Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Solar4lyfe]

I really don't understand why some people think Megazard X should drop to A+. We all know MegaMence will be banned to Ubers and when that happens Megazard X will yet again be the most viable Dragon Dancer in the meta. Granted, he's not quite the threat he was in XY. However, it is still heavily versatile and a force to be reckoned with. If it weren't for MegaMence this wouldn't even be an issue. This is exactly why Megazard X's spot is set in stone; The only Pokémon that will ever do its job better will be banished to Ubers. Even with MegaMence on the field Megazard X is extremely potent, just because one severely overpowered and broken Pokémon does its job better doesn't mean Megazard X became any less viable an option. In fact, most people I know that have been actively using MegaMence have gone back to their Megazard X or have at least prepared to because it's very obvious MegaMence will be banned, and soon.

 

[Gary]

The only things is by using MegaSwampert you can't use MegaCross.
Also beating Ferro is not that easy: 252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-226 (54.5 - 64.2%)
not necessarily guranteed.

Also Chestnaught, MegaSlowbro, and and celebi also problems that megacross can help remedy. Basically rain can be good vs offense with megaswampert or stall with megaCross.

So not like mega swampert is the only mega for rain.

To be honest that's a pretty biased Ferro calc considering that most Ferros these days rarely run max defense, as a more mixed spread is MUCH better so it can better take on special threats such as Thundurus, Mega Diance, Latios, and Greninja, as well as physical threats. Also everything you mentioned that Mega Hera beats is also beaten by another very commonly used rain Pokemon in the form of Tornadus-T. Slowbro is also dealt with by teammates such as Thundurus and Celebi. While Mega Cross is used on rain to support rain's swimmers, Mega Swampert is used as a swimmer, which means that instead the roles are reversed and instead its teammates will be supporting the mega. They fulfill two totally different roles on rain, but in all honesty I'd rather replace one of my swimmers with Mega Swampert and then use the extra teamslot to support it instead of using that teamslot for a swimmer and using my mega slot on Cross, seeing as how Mega Swampy is arguably the best swimmer in the tier.

I'm not adamant about my opinion on Swampert's ranking because I do like it as a rain mon, but there are many problems on it I haven't mentioned that should be considered like how it can't outspeed +1 neutral Spe Mence unlike Kingdra and Kabu which give it competition.

What Mega Mence's are you running into ?_?

Jolly Mega Mence outspeeds Kingdra, Kabutops, and Mega Swampert at +1; Jolly Mega Mence reaches 558 Speed at +1, while Kingdra and Kabutops reaches 538 and 518 in rain. The standard spread for Sub DD Mega Mence only reaches 474 Speed at +1 (unless its changed again correct me if I'm wrong I'm pretty sure it's 160 EVs) and Mega Swampert hits 478 iirc. So basically they're all either outsped or outspeed Mega Mence depending on its set. No one runs 252 Adamant Mence, that's just dumb. Also, I don't see how Kabutops and Kingdra give Mega Swampert competition, when rain can afford to run Mega Swampert AND another swimmer without much of an issue. In all honesty, Kabutops and Mega Swampert make for a great pair, as they weaken each others check and counters quite nicely.

 

[doughboy]

I've been using Mega-Swampert a lot on rain and it's been pretty great. Swampert gives rain teams a fantastic way to check electric types like Zapdos, Raikou, and Thundy who are otherwise a pain. Its coverage is amazing and it isn't easily worn down because of its SR resistance and it doesn't need a Life Orb for power. He's kinda slow for a Swift Swimmer and being outspeed by certain scarfers is annoying (base 95+). A- is a solid and well deserved placement for it though.


I'm not sure what order we are in now because the title says A and A-, but we're talking B+ stuff so don't crucsade me if I am out of order. Other ranking stuff I think should happen:

Terrakion: A ----> A-

I feel like this one has been kind of overdue since late XY. Simply put Terrakion doesn't put in as much work as it used to because its checks have grown in popularity and the metagame has become more offensive. Ever since late XY everyone and their mom has been running Scarf Lando-T which can check Terrakion pretty well and steal momentum away from it with U-turn. One of its premier counters, Slowbro, just got even better at checking it and more popular with its Mega-Evo. Now that the meta is more offensive, priority is flying everywhere so Terrakion puts in a lot less work against offensive teams than before. Finally, since some stall builds have been carrying Quagsire and Doublade, its Sash SD set has become a lot less effective than in the past agains stall builds. It's sill pretty good, but not on par with the other pokes in A rank IMO.

Klefki ---> B+

How is this this mon ranked two ranks below lol Hawlucha? Klefki is a poke that always puts in work. Klefki priority Thunder Wave + Spikes support is really good. As we all know from Thundurus-I, priority Thunder Wave is a great emergency button to stop potential sweepers in their tracks. In the current offensive meta, klefki puts it to use all the time. Second, Klefki's great steel-fairy typing means it always finds an opportunity to switch in and get off at least one layer of spikes. Even one layer against an offensive team makes the opponent have to think that much harder. Against defensive teams getting three layers up, which is really easy, makes breaking down defensive cores much easier. It can mess around with Mega-Sableye because of its Fairy-STAB. The fourth moveslot is can be kinda of a tossup. Toxic can be used to punish Defoggers, fairy lock can be used to give your poke a free set opportunity, a weather move can be used, or even heal block to mess with stall (it works in ubers haven't tried it in OU). It also can use dual screens to help sweepers. Play rough vs dazzling gleam is a tough call. Play rough means you can break latias' subs / do more to AV conk but dazzling gleam hits sableye a bit harder I think and you aren't as susceptible to burn. Basically Klefki is the shit because it brings so much utility to the table and it can pull work against both offensive teams and defensive teams. IMO it belongs in B+ solidly.

Starmie B+ --> B- Starmie just can't rapid spin as easily as it did in the past anymore thanks to mega sableye. Mega-Slowbro is also a decent check to it too with Sp. def investment. Mega Sableye and Mega-Diance also provide new options to manage hazards for offensive teams. I don't think it should move to C+ rank though because it poses a potent offensive threat. I think people are being kinda ignorant because Starmie does not have to run Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin was one of its best options, but it can run a fourth coverage move comfortably. With a fourth coverage move, namely Thunderbolt or HP Fire, Starmie can make a scary attacking pair with Greninja. Both have pretty similar checks and counters, but either can run a surprise coverage move to eliminate eithers counter [ex. hp fire for Ferrothorn].

There's some other stuff but those four are the ones I think really need to be updated.

 

[Eik00c]

I really don't understand why some people think Megazard X should drop to A+. We all know MegaMence will be banned to Ubers and when that happens Megazard X will yet again be the most viable Dragon Dancer in the meta. Granted, he's not quite the threat he was in XY. However, it is still heavily versatile and a force to be reckoned with. If it weren't for MegaMence this wouldn't even be an issue. This is exactly why Megazard X's spot is set in stone; The only Pokémon that will ever do its job better will be banished to Ubers. Even with MegaMence on the field Megazard X is extremely potent, just because one severely overpowered and broken Pokémon does its job better doesn't mean Megazard X became any less viable an option. In fact, most people I know that have been actively using MegaMence have gone back to their Megazard X or have at least prepared to because it's very obvious MegaMence will be banned, and soon.

What does Megazard X have over Mega Mence? Honestly, I can't think of anything, but if you can think of anything, then go ahead and prove me wrong. And we all know that Mega Mence will be banned, but it isn't atm, so Zard X should go to A+ for now.

 

[firehusky]

What does Megazard X have over Mega Mence? Honestly, I can't think of anything, but if you can think of anything, then go ahead and prove me wrong. And we all know that Mega Mence will be banned, but it isn't atm, so Zard X should go to A+ for now.

Tough claws is great, but aerilate is even better. I guess you could say that it has really good STABs, and a really nice defensive typing. Also, mega charizard x can run the stall set with will-o-wisp and stuff. But that's about it, mega mence literally is the best ddancer in history right behind mega rayquaza.
Doughboy has a really cool XY OU RMT featuring mega zard x, it's pretty cool you should check it out :]

 

[Worthlessnoob]

Gary2346 Eh, I'll assume you're right about Mence since I haven't used the SubDD set, but I always see my opponents running 252 adamant. I get that Swampert is probably the best Swift Swimmer, but Swampert and Kabutops are hard to use on the same team since it compounds your grass weakness.

MegaPert is ok for A- now that I think about it cause it isn't a big leap from B+, but I'm still not sure what makes Swampert + 2nd Swift Swimmer + random wallbreaker better than 2 regular Swift Swimmers + Mega Heracross especially since Swampert needs a turn to mega.

 

[Albacore]

C+ is really overselling Absol in all honestly, but I would like to see it move to C simply because it's slightly better in ORAS than it used to be. I have used it and it can put in some work, though its frailty is a huge problem and makes setting up almost impossible. It does find some opportunities to set up though, even against some offensive teams. I have a replay where it set up on Jolly MAero (he went for Aerial Ace, probably expecting to KO from full) and proceeded to sweep the rest of the team. The biggest thing MAbsol has going for it is the ability to completely cockblock Sableye (unless it has Foul Play), and while you have stuff like XZard and Talonflame that do that too, MAbsol does have a couple of qualities that could make it worth running on certain teams, such as beating Stored Power Latias, not being stopped by Thundurus, and resisting Sucker Punch itself. In fact MAbsol actually has a pretty nice matchup against stall teams right now and can certainly clean them if they're weakened. It's still very, very frail (+2 LO Bisharp Sucker Punch always 2HKOs which is lol), and it's not really that powerful either (for instance it's not guaranteed to OHKO Hetran at +2), and from what I can tell it is pretty bad vs balance lol, but it can actually work in ORAS better than it used to in XY.

Klefki is pretty damn good, I don't know if it's on par with Hawlucha because that thing is utterly deadly and could possibly move up, but Klefki is a great dedicated spikes setter. It actually got a knew tool to play with in Priority Magnet Rise and that move is just amazing for Klefki, especially given that hit pretty much had a filler slot anyway. Magnet Rise enables it to completely stop leads such as Landorus-T, non Fire-Blast Garchomp, and just Pokemon who rely on ground coverage to hit it suck as Diggersby and Excadrill, turning them all into yummy spikes fodder.

 

[napty]

I've seen a rise of Klefki's usage, at the same time as I was giving a shot to Dragalge... haha

 

[Scaler]

Sylveon B- ---> B rank

I feel that Sylveon is in a pretty good place right now and the addition of new megas has really helped it out in particular its choice spec set.

I'm going to focus mostly on the Specs variant of Sylveon as it is the form i have most experience with.

Specs Sylveon is both a fantastic wallbreaker and in some cases anti-lead. I've had a lot of success leading with sylveon

Heres a few Calcs for common leads/switch ins against sylveon.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 337-397 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 337-397 (112.3 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 355-418 (100.8 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 272-324 (70.6 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 172-204 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 186-219 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 348-412 (101.4 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO



A few of the new megas popular at the moment: (They don't say mega as their mega forms are not in the smogon calculator yet but i changed the stats to what they should be so they are accurate)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 258-304 (106.6 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 330-390 (108.5 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this is after 1 calm mind boost for Mega Sableye)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (pre calm mind boost)



Of course Sylveon has its weakness.Some of the Megas/Sweepers it OHKOs can either heavily damage or OHKO themselves (eg. Salamence/Scizor), The blobs give it a lot of trouble and whilst it used to counter greninja, now it can use gunk shot its the opposite. However it is still a very solid pokemon as both a wallbreaker and a cleric/wish passer and definetely worthy of rising to B rank

 

[Kurona]

The blobs give it a lot of trouble

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 250-295 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can only 3HKO Blissey at best and good luck beating Chansey, but I think Clefable's counted as one of the blobs now, right? Could've sworn it was.
Still, agree with your overall point. Welcome to Smogon btw

 

[jacob]

Welcome to Smogon btw

Joined:Oct 26, 2012
wouldnt call him new

 

[Kurona]

Joined:Oct 26, 2012
wouldnt call him new

Was looking at the message count.
I guess he was just lurking until it was his time for him to nominee Sylveon to go up a rank

 

[psVoltage]

I've been using Mega-Swampert a lot on rain and it's been pretty great. Swampert gives rain teams a fantastic way to check electric types like Zapdos, Raikou, and Thundy who are otherwise a pain. Its coverage is amazing and it isn't easily worn down because of its SR resistance and it doesn't need a Life Orb for power. He's kinda slow for a Swift Swimmer and being outspeed by certain scarfers is annoying (base 95+). A- is a solid and well deserved placement for it though.


I'm not sure what order we are in now because the title says A and A-, but we're talking B+ stuff so don't crucsade me if I am out of order. Other ranking stuff I think should happen:

Terrakion: A ----> A-

I feel like this one has been kind of overdue since late XY. Simply put Terrakion doesn't put in as much work as it used to because its checks have grown in popularity and the metagame has become more offensive. Ever since late XY everyone and their mom has been running Scarf Lando-T which can check Terrakion pretty well and steal momentum away from it with U-turn. One of its premier counters, Slowbro, just got even better at checking it and more popular with its Mega-Evo. Now that the meta is more offensive, priority is flying everywhere so Terrakion puts in a lot less work against offensive teams than before. Finally, since some stall builds have been carrying Quagsire and Doublade, its Sash SD set has become a lot less effective than in the past agains stall builds. It's sill pretty good, but not on par with the other pokes in A rank IMO.

Klefki ---> B+

How is this this mon ranked two ranks below lol Hawlucha? Klefki is a poke that always puts in work. Klefki priority Thunder Wave + Spikes support is really good. As we all know from Thundurus-I, priority Thunder Wave is a great emergency button to stop potential sweepers in their tracks. In the current offensive meta, klefki puts it to use all the time. Second, Klefki's great steel-fairy typing means it always finds an opportunity to switch in and get off at least one layer of spikes. Even one layer against an offensive team makes the opponent have to think that much harder. Against defensive teams getting three layers up, which is really easy, makes breaking down defensive cores much easier. It can mess around with Mega-Sableye because of its Fairy-STAB. The fourth moveslot is can be kinda of a tossup. Toxic can be used to punish Defoggers, fairy lock can be used to give your poke a free set opportunity, a weather move can be used, or even heal block to mess with stall (it works in ubers haven't tried it in OU). It also can use dual screens to help sweepers. Play rough vs dazzling gleam is a tough call. Play rough means you can break latias' subs / do more to AV conk but dazzling gleam hits sableye a bit harder I think and you aren't as susceptible to burn. Basically Klefki is the shit because it brings so much utility to the table and it can pull work against both offensive teams and defensive teams. IMO it belongs in B+ solidly.

Starmie B+ --> B- Starmie just can't rapid spin as easily as it did in the past anymore thanks to mega sableye. Mega-Slowbro is also a decent check to it too with Sp. def investment. Mega Sableye and Mega-Diance also provide new options to manage hazards for offensive teams. I don't think it should move to C+ rank though because it poses a potent offensive threat. I think people are being kinda ignorant because Starmie does not have to run Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin was one of its best options, but it can run a fourth coverage move comfortably. With a fourth coverage move, namely Thunderbolt or HP Fire, Starmie can make a scary attacking pair with Greninja. Both have pretty similar checks and counters, but either can run a surprise coverage move to eliminate eithers counter [ex. hp fire for Ferrothorn].

There's some other stuff but those four are the ones I think really need to be updated.

Parroting this post 100% Klefki is a beast in this meta since it can come in on mence and cripple it when its not behind a sub. Terrakion is still good however, I've been using lo sd set and it breaks down alot of things bar slowbro who is easily checked by other team members. Pair it with something like cm stored power Clefable or DD Altaria and you have a good core. I have no comment on starmie since I do not use it.

 

[firehusky]

Klefki has always been the decent mon it's always been. Prankster t-wave, spikes and dual screens are really nice. It just so happens that it also has a great defensive typing, with only 2 weaknesses, and 2 immunities. I think the main reason in the increase of usage of klefki, is prankster t-wave. The main other user of prankster t-wave is thundurus, but it can only be used as a 1 time stop to a sweeper, and it's way too frail. Even after klefki uses thunder wave, it's bulky enough to actually tank a hit after that, whereas all thundy can do is paralyze you, and then die. (Unless you get haxed) With the coming of ORAS, lots of new broken megas were released, and most of them leaned towards offense. Some of the better megas are mega salamence, mega gallade, mega altaria, mega diancie, mega slowbro and mega sableye imo. Almost all of them are set up sweepers. Klefki has the ability to stop all of them. It resists aerilate returns, and can para, which basically neuters it. Mega gallade is also a set up sweeper with SD, and klefki can paralyze easily and then foul play. All of the mons mentioned above can be stopped by klefki's bulk and prankster t-wave, except for mega sableye and slowbro.
So yeah, klefki deserves to move up a few ranks because of it's great bulk + defensive typing, and it has a niche as being one of the only mons who can successfully stop most set up sweepers. The only other mon that can do it is thundurus, but can only stop them once and is too frail to do so multiple times.

 

[Zebstrika]

So I also want to raise Klefki to B+ Here's the set I use:

Hide

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Spikes
- Fairy Lock
- Play Rough

Sometimes I use Dazzling Gleam instead with a Bold nature. Whatever, not much difference. Play Rough is better imo because many targets (the only big exception being mega salamence) have roughly equal or lower defense, things like Mega Sceptile, Weavile, Lati@s, etc. On things with roughly equal defenses, Play Rough still hits harder due to higher base power.

Klefki can actually switch into Mega Salamence and Greninja (at least) once;

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Klefki: 213-252 (66.9 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Klefki: 224-264 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Klefki: 222-262 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Klefki Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Salamence: 114-134 (28.9 - 34%) -- 1.5% chance to 3HKO (To break even the bulkiest possible sub, play rough also works but does less damage to the typical salamence)

And then thunder wave them to make sure they don't sweep.

Klefki also switches into most of the other new popular megas to paralyze them:

Hide

• Mega Metagross: Can switch-in on anything then paralyze, Quake does ~75%, Meteor Mash does ~50, everything else is ass vs Klefki
• Mega Gallade: Takes ~70% from Close Combat, ~20 from any other move. Paralyzes with no problem, then can 2HKO with a fairy move.
• Mega Sceptile: Fears nothing but maybe Earthquake, which still doesn't 2HKO unless Sceptile has a lot of attack investment. Klefki can't paralyze (lightningrod) but it can 2HKO with a fairy move.
• Mega Diancie: Earth power does ~75%, HP Fire does ~50, everything else including its stabs does like 30% or less
• Mega Beedrill: Lols at U-turn (~10%), lols even harder at poison jab, still can take a Drill Run (does 60%)
• Mega Altaria: Earthquake does 60 if fully invested, 45 without investment. Stabs aren't a problem. Fire Blast is survivable even off max SpA (does like 80%) Play Rough hits back decently, 2HKOing uninvested Altaria
• Mega Latias: Switches into anything easily. Thunder Waves easily, as Play Rough will always break a sub. If you run Toxic, Latias is even more screwed.
• Mega Lopunny: survives any attack: Kick does 60-70%, Klefki can paralyze it and then 2HKO
• Mega Sharpedo: not sure if this counts as a "popular" mega, but Klefki resists Crunch and Waterfall doesn't 2HKO

Also some anti-meta pokemon who have gotten more popular:

• Mega Aerodactyl: Resists both stabs. EQ and Fire Fang do 50-65% (depending on which one, as well as adamant or jolly)
• Weavile: Resists both stabs (dgaf about Low Kick or Poison Jab either), paralyzes easily, Play rough OHKO after rocks
• Hydreigon: Apparently this is a thing now? Well, unless it predicts its Fire Blast right (and even then, needs an item boost to 1HKO so it can't be scarf), Klefki can paralyze it, and 1HKO if it gets the chance.

That's what makes Klefki an even better emergency stop than thundurus; it can actually switch in, or if it got a free switch, it has a decent chance not to die after the thunder wave, and not just because of the 25% hax chance that paralysis brings.

Another thing is Fairy Lock, which is so underrated. Basically, it makes it so that the turn after it is used, no one can switch unless by u-turn or shed shell or something. So you can use it as you sac Klefki, and the opponent will be trapped the next turn. Which means, if you use it right, the teammate can potentially get two free turns to set up (if you have a good matchup, for example, Suicune vs a trapped Heatran). In this meta of totally borked sweepers (Salamence isn't even the only one, when we're talking 2 turns of set up here), that can basically be gg. Even if you can't trap something you can set up on, that means it's likely a check to your sweeper, and you can just eliminate it with no problems.

 

[TheMohZone]

So I also want to raise Klefki to B+ Here's the set I use:

Hide

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Spikes
- Fairy Lock
- Play Rough

Sometimes I use Dazzling Gleam instead with a Bold nature. Whatever, not much difference. Play Rough is better imo because many targets (the only big exception being mega salamence) have roughly equal or lower defense, things like Mega Sceptile, Weavile, Lati@s, etc. On things with roughly equal defenses, Play Rough still hits harder due to higher base power.

Klefki can actually switch into Mega Salamence and Greninja (at least) once;

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Klefki: 213-252 (66.9 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Klefki: 224-264 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Klefki: 222-262 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Klefki Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Salamence: 114-134 (28.9 - 34%) -- 1.5% chance to 3HKO (To break even the bulkiest possible sub, play rough also works but does less damage to the typical salamence)

And then thunder wave them to make sure they don't sweep.

Klefki also switches into most of the other new popular megas to paralyze them:

Hide

• Mega Metagross: Can switch-in on anything then paralyze, Quake does ~75%, Meteor Mash does ~50, everything else is ass vs Klefki
• Mega Gallade: Takes ~70% from Close Combat, ~20 from any other move. Paralyzes with no problem, then can 2HKO with a fairy move.
• Mega Sceptile: Fears nothing but maybe Earthquake, which still doesn't 2HKO unless Sceptile has a lot of attack investment. Klefki can't paralyze (lightningrod) but it can 2HKO with a fairy move.
• Mega Diancie: Earth power does ~75%, HP Fire does ~50, everything else including its stabs does like 30% or less
• Mega Beedrill: Lols at U-turn (~10%), lols even harder at poison jab, still can take a Drill Run (does 60%)
• Mega Altaria: Earthquake does 60 if fully invested, 45 without investment. Stabs aren't a problem. Fire Blast is survivable even off max SpA (does like 80%) Play Rough hits back decently, 2HKOing uninvested Altaria
• Mega Latias: Switches into anything easily. Thunder Waves easily, as Play Rough will always break a sub. If you run Toxic, Latias is even more screwed.
• Mega Lopunny: survives any attack: Kick does 60-70%, Klefki can paralyze it and then 2HKO
• Mega Sharpedo: not sure if this counts as a "popular" mega, but Klefki resists Crunch and Waterfall doesn't 2HKO

Also some anti-meta pokemon who have gotten more popular:

• Mega Aerodactyl: Resists both stabs. EQ and Fire Fang do 50-65% (depending on which one, as well as adamant or jolly)
• Weavile: Resists both stabs (dgaf about Low Kick or Poison Jab either), paralyzes easily, Play rough OHKO after rocks
• Hydreigon: Apparently this is a thing now? Well, unless it predicts its Fire Blast right (and even then, needs an item boost to 1HKO so it can't be scarf), Klefki can paralyze it, and 1HKO if it gets the chance.

That's what makes Klefki an even better emergency stop than thundurus; it can actually switch in, or if it got a free switch, it has a decent chance not to die after the thunder wave, and not just because of the 25% hax chance that paralysis brings.

Another thing is Fairy Lock, which is so underrated. Basically, it makes it so that the turn after it is used, no one can switch unless by u-turn or shed shell or something. So you can use it as you sac Klefki, and the opponent will be trapped the next turn. Which means, if you use it right, the teammate can potentially get two free turns to set up (if you have a good matchup, for example, Suicune vs a trapped Heatran). In this meta of totally borked sweepers (Salamence isn't even the only one, when we're talking 2 turns of set up here), that can basically be gg. Even if you can't trap something you can set up on, that means it's likely a check to your sweeper, and you can just eliminate it with no problems.

Except if Mence is behind a sub, or carrying Fire Blast or Earthquake, Klefki gets vaporized. and any decent Greninja is gonna run anyway, Probably to the teams resident ground type, so you just took 80% and basically lost your Klefki for no gain.

That being Said, your more than Likely not getting smacked with A HP fire, so Klefki has that Niche of being a decent stop to about 60% of Greninja, which is more than most, while remaining relevant and actually able to do stuff, unlike stuff like P2 and Vaporeon who don't do much, even on stall. and Fairy Lock is something i have been meaning to test (Although i don't have my hopes up, but being able to set up twice with XZard and Altaria, Gyra, TTar or even Pinisr or just begin the slaughter with Swamp, (Mence obviously needs no help) sounds wonderful...but i'm sure if its that good we woulda exploited it by now.)

Personally i dunno where to put Klefki. its not B- but its not B+ material. I think B Rank Klefki seems solid.

 

[Albacore]

On the subject of Sylveon, I've found its main use right now (and this sounds really specific but it is a very good niche) to be used as glue on HO teams built around MGallade+Bisharp. This is a really good core but it falls flat on its face against Sableye. You could go for Clefable, but it doesn't really fit on HO for obvious reasons, the main one being the fact that it loses momentum for the team (Clefable isn't extremely passive by all means but it's still a bit passive). There's some other stuff, such as SD Talonflame, but Sylveon does have a few advantages over Talonflame namely packing more of an initial punch and just having great synergy with the core in general, not just taking care of Sableye but also being able to abuse Baton Pass, drawing in steels for Gallade to use as setup fodder, and baiting in Jirachi and Bronzong for Bisharp to pursuit trap, 2HKOing Mega-Slowbro even at +1, etc... Baton Pass is really important for Specs Sylveon since it enables it to keep momentum rolling. Really, mos of early-game is just spamming Baton Pass to get stuff in for free. It's also a pretty neat offensive check to stuff like Thundurus and Manectric who can be annoying for offensive teams.
The cleric set is honestly completely irrelevant though, especially since Unaware is really important on Clefable atm for dealing with Gallde, Mega-Slowbro, Mega-Latias, DD Altaria and freinds. Specs is pretty solid though. I'm not sure if it's good enough to move it up to B but it really doesn't seem that out of place there.

Also, since we're on the subject of B- ranks, Cresselia, Gothitelle and Weavile need to move up. Weavile is pretty obvious and I don't think I should have to explain it (even with mence gone it stis at a fantastic speed tier, checks the faster megas with priority and also revenge kills Greninja), Cresselia is because it's fat as all hell and really benefits from a meta where people are just spamming the fast stuff, and Goth is because it traps stuff for MMence/Metagross/Lopunny etc. Also Doublade needs to move down, I said C in my original post but that may be a bit harsh since it still have the niche of beating MHera+MGarde+MPinsir once MMence leaves, but it's definitely a lot less necessary on stall simply because all of the things it beats have plummeted in usage and in MMedicham's case, even been replaced by something it cannot beat. Yeah it walls a few new megas, but these megas are, for the most part, not threats to stall (except maybe Hammer Arm Metagross, but since it specifically beats Hammer Arm variants and not EQ variants that's only a factor if you're running something that beats EQ but not Hammer Arm MMeta like Ferro which is pretty situational teambuilding-wise). Also, a lot of these megas can easily run coverage to screw it over. Despite the dominance of stall atm, this thing is almost unheard of in ORAS and for a good reason. It's not the cornerstone of stall it used to be, and it requires just as much support as it used to and is more likely to be complete deadweight, so it definitely needs to move down to at least C+ imo.

 

[Zebstrika]

Except if Mence is behind a sub, or carrying Fire Blast or Earthquake, Klefki gets vaporized. and any decent Greninja is gonna run anyway, Probably to the teams resident ground type, so you just took 80% and basically lost your Klefki for no gain.

uh...you saw those calcs right? Klefki survives those super effective hits, it's not pretty, but they're also not the attacks that Mence and Ninja are spamming all the time anyways, so usually you'll switch in on a resisted Return or Ice Beam or something.

Also Sub Salamence doesn't screw Klefki, since a fairy attack breaks the sub, then it thunder waves before Salamence can set up another. Sub is usually run with just Return, which makes it no issue for Klefki to tank the hit and break the sub.

If the opponent runs from the thunder wave, klefki did its job of at least stopping the sweep. If the opponent has no boosts to lose by running, then that's an opportunity throw up a spike.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

so i am gonna nominate glalie for b-/b. alright, coming from somebody who used glalie, i can safely say that this thing is hard as dicks to counter. your options are...mega aggron, scizor, pdef p2, bronzong, and doublade. bulky waters dont work because they get freeze-dried. steels barring the ones i mentioned get beaten by earthquake. and the only 2 that dont take 50+ from explosion are doublade and aggron. and before you go apeshit on me and say skarm counters it, i'm using double-edge>return, like everyone using glalie should be. it also doesnt need more support than something like zard y, pretty much only requiring a good voltturn core and defog. to put into numbers this things strength:

252+ Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 264-312 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
if you dont resist ice or are not fat as fuck like pdef p2, you dont take glalie. and look at the things in c, do you really think glalie is equal in viability to things like lanturn, normal zam, mega aggron, chandelure, or mega blastoise?

 

[TheMohZone]

uh...you saw those calcs right? Klefki survives those super effective hits, it's not pretty, but they're also not the attacks that Mence and Ninja are spamming all the time anyways, so usually you'll switch in on a resisted Return or Ice Beam or something.

Also Sub Salamence doesn't screw Klefki, since a fairy attack breaks the sub, then it thunder waves before Salamence can set up another. Sub is usually run with just Return, which makes it no issue for Klefki to tank the hit and break the sub.

If the opponent runs from the thunder wave, klefki did its job of at least stopping the sweep. If the opponent has no boosts to lose by running, then that's an opportunity throw up a spike.

yeah i saw the calcs. They weren't boosted for Mence. for EQ, so you getting smacked and it switching...its not really gonna care. it'll just come back in and try again later. you can stop SubDD a grand total of once.

the most likely scenario is Meance forcing a switch to Klefki and setting up a sub. You Dazzling Gleam, he EQs/Fire Blasts. Your Klefki is near dead with Few ways to heal, only being Leftovers and outside help. if you did Anything other than Gleamed (Including using play rough like you suggested, You HAVE to run gleam to touch meance, other wise the sub won't break.) you die. if you did gleam, He'll switch out into a ground type, Like Lando-T and force you out. and Mence's sweep was just Delayed as it will find its way in again. if it does, your Klefki dies on switch in

Although re-reading it, i see i was underselling it a tad, it checks meance alot better than i thought, but i still only say B.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Nominating Chesnaught B->B+ Rank

Chesnaught is such a bulky threat in this meta (and even more once bork mence is gone). Chesnaught is blessed with a fantastic physical bulk of 88/122, and some great resistances to Ground, Rock, and Dark, several common attacking types, and an immunity for common moves with Bulletproof. With this, Chesnaught can go toe to toe with several top tier pokemon, such as Bisharp and Landorus-T. In ORAS, Chesnaught is blessed with Drain Punch, keeping it healthy more easily throughout the match. Leech Seed and Spiky Shield make Physical Attackers have an even rougher time, as the chip damage rises. Chesnaught is one of the best defensive spike layers around. Chesnaught does face competation in this role with Ferrothorn, but has his advantages. Chesnaught is far more durable, with Drain Punch complementing his leech seed shenanigans. Chesnaught's resistances to common attacking types helps him, as well as his massive defense, tank physical attackers more, especially fighting types. Chesnaught also avoids getting trapped by Magnezone, who is running rampant in the tier. Finally, Chesnaught is a lot faster, allowing it to get some clutch seed shenanigans against weaker foes. I think these justify his movement.

 

[AM]

M-Glalie is fine at C. Its coverage is so poor and its over dependency on Refrigerate is quite fantastic in that it will actually never threaten any sort of offense outside of Ice Shard. I was all for this before cause of some tools it had but after awhile it became another lackluster mon where opportunity cost comes into play and I much rather use something else that is more reliable on Voltturn teams such as M-Scizor or M-Gyarados. Also after testing this as well I can assure you Freeze Dry is not good at all. Its damage output is so poor and the idea that it threatens bulky water types only applies to Quagsire and Gyarados, which you would be better off hitting them with Return anyways. The problem with Double-Edge is now you're basically wearing down a mon that has no recovery, a terrible defensive typing, and a mono typing which complicates this last issue even more and makes it prone to just about every single priority user barring users of Ice Shard. In all honesty it does ok against certain elements of Stall but that's about it. If Glalie doesn't threaten with an OHKO it's going to take the brunt of whatever is next and its lack of recovery and typing makes it so easy to wear down. So with all these traits considered outside of a very specific team build I think it's fine at C when the discussion of C ranked mons do come and I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it at C- simply because of how the meta is just going against it with ease.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

M-Glalie is fine at C. Its coverage is so poor and its over dependency on Refrigerate is quite fantastic in that it will actually never threaten any sort of offense outside of Ice Shard.

i dont think ground+ice+the ability to smack bulky waters in the dick is bad coverage, but i concur that it's kinda lackluster against offense

Also after testing this as well I can assure you Freeze Dry is not good at all. Its damage output is so poor and the idea that it threatens bulky water types only applies to Quagsire and Gyarados

slowbro, rotom-w, alomomola, manaphy want a word

. In all honesty it does ok against certain elements of Stall but that's about it.

glalie does work against balance, in the same way that mgarde does work against balance

The problem with Double-Edge is now you're basically wearing down a mon that has no recovery, a terrible defensive typing, and a mono typing which complicates this last issue even more and makes it prone to just about every single priority user barring users of Ice Shard.

well if glalie is a wallbreaker, it wants double edge so it could break skarm and when the time comes, sac itself to get a free switch into a cleaner and its not supposed to last all match anyways

If Glalie doesn't threaten with an OHKO it's going to take the brunt of whatever is next and its lack of recovery and typing makes it so easy to wear down.

can you name me wallbreakers that dont wear down alot? gengar, terrakion back in XY, and mix thund are all top-notch wallbreakers that dont last that long.


gonna tag MegaScizor because he's better at arguing than i ever could be

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Nominating

for S Rank

Mega Latios deserves to move up. We all know that the reason he's currently in B Rank is because being slightly better than Latios doesn't justify using a mega stone on him. However to the newer players, which IIRC helping them is what this thread is for, they'll look at the list and think Mega Latios isn't as good as his lower form. It should be up to the player whether they want to use up their mega on him. This thread is supposed to be for ranking viability and looking at how it is now, I'd be inclined to believe Mega Latios = Quagsire in viability.

 

[Ash Borer]

Glalie @ Glalite
Nature: Naughty
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- HIdden Power Fire
- Freeze-Dry

Im pretty sure only Cresselia can wall this. At that point it's become totally overspecialized and is way too slow and frail to do anything to offense so it sucks, but i'm just saying don't say glalie is easy to wall, because it isn't.