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I'm not the most avid OU player anymore, but one thing sort of stands out to me as of late when spectating, battling, and even team building: Manaphy has established himself as a potent force against balanced ('standard') that can also do well vs an unprepared stall or get a kill or two vs offense given a free turn. The best set (imo) is TG + 3 attacks and the real catch is trying to bring a counter to this - because there are hardly any until you know all the moves and by the time you do, it's already likely too late as you've lost a Ferrothorn to a +3 HP Fire or a Keldeo to a +3 Energy Ball while trading 60% w/ Specs Sword. At this point, Manaphy has already done its job if it's gotten a kill of this nature and then it's still alive and (potentially) healthy, giving it more chances to abuse it's coverage + current boosts or at least forcing the opponent to bring in a RKer and granting you momentum afterwards. Moreover, the coverage, fairly easy time it has getting a boost up, and challenge that most teams have countering it (as it can run scald, ice beam, energy ball, hp fire, and even psychic I guess) make Manaphy worthy of A+ rank given the uprise of it over the last few months.
I want to throw in my support for Manaphy to A+. Not only does it tear apart, raze, demolish (you get the idea) stall and balance, with the latter being the most common build, but it has a variety of sets, and there really isn't a 'true' counter. I mean, you have no idea what the hell the Manaphy you're facing is running. Is it a CM set? Is it a TG+3 Attacks set? Is it a TG+RD set? Is it Wacan Berry? Does it have Shadow Ball for your Latios? Does it have HP Fire for Ferrothorn? etc. etc.. The sheer versatility it gets really warrants it to be the same rank as Garchomp in my opinion.
I know stall isn't the most common, but balance is a playstyle Manaphy does truly destroy. TG+3 Attacks is probably the best set, like ^above set - I prefer TG+scald+shadow ball+hp fire sometimes, but that's just me.
Altaria may have more-or-less surpassed Metagross as the go-to-mega you should be afraid of, but even so Clefable still has the same flaws it always has and which have always prevented it from going S rank. The main problem with Clefable is how easily it can get overwhelmed. It always seems to live hits from the skin of its teeth both on the physical and special side, and just a little bit of chip damage can prevent it from switching into Thundurus or Kyu-B or Garchomp or Landorus-T. I get that it's a great blanket check to a bunch of things and hence really splashable, but you can say the same about Heatran and Gliscor. And like these last two, it's vulnerable to a bunch of stuff no matter what it runs, and the amount of support it potentailly provides is mitigated by the fact that it's not hard to bring it in 2HKO range of something, which makes it unable to provide said support. And unlike Heatran and Gliscor, it's outsped by pretty much any offensive threat which makes it pretty simple to revenge kill and prone to recieving crit/flinchhax which can otherwise stop a CM sweep. Clefable is certainly great but S rank implies that there is little to no risk in using it, and that's not really the case here.
I'm honestly not sure why MGyara moved down in the first place considering that it's a huge threat to a ton of teams, both offensive and defensive, and sets up really easily. I mean yeah, MAltaria exists and teambuilding can be a pain in the ass when your main wincon is beaten by it, but Sableye is equally if not more ruined by it and that's A+ as well. Even though MGyara is checked by common mons like Keldeo and Altaria is has options for these, Keldeo takes a good chunk +1 EQ and can't even OHKO back if it's Sub CM (also Keldeo isn't super hard to weaken either), and Iron Head is a really legitimate option for Altaria given that at +1 is OHKOs offensive variants after SR.
There's a common misconception that Waterfall is mandatory on MGyara when it really isn't. Crunch is such a good STAB that Gyara often ends up only using Waterfall when it needs a flinch to sweep, Crunch being more spammable for the most part. You can easily get creative with Gyara's coverage and run, idk, Crunch/Iron Head/EQ/DD if you're not weak to Hippowdon and benefit from both luring Altaria and severly weakening Keldeo. You can even drop EQ for Sub or Taunt, rolling with Bisharp coverage but with extra stallbreaking capabilities. It's more versatile than people give it credit for. So yeah, bump this thing up to A+
I don't agree with Ferro moving up simply becuase it's both one of the easier things to take advantage of and wear down. It provides really good Spikes support (kind of a mediocre SRer though) and blanket checks a bunch of stuff, but every time you send it out you risk it a) getting worn down and being unable to switch in afterwards and b) giving a free turn to really scary stuff like the Zards, Talonflame and Keldeo. Leech Seed is probably the main reason it's being suggested for a move up, it's admittedly a really nice way of supporting the team while insuring longevity and outlasting your opponents, but bulky Grass types like Celebi, Venusaur and most of all, opposing Ferrothorn can easily hinder that startegy, and while Magic Guard Clefable can't switch in, it can force mindgames with it and prevent it from getting Leed Seed health back while.
It's not even a good answer to Azu since one half is banded and carries Superpower to hit the often obvious switchin from Ferro, and the other runs Belly Drum and outright destroys Ferro with Knock Off without even needing to predict. In fact, half the things it wants to check tend to run Fire coverage for it, (like Garchomp, Latios and, more recently, Manaphy) or can just set up in its face and 2HKO it (like Bisharp, Excadrill and, once again, Garchomp). Ferro is just not as reliable as any of the defensive threats in A, both as a team supporter and as a wall.
Also can we move Hydreigon up to B+? This thing is really good at threatening balanced teams with its combination of fantastic coverage and solid defensive typing+1 immunity enabling it to come in on a bunch of common balance mons like Hippo Celebi Heatran Slowbro Rotom and some Manaphy variants. Also it's one of the better Landorus checks and acts as a specially offensive dragon which isn't Pursuit bait (in fact it checks Bisharp rather nicely) as well as an offensive Dark type which can actually threaten Keldeo without having to resort to lure moves like Aerial Ace and Thunder Punch. It's just a really nice and underappreciated mon and feels on par with the rest of B+ to me.
Welp don't mean to be a likewhore but wanna make sure this nom doesn't die :[]
Welp before the thread closes lemme make one case real quick Mega Garchomp to B+/B
This monster being in B- makes me really cry ;_;
The main argument i hear most of the time is "muh opportunity cost" or "kyu-b is better"
Well honestly i can kinda agree with the first one, but I like to think of mgarchomp as a swift swimmer for rain teams.
Its not so much that you need rain to use swift swimmers, its more that you get to use swift swimmers and providing rain is just a minor cost.
In the same way that its a privilege to be able to use swift swimmers cuz they're so friggin fast and strong, Mega garchomp is so fucking powerful (with incredible raw bulk) that its honestly a privilege to be able to build around that god.
The second part: comparing to kyu-b.
Well the both are dragons. Both are around the same speed benchmark, just short of the crucial 100. Both are wallbreakers. Both have very high BST
The similarities pretty much end there...
Where it starts to get different is this, and this is the part that matters the most: What each wallbreaker is pressuring and what it can kill.
When you look at kyu-b when building a stall team, you think of getting steels. Scizor, ferrothorn, jirachi, because fairies are for the most part perishing to ice beam (252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
But kyu-b has options to pressure steels, mainly hp fire. So even those aren't a surefire answer.
In the end, your only real answers to kyu-b are pretty much shit like ttar and av conk :L even tar needs to be scarfed to not just get steamrolled by CB outrage.
So effectively, kyu-b has no counters to all its sets. That's pretty good.
Its ice/electric coverage lets it destroy stuff like grounds/waters, and its raw power for the most part handles fairies.
So to summarize kyu-b pressures steels/fairies and beats grounds/waters.
Now when you think of mega garchomp when building a stall team, you give up. You just move on. You realize that you're never gonna counter this thing, you just be sure to keep sab unmega'd for this thing alone, and you move on to the next threat. More often than not all that stall teams have is starmie and hope to scald burn :L
I mean once this thing gets to +2 (and nearly as much raw bulk as ferrothorn vs a stall team trust me it is) you really just click x.
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 376-444 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (calc isn't workin w/megas, i factored in the stats)
I mean unboosted it pressures shit like slowbro and skarm but in optimal conditions there's seriously nothing that can stand up to it.
So to summarize mgarchomp pressures waters/grounds and beats steels/fairies
Kyu-b and mega garchomp pressure almost the exact opposite shit. And these guys are wallbreakers? How can you seriously compare these two when they break through and are checked by almost the exact opposite mons? But no then people went ahead and dismissed kyu-b as better in every regard or some bs and moved mchomp down. I never really understood that :I
Now lets move onto its bulk. As i've already mentioned before, mega garchomp's bulk (108/115/95, sum is 318) is comparable to ferrothorn's ( 74/131/116, sum is 321) Kyu-b stands at 125/100/90, sum is 315. In terms of being able to take hits, seriously, mega garchomp is totally freaking set.
You could argue that kyu-b has roost, something that mgarchomp doesn't have. Well, mega garchomp has swords dance. take a wild guess as to which one is more important for wallbreakers.
Another thing that separates the two: Kyu-b has no counters factoring in multiple sets, but each one of them have some checks at the very least.
Mega garchomp has zero answers to just one set, your only option is to revenge kill.
And we can't forget their typing either, mega garchomp resists rocks and generally has a far better defensive typing than kyu-b does, which is weak to common priority like bp and mach punch and weak to rocks.
But the best part is obviously the power. I'll just cover the "best" (imo) set and move on with the calcs. Here's the set i run for reference.
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 376-444 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable in Sand: 250-295 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sand: 216-255 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(most ppl run sdef anyway, which is this)
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory in Sand: 284-335 (85 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz in Sand: 582-686 (137.5 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Sand: 382-451 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sand: 384-453 (97.4 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Sand: 474-558 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 372-438 (122.7 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 399-469 (95 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Sand: 351-414 (115.4 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (mega stats)
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria in Sand: 384-453 (108.4 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (mega stats)
+1 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 307-363 (80.3 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 330-388 (88.2 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Of course, its very prone to revenge killing. It requires sand support for most of these kills (it's gettin 2hko regardless but anyways).
But its one mon. Running one set. OHKO'ing almost every relevant physically defensive mon in the tier.
And this thing is B-?
TL; DR one set on mega chomp massacres everything and that's worth the sand support and mega slot it needs.
/essay
That aside, i've been using mega gyara a TON, and i fully support it deserves A+.
I mean not only does it set up on just TRUCKLOADS of shit, you also have to consider how much ease it puts into teambuilding.
After all, normal gyara is your exca check, keldeo check, kinda your mega lop check, etc and mega gyara can be ur psychic check and what not.
Gyara's checks are super easy to pressure (keldeo, clefable, ferro) or are just easy in general to pair with partners who set up on the following (most notably talonflame)
I think one more thing a lot of people overlook is that ferro is really only an answer to gyarados if it has power whip.
Not only does +1 crunch 2hko (don't quote me on this, i might be wrong), but normal gyara is setting up on ferrothorn if it is lacking power whip.
Its not exactly the greatest check, considering a good chunk of ferro do run only gyro as their attacking move.
basically its really easy to pair with shit even IF it doesn't finish the job, checks a ton of stuff for the team, and sets up fucking everywhere.
It also is pretty good at crushing all these mega lop+aegi i'm seeing on 90% of teams on the suspect ladder jeez.
So move up mega gyara for sure.
Hydreigon i don't have much experience with but it comes off as a very cool mon, just typing wise alone, becuz of its ground immunity along with dark+ghost resistances, really only shared with mandibae. It provides a cool set of resistances that offense usually doesn't have the luxury to, and can in general help counteract some psychic saturation that often occurs (celebi, victini, lati, jirachi) in teambuilding. Its pretty strong and has a good movepool, attackwise and support (taunt+roost stand out) so I think it definitely has the flexibility there to pull of several different sets.
I've straight up never used it but looking at this alone i feel like its better than B mons.
Manaphy i still don't really like moving up to A+, i talked about it before but basically
1) no initial power. Fucking zero.
2) needs several movesets to beat all of its checks, even after a boost (No AM, shadow ball isn't enough for ferro :L )
3) Depending on the above, it STILL needs support from its teammates to cover the mons its limited movepool can't. It's not independent. (Even stab/tg/psychic/shadow ball needs ferro/azu very weakened to do its job)
4) very prone to revenge killing (aka doesn't do jack vs offense)
Somebody, i think hollywood, once said it "threatens offense with STAB scald" acting (haha hollywood, acting, very funny move on) like stab scald is some powerful move or something lol. Stab scald unboosted is so pitifully weak i really can't see how that justifies being jack shit vs offense.
A more valid argument would be Finch's, where if it grabs a free turn it can get one or two kills vs offense, but I feel like that applies to EVERYTHING that can set up at all :/ It's not really special that you can do that lol. If it had more initial power, maybe it could move up, but as it stands there's really no great reason to.
Moreover, about getting kills vs offense:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 277-328 (76.7 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 270-320 (74.7 - 88.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 306-360 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 374-439 (103.6 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 296-350 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's assuming it gets a completely free turn, and has ZERO chip damage other than rocks (not even sand). And these pretty common mons on offense (especially lati) are more or less finishing the job, completely neutering it :/ It's not even gonna get ANY kill vs offense sometimes, even given a free turn.
(I do understand that wacan is a valid choice as an item but that's still not savin u from lati)
Serperior is at least A rank. The Nasty Plot boost and damage output of its powerfully spamable Leaf Storm more than make up for its lack of coverage moves. Serperior may be customized with the proper Hidden Power depending on your team and what Pokemon on the opposing team it aims to eliminate.
With a Miracle Seed and a +2, Leaf Storm rapes Latios, Gengar, Bisharp, etc. all of which 'resist' Grass-type moves. With Hidden Power Fire, it destroys Ferrothorn. Hidden Power Ground with Expert Belt destroys Heatran. Holding a Coba Berry and Hidden Power Rock destroys Charizard-Y, Volcarona, and any Talonflame dumb enough to Brave Bird Serperior. It also has access to
Glare to cripple incoming Tornadus-T, Serperior's nemesis.
With Azumarill, Diancie-Mega, Manaphy, Slowbro, or Rotom-W, etc. virtually in every team, spamming Leaf Storm becomes ever easier, which makes Serperior a fearsome sweeper and deserving of A rank.
Absolutely have to second the Serp nom. When I'm teambuilding I actually find it incredibly easy to fit onto many balance/offence archetypes as either a win con or a late-game cleaner - this is made all the more easier when you consider there isn't really anything else that does it's job, so there's pretty much no opportunity cost in using it. I find it to be hands down the best offensive grass-type available to us - which in addition makes it a first-stop option for FWG cores. I always found it's ease to fit onto teams very contradictory to it's placement below the A rankings. A- at the very least.
Also seconding the Serp nom, it's pretty unique as it gives us a viable offensive grass type. Contrary is more than just spamming Leaf Storm, it can brag a somewhat similar niche to the deadly A+ Bisharp - as a Defog deterrent, as well as screwing over random web teams. It can also take advantage of freely switching in to the many bulky Waters and Grounds of the tier, and then threaten with a boosting Leaf Storm which puts huge pressure on balanced teams. And yeah its coverage is kinda meh but it does make up for it with cool moves like Torment, Taunt, Leech Seed, Substitute, Synthesis, Knock Off and Glare, the latter two are really nice for screwing over Torn-T switch ins. To conclude, Serp has ways to cripple or get past many of its checks / counters, and can boast offensive pressure, which makes it worthy of an A- / A rank, in my opinion. People also are quick to say Grass is a crap typing, but I think it's actually pretty nice to have considering it can deal with the many waters and grounds of the tier, and finding that in one slot for an offensive mon was previously difficult.
Grass moves are indeed rather crappy offensively, I ageee. Serperior, however, makes it work with its combination of Speed, ability, and ridiculously powerful STAB Leaf Storm. I don't have access to a damage calculator right now. But if I recall correctly, a Miracle Seed boosted Leaf Storm actually does more damage (or about the same) to Bisharp than Hidden Power Fire does.
Also with Miracle Seed, Leaf Storm cleanly OHKO standard Rotom-W, Keldeo, etc. With a +2, it guarantees a OHKO on Gengar and Latios after Stealth Rock damage, if I recall correctly. With two boosted Leaf Storms, even Mega-Metagross and Mega-Altaria would wet their basements. In a way, it's like spamming Victini's V-create, without any negative drawback.
Altaria may have more-or-less surpassed Metagross as the go-to-mega you should be afraid of, but even so Clefable still has the same flaws it always has and which have always prevented it from going S rank. The main problem with Clefable is how easily it can get overwhelmed. It always seems to live hits from the skin of its teeth both on the physical and special side, and just a little bit of chip damage can prevent it from switching into Thundurus or Kyu-B or Garchomp or Landorus-T. I get that it's a great blanket check to a bunch of things and hence really splashable, but you can say the same about Heatran and Gliscor. And like these last two, it's vulnerable to a bunch of stuff no matter what it runs, and the amount of support it potentailly provides is mitigated by the fact that it's not hard to bring it in 2HKO range of something, which makes it unable to provide said support. And unlike Heatran and Gliscor, it's outsped by pretty much any offensive threat which makes it pretty simple to revenge kill and prone to recieving crit/flinchhax which can otherwise stop a CM sweep. Clefable is certainly great but S rank implies that there is little to no risk in using it, and that's not really the case here.
I'm honestly not sure why MGyara moved down in the first place considering that it's a huge threat to a ton of teams, both offensive and defensive, and sets up really easily. I mean yeah, MAltaria exists and teambuilding can be a pain in the ass when your main wincon is beaten by it, but Sableye is equally if not more ruined by it and that's A+ as well. Even though MGyara is checked by common mons like Keldeo and Altaria is has options for these, Keldeo takes a good chunk +1 EQ and can't even OHKO back if it's Sub CM (also Keldeo isn't super hard to weaken either), and Iron Head is a really legitimate option for Altaria given that at +1 is OHKOs offensive variants after SR.
There's a common misconception that Waterfall is mandatory on MGyara when it really isn't. Crunch is such a good STAB that Gyara often ends up only using Waterfall when it needs a flinch to sweep, Crunch being more spammable for the most part. You can easily get creative with Gyara's coverage and run, idk, Crunch/Iron Head/EQ/DD if you're not weak to Hippowdon and benefit from both luring Altaria and severly weakening Keldeo. You can even drop EQ for Sub or Taunt, rolling with Bisharp coverage but with extra stallbreaking capabilities. It's more versatile than people give it credit for. So yeah, bump this thing up to A+
I don't agree with Ferro moving up simply becuase it's both one of the easier things to take advantage of and wear down. It provides really good Spikes support (kind of a mediocre SRer though) and blanket checks a bunch of stuff, but every time you send it out you risk it a) getting worn down and being unable to switch in afterwards and b) giving a free turn to really scary stuff like the Zards, Talonflame and Keldeo. Leech Seed is probably the main reason it's being suggested for a move up, it's admittedly a really nice way of supporting the team while insuring longevity and outlasting your opponents, but bulky Grass types like Celebi, Venusaur and most of all, opposing Ferrothorn can easily hinder that startegy, and while Magic Guard Clefable can't switch in, it can force mindgames with it and prevent it from getting Leed Seed health back while.
It's not even a good answer to Azu since one half is banded and carries Superpower to hit the often obvious switchin from Ferro, and the other runs Belly Drum and outright destroys Ferro with Knock Off without even needing to predict. In fact, half the things it wants to check tend to run Fire coverage for it, (like Garchomp, Latios and, more recently, Manaphy) or can just set up in its face and 2HKO it (like Bisharp, Excadrill and, once again, Garchomp). Ferro is just not as reliable as any of the defensive threats in A, both as a team supporter and as a wall.
Also can we move Hydreigon up to B+? This thing is really good at threatening balanced teams with its combination of fantastic coverage and solid defensive typing+1 immunity enabling it to come in on a bunch of common balance mons like Hippo Celebi Heatran Slowbro Rotom and some Manaphy variants. Also it's one of the better Landorus checks and acts as a specially offensive dragon which isn't Pursuit bait (in fact it checks Bisharp rather nicely) as well as an offensive Dark type which can actually threaten Keldeo without having to resort to lure moves like Aerial Ace and Thunder Punch. It's just a really nice and underappreciated mon and feels on par with the rest of B+ to me.
My love of Hydreigon is not a secret and I second the nomination for the reasons mentioned above: it's just so good and very underrated (and just gets even better with Aegi around but that's for another day).
Serperior is another mon I love. Aside from the raw power of Nasty Storm, its great speed tier and all the other great points already mentioned I found it to be a great team building tool. It really helps against stall and offense both and can sweep balance teams if its checks such as Talonflame and Heatran are removed. The odd Sticky Web team shows up sometimes and Serperior can turn a playstyle that is often unprepared for into a complete liability. It can run through Stall no problem or clean up a weakened team.
Also, and this is extremely minor, but there's a certain satisfaction from getting a boost from something that should have incidentally given you a stat drop. So sweet :)
I fully support Manaphy and Scizor to rise.
Scizor has a huge niche as a slow U-Turner and revenge killer with bullet punch, and can harm a good chunk of switchins such as scarf Keldeo with knock off, as it then can't revenge kill which is often Scarf Keld's job, and it then loses to MDiancie instead of revenging it.
Manaphy is just amazing at destroying balance and stall teams, having a good few viable sets with TG 3 attacks, RD TG, CM and I think another I've forgot. It has great coverage, has good bulk and great speed (for a wallbreaker) and is simply better than A, even if it is a bit lacking against offense.
Grass moves are indeed rather crappy offensively, I ageee. Serperior, however, makes it work with its combination of Speed, ability, and ridiculously powerful STAB Leaf Storm. I don't have access to a damage calculator right now. But if I recall correctly, a Miracle Seed boosted Leaf Storm actually does more damage (or about the same) to Bisharp than Hidden Power Fire does.
Also with Miracle Seed, Leaf Storm cleanly OHKO standard Rotom-W, Keldeo, etc. With a +2, it guarantees a OHKO on Gengar and Latios after Stealth Rock damage, if I recall correctly. With two boosted Leaf Storms, even Mega-Metagross and Mega-Altaria would wet their basements. In a way, it's like spamming Victini's V-create, without any negative drawback.
252 SpA Miracle Seed Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 118-139 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 124-146 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
A little incorrect there but the damage is still extremely close. 2HKOs easily thanks to the boost anyhow. That's another point going for it actually; Leaf Storm is so stupidly powerful you can even set-up on resists.
+2 252 SpA Miracle Seed Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 222-261 (85.7 - 100.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
You're almost right on these but yeah; point is Serperior gets very powerful very quick.
TBH, I have reached a point of preferring to use Blissey>Chansey on almost any team that I run a blob on, and I have developed a taste for the old-school ScarmBliss core as a result. This is simply due to Blissey not being a sitting duck due to its usable special attack stat, its ability to act as a specially defensive 'mon on/v.s. sandstorm more effectively due to Leftovers, its ability to feasibly run Thunder Wave without becoming a sitting duck and the fact that it has the stats to be slightly versatile on a team; hell: I love using a coverage move when I need to patch up a weakness on my team that Blissey can lure, e.g. luring out Gengar only to catch it on the switch with a nasty Shadow Ball, or Ferrothorn/Skarm only to make it taste my Flamethrower. This lack of complete passivity means that Blissey is IMO on par with Chansey, or at the most one sub-rank below it, and really if Chansey is in a B rank then this thing should be in a B rank too. In addition, I simply have too easy a time handling either blob to be convinced that Chansey should be ranked as high as even B= (cause just saying B is unclear) tbh. IMO, this thing should be B- at the highest simply due to it being insanely passive and struggling to cripple a large number of its switch-ins due to not being feasibly able to run Thunder Wave to catch sh*t like Terrakion, Gallade and post-mega Lopunny - or any physical attacker for that matter - on the switch as it needs to carry Toxic to have any sort of presence on a team. It also means that it literally can't touch Gengar, which is a big problem for any special wall, and this passiveness means that I have little cause to ever use this thing over, say, Clefable, Slowking or even the semi-passive Blissey (as stated at the start of this post) on a team. I am simply not convinced that Chansey is that good on most teams, so I am going to say Chansey to B- or lower and Blissey to B- or C+.
Just so you know, if Blissey does end up being C+ while Chansey stays somewhere in B I'd copletely understand, as the two of them fit onto different teams to one another, and it may just be that my preference towards Blissey comes from my playstyle :]
I have to disagree with manaphy rising. It is good but not A+ good for me, Tail glow is awesome but isn't as terrifying as it sounds because manaphy just comes up short in too many ways to really make use of it. It doesn't have to immediate power to wall break obviously so it needs to set up but doesn't have the bulk to do so with ease and it doesn't possess the speed to pull off a sweep, which you can't patch with a scarf because you would miss out on tail glow. It is a pokemon that is tantalizingly close to greatness but just wishes it had more than base 100 stats. It is great vs stall and balance but offense doesn't mind it much. DarkNostalgia mentioned that it doesn't have a true counter (although sash breloom is a nightmare) as it has a few different sets but I don't feel like it needs a dedicated counter. Pure water typing isn't the hardest to hit and 100 base speed isn't particularly difficult to outrun. Plenty of pokemon can outspeed and hit for at least neutral damage. Calm mind can be a problem for special attackers but in this meta we aren't exactly short of powerful physical attackers who can outspeed and drop a lot of damage. Rain dance rest can be scary but is a bit matchup based because it can be a problem if your opponent has zard y, t tar or hippo. When I face this thing in a battle, especially the tail glow set i feel like at worst I have to sac something that does a bit of damage while manaphy sets up and then I switch in something faster the next turn that either revenge kills it or forces it out without enough hp to be able to set up when it comes back in, making it pretty nonthreatening. Most times it doesn't even get a chance to set up and it just an average pokemon with average stats. It deserves A because of what it can do to stall but I'm not sold on A+.
Don't wanna sound like a Serperior fan girl, but in my humble opinion, it's much more threatening than Manaphy. Yet the latter is an A ranked Pokemon and the regal snake is only B+.
Agreeing with Immortal that Manaphy is not a threat until it gets off a Tail Glow. Even after doing so, it'll only manage to destroy a slower balanced team. Against an offensive team, it's easily revenge killed and oftentimes would not be able to set up due to it's medicore Speed. Against stall, it's shut down by the likes of Chansey and Unaware Clefable.
Manaphy is slower than most common threats--most notably Gengar, Mega-Metagross, Latios, Latias, Keldeo, Diancie-Mega, Garchomp, etc. Serperior is faster than all of said Pokemon bar the Choicescarf variants. Even without a boost, none of those Pokemom would enjoy coming in to take a Leaf Storm, whether they resist it or not, as a second Leaf Storm (now boosted) would easily finish them off, and further boosting Serperior's Special Attack. This makes Serperior an immediate threat as soon as it enters a battle.
Unaware Clefable and Chansey can't check Serperior if it carries Taunt, which isn't a gimmick move. Serperior needs Leaf Storm, Hidden Power something, and Giga Drain for some recovery. The fourth move may be any of it's amazing utility move--Glare, Taunt, or Knock Off--depending on your team. I find Dragon Pulse a useless move since Leaf Storm does almost as much damage to Latios and Latias; it's only useful against Dragalge.
Unaware Clefable and Chansey can't check Serperior if it carries Taunt, which isn't a gimmick move. Serperior needs Leaf Storm, Hidden Power something, and Giga Drain for some recovery. The fourth move may be any of it's amazing utility move--Glare, Taunt, or Knock Off--depending on your team. I find Dragon Pulse a useless move since Leaf Storm does almost as much damage to Latios and Latias; it's only useful against Dragalge.
And both zards, dragonite, if you can manage it TFlame, among other things.
It can be argued that's dependent on what HP it's carrying, but that goes both ways. It really wants that coverage. And sadly dual grass and a base 60 special attack isn't quite enough.
Aside from that however, I do agree it should move up.
I wouldn't really say that unaware clefable shuts down manaphy. Manaphy actually has a good chance to 2HKO unaware clefable under rain after SR, and often times clefable will have taken some prior damage checking something else. It has to rely on wish and protect to beat manapy because of moonlight's limited PP and this can be further hampered if rain is up as moonlight will only recover 25%. TG + RD Manaphy also beats chansey as well because chansey can't really do anything back to it if manaphy is carrying rest, while +6 scald under rain 2HKOes and again that's not factoring in any prior damage (which is very possible in a realistic scenario considering how many things chansey is supposed to check on stall teams) or scald burns.
Manaphy can often muscle past special walls such as chansey and unaware clefable just with scald burns and rain dance, and tbh stall has a super hard time adapting to it.
Yes, you're right. I was referring to the Tail Glow, three attacks Manaphy. Serperior is a superior offensive force, but when you take Manaphy's versatility into account, it does deserve its A rank.
And both zards, dragonite, if you can manage it TFlame, among other things.
It can be argued that's dependent on what HP it's carrying, but that goes both ways. It really wants that coverage. And sadly dual grass and a base 60 special attack isn't quite enough.
Aside from that however, I do agree it should move up.
I disagree with the rise of serperior. Yes its speed tier and Nasty Storm are great on paper, but the reality is that even with the boosts it can't pick up many kills. As posted above, it even fails to KO standard Latios after a boost. It is also walled to hell and back by Heatran and Mega Venusaur, and requires substantial team support to get past its checks and counters. Serp is fine where it is right now
Just letting you guys know updates may or may not come sooner than usual. Anything team agrees on at that point instead of waiting for weeks to do a big update will be updated so small posts of rank changes with maybe one or a couple of changes might happen more frequently. It's so that everything stays up to date for using this as a resource and having it ready for users. Anyways that's all.
Also I agree with a Serp rise but A is overrating the hell out of it tremendously, even taking into account Coba + HP rock variant.
I disagree with the rise of serperior. Yes its speed tier and Nasty Storm are great on paper, but the reality is that even with the boosts it can't pick up many kills. As posted above, it even fails to KO standard Latios after a boost. It is also walled to hell and back by Heatran and Mega Venusaur, and requires substantial team support to get past its checks and counters. Serp is fine where it is right now
I recommend using a Life Orb over Miracle Seed for this reason. It insures the 1HKO on Mega Scizor with HP Fire as well after rocks.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 400-473 (116.6 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 309-364 (103.3 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 359-426 (101.9 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I agree these would not be possible without LO but LO really makes a difference.
Edit: I also think Serp is a cleaner rather than a sweeper. It can sweep but it's not its main focus
Bonus Calc: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 348-411 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 268-316 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mmmmm sweet, sweet Life Orb...
Serperior should not coming in with the expectation of blowing through an entire team in one go. Leaf Storm gets more powerful the more you use it, but remember this guy?
Something you might want to clear out first. And you'll need to be at +2 before Dragon Pulse puts enough of a dent into it to be trouble, while the goo dragon threatens a OHKO after rocks with Fire Blast.
Not to mention it has other checks too, and Goodra is likely naturally checked by teammates, but if you're using Serperior as your wincon, just be aware that Goodra exists and can absorb a Leaf Storm entirely, preventing that boost.
Well tbh goodra isn't even that relevant and it lacks reliable recovery so it gets worn down pretty fast. I mean it's not like metagame defining at all and serperior being countered by it doesn't really mean much because it's not like you'll be seeing a goodra on every team.
Tornadus-T should go up to A+. It's the premier pivot in OU right now, with its solid offenses on both ends and access to Regenerator to offset Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock damage. It can run two sets effectively, that is, the Life Orb and the Assault Vest set. Assault Vest is a great check to many prominent special attackers in the tier, such as Gengar, Keldeo, Mega Altaria etc., while Life Orb is a terror for balance because of its pivoting abilities, coupled with Knock Off. Speaking of Knock Off, it has great utility moves, such as Taunt and Knock Off, and its movepool is really wide as well, consisting of gems such as Hurricane, Knock Off, Heat Wave, U-turn, Superpower etc.
The only flaw I can really find is Tornadus-T's main STAB has low accuracy, but a lot of the time you'll be clicking Knock Off/U-turn anyway. Tornadus isn't really a sweeper per se, so I find that the shaky accuracy doesn't matter.
