fire types are always pretty good in general. And knock off isn't the biggest worry either since it gives you full powered acrobatics after. Shoutout to Disjunction for innovating it xd

 

[Steakburgers]

I'm seeing all this hype for klinklang but i don't understand why
It still feels really meh, facing it and using it
Its sub is still easily broken by a good multitude of mons, all very viable, and after they break sub, they can kill
Garbo is still an amazingly potent mon, and klinklang can barely do crap to it
Lanturn as well
Most fighting types still don't give a crap, and mons like kabutops can take a gear grind, and be able to outspeed and kill right after

 

[Punchshroom]

I'm seeing all this hype for klinklang but i don't understand why
It still feels really meh, facing it and using it
Its sub is still easily broken by a good multitude of mons, all very viable, and after they break sub, they can kill
Garbo is still an amazingly potent mon, and klinklang can barely do crap to it
Lanturn as well
Most fighting types still don't give a crap, and mons like kabutops can take a gear grind, and be able to outspeed and kill right after

Wait you really don't understand how one of the best / most dangerous wincons in the tier has attained its popularity?
- Can you name these 'multitude of mons' that can break the Substitute and KO Klinklang, because I'm pretty sure Klinklang would have no business setting up on them in the first place. Substitute is primarily meant to shield Klinklang from status from mons like Ferroseed and Musharna, letting Gears set up in their faces. Occasionally Substitute can even be used to bait Close Combats, Volt Switches, or even simple LO recoil from foes to put them in unfavorable situations / killing range.
- Klinklang is the reason Garbodor carries Drain Punch, as Garbo would be turned into easy setup fodder otherwise.
- Bulky Fighting-types may be able to stop a boosted Klinklang, but frailer offensive ones can't even respond to Klinklang, especially given Klinklang can OHKO Sawk right through its Sturdy.
- The bolded part is what really baffles me regarding your understanding of Klinklang. At what point would Klinklang be attacking Kabutops without a) outright killing it and b) getting outsped right after? For that matter, how would Kabutops claim to "kill Klinklang right after" given Klinklang's respectable physical bulk (LO Adamant Waterfall does a mere 50-60%)?

Klinklang's great typing + good bulk (easy setup opportunities) and boosting move + decent offensive stats (easy sweeping opportunity) definitely make it a forced to be reckoned with; it is mainly let down by its poor early-/mid-game presence, as it is often forced to sit back on the sidelines for a good portion of the match or it risks blowing its chance of sweeping otherwise and becoming a liability at that point.

Liarliarpantsonfire What's needed to be said has already been stated, but Lanturn rose to fame partly because of Magneton's presence, but most primarily because there was no more Seismitoad holding it back. Between Lanturn's terrific resistances and excellent supportive moves (Scald, Volt Switch, Heal Bell), Lanturn already makes for one of the best pivots in the tier. If that weren't enough, Lanturn's coverage and movepool are solid enough to attempt a more offensive variant, should the pivot set be too passive (or in your case, weak) for your tastes. This makes Lanturn remarkably splashable for a lot of teams as it can easily fulfill various roles at once.

Your argument about double switching CB Sawk into Lanturn which weakens the latter's ranking is baffling to say the least (wouldn't this apply to literally everything, like say double switching your Flying-type into Golurk or Sawk or whatever on a Rock / Steel switch-in?), but you don't seem to understand how tricky it can be to stop Lanturn from performing its role. Let's say the Lanturn switches in successfully on your Pyroar / Fletchinder, in the event that you were forced to make the predictable attack to stop something like Lilligant from steamrolling you. Do you know what the Lanturn is going to do? You know Lanturn can either Scald or Volt Switch: how many Pokemon do you know can claim to stop both? Your Sawk may not take an asston of damage from either of those moves, but it certainly doesn't want to take them due to the consequences. There are certainly Pokemon that can stop one of the two, but won't be able to shrug off the other; Electric immune Pokemon take substantial damage from Scald and/or risk getting burned, while Water immune Pokemon risk getting pitted against an unfavorable matchup and lose momentum. This isn't even including other moves Lanturn has at its disposal, such as Ice Beam and Thunder Wave, which only makes your choice of switch-ins that much trickier. Yes, it is possible to play around Lanturn, but the fact that you usually need more than one Pokemon to even properly discourage Lanturn from spamming its incredibly safe attacks (and even then it can still be a gamble) says more than I could about how simple of a Pokemon Lanturn can be to use. Lanturn's lack of reliable recovery is practically the only thing holding it back from S, otherwise it could feasibly pull off its shenanigans for far longer.

Now for my own nomination:

A- to A+

Let's be real; this has been a long time coming. With the threat of being popped by Sneasel no longer a looming possibility on every corner, Jynx should reclaim her pedestal as one of the most dangerous balance breakers in the tier, and she is almost unrivaled in that capacity. We all know what makes Jynx such an utterly potent threat: Lovely Kiss, terrific power, two killer STABs (one of which is good enough to let her go mono), unresisted coverage, a powerful boosting move in Nasty Plot, a great Speed tier, and even defensive utility in Dry Skin. Jynx even has good set diversity, and every single one of them is a veritable threat that is not to be trifled with. LO 3 attacks just dismantles cores like nobody's business, Scarf can pick off shit easily with its coverage + Lovely Kiss (Jynx can even try Frost Breath to revenge Lilligants without a hitch and prevent CMers from setting up in its face @3@), SubNP / SubKiss capitalizes on that weak link with crazy punishing potential, even Sash can trip up foes in various ways your opponent won't know where to look. While Jynx's Speed tier isn't so insane that she is particularly hard to revenge kill, Jynx still has a favorable matchup against offense compared to most wallbreakers by virtue of her Speed, Water immunity, and of course that Lovely Kiss, so there is rarely a moment of relief when Jynx is present on the field, which of course the A- Rank and even the A Rank doesn't do her justice for.

 

[Cheryl.]

So, can we get some talk on Huntail and Gorebyss? I think we should unrank Huntail because SmashPass was it's greatest niche and CoilPass is sort of meh, if we keep it ranked it should be C- or D. Gorebyss could drop too, but not that far down, it stands out as the only special attacking Shell Smasher and with a powerful 114 special attack at that. Only problems are bad speed and subpar special bulk, but I think Gorebyss is still cool, keep it B+ or maybe drop down to B or B-. (It also is usable on rain teams due to Swift Swim, so it has that too.)

 

[kay]

Huntail is still relevant due to Sucker Punch and coil passing. I don't see the need to drop it all the way to unranked, or even below Gorebyss for that matter.

 

[Tato2772]

yo i want to nominate
LIEPARD-->A/A+
to start with, it has the 3rd most powerful STAB knock off in the tier only behind kecleon and malamar which is really noice, above that it it also gets STAB sucker punch which is a nice safety bag for late game, it also gets encore+u-turn which is a solid combo to force pokemon out and u-turn out to get switch initiative. Of course we all know this but the reason i want to nominate it is because it has been my answer to those pesty calm minders that are rising on usage with sneasel gone. Encoreing them into calm mind and proceed to knock off/u turn getting switch advantage on their switch or into a phaser in case they stay in, is imo the best and safest answer to cmers right now. Not to forget that its speed tier is above average. Not to mention it has other random uses for encore like against stealth rockers for example. Liepard is one of the best momentum gainers in the meta and i think it should rise. :]

P.D. Its my first post in a while so dont be so harsh on me

 

[Deej Dy]

If you still aren't convinced Klingklang is S

 

[Teddeh]

So I've played a bit and can see some nominations that I feel are very just right now:

Vileplume B -> A-/A: It's quite a jump I know, but without gallade, sneasel, typhlosion, mega-camerupt (basically everything that was banned in the last few tests), Vileplume has improved considerably. Its defensive set is very good right now acting as a very good klinklang check if running hp fire, it's a knock off absorber and an amazing fighting type answer. It's not having to worry about a psycho cut second stab or icicle crash and fire types in this tier are on the low right now since lanturn is on every team making them very ineffective. Due to reliable recovery it just sits there and annoys teams whilst spreading status and it's the plant that never dies. The only concern is calm mind psychics however they find it hard switching in on a sludge bomb at the risk of a poison. Definitely an A rank mon right now imo.

rotom A- -> A: It's a power house right now and it's lost the main thing that stopped it from doing its job effectively in sneasel. Offers a solid klinklang check aswell as pivot, dual stabs helps against lanturn and in general deserves a higher rank.

Clefairy Unranked -> C+: Not sure why it isn't ranked when it offers some huge niches in this meta. Offers undeniable team support with t-wave, stealth rock, reliable recovery + fairy typing is extremely good. You could even use a CM set. It's extremely underrated and I highly suggest you use it before commenting on this nom.

 

[soulgazer]

As part of the Big Bad Booty Gang, I oppose the nomination of Clefairy to C+:

- It's not cute.
- Loses to common Pokemon such as AV Hariyama.
- No offensive presence; Big Bad Booty Daddy doesn't like 'mons without offensive presence.

I will let my Daddy explain the rest to you.

HOLLA IF YOU HEAR ME

 

[Omfuga]

no it doesn't it cant ohko half the tier at +6 LOL

 

[Venoxio]

I can't argue with the fact that victreebel's sun set is purely terrible when sun is not up (although sludge bomb is still nowhere near weak). But I don't think it matters that much as the only times you'll encounter those situations are if you don't run a sunny day team or your sun is depleted.

This is the reason right here that Bell cannot rise very high on the rankings; it's 100% reliant on team support, which is not a trait of, say, B ranks. The higher ranks should be the ones providing team support, not the other way around.

Also you mentioned that sucker punchers dont apply to Victreebell since it has sleep powder; the most powerful sucker puncher in the tier is immune to it, and Ludicolo can certainly chew Kangaskhan's non-STAB sucker. I've also played sun for a good two hundred games on p much the same team ( Don't kill me Deej and the Sunshade Co. ) and I wouldnt run Sleep Powder in the first place; that's better left for Exeggutor. If you're going to use Victreebell on a sun team, you should abuse growth like there's no tomorrow.

Again, Victreebell is a beast under the sun no doubt. Omastar is even more terrifying in rain, and it's ranked B flat in OU solely because it's shit without the weather. Victreebell without sun, on the other hand, is a pile of shit that has been shat in the fall and reveals itself once the snow melts; B-

People will probably disagree with me on this, but I feel B- is not a good spot for Victreebel. B would be where I would place it. Omastar actually is fairly predictable, due to only being viable as a rain special sweeper, not to mention it is slower then Victreebel. On the other hand, the flytrap thing is somewhat versatile, as it has good mixed attacking stats, priority, and can setup sun on switches. A sun setter is highly preferred, but it dosen't have to be done. Not to mention it has a base 120 power 1-turn attacking move in sun, and it even has, though overlooked, Encore.

 

[Cased]

CM clefairy has offensive presence._

Any Pokemon with a boosting move essentially has offensive presence, but I wouldn't say something like a CroDino has offensive presence. Being outclassed by Mawile which is Fairy, aided by Steel-typing and a favorable nature regarding Intimidate makes it a better choice than Clefairy more often than not. Also I'm not a big fan of Stealth Rock Pokemon that roll over and die to Xatu, same with Calm Mind Pokemon like Clefairy, Clefairy can't win the CM War because it's not strong enough and realistically every Calm Mind Psychic in this tier carries Psyshock.

Now that I'm referred to by the millions as the Big Bad, Booty Daddy. I must say Clefairy is a C- at most. It's buns and outclassed lol

 

[Kiyo]

guys if we're gonna nom 'shit' mons like victreebel to go higher can we at least make not shit arguments for it

• you cant argue weather ball as a main sellign point and then say sun support isn't necessary, only preferred
• cacturne might be the "most powerful sucker punch user in the tier" but its not all that common and its definitely not the most common sucker punch user
• please dont compare mons in nu to shit like omastar that isn't even in the tier anymore, and for fucks sake dont use its VR ranking in OU as an argument (not only are p much all vr's shit for all tiers, but all the meta's are different and mons and playstyles function differently. i mean ffs theres auto rain in OU ofc omastar is gonna be higher than victreebel in nu)
• have either of you even had success using victreebel? like ladder is shit so its tough to say where you can start having success but holding a 75+ GXE and usign it in games around 1350+ on ladder is a good start, quite frankly the way you're saying things like "you should abuse growth like no tomorrow" "you dont even need sun support" etc. make me take your pitiful arguments even less seriously because they detract from whatever good points you may have made.

obviously i'm addressing both of you guys here, so theres points from both sides, but this thread looks like two toddlers arguing over whether 2+2 equals 5 or 3. make educated arguments and if you're not educated, don't post until you are. its really quite simple, the VRs are meant to be a resource for newer players to learn whats decent in the metagame, not for newer players to argue over what the best mon that can win a ladder match at 1035 is. sorry if i'm out of line guys, but i just don't understand how people can take this thread seriously sometimes.

edit: and can we please stop with the one line shit posts, and the one line posts that advertise blatantly incorrect things...

edit2: for what its worth i agree with victreebel's nom, SJ knows his shit. i didn't actually read the original nom after the shit posting started