I wouldn't say we should blacklist Milotic, the Competitive set is passable, which tbh is the only Milotic set you should be running. I support it for D-Rank, but I am not opposed to it being unranked.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
- Start date
- Status
Except it's not, Milotic is rather slow, it's SpA isn't great unboosted and it has awful coverage, needing to run HP Grass/Electric to do anything to other water types and HP Fire to do anything to Ferro, it also doesn't have priority or boosting moves besides Coil (it's attack isn't remotely workable even with boosts).
What exactly is the niche of it?
Even the competitive coil set is pretty inferior to Manaphy. Manaphy has a much better and more reliable method of boosting its special attack through the roof. It also has better mixed bulk, better coverage options, better speed, and a way to render itself immune to status which goes along with recovery. As far as I see it, almost all of Milotic's sets are outclassed by superior and/or similar options:
-Alomomola for wish passing and walling with regenerator
-Manaphy and Suicune for sweeping
-Vaporeon for wish passing, phazing and cleric support
-Tentacruel for utility and resistances
-Gastrodon and Quagsire for basically the same thing
You could argue that it has Recover to distinguish itself from its competition, but it really doesn't get Milotic very far. Haze is really the only move that sets Milotic apart and it's hardly a reason to use it over Vaporeon, since Roar generally gets the job done better. That being said, I'm really not sure if Milotic should be listed at all, because I cannot think of a common scenario in which it would be the optimal choice for a team.
-Alomomola for wish passing and walling with regenerator
-Manaphy and Suicune for sweeping
-Vaporeon for wish passing, phazing and cleric support
-Tentacruel for utility and resistances
-Gastrodon and Quagsire for basically the same thing
You could argue that it has Recover to distinguish itself from its competition, but it really doesn't get Milotic very far. Haze is really the only move that sets Milotic apart and it's hardly a reason to use it over Vaporeon, since Roar generally gets the job done better. That being said, I'm really not sure if Milotic should be listed at all, because I cannot think of a common scenario in which it would be the optimal choice for a team.
I'm liking the idea of accurate Blizzard and Hydro Pump. Does anyone have any calcs?
None of this is true or relevant, as Milotic can't do jack shit to ANYTHING and is horribly outclassed by other viable water types (see BranFlakes post, he sums it up perfectly). Just look at the viablity ranking and realize how many things either destroy it outright (Raikou, Mega Man, Sceptile, Gengar, CharY, Mega Venu, etc.) or use it as set up fodder (Sub Keldeo, DD Gyara, DD Altaria, DD CharX, Mega Cm Slowbro, you get the picture). We can post all day long but at the end of the day Milotic has no worthy niche, viable set, or business being used in OU. People have already disproven you and yet you still persist in Milotic's "niche." Please don't get another mon blacklisted just for the sake of being hard headed.
Now that Reckless Emboar has been released, I propose a preliminary D rank for it.
Whether it's worth a little more than that or even worth being unranked is up for question; but I suggest we put it in D right now until we can decide that.
Oh uh also shell armour samurott was released lol who cares
Whether it's worth a little more than that or even worth being unranked is up for question; but I suggest we put it in D right now until we can decide that.
Oh uh also shell armour samurott was released lol who cares
Milotic has a niche in Trick Room as a Competitive abuser and works kinda like Exploud (spams Specs Hydro Pump) while putting pressure on Defog users. +2 Hydro Pump is really hard to switch into, as even Ferrothorn is 2HKOed. This is really the only reason to use Milo, so D rank is fine for her.
^Agree with Emboar for D.
^Agree with Emboar for D.
Last edited:
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
isnt reckless emboar the same thing as it was before, just more damage? it already had a great damage output before, but it was too slow and frail to be used. use victini.
Emboar isn't weak to SR and has STAB Superpower for water-types, which is usually safer to abuse than Bolt Strike. Also, it isn't always forced to switch out after making a kill, especially against stall.
This is probably the single worst post on this subject, and for your side that has been presented. Just looking at the things you've listed in the first category, FOUR of them are things it's type weak to, but after running the calcs now that I'm at home, only TWO of them (Raikou and Mega Venusaur) actually counter an unboosted Milotic, and the rest are very shaky checks, with Mega Man actually dying on the switch in if he's already Mega because his intimidate causes Milotic's Hydro Pump to OHKO him. Your list of setup things actually can't set up on it if it's running haze, bar Keldeo, and Altaria is an especially poor example as it's 2HKO'd by both Blizzard and Ice Beam.
Speaking of Defoggers, it actually threatens to OHKO most if not all of them if it switches into a defog. Even Zapdos is checked afterwards as Ice Beam will OHKO it on a high roll, and Blizzard will always OHKO it, while it can't KO even timid sets with Thunder. (does about 89% on a high roll, and this is with No hp investment on a Milotic)
I can dig if you don't like the nomination, but can you at least get your facts right?
Also, speaking of blacklisting, are people not bringing up Arcanine right now because it puts in work against Megagross? Things change, metas shift, etc.
My apologies if I'm distracting from the Milotic/other mons discussion, but I wanted to talk some about Clefable.
I am a proponent of Clefable's rise to S-rank. The main reason for this is how it can "get rolling" with its MG CM set. In RMTs or elsewhere, you often hear that a sweeper devastates teams "once its counters are gone," but in practice this can be difficult, because even if a sweeper's counters are gone, it still has to get in safely and set up without its health being compromised.
Unlike most more offensive sweepers, Clefable can pivot in very easily throughout the match, as Softboiled makes it difficult to wear down, assuming you don't misplay Clefable or overestimate is defensive capabilities. If its checks have been removed or sufficiently weakened, you can often just sacrifice something to get it in (or just directly switch it in), and then your opponent is basically helpless to stop it because of its juuust good enough bulk. When I see Clefable in team preview, I am very mindful that I need to keep my checks healthy or double switch into Clefable more aggressively early on because it is such a threat to sweep late game unless you over prepare for it, and you don't want to give it opportunities to weaken your checks. For that reason, I find it to be one of the best "comeback" Pokemon I have ever used or seen used. It just doesn't die if you aren't slamming it with a Bullet Punch or Iron Head. It's so easy to "get it rolling," and once it picks up a Calm Mind boost or two, many archetypes struggle to beat it.
I find that it compares favorably to other bulky sweepers who might also share that bulk or pivoting ability. Compared to Mega Slowbro, it either has better coverage or a crucial immunity to burn/toxic poison, and it also has Leftovers recovery. It also doesn't take up a Mega slot. Suicune makes itself far more vulnerable with Rest and has inferior coverage. These Pokemon have their own advantages and fulfill different defensive (and offensive) niches, but the point is that Clefable has all of the tools it needs. Furthermore, it's not like its counters are that hard to wear down: Excadrill, Metagross, Bisharp, ScarfTran, Talonflame, etc. either don't have recovery of any sort or struggle with residual damage. Some are tougher to wear down than others, but VenuTran, for example, is nowhere near as common as it was in XY, and this helps Clefable a great deal. It seems like this (wearing down counters) is a bit harder for Mega Slowbro and definitely Suicune, though I have little experience with the former so I could very well be wrong. Clefable can also help wear down its checks with Flamethrower or cripple them with Thunder Wave. It's just a really great Pokemon.
Otherwise, it has decent versatility (can run SR support, defensive or CM Unaware, etc.) that makes it even more splashable than it already was. Its sets all have similar counters though--this isn't Mega Lucario or even Aegislash we're talking about--but it still helps it fulfill a variety of roles, a criterion for S-rank.
The most common counter-argument I have seen is that Clefable's base stats are poor. I think this is true, and it holds Clefable back from being truly *amazing*, but rarely do Clefable's bad stats prevent it from doing its job. I would say that they're good…enough. I would say its low BST is one of its "few flaws" that is "patched up by its numerous positive traits."
I wouldn't say it's as clear-cut as I might be presenting it, but I think that Clefable is definite S-rank material. Just an opinion.
I am a proponent of Clefable's rise to S-rank. The main reason for this is how it can "get rolling" with its MG CM set. In RMTs or elsewhere, you often hear that a sweeper devastates teams "once its counters are gone," but in practice this can be difficult, because even if a sweeper's counters are gone, it still has to get in safely and set up without its health being compromised.
Unlike most more offensive sweepers, Clefable can pivot in very easily throughout the match, as Softboiled makes it difficult to wear down, assuming you don't misplay Clefable or overestimate is defensive capabilities. If its checks have been removed or sufficiently weakened, you can often just sacrifice something to get it in (or just directly switch it in), and then your opponent is basically helpless to stop it because of its juuust good enough bulk. When I see Clefable in team preview, I am very mindful that I need to keep my checks healthy or double switch into Clefable more aggressively early on because it is such a threat to sweep late game unless you over prepare for it, and you don't want to give it opportunities to weaken your checks. For that reason, I find it to be one of the best "comeback" Pokemon I have ever used or seen used. It just doesn't die if you aren't slamming it with a Bullet Punch or Iron Head. It's so easy to "get it rolling," and once it picks up a Calm Mind boost or two, many archetypes struggle to beat it.
I find that it compares favorably to other bulky sweepers who might also share that bulk or pivoting ability. Compared to Mega Slowbro, it either has better coverage or a crucial immunity to burn/toxic poison, and it also has Leftovers recovery. It also doesn't take up a Mega slot. Suicune makes itself far more vulnerable with Rest and has inferior coverage. These Pokemon have their own advantages and fulfill different defensive (and offensive) niches, but the point is that Clefable has all of the tools it needs. Furthermore, it's not like its counters are that hard to wear down: Excadrill, Metagross, Bisharp, ScarfTran, Talonflame, etc. either don't have recovery of any sort or struggle with residual damage. Some are tougher to wear down than others, but VenuTran, for example, is nowhere near as common as it was in XY, and this helps Clefable a great deal. It seems like this (wearing down counters) is a bit harder for Mega Slowbro and definitely Suicune, though I have little experience with the former so I could very well be wrong. Clefable can also help wear down its checks with Flamethrower or cripple them with Thunder Wave. It's just a really great Pokemon.
Otherwise, it has decent versatility (can run SR support, defensive or CM Unaware, etc.) that makes it even more splashable than it already was. Its sets all have similar counters though--this isn't Mega Lucario or even Aegislash we're talking about--but it still helps it fulfill a variety of roles, a criterion for S-rank.
The most common counter-argument I have seen is that Clefable's base stats are poor. I think this is true, and it holds Clefable back from being truly *amazing*, but rarely do Clefable's bad stats prevent it from doing its job. I would say that they're good…enough. I would say its low BST is one of its "few flaws" that is "patched up by its numerous positive traits."
I wouldn't say it's as clear-cut as I might be presenting it, but I think that Clefable is definite S-rank material. Just an opinion.
Last edited:
Why would Mega Manectric be switching into Milo? This thing has no business switching directly into special attackers in fact, let alone Competitive/Defiant abusers.
Also, Milotic has no room for Haze in general, as she really wants Scald, Dragon Tail, Recover or RestTalk and Ice Beam. Haze Milo was useful during the BP era.
Milo needs heavy prediction to switch directly into Zapdos as she really hates Thunderbolt, and as you stated Ice Beam is not guaranteed to OHKO.
A while ago Arcanine was nominated for D (page 14-16 or something)
^The main reason why Clefable isn't S-rank worthy are indeed its low stats, but also because Mega Metagross and Heatran are freaking everywhere.
Last edited:
What set are you proposing then? You are being somewhat ambiguous on the moves for the Milotic you are proposing. I just don't see the worth of using Milotic over mons like Suicune, Manaphy, etc.
Last edited:
No opinion on whether or not Emboar deserves a ranking (it's way too early for that), but the SR neutrality, Pursuit and Sucker Punch resistance, Fighting STAB and access to priority with its own Sucker Punch mean that it's not totally outclassed by Victini. I am curious how it stacks up to the weaker but faster Infernape, though.
I ran calcs against Manectric because the guy brought it up in his list of things that "destroy it outright" I used a max speed, max SpA timid set for Milotic against the standard Mega Man, as timid was one of the sets that got thrown around when people were trying out competitive.
+2 252 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 360-424 (128.1 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 252-296 (75.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Manectric Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 194-230 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not only can it not switch into this variant, but it can't revenge either.
I'm actually using offensive variants for these cause I remember that getting thrown around a lot in early XY. The set would basically be Hydro Pump, Blizzard/Ice Beam, Recover, and Coil. Scald is also an option, but the whole point of running coil would be to have both bulk and to use your stronger moves without worry of missing. Since I'm posting calcs now, might as well run up those defogger calcs. Assuming rocks are what's being defogged away of course (I neglected this in my first calcs)
+2 252 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 399-471 (119.4 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 306-360 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Milotic Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 374-440 (88.4 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 280-330 (66.1 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Milotic Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 436-514 (113.5 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 358-422 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 327-385 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
68 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 206-246 (62 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
68 SpA Zapdos Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 252-296 (75.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The Zapdos one is risky, but if you can predict it right, you can scare him out if not kill him.
Against some of those other things in that "outright destroy" list. Specs Raikou can't switch into a boosted Hydro Pump, or it dies, but otherwise it wins. Mega Venusaur actually loses to boosted Modest variants if rocks are up. Both otherwise he wins that one. Mega Sceptile can't switch in at all and needs to be running Leaf Storm in order to revenge kill. Gengar is 2HKOd by an unboosted Hydro Pump, and I have no idea what he plans to do back (the calc only pulled up Shadow Ball) Charizard Y can't switch into Hydro Pump or he fails to get the 2HKO.
Most of those set up sweepers can't switch into boosted variants and can't set up against haze variants running the old sets. I'm not going to remotely argue that its top tier material, but I think it can pull enough of it's own weight to be D rank. Hell, I haven't even gotten into coil boosts yet. Most of this is just the competitive ability in general.
Does anyone here think that rock head Tyrantrum might deserve a spot in the rankings? He is apparently going to released within in the next couple of days or so. I personally think at least worth a C- ranking, a scarf set would be pretty fantastic along with using head smash. He has a solid DD set, but it would probably be pretty outclassed in this meta aside from the advantage of head smashes.
It won't go higher than D imo
I've never seen this... a Trick Room Competitive abuser? Are we trying this hard to find a niche for this stupid thing? If you give any damn Pokemon a 2+ boost in attack, as well as a choice item that boosts this further, and the ability to outspeed the offensive meta thanks to a support a support move, yea, you're gonna kick some ass. Milotic has, what, 100 base special attack? That's PATHETIC for a Trick Room sweeper. Did I mention that Ferrothorn outspeeds Milotic while under Trick Room because 81 base speed is not very good for these types of teams? Also like why would TR need pressure against Defog? It's a playstyle that's not hazard-reliant at all and a lot of the time doesn't even set up hazards. It's literally hurting my eyes to read this, you can use Crawdaunt which hits MUCH harder, lets you CHOOSE moves, has PRIORITY, and, you know, doesn't get walled by common stall shit! Not to mention any special TR attacker out these outclasses Milotic to hell and back! As someone who's actually used TR before, this discussion is offensive to me. This is the most situational thing ever. keep it unranked, please, and show some respect to real TR sweepers.
I could see that too honestly, pretty bad defensive typing doesn't really help.
I'm guessing the appeal is that with no recoil, Head Smash is freely spammable, and you could forego the fangs entirely and just go smashquaking everything, with a side of outrage after steels and fairies are dead. There is the problem of head smash's middling accuracy, as DD will probably be the standard over hone claws
I think that "it has low stats" and "therefore it isn't S-rank" is a bit of a logical jump that needs more justification. If its stats don't prevent it from doing its job, then what's the problem?
Metagross doesn't have recovery and doesn't like taking Flamethrower, Fire Blast, or Thunder Wave. Not to say Metagross isn't a problem--it obviously is--but it's not like it's coming in for free or can't get worn down. I'm on the "Mega Metagross is OP" bandwagon as much as anyone, but it's not like Metagross is holding it back so much, especially since you can only run one mega evolution etc. etc.
Heatran is easier to take care of with team support and is one of the easier Pokemon to lure in the tier. If Heatran is the opponent's main Clefable check, I'm usually very confident I can pull off a sweep.
So if you could give reasoning for these since none of these have been elaborated on that'd be greatVolcarona to B
Lucario to B
Mew to B-
100 Special Attack pathetic? Tell that to Exploud, which has 91 (STAB Boomburst). Milotic's Hydro Pump isn't that much weaker...
Ferrothorn outspeeds Milo and... fails to OHKO.
IDK, without SR stuff such as Exploud and Camerupt miss out on many KOs, so i guess Competitive could find some use.
Crawdaunt can't switch into anything, which means it needs the sacrifice of a Trick Room user while setting up Trick Room. I'd rather use Azumarill if i really wanted a physical water-type abuser to use in TR, since it can actually take a hit and is even slower.
81 base speed with 0 IVs means 150 which is honestly not that bad for TR.
It's situational, yes, but if you ask me stuff such as Flygon and Salamence are even more situational.
Last edited:
- Status