It's immune to T-wave. It gets free subs on Rotom-W. It's especially effective behind a sub because that's really all it needs. It tears through Balance. Only reason I don't agree with A- is because of it's countered by three of the most common pokemon in the metagame, Clefable, Altaria, Sylveon and Chansey.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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Also, on Mega Sceptile... I'd be fine with it moving down - though I'm actually not sure if it's on the same level as the 'mon in B and should probably stay B+ - and I don't think it should move up, but can we please stop the comparisons to Serperior?
Yes, they're both fast, offensive grass-types with pretty much the same coverage. But they are in no way the same Pokémon and one does not outclass the other. To me, Mega Sceptile's main role is basically a very budget Greninja. It gets in, uses it's speed - which outpaces every unboosted 'mon in the meta other than bee, zam and aero - and it's special attack which you lot are really underrating combined with it's coverage to decimate something or force it out, then gets out itself. Serperior could not dream of doing this. Until it uses Leaf Storm, it's offensive presence is absolutely nil. It can't come in on something and destroy it right away, it needs a leaf storm under it's belt. Hell, if you want to compare it to Substitute Sceptile, even then the comparison is flawed. Substitute Sceptile takes hits while firing off it's attacks, while Serperior keeps setting up and can't take a super effective one. The two perform entirely different roles and one cannot be said to outclass the other, nor can Serperior be said to be a substitute for Mega Sceptile should you want to use another Mega.
Yes, they're both fast, offensive grass-types with pretty much the same coverage. But they are in no way the same Pokémon and one does not outclass the other. To me, Mega Sceptile's main role is basically a very budget Greninja. It gets in, uses it's speed - which outpaces every unboosted 'mon in the meta other than bee, zam and aero - and it's special attack which you lot are really underrating combined with it's coverage to decimate something or force it out, then gets out itself. Serperior could not dream of doing this. Until it uses Leaf Storm, it's offensive presence is absolutely nil. It can't come in on something and destroy it right away, it needs a leaf storm under it's belt. Hell, if you want to compare it to Substitute Sceptile, even then the comparison is flawed. Substitute Sceptile takes hits while firing off it's attacks, while Serperior keeps setting up and can't take a super effective one. The two perform entirely different roles and one cannot be said to outclass the other, nor can Serperior be said to be a substitute for Mega Sceptile should you want to use another Mega.
My stand on this is that Sceptile should stay where it is. It's a great mega who's unique typing allows it to check quiet a few mons. But it's pros and cons are very obvious. And please don't bring up Swords dance, it's not something that should be taken into consideration.
I think I read somewhere, maybe on the Serperior page that Life Orb Serperior hits harder then M Sceptile, cept for Dragon STAB of course. But yeah they shouldn't be compared so much.
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Pent
dumb broad
This may just be favoritism, but I feel Mega Absol should move to C+/B-.
With Mega Absol's new access to Knock Off and Sucker Punch, it gives it two great Stabs that it really needed to function . It has plenty of utility, being able to function as a Mixed Sweeper, or the most popular set being straight up physical. Since Mega Absol also get's access to Superpower and Play Rough, it helps out with it's main threats of Fighting Types and Bisharp. Also, being granted with a base 115 Special Attack stat, the mixed set can hit pretty hard too, since it get's things like Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Dark Pulse, and others.
Also 115 Speed isn't bad at all, with a beneficial nature and max investment, it outspeeds Lati@s, Celebi, Jirachi, Mew, Mega Gallade, Gengar, Keldeo, Thundurus, and so on and so forth. While Speed Tying with Raikou, Starmie, and others.
Feel free to discuss.
With Mega Absol's new access to Knock Off and Sucker Punch, it gives it two great Stabs that it really needed to function . It has plenty of utility, being able to function as a Mixed Sweeper, or the most popular set being straight up physical. Since Mega Absol also get's access to Superpower and Play Rough, it helps out with it's main threats of Fighting Types and Bisharp. Also, being granted with a base 115 Special Attack stat, the mixed set can hit pretty hard too, since it get's things like Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Dark Pulse, and others.
Also 115 Speed isn't bad at all, with a beneficial nature and max investment, it outspeeds Lati@s, Celebi, Jirachi, Mew, Mega Gallade, Gengar, Keldeo, Thundurus, and so on and so forth. While Speed Tying with Raikou, Starmie, and others.
Feel free to discuss.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 192-227 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 229-271 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There's a pretty significant power difference.
Don't most sceptiles run energy ball/giga drain so he can stay in and not be set up bait, scept hits with leaf storm and has to switch while serp doesn't.
A lot of these responses would be nice in the simple questions simple answers thread. Just letting you guys know that's there judging by the page or so of one liners and uninformative responses that nobody is going to take into account when it comes to the rankings. Thanks for noticing.
Pent
dumb broad
Sometimes Sceptile runs Leaf Storm for better power, but he said serp hits harder, so they compared their strongest moves.
I agree with all these points but there's one thing that you failed to mention, its pretty mediocre defenses. It's susceptable to common forms of priority in the tier. Here's some calcs to show you what I mean:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 180-213 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 181-214 (66.7 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 244-288 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 355-418 (130.9 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 296-350 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 136-161 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's worth mentioning that only talonflame is 2HKOed by absol's sucker punch, the others are relatively safe from a 2HKO baring non-mega scizor. With this in mind I'd like to see absol kept where it is. It didn't really gain anything in ORAS other than the ability to use both knock off and play rough on the same set.
Just a few things before I start off:-
-Mega Absol has had Sucker Punch and Knock Off since Poké Bank. If it didn't it'd be downright unviable.
-Don't use Dark Pulse, Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball. Please.
Anyway, I really don't think it fits well into this meta and I feel people are overrating it's new ability to have both Knock Off and Play Rough quite a bit. While this is of course a buff, it really seems to be the only reason people have advocated a move up and I have to disagree with it because it appears to ignore every other metagame change. For one, you have Mega Metagross. Currently ruling the metagame and on about 14% of all teams if the usage stats are to be believed, Mega Metagross at most takes 80% from Absol, and that's from a max roll Sucker Punch. It then KOs back very easily with... any move really. This is problem number 1: the metagame has taken up a more bulky offence feel with the arrival of ORAS. This means Mega Absol finds it difficult to get off a KO at all, and if it can't, it dies to literally any move.
Problem number 2 is that there's a ton of fairies now. Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria, not to mention the return of Mega Gardevoir pose a great threat to Absol who has no moves it can really hurt them with unless it runs Iron Tail (lol). Even Mega Gardevoir only takes a maximum of 84% (sucker punch) from Absol.
Problem number 3 is that the set that's been hyped up the most is Swords Dance. If you're nominating it based on another set than SD please feel free to ignore this; but this is the set touted the most. When does Mega Absol get the chance to set this up? Looking at the S and A ranks alone, it either fears a very hard hit, a scald burn or being outsped and wrecked by just about anything there. Gengar, Mega Sableye and Celebi seem to be the only things it can truly set up on, and it might force out Keldeo and Mega Gallade, but honestly half the meta shreds this thing to pieces. Hell, just setting up a Mega Evolution is a problem for largely the same reasons, in addition to a lot more thing outspeeding you you could usually beat with coverage such as Gallade and non-scarf Keldeo.
Problem number 4, there's been a big speed creep with ORAS. While this seems in contradiction to Greninja's banning putting pressure off for, say, base 110s and base 115s, there's still a lot of things Absol has to worry about being outpaced by -- naturally faster Megas like Sceptile and Beedrill have been introduced, faster threats that have risen since Greninja's ban such as Tornadus-T and Weavile have popped back up, not to mention Mega Aerodactyl being very good at the anti-meta job right now. There has also been a great resurgence of Rain, and Mega Swampert only uses Absol as set-up fodder. Finally, any scarfer or D-Dancer has nothing to fear from Absol right now, and rarer boosters such as RP Diancie, RP Metagross and Sharpedo also exist.
Finally, Problem number 5, opportunity cost. This is a problem many lower-tiered Megas are facing right now thanks to ORAS bringing us like 17 new ones or something, and you have to ask yourself on which team will Mega Absol truly be the best fit in a meta invested with fairies, bulky offence and priority? It's frail, it didn't get anything much in the ORAS metagame shift and it only got more things that threaten it.
If anything, I feel Absol should Stay where it is. This meta is not kind to it in the slightest, Play Rough alone is not enough of a buff and it is in no way consistent enough to move up to C+, never mind B-. I don't mind it staying where it is but it's really not good enough to rise.
I was comparing Leaf Storms in the whole 'comes in hits shit gets out' scenario; some Sceptile fill this role while others prefer a Sub, which by the way really fucks over stall. Serperior's Leaf Storm is of course more powerful than Mega Sceptile's Energy Ball, but the point here was to show that Mega Sceptile can come in and do a lot more damage than Serperior can. In addition there's also Dragon Pulse which is of course more powerful than Serperior's.
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AM asked someone to comment on the Noivern discussion and I figured I would put it out there that Noivern isn't actually a bad Pokemon. It has a fantastic Speed tier (though I guess it's less useful without Greninja in the tier), better coverage than Latios thanks to Focus Blast, an incredibly useful Flying STAB in Hurricane, and access to Taunt, which combine to give it a usable niche. It's not a fantastic Pokemon by any means, but it's certainly not complete garbage. -Clone- the comparison to Tornadus-T isn't really valid when you consider the huge advantage afforded by having a STAB move with non-garbage accuracy and the usefulness of a Dragon STAB in general. Really the only way they can be compared is that they're fast and have access to STAB Hurricane, but the similarities end there. Noivern shouldn't move up, but it should stay where it is.
The comparison I read was using Mew as well but was using Giga Drain. It shouldn't make a difference though but weird. I'll try to find the post if I can.
Edit: also Leaf Storm practically forces it to switch out.
My posts on it literally keep stating "gets in, kills shit, gets out" :/
I checked and it was Leaf Storm from Serp vs Giga Drain from Scep. Personally, I've been disappointed with M Sceptile. It couldn't KO my friends M Beedrill. That was disappointing. Honestly though, I'd still prefer to use Energy Ball most of the time.
Well mega beedrill isn't nearly as frail on the special side (65/80) as it is on the physical side (65/40) but I've been using mega sceptile a good bit lately and I feel it fits in pretty well in B+. It can out speed and ohko threats like keldeo, terrakion, lati@s (needs a little previous damage for Latias), +1 bulky zard x, pretty much any other dragon type, starmie, slowbro, bisharp, mega lopunny, mega diancie, diggersby, magnezone, and several other prominent pokes as well as being able to completely wall and set up sub's on rotom wash. If your opponents team is weakened a little bit and any of its counters are gone it is really easy to clean with late game. Its speed and initial power allows it to differentiate itself from serperior as well. Not saying that it should be raised but I definitely don't think it should drop.
Stop comparing Serp and Scept here, the only things similar about them are they're fast grass types, Serp is meant to sweep with Contrary leaf storms, while Scept is a hit and run poke that can beat dragons due to it's dragon STAB, which Serp only does after a leaf storm. I know Scept has a sub/giga drain set but it only really sets up on walls (which it can't really beat easily) and Rotom-W. It's best used to screw momentum and nuke. Getting it mega'd is a liability too, I've already stated I think it should drop as it and bee were both overhyped, and aren't quite as good in practice as they are in theory, mostly due to oppertunity cost and being hard to mega.
As for Absol, who got brought up after I last posted, shouldn't rise as someone argued with a very accurate bunch of facts.
As for Absol, who got brought up after I last posted, shouldn't rise as someone argued with a very accurate bunch of facts.
Agreeing with M-Sceptile to stay where it is. It's speed tier is amazing and the sub set is good for lategame cleaning, but 145 SpA isn't that much considering he doesn't get to hold an item I.e. Life Orb, weakening his output (insert calcs here, I'm on my phone :/). When you look at Mega Metagross, it's offense is the equivalent of Mega Sceptile's, almost mirroring each others attacking stats except reversed pretty much. Tough Claws makes up for this for Meta, and while Sceptile has the incredibly powerful STAB leaf storm up its sleeve, it makes Sceptile setup fodder and the rest of its STAB and coverage are relatively weak. Overall in this meta game, there are more powerful pokes you could be using for your Mega, and while Sceptile isn't bad by any means at all (its one of my personal favorite pokes tbh), it doesn't warrant a higher ranking and it's fine where it is at B+.
I just realized how many posts here probably get deleted even if they mean no harm. Oh well.
A post complaining about posts getting deleted is going to get deleted as well lol.
On second thought a post complaining about someone complaining about posts getting deleted will also be deleted...
Or you can tone down the level of obnoxiousness, stupidity, along with self pity and stop making pointless posts that don't provide anything substantial towards any sort of discussion. If I read the post and it's on the verge of being cringe worthy, a pointless one liner, petty debate over something that should be discussed through pms, or is something replying to anything that falls under that category with an equally pointless post that has the potential to make a rock look like Einstein, then chances are it's getting deleted. It's really not that difficult to put some substance in your post that makes it worth reading so that others, especially the ranking team, can actually reflect upon it. So stop loathing over your deleted post and stop replying to the loathers. Move on.
I agree with Mega Sceptile staying where it is. Mega Sceptile may be a great pokemon but with a combination of weakish STABs (excluding leaf storm) and lack of a boosting item really hold it back from greatness. It has a decent typing defensively but is weak to common forms of priority including Ice shard and brave bird. It's also not that great offensively because it's STABs leave much to be desired, being walled by common defensive walls like Heatran and Ferrothorn.
Mega Sceptile should just stay where it is until the metagame develops more.
Mega Sceptile should just stay where it is until the metagame develops more.
RichieTheGarchomp
Banned deucer.
Hmm... These rankings seem really good. Its a bit hard to rank things while we are in suspect, too :p.
The more I look at it, however, I just feel like Weavile should be put to B+. Having little switchins, this guy is a true monster. It's one of the most anti meta mons we ever got. Dark/Fight coverage is godly itself, now pair that shit with Ice? Basically every anti meta mon is Ice Type, and Weavile is no short of that. Of course, its weak against basically every form of Priority, but it also has priority itself, making it a great revenge killer and a great "last resort" tactic. Knock Off and Low Kick combine with support and the ability to check basically every Bulky Steel. Easily is Offense's bane after Priority is handled. It has a few checks/counters here and there, but this is overshadowed because you can form cores to stop this flaw. This guy defines a High B ranked mon imo.
The more I look at it, however, I just feel like Weavile should be put to B+. Having little switchins, this guy is a true monster. It's one of the most anti meta mons we ever got. Dark/Fight coverage is godly itself, now pair that shit with Ice? Basically every anti meta mon is Ice Type, and Weavile is no short of that. Of course, its weak against basically every form of Priority, but it also has priority itself, making it a great revenge killer and a great "last resort" tactic. Knock Off and Low Kick combine with support and the ability to check basically every Bulky Steel. Easily is Offense's bane after Priority is handled. It has a few checks/counters here and there, but this is overshadowed because you can form cores to stop this flaw. This guy defines a High B ranked mon imo.
Looking at the lower rankings, I found that there are way more mons in C that there is in C+ (20 compared to 11). I don't know if there was any discussion about that mon, but I would like to nominate Porygon2 to C+.
It can Trace many useful abilities such as Gliscor's Poison Heal, Heatran's Flash Fire, Lando-T's Intimidate, etc. Also, it can beat every relevant trapper by switching in from a Shed Shell mon (Skarmory, Ferrothorn, you name 'em) and trapping them (and itself!). Still, Magnezone/ton are trapped only if they're not using Volt Switch as P2 switches in and the latter has to be wary of Trick from Gothitelle.
Speaking of Trick, P2 loves its Eviolite as much as Chansey loves hers, maybe even more, and is as vulnerable to losing its item, but then, which mon (aside from Megas) loves having its item Tricked of Knocked Off?
Furthermore, depending on its set (specially/physically defensive and TR), it can check/counter many mons such as the mons mentionned in the second paragraph, Gyarados (and his Mega counterpart if P2 switches in when he Megaevolves), [Mega] Garchomp without SD, M-Aerodactyl, M-Sceptile, M-Houndoom, M-Swampert, Diggersby, Mamoswine (Superpower fails to 2HKO due to the Atk drop), Skarmory, Tentacruel and others.
P2 has also many tools at its disposal. T-Wave and Toxic for status spreading, Magic Coat to bounce back statuses, Taunts, entry hazards and other stuff, Conversion 2 is great against Choice-locked mons. Oh and btw, P2 can also have Foul Play to deal with M-Metagross. That's right. It has a way of dealing substantial damage to the single best OU mon (Hammer Arm has a slim chance to 2HKO though):
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Tough Claws Porygon2 Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, yeah. Certain new threats from the ORAS metagame are checked/countered by P2 and therefore, I think we should rise Porygon2 to C+.
(First time posting here, so I may be missing something very important)
It can Trace many useful abilities such as Gliscor's Poison Heal, Heatran's Flash Fire, Lando-T's Intimidate, etc. Also, it can beat every relevant trapper by switching in from a Shed Shell mon (Skarmory, Ferrothorn, you name 'em) and trapping them (and itself!). Still, Magnezone/ton are trapped only if they're not using Volt Switch as P2 switches in and the latter has to be wary of Trick from Gothitelle.
Speaking of Trick, P2 loves its Eviolite as much as Chansey loves hers, maybe even more, and is as vulnerable to losing its item, but then, which mon (aside from Megas) loves having its item Tricked of Knocked Off?
Furthermore, depending on its set (specially/physically defensive and TR), it can check/counter many mons such as the mons mentionned in the second paragraph, Gyarados (and his Mega counterpart if P2 switches in when he Megaevolves), [Mega] Garchomp without SD, M-Aerodactyl, M-Sceptile, M-Houndoom, M-Swampert, Diggersby, Mamoswine (Superpower fails to 2HKO due to the Atk drop), Skarmory, Tentacruel and others.
P2 has also many tools at its disposal. T-Wave and Toxic for status spreading, Magic Coat to bounce back statuses, Taunts, entry hazards and other stuff, Conversion 2 is great against Choice-locked mons. Oh and btw, P2 can also have Foul Play to deal with M-Metagross. That's right. It has a way of dealing substantial damage to the single best OU mon (Hammer Arm has a slim chance to 2HKO though):
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Tough Claws Porygon2 Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, yeah. Certain new threats from the ORAS metagame are checked/countered by P2 and therefore, I think we should rise Porygon2 to C+.
(First time posting here, so I may be missing something very important)
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