Just saying, you would rather hit and switch out of Ferrothorn than stay in and X-Scissor. Ferro threatens to OHKO you with Gyro Ball or cripple you with T-Wave, so it's not worth chunking it for more damage and leaving your MBee vulnerable. Furthermore, most offensive 'mons weak to Bug would get OHKO'd by U-turn anyways, whereas most fatter 'mons wouldn't get OHKO'd by X-Scissor anyways.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Flamer
- Start date
- Status
Just saying, you would rather hit and switch out of Ferrothorn than stay in and X-Scissor. Ferro threatens to OHKO you with Gyro Ball or cripple you with T-Wave, so it's not worth chunking it for more damage and leaving your MBee vulnerable. Furthermore, most offensive 'mons weak to Bug would get OHKO'd by U-turn anyways, whereas most fatter 'mons wouldn't get OHKO'd by X-Scissor anyways.
We're on the topic "Mega Bee," I want to say my opinion on it in this metagame. Mega beedrill is a good offensive pivot & revenge killer, has great speed that allows him to overcome many pokemon fast as mega lopunny, this Pokemon also has many disadvantages, such as being weak in rocks, have a very fragile typing, for this mega bee is completely outclassed by mega Scizor, which in comparison has a better typing, is a great revenge killer using + SD bullet punch, is not weak to rocks, and has roost, allowing him to be more long-lived, this was just a I thought that I wanted to write since this is a discussion about the metagame, good day to all ^^
other than being bug types, there are very few similarities between megazor and megabee from a competetive standpoint. They fulfill completely different roles on a team, one a more defensively based cleaner and catch all check and the other a fast offensive Uturner designed to force switch initiative from the threat of adaptability boosted STABs. A better comparison would be a fast offensive voltturner such as Megaman or even scarf lando-t.
There is one reason I use Mega Beedrill, not Mega Scizor. I CAN'T SEEM TO USE IT RIGHT!! Whenever I use him, something has HP Fire, (same goes for Beedrill...), and I know Mega Scizor outclasses Mega Beedrill, it's just I've gotten used to Mega Beedrill, and have never used Scizor OR Mega Scizor well. I dunno, it's just a problem with me. So, basically Me: Mega Beedrill > Mega Scizor Most People: Mega Beedrill < Mega Scizor
Sucker Punch Weavile and Ferrothorn that are weak to Bug? Crazy times. The main issue I see with MegaBee is that Helmet Lando-T just destroys it. I mean, Bee takes over 40% just from U-turning out with Rocks+Helmet and Lando isn't really gonna take much. And all the offensive teams it's supposed to threaten have either that Lando or Priority and when Bee switches out it fears Pursuit from something like Bisharp threatening the actual Sucker Punch. It also loses 1 vs 1 against Lopunny even without Fake Out being live and can't revenge kill it after switching into Rocks twice assuming Lop has Quick Attack.
So yeah, MegaBee fares pretty poorly in this meta and requires an obscene amount of support to do anything, even though it partners well with some of the best mons in OU like Lando-T and Rotom-W, but then again, what mon doesn't? Lopunny is the better choice most of the time when a fast physical attacking mega is needed, but personally I would prefer Mega Scizors SD-turn set as it has way more utility and is much more self-dependent.
On another note, I have used fast dual status Rotom-W recently as a less passive check to Fire and Steel types and it worked pretty well. Most Bisharp assume they can Knock you off and out, but fast WoW is gonna ruin that plan. Some Lando-T also like to U-turn out instead of hard switching given that they're most commonly faster, so you can catch that as well. Max speed Adamant Scizor is also crippled, as it tries to Bug Bite. That set sacrifices quite some bulk, but you shouldn't let it take Play Roughs or Secret Swords anyway and it still checks Exca, Tflame, all that good stuff.
So yeah, MegaBee fares pretty poorly in this meta and requires an obscene amount of support to do anything, even though it partners well with some of the best mons in OU like Lando-T and Rotom-W, but then again, what mon doesn't? Lopunny is the better choice most of the time when a fast physical attacking mega is needed, but personally I would prefer Mega Scizors SD-turn set as it has way more utility and is much more self-dependent.
On another note, I have used fast dual status Rotom-W recently as a less passive check to Fire and Steel types and it worked pretty well. Most Bisharp assume they can Knock you off and out, but fast WoW is gonna ruin that plan. Some Lando-T also like to U-turn out instead of hard switching given that they're most commonly faster, so you can catch that as well. Max speed Adamant Scizor is also crippled, as it tries to Bug Bite. That set sacrifices quite some bulk, but you shouldn't let it take Play Roughs or Secret Swords anyway and it still checks Exca, Tflame, all that good stuff.
What do you guys think about rock polish diancie in the current meta
Diancie in general has risen the ranks, as it was (to some extent) previously outclassed by Hoopa-Unbound, who has now been banned to Ubers. However, one can see that the Rock Polish set is A- in the viability rankings whereas its regular 'offensive' set is A+. This makes sense, as the current meta is shifting towards bulkier, slower teams, so Diancie would usually outspeed other 'mons anyway. And although the Rock Polish set allows you to have more power in your attacks, Rock Polish sacrifices a moveslot and a turn, so the enemy can easily switch into a Pokemon like Mega Scizor or Ferrothorn, viability rank A+ and A respectively. Mega Scizor, in particular, one of the most used and powerful mega Pokemon, has a priority attack so it can even take care of HP Fire Mega Diancie.
Mega diancie was one of the most used to check Hoopa, though now Mdiancie is a bit disadvantaged given the presence of many more water in the metagame, and the omnipresence of a steel in the team, but nevertheless it is a lethal Wallbreaker, that makes a lot of damage for offensive team, rock polish set has needed a lot of support, indeed the "Protect set" set is much more effective, because it manages to have in the set also a filler move to beat her checks. after this, I think the metagame is becoming more favorable for Mdiancie, given the presence of many pursuit trapper, and the entry of Volcanion in ou
Just want to say that Rock Polish Mega Diancie is sorta bad and very team specific. The sheer utility that Protect gives it is huge and it basically necessitates that you have some kind of hazard stack going on to actually clean up really well, even endgame when you should Rock Polish. The presence of Waters decreasing it's viability is kinda wrong seeing as how a Moonblast 2HKOes most of the popular ones in the metagame and you've got Diamond Storm for things like Volcanion, and none aren't exactly faster than it bar Scarf Keldeo (& Azu's AJ) or other random Water-type Scarfers.
Also Magnezone + Beedrill is an awful core imo. Why waste your Steel-slot on Zone when you use something more useful like Jirachi or Heatran. I see that you can trap other Steels with it, but it's honestly not that hard to pressure them to hell and back these days.
What does everyone think of Starmie? 4 Attacks is definetly the best set now imo
Also Magnezone + Beedrill is an awful core imo. Why waste your Steel-slot on Zone when you use something more useful like Jirachi or Heatran. I see that you can trap other Steels with it, but it's honestly not that hard to pressure them to hell and back these days.
What does everyone think of Starmie? 4 Attacks is definetly the best set now imo
Starmie's coverage is just so nice, and being able to blow back switchins with Analytic is great for Starmie. Although Pursuit trapping is still really prevalent, Starmie has enough advantages to warrant a slot on a team nowadays. I personally like either LO 3 Attacks + Recover, or even LO 2 Attacks + Spin + Recover if I need a dedicated spinner that isn't balls like Bulky Starmie is (imo).
i agree starmie is prob one of the best spinners in the tier right now. also it can take advantage of slower pursuit trappers with reflect type. has the option of running screens. its not limited to what it can do and thats why i like it.
Spinning in general isn't great now because it tends to generate loss of momentum. The best spinner is sand rush excadrill. Defensive starmie doesn't force enough switches. Add to the fact that ghosts prevent spinning and you have problems.
Defog is definitely superior because things like zapdos, latias and skarmory force switches with their typing and things like mew and scizor have the bulk to get the defog off.
Defog is definitely superior because things like zapdos, latias and skarmory force switches with their typing and things like mew and scizor have the bulk to get the defog off.
Honestly sand rush excadrill has better things to do than waste turns spinning imo. I mean, sand usually has lati anyway. Also neither Sab nor Gengar like switching into analytic boosted hydro so spinblocking really isn't a thing right now. That being said yeah I agree on defog > spinning, it's just way easier to fit in a lati on teams than starmie or exca.
I don't really think duel screens are particularly effective right now, especially not on starmie. You sacrifice two very valuable moveslots and an item, and starmie has very poor bulk for a screens setter. If you're determined to run screens regardless, you should at least use a good setter like klefki or something.
As for reflect type, I'm not really a fan of that either as you again lose an important moveslot. Also it takes prediction to effectively reflect type as scarftar outspeeds you regardless so you need to get it on the switch. I guess it's good for bish or mzor or whatever but trying to trap starmie with them isnt a great idea in the first place because LO boosted hydro fucking hurts.
As for reflect type, I'm not really a fan of that either as you again lose an important moveslot. Also it takes prediction to effectively reflect type as scarftar outspeeds you regardless so you need to get it on the switch. I guess it's good for bish or mzor or whatever but trying to trap starmie with them isnt a great idea in the first place because LO boosted hydro fucking hurts.
starmie doesnt just drop like excadrill to two or more attacks and is weak to almost every priority at least starmie can reflect type rapid spin on mons like bisharp and choice locked ttars. also it has reliable recover unlike excadrill. thats why i think its better.
What is unfortunate is that defensive starmie gets more usage than analytic despite being so much worse. It has far less spin opportunities because they usually don't even run psychic coverage. Meaning all gengar has to worry about is a weak scald and sableye is always a free switch.
anyway what do you guys screens klefki on offensive teams
i think you're wrong about saying that spinning isnt't good bluemargay, especially when comparing stuff like starmie as a hazard remover to pokemon like latias. in fact i think starmie is one of the best users of removing hazards in the meta right now. i find offensive starmie to be pretty bad in this general meta with how high the speed curve has gotten and the fact that one of starmies redeeming factors on the bulky set is the ability to switch into keldeo and that sort of thing, it's not even that strong with lorb unless I guess you're using hyper offense which it can work on for sure. on any other team however, i think defensive is almost always the correct set. you said it lacks the ability to force switches but that's not true. a lot of teams just have trouble taking on a fat starmie bc 1) they can't kill it in one and 2) it's faster than all their stuff so it's able to get off the spins or scald. offense will rarely have trouble with starmie because starmie is so weak but im referencing more of the balance / semistall team. cores like slowbro / tangrowth / heatran can be easily annoyed by starmie since it throws out toxic to stop the "counters" and can come in on heatran easily. an example i can think of off the top of my head is when i played xray for st playoffs, his team was Terrakion / Latios / Landorus-Therian / Heatran / Slowbro / Tangrowth which in general just fits the build of a solid safe bulky offensive team. that being said his team really seems to struggle with dealing with starmie. terrakion is slower and has to risk taking scald while also not being able to ohko, landorus-t is scarf but cant switch in, slowbro, tangrowth, and heatran are toxiced and scalded respectively which means they aren't going to want to come into starmie multiple times, and latios is the only real counter which is able to take any hit and threaten the ohko with draco, but even then latios doesn't like taking so much residual especially when for most bulky offensive teams like that, it is the form of hazard removal. that's not to mention that starmie can also run reflect type to sort of deal with ttar, altho i don't think that set is as good as toxic by any means, it just works in specific situations vs the opponent. in terms of ghosts preventing spinning, i'm not sure what you're referencing. mega sableye would be the premier ghost but thats stopping starmie regardless and even then, you scald burn sableye and now it actually fails to check you or anything else with it losing hp from burn plus taking 20-24 from a scald each turn. gengar isn't used very much these days but even then it can't switch in on scald because it's just get outrun and taken down. for other ghosts i guess you have jellicent, but that will just get toxiced and be put on a timer. back to starmie's ability to spin though, i find it to be one of the better forms of hazard removal, i think latios will always be the "best" form of hazard removal even though sand drill is more guranteed with it, although it is much easier to fit a defog latios on a team than it is to use sand drill since sand builds with drill are usually more restricting. that being said starmie is still very good at getting the job done and has the necessary to bulk to come in on fatter mons and get rid of hazards / threaten with scald to help mons in the back take advantage of a burned check.
Well the rise of zapdos really hurts klefki because unless klefki has toxic, zapdos spits in its face.
In the case of sand exca, though? With limited turns of sand it really wants to be sweeping, not to mention you have to give up sd if you want to run spin... and in a meta with lots of helmet lando etc, you really need sd these days.
And yeah bulky starmie is the best spinner right now, rt + scald getting it past bish and ferro is really neat
And yeah bulky starmie is the best spinner right now, rt + scald getting it past bish and ferro is really neat
Screens Klefki is horrid for pretty obvious reasons, while Klefki itself is still pretty good since its the best spiker in the tier that fits very well on offense. With the shift to more bulky offense rather than goons, Skarmory is starting to see more usage since it fits decently well on that archetype.
I don't really like Recover Starmie since its frail as paper and even resisted hits like Spex Keldeo's Hydro Pump do well over 50%. These days hazard removal is commonly forewent since the pool of actually good hazard removers is depressingly small and i don't think hazard removal is too necessary these days unless you use something like Talonflame. A lot hazard removers would rather be doing something else like Skarm would rather be setting Spikes and 3 Attacks + Roost Latios is awesome while Defog is just a waste imo. I've seen a few Mega Latias with Defog, but it's terrible to dedicate your Mega Slot to Defog, while Calm Mind is incredible rn.
Spin Excadrill is fine imo, if you need it on Sand its easy to fill in gaps that SD Exca filled. Then you've got Scarf which is actually pretty fine and most commonly known as going complete low ladder lol, but being able to spam EQ after actual Flying-types are eliminated it's hard to regain your footing.
I don't really like Recover Starmie since its frail as paper and even resisted hits like Spex Keldeo's Hydro Pump do well over 50%. These days hazard removal is commonly forewent since the pool of actually good hazard removers is depressingly small and i don't think hazard removal is too necessary these days unless you use something like Talonflame. A lot hazard removers would rather be doing something else like Skarm would rather be setting Spikes and 3 Attacks + Roost Latios is awesome while Defog is just a waste imo. I've seen a few Mega Latias with Defog, but it's terrible to dedicate your Mega Slot to Defog, while Calm Mind is incredible rn.
Spin Excadrill is fine imo, if you need it on Sand its easy to fill in gaps that SD Exca filled. Then you've got Scarf which is actually pretty fine and most commonly known as going complete low ladder lol, but being able to spam EQ after actual Flying-types are eliminated it's hard to regain your footing.
Last edited:
Great to see I'm not the only one running reflect type Starmie, this guy ruins lifes like nobody's business, I personally love to outspeed Keldeo or Garchomp passing a Bluff on base 110 posing as offensive starmie but once the pursuit trapper comes or the standard water resist comes a reflect type effectively destroys the momentum of your opponent.
It's a great choice for teams that hate both bisharp and grass types in general with the choice of using a Pokemon that doesn't give a squat about scald.
Bulky starmie outspeeding Garchomp is for me one of the greatest spinners in OU, the ability to not give a damn about scalds thanks to natural cure, pose as an offensive threat to Gengar on team preview and ruin band tar, mega Venusaur and bisharp days is really well received.
It's a great choice for teams that hate both bisharp and grass types in general with the choice of using a Pokemon that doesn't give a squat about scald.
Bulky starmie outspeeding Garchomp is for me one of the greatest spinners in OU, the ability to not give a damn about scalds thanks to natural cure, pose as an offensive threat to Gengar on team preview and ruin band tar, mega Venusaur and bisharp days is really well received.
- Status