Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

3 Atts + Sub is the main one, but things like RestTalk have been shown to be useful.

It's just so good against stall, thanks to being able to consistently deny everything (especially RestTalk). And it tears apart most balanced defensive cores
 
whats the best set on mega heracross? Also, what makes it good in the current metagame? it used to be quite low on the viability ranking, if I remember correctly.
3 Attacks + Substitute works pretty well, but there's another one with 3 attacks+rest which plays really well against stall( You dont really need sleep talk like HC mentioned for stall since they cant really hit u with anything hard other than weavile)
 

Finchinator

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What is the point in an OU Suspect test while we get a new generation in this moth?
In addition to what the above poster said, it's not like the tier will just disappear. There will still be games of every type in the tier -- or at least the option of having them. There will be an ORAS OU ladder, an option to challenge ORAS OU for friendly/test games, and, of course, ORAS OU in tournaments ranging from SPL/WCOP to some random Tournaments running in that sub forum depending on the format. Therefore, we want to make the tier the best it possibly can be before it stops being the main generation in a week.
 
whats everyones opinion on nasty plot slowking? i been using it and its actually good. it takes hits from latios, tornadus, diance , medicham , metagross. sweeps teams that struggle with bulky waters and has good offensive presence. i like it a lot
Honestly I feel that if you can get the setup off then this thing could be really good. You could definitely run Trick Room on it for the most effective set in terms of setup and/or attacking, and running Scald and Psyshock can cover both defensively bulky and specially bulky Mons. And even if you're up against a Mon who's bulky in both aspects, Scald's 30% burn chance will help to wear it down. Overall Slowking is definitely underrated, especially Nasty Plot Slowking, because Bulk + High SpA + Trick Room (Low Speed) = A SetUp Special Sweeper who can stall your opponent's team.
 
In addition to what the above poster said, it's not like the tier will just disappear. There will still be games of every type in the tier -- or at least the option of having them. There will be an ORAS OU ladder, an option to challenge ORAS OU for friendly/test games, and, of course, ORAS OU in tournaments ranging from SPL/WCOP to some random Tournaments running in that sub forum depending on the format. Therefore, we want to make the tier the best it possibly can be before it stops being the main generation in a week.
Thank you for that explanation, i didnt think of that. But, without taking a stand on the suspect , isnt it weird if you want to play the oras meta but pokemon that were in the meta the whole time arent available?
 
rip Mega Sableye, made it to the last day of the generation.

What megas should stall run now? I've been experimenting with Altaria and its ok, not great bulk but good resistances.
 
rip Mega Sableye, made it to the last day of the generation.

What megas should stall run now? I've been experimenting with Altaria and its ok, not great bulk but good resistances.
I prefer bulky zard X, twave mega Latias and mega Scizor as win con if I'm using double trapper.

Venusaur and Altaria are great on their own rights too.
 
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cityscapes

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What megas should stall run now? I've been experimenting with Altaria and its ok, not great bulk but good resistances.
I've been messing around with this one Mega Ampharos set and it's been working really well for me. It's basically a one-stop birdspam counter that has uses outside of that. A physically defensive variant at full health actually can't be trapped by Dugtrio without rocks:
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO
This is the set I've been using:

Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static-->Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
-Volt Switch
-Dragon Pulse
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
 
Yeah Stall runs MAlt, MZardX, MVenu best now. I think I outlined this in the suspect thread, but basically all of these have good syerngy with dugtrio in some way/shape/form.

Also you can double defog/clear rather easily. Tenta/Starmie/skarm (mandatory)/Zapdos are all good options and fit pretty easily. I'm not gonna waste a lot of energy on this gen for a month or so but the final team I ended with was:

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Toxic

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Pursuit
- Rest

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Def / 248 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Brave Bird
- Spikes

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 140 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Facade
- Cotton Guard

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 28 SpD / 16 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes


Has an issue with talonflame and some taunters (mew) but that's about it. This is about the model for Malt stall. The Venu/Reun team is a pretty good model for Venu teams and TFL's ZardX team is ideal for that style (ZardX/Trio/Gastro/Skarm/Zap/Clef?). Actually, lots of end XY Zardx teams are fine.
 
So, I am not sure if this would count as being "against the rules", but I want to bring up the point of what stall would become without Mega Sableye. I think Pokemon like Quagsire and Chansey are more stall defining, but according to most people Mega Sableye defines stall. Therefore, I'd like to hear someone else's opinion on this. If Mega Sableye gets banned, people have been saying that Mega Venusaur and Mega Altaria will be the mega evolutions to be used on stall and I agree. But I think maybe a mega like bulky Charizard X or Mega Latias because of their bulk and stall capabilities. Not only that, but they have offensive presence as well so they can take the offensive support slot as well, opening a slot for another stall member. Now, I'd like to hear the opinion of someone else.
Bulky Charizard X sets have been around for a some time with varying effect, with sets such as the one below, that generally do well against bulkier mons due to a surprise factor of a bulkier set instead of DDance sets. I can theorise that Zard X would do better against Chansey or Mega Venusaur on stall, howevever it lacks the speed boosts from DDance to check Mega Lati, and Quagsire simply sits there with Unaware and practically walls it

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 160 Spe
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flare Blitz
- Roost
- Earthquake

Mega Lati replacing MSableye can work when on the right team. It has great bulk, easy access to recovery like Zard X, and can even run Reflect Type or Thunder Wave to just be annoying for your Opponent. A large movepool means that Mega-Lati can harass opponents and cover a variety of weaknesses in a particular team or against a particular matchup. There's also utility for your own team in Defog and Thunder Wave, and even Healing Wish to come in with a fresh Mon

However, both of your suggestions don't match up amazingly against Mega Altaria, because of it's Fairy Typing. Mega Zard is resisted on its STAB's, while being threatened with any form of Dragon type move, and with Mega Lati being only to affect M Alt with Ice Beam. That being said, both Megas do indeed have an offensive pressure while on a stall team. Zard X is able to threaten with Tough Claws and Flare Blitz, even without max investment, is still nothing to laugh at or about. A solid defensive typing means that it resists a fair few common mons in Stall like Ferrothorn or Mega Venusaur, while M-Lati have offensive pressure from its rather large base 140 SpA and diverse movepool
 
Stall won't be crippled. The biggest issue with Sab in the context of stall versatility is that it makes the matchup for any non-Sab stall very difficult, which is a big part of why I think non-Sab stall has fallen into obscurity. What I've noticed with my limited suspect ladder playtime is that the way you can structure stall feels a lot more... well, fluid. I made a quick build that springboarded off of Tele stall that featured Mega Slowbro>Mega Sableye and CM Blissey or SR Chansey>Suicune and reworked Dugtrio set, and it's not been half bad. What it has definitely shown me is that non-Sab stall isn't unfeasible or even necessarily bad (further supported by ABR's success with Alt Stall even with Sab on the ladder) and that options are freed up by a large number of factors, including the mega slot no longer being eaten by Sableye, the lack of opposing Sableye to need to spike stack against/reflect your status back at you etc. Right now stall has to actively look for reasons to not use Mega Sableye, and this is not a healthy aspect.

Good stall megas (exc. Sab) include, but aren't limited to, Mega Venusaur, Mega Slowbro, Mega Altaria, Mega Charizard X and a few others. Mega Audino stall anyone?

On the flipside, it does open you up to a number of stallbreakers which were not efficient at stallbreaking before, including but not limited to Taunt Gliscor, Taunt+Wisp Talonflame, Mew, Mega Alakazam and MediSpikes. This means that you will need to approach threat management differently, and stallbreaking will be a different concept to what it is atm.

I can only see the metagame becoming more healthy without Mega Sableye in it tbh, both in the respect that the matchup issues are hurt less due to a large number of stallbreakers no longer being invalidated in one team slot and due to there no longer being something restricting the way that you can build in the respect of stall vs. stall matchup (i.e. ensuring it's not an upward if you lack it), and also in the respect that I think there will just be a wider range of viable options in the same way that banning Aegislash in XY opened up a wider range of options.
I would still say Sableye is the definition of a stall pokemon. Sure it does not represent everything stall teams do(nor does any other pokemon).

One key trait is that, Sableye-m shows up strictly in stall teams only, and the same can not be said for anyother megas.
 
Is there even a real counter to medicham anymore? I guess if you use regular ole' Sab he isn't an issue still. Goodness this thing can roll through squads at a time now.
 

Martin

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Is there even a real counter to medicham anymore? I guess if you use regular ole' Sab he isn't an issue still. Goodness this thing can roll through squads at a time now.
Mew, Reuniclus, Cresselia, Mega Slowbro etc. There are plenty of alternative answers to it that aren't Mega Sableye.
 
Is there even a real counter to medicham anymore? I guess if you use regular ole' Sab he isn't an issue still. Goodness this thing can roll through squads at a time now.
Sab being banned only impacted stall's matchup against Medi but now on stall the best ways to counter or check Medicham are Unaware Phys def Clefable, Reuniclus, Mega Slowbro, Shedinja and probably a few more i'm forgetting + Dugtrio can trap non Bullet Punch Medicham if needed.
 
Is there even a real counter to medicham anymore? I guess if you use regular ole' Sab he isn't an issue still. Goodness this thing can roll through squads at a time now.
Sab being banned only impacted stall's matchup against Medi but now on stall the best ways to counter or check Medicham are Unaware Phys def Clefable, Reuniclus, Mega Slowbro, Shedinja and probably a few more i'm forgetting + Dugtrio can trap non Bullet Punch Medicham if needed.
Faster Priority as well checks Mega Medicham, such as Talonflame or a mon that runs ESpeed
 
Yeah just send a fighting resist or some other pokemon in to get ohkoed by high jump kick and then force them out for a turn or two with a faster mon because Medicham Is A Totally Balanced Pokemon.
 
Medi might be an issue for some but stall doesn't really give a shit about it. I never understood why people considered it a wallbreaker when we had such tools as doublade/mew/cress/Bro that have always just stopped it.
 
Balance/BO are the real losers, with Rotom, Lando-T, Heatran, Mega Venu, Ferrothorn being some of the main contingents who are just blown away by this thing, especially when paired with something like ScarfTar who can severely dent most of its checks...

Edit: just realised this was already the case thanks, as M-Sab wasn't on those teams to begin with... Still, Mega Medi is more of a pain but yeah. Mew, Doublade, Bold Clef etc all do a decent job against it
 

Martin

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FWIW while Bold Clef beats the standard BoltBeam set it isn't a consistent stop to dual STAB variants:

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Same goes for Mega Venusaur. Also MediVile is utterly disgusting, as is MediSpikes.
 

hecatomb

Banned deucer.
Its pretty sad to even suspect M-sableye, or even ban him. Saying hes unhealthy doesnt mean anything, if you cant prove it. Pretty much any ground type with earthquake can kill it, or not to mention clefable, which is S-tier, can deal with it like nothing. Also manaphy wrecks house with tail glow, rain dance, scald. People just dont like M-sableye cause they want to use rocks, or spikes every single game. If you are having a hard time killing M-sableye, then you are just bad at the game.
 
"Other arguments brought up that Dugtrio and trapping were the main contributors to why Mega Sableye was so good, but even with Dugtrio gone, Mega Sableye builds are still very restricting."
- smog article on the msab suspect.

This line particularly irked me because we simply don't know if this is the case. We've never seen what it's like to have dugtrio gone from the meta, so this statement is invalid.

@above, I know the pro-ban argument acknowledged that there is plentiful and viable counterplay to MSab. From what I understand, the primary reason to ban was to make stall more diverse, as (not from my own experience) stall teams without MSab lose to stall teams with MSab. If this is the case, then it had very little to do with the meta as a whole. We'll get to see in the coming weeks/months just how much dugtrio still fux the same mons up and still has a detrimental effect on the meta. Have bans ever been overturned post-meta? hm..
 
There's like legit 1 person who was making the argument that it should be banned to make stall more diverse it was banned because it prevented the majority of counterplay to stall other than overpowering it with specific breakers which are only good against certain renditions of sableye stall creating matchup issues. This ban opens up counterplay through winning the hazard game, and using taunt.
 

hecatomb

Banned deucer.
And which pokemon use taunt in competitive play really? Like I said before people are just bad at the game. And talking about a OU being more diverse is a laugh. People are always going to use clefable and landorus therian, and other top tier pokemon. If people use the same top tier pokemon in competitive, I guess there isnt much diversity is there?
 
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