Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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Lucario for B/B+
Now you may be wondering "Why is Lucario even being mentioned, OU already has some great Fighting types" well, Lucario is Pokemon that can help many weaknesses, acting as a glue for other teams to use. For one, Lucario has some great offensive stats, 110 base attack and 115 base special attack, and access to both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, A nice physical move pool, but a lacking special movepool, but what it has in its special move pool is good, having access to Dragon Pulse, Aura Sphere, and Flash Cannon, it can hurt alot of pokemon with a nasty plot boost (see calcs below) and with swords dance and a very good Physical movepool, it can pack a punch for any team, its only problems are Skarmory, Bulky Ground, Psychic, Fairy types and Gyarados (not mega). those threats are gone if you have a boost (well not gyarados)

Calcs (physical luke):
Clefable
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 439-523 (111.4 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 367-432 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 881-1037 (223.6 - 263.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive Landorus
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 58-69 (15.1 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 109-129 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 65-77 (17 - 20.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 242-286 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 130-153 (34 - 40%) -- 38.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 144-172 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Defensive Mew
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 91-108 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 82-97 (20.2 - 24%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 305-360 (75.4 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
These pokemon, although not so popular (besides clefable) are some of the only checks or counters to Lucario, although a lot of the Pokemon have some form of a move to defeat Lucario, but it can hurt some Pokemon, without worrying about these 3 (but there are probably more)

Edit: forgot about 1 thing

Lucario can also act as a Ice Type killer, resisting all ice type moves, and hurting both Weavile and Mamoswine with Close Combat and Iron Tail (possibly bullet punch)
 
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Martin

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I personally support Swellow going to D just on the basis that it is the only fully offensive bird that can act as a status absorber. Aside from that, the niches it has over Staraptor are very noticable - namely a speed tier that doesn't give the bird's user the middle finger and a lack of a full reliance on moves which deal recoil. I'm not going to say much more now because I feel most of what can be said about Swellow has already been said.

edit:
blah blah blah... its only problems are Skarmory, Bulky Ground, Psychic, Fairy types and Gyarados (not mega)... blah blah blah...
Paraphrasing Showdown! real quick:
Lucario does get Thunder Punch from:
Tutor in Pokemon Emerald
Tutor in Pokemon Platinum, Heart Gold or Soul Silver
Tutor in Pokemon Black 2 or White 2
Tutor in Pokemon Omega Ruby or Alpha Sapphire
Also the only Fairy-type which isn't bopped by Iron Tail is PhysDef Azumarill.
 
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I personally support Swellow going to D just on the basis that it is the only fully offensive bird that can act as a status absorber. Aside from that, the niches it has over Staraptor are very noticable - namely a speed tier that doesn't give the bird's user the middle finger and a lack of a full reliance on moves which deal recoil. I'm not going to say much more now because I feel most of what can be said about Swellow has already been said.

edit:

Paraphrasing Showdown! real quick:

Also the only Fairy-type which isn't bopped by Iron Tail is PhysDef Azumarill.
I mean that's nice and all, but where is Lucario going to fit Thunderpunch? It's already stressed for spaces as is with SD, E-Speed, CC, Iron Tail, Ice Punch... Thunderpunch just seems an extremely niche move (that is outdamaged by CC actually when used against skarm) to hit a very few select targets you probably don't ever want to be facing anyway and takes up a very valuable moveslot.
 

Martin

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I mean that's nice and all, but where is Lucario going to fit Thunderpunch? It's already stressed for spaces as is with SD, E-Speed, CC, Iron Tail, Ice Punch... Thunderpunch just seems an extremely niche move (that is outdamaged by CC actually when used against skarm) to hit a very few select targets you probably don't ever want to be facing anyway and takes up a very valuable moveslot.
I was just saying it got it. I wouldn't say to use it under any circumstances, but I just said because it gets it ;P
 
Mega Banette to C

Banette is an amzingly versatile mon and people are definitely sleeping on its viability. Priority Destiny Bond is quite nice as many people have said already, but I'm going to focus on the other features of Mega Banette that have been a little less stressed in this thread. Prankster allows him to spread burns to physical sweepers as well as wearing down special attackers. This burn threat forces the opponent to pivot in between mons to avoid getting their most important mons burnt. Priority taunt lets Mega Banette function as a great anti-lead in conjunction with Will-O-Wisp as most Stealth Rock users are physically based attackers. Priority Taunt as well as its ghost typing allows it to function as a boon for hazard stacking offense as it can prevent both defog and rapid spin with little to no effort. Banette isn't a sitting duck vs the premier hazard clearer in the tier, as it has a base 165 attack and a great STAB typing in ghost that matches up great vs the tier's best hazard removers. Even uninvested, Mega Banette can OHKO or 2HKO basically all of the tier's premier hazard removers.
0 Atk Mega Banette Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 282-332 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mega Banette Shadow Claw vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 254-302 (79.6 - 94.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

will add more later
 

Hogg

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I agree that MBanette has untapped potential, but I don't see it as a viable anti-lead. As it needs to mega evolve before Prankster takes effect, it will be unable to prevent Rocks from going down on its first turn unless up against a very slow rock setter.
 
I agree that MBanette has untapped potential, but I don't see it as a viable anti-lead. As it needs to mega evolve before Prankster takes effect, it will be unable to prevent Rocks from going down on its first turn unless up against a very slow rock setter.
Many mons like Tankchomp and Ferrothorn that set rocks are slower than Banette naturally, and if you EV to outspeed them, you can have Banette Function as a decent anti-lead

E: To avoid double post

Lucario for B/B+
Now you may be wondering "Why is Lucario even being mentioned, OU already has some great Fighting types" well, Lucario is Pokemon that can help many weaknesses, acting as a glue for other teams to use. For one, Lucario has some great offensive stats, 110 base attack and 115 base special attack, and access to both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, A nice physical move pool, but a lacking special movepool, but what it has in its special move pool is good, having access to Dragon Pulse, Aura Sphere, and Flash Cannon, it can hurt alot of pokemon with a nasty plot boost (see calcs below) and with swords dance and a very good Physical movepool, it can pack a punch for any team, its only problems are Skarmory, Bulky Ground, Psychic, Fairy types and Gyarados (not mega). those threats are gone if you have a boost (well not gyarados)
As much as it hurts me to say this, although Lucario has some nice power at +2 and seems like a really nice wallbreaker with a lot of power, it can't break through many things and anything that resists or is immune to its priority move and can get outsped and killed by them, so it should not rise up past B-rank. It certainly is a good late game cleaner in OU and is quite a good sweeper, but it is not as good as you made it look. Also, I don't understand why you said that fairy types are a problem as Lucario's Iron Tail is super effective vs those mons.
 
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4MSS is team dependent and the team that Lucario is on should be able to handle most of the checks and if it can't handle like Skarmory it could run Thunderpunch or it could run Ice Punch for Landorus BP for Diancie etc etc etc.
 

MrAldo

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Gotta love the lower rank discussion and ranking unranked mons, easily my favorite part on this thread.

Lot of unranked mons have been nominated but I can get behind on the likes of Krookodile, swellow, jellicent and maybe arcanine.

Krookodile due to its unique typing, solid typing good ability in intimidate, awkward speed tier but functional funnily enough and one of the few things with the combination of stealth rock + pursuit that isnt 4x weak and a really solid dual STAB combination for this metagame. It has its problems but I feel it deserves to be ranked. C- right now though.

Swellow is pretty cool. Fantastic speed tier, ability to get past status when it is already poisoned or burned so that it can deal with the likes of thundurus with its prankster t-wave which is pretty nifty for a flying type, plus facade+status really hurts many of the electric types. SR weakness, general frailty so it wont take priority very well and not being so notably strong and having to run protect to activate the status orb really hurts it though but it has enough merits to get on D rank.

Jellicent is another cool addition cause it acts like the most solid spinblocker the tier has, this is huge for an archetype that is in the raise like the balance hazard stacking concept cause life orb starmie cant get past this guy unless it has thunderbolt, not sure if swords dance excadrill with rapid spin is a thing but it would need swords dance to get past it and the only that can get past it with much problem is mega blastoise which is pretty uncommon due to the opportunity cost it takes on using it. Access to reliable recovery, cool utility options like taunt and will-o-wisp. Hex is also cool and we all love scald, and it hard walls keldeo! Should be D at least, very legitimate niche tbh.

Arcanine, well, most of the times Id rather run something like defensive infernape cause of a SR neutrality which can be pretty important for longevity, secondary typing that let it handle weavile and bisharp really reliably and a recovery move with more PP. Arcanine has its perks, intimidate for one, being able to handle the likes of meta metagross and mega lopunny really well and of course the reliable recovery and the so coveted extreme speed. Probably deserves D but not too sold about it yet, would love to see more opinions on this.

Replays? Wish I had those :( Someone back me up on those pls

Lucario shouldnt rise at all, in fact it is kind of struggling to stay in B- cause of its legitimate 4mss problem. A pokemon doesnt have 4mss when it can handle most of the metagame with a pretty standard movepool, this isnt the case for lucario when it would love to have ice punch so landorus-T, garchomp, gliscor or *insert bulky ground type here* wont give it the middle finger. It want bullet punch to deal with mega diancie which otherwise checks it pretty well, iron tail to get past clefable consistently and stuff, stuff. Why are we even mentioning thunderpunch when it has one target (STAB close combat hits skarmory harder for your knowledge) and that target is gyarados, I wouldnt bother running thunderpunch just to hit gyarados cause thats simply ridiculous, you hit azumarill for the same damage if you decide to run iron tail anyways.

Lucario has a good role as a cleaner. If it finds a setup opportunity it is generally gg on a weakened team and acts a soft check (really soft) for bisharp in offensive teams, nothing really extraordinary to get out of B- but good enough to stay in it imo.

See ya later.
 
4MSS is really subjective when it comes to an offensive Pokemon, for a Pokemon's coverage is mostly dependent on what its team is able to hit and what it needs it to hit. While Lucario cannot realistically cover every Pokemon in one moveslot, many of the targets of its extensive coverage options are not difficult Pokemon to prepare for, so Lucario can easily afford to run Iron Tail and let a teammate handle Slowbro and Mega Diancie, Crunch and let a teammate deal with Fairies, Ice Punch and let a teammate deal with Fairies and Slowbro...... even Pokemon that have distinct 4mss, such as Ferrothorn, are usually capable of adapting to their 4mss issues through how their team is structured, so can everybody please do a favor and not look at Lucario from a 4mss perspective, but from a speed control perspective, which is what Lucario is meant to be looked at from?
 
Arcanine, well, most of the times Id rather run something like defensive infernape cause of a SR neutrality which can be pretty important for longevity, secondary typing that let it handle weavile and bisharp really reliably and a recovery move with more PP. Arcanine has its perks, intimidate for one, being able to handle the likes of meta metagross and mega lopunny really well and of course the reliable recovery and the so coveted extreme speed. Probably deserves D but not too sold about it yet, would love to see more opinions on this.

Replays? Wish I had those :( Someone back me up on those pls
well,here are some replays for my nomination to Arcanine to at least D rank:

I dont give a fuck about your tyranitar and bulky megazard X:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237407373
Is mega metagross that powerful ? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237433500
another bulky zard x: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237456521

im playing by hours and theres no loppuny in the ladder to show some replay against her -_-
 

Srn

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Gotta love the lower rank discussion and ranking unranked mons, easily my favorite part on this thread.

Lot of unranked mons have been nominated but I can get behind on the likes of Krookodile, swellow, jellicent and maybe arcanine.

Krookodile due to its unique typing, solid typing good ability in intimidate, awkward speed tier but functional funnily enough and one of the few things with the combination of stealth rock + pursuit that isnt 4x weak and a really solid dual STAB combination for this metagame. It has its problems but I feel it deserves to be ranked. C- right now though.

Swellow is pretty cool. Fantastic speed tier, ability to get past status when it is already poisoned or burned so that it can deal with the likes of thundurus with its prankster t-wave which is pretty nifty for a flying type, plus facade+status really hurts many of the electric types. SR weakness, general frailty so it wont take priority very well and not being so notably strong and having to run protect to activate the status orb really hurts it though but it has enough merits to get on D rank.

Jellicent is another cool addition cause it acts like the most solid spinblocker the tier has, this is huge for an archetype that is in the raise like the balance hazard stacking concept cause life orb starmie cant get past this guy unless it has thunderbolt, not sure if swords dance excadrill with rapid spin is a thing but it would need swords dance to get past it and the only that can get past it with much problem is mega blastoise which is pretty uncommon due to the opportunity cost it takes on using it. Access to reliable recovery, cool utility options like taunt and will-o-wisp. Hex is also cool and we all love scald, and it hard walls keldeo! Should be D at least, very legitimate niche tbh.

Arcanine, well, most of the times Id rather run something like defensive infernape cause of a SR neutrality which can be pretty important for longevity, secondary typing that let it handle weavile and bisharp really reliably and a recovery move with more PP. Arcanine has its perks, intimidate for one, being able to handle the likes of meta metagross and mega lopunny really well and of course the reliable recovery and the so coveted extreme speed. Probably deserves D but not too sold about it yet, would love to see more opinions on this.

Replays? Wish I had those :( Someone back me up on those pls

Lucario shouldnt rise at all, in fact it is kind of struggling to stay in B- cause of its legitimate 4mss problem. A pokemon doesnt have 4mss when it can handle most of the metagame with a pretty standard movepool, this isnt the case for lucario when it would love to have ice punch so landorus-T, garchomp, gliscor or *insert bulky ground type here* wont give it the middle finger. It want bullet punch to deal with mega diancie which otherwise checks it pretty well, iron tail to get past clefable consistently and stuff, stuff. Why are we even mentioning thunderpunch when it has one target (STAB close combat hits skarmory harder for your knowledge) and that target is gyarados, I wouldnt bother running thunderpunch just to hit gyarados cause thats simply ridiculous, you hit azumarill for the same damage if you decide to run iron tail anyways.

Lucario has a good role as a cleaner. If it finds a setup opportunity it is generally gg on a weakened team and acts a soft check (really soft) for bisharp in offensive teams, nothing really extraordinary to get out of B- but good enough to stay in it imo.

See ya later.
Jee been a while since i posted in this thread.

But anyways. you mentioned jellicent was a spinblocker?
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 205-242 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, tbolt is uncommon on starmie, but starmie is uncommon in general to start with anyways :P Basically, you're only spinblocking defensive starmie.
I think that jellicent is outclassed by gourgeist-super in this case because our little pumpkin friend not only beats starmie with its stabs (and starmie can't escape behind reflect type either), but also actually COUNTERS excadrill!
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
From there, i can leech seed, will-o, Phantom force, all kinds of shit. Not to mention Gourgiest-super has uses outside of spinblocking too, its one of the few COUNTERS to mega metagross (as long as it carries phantom force to break sub).
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 148-176 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It has semi-reliable recovery in synthesis, and with leech seed and leftovers and solid 85/122/75 bulk its not too easy to wear down. And actually beats exca 1v1, where as jellicent is simply 2hko'd and fails to do its job.

I don't know how this turned into a gourgeist-super nomination but lets roll with it.
Jellicent-->Unlisted
Gourgeist-Super-->C+/B-
 

MZ

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Sorry I don't have time for more than a two liner but I thought jellicent's niche was being a bulky water that wasn't clefable fodder because it can taunt it with rubbing a little speed, as well as slowbro or ferrothorn or whatever. Isn't that what gets it to D rank potentially?
 
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Jee been a while since i posted in this thread.

But anyways. you mentioned jellicent was a spinblocker?
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 205-242 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, tbolt is uncommon on starmie, but starmie is uncommon in general to start with anyways :P Basically, you're only spinblocking defensive starmie.
I think that jellicent is outclassed by gourgeist-super in this case because our little pumpkin friend not only beats starmie with its stabs (and starmie can't escape behind reflect type either), but also actually COUNTERS excadrill!
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
From there, i can leech seed, will-o, Phantom force, all kinds of shit. Not to mention Gourgiest-super has uses outside of spinblocking too, its one of the few COUNTERS to mega metagross (as long as it carries phantom force to break sub).
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 148-176 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It has semi-reliable recovery in synthesis, and with leech seed and leftovers and solid 85/122/75 bulk its not too easy to wear down. And actually beats exca 1v1, where as jellicent is simply 2hko'd and fails to do its job.

I don't know how this turned into a gourgeist-super nomination but lets roll with it.
Jellicent-->Unlisted
Gourgeist-Super-->C+/B-
You're really cherry picking those calcs on Jellicent. Firstly, Starmie is around 10% on usage iirc, which is far from uncommon. Thunderbolt, however, is actually uncommon on Starmie and that's the only way it beats Jellicent. A more common move would like this:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 268-317 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not commenting anymore on Gourgiest Super considering ive never used it, but as for Excadrill I agree that Jellicent has a tougher time against it, however not all Excadrill are Adamant Life Orb. Take this calc for example:
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 199-234 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's about a 50/50 and any Excadrill set lacking a Life Orb (Scarf, Balloon) won't be able to break through Jellicent. Also consider that even if Excadrill predicts Jellicent switching in correctly (which it has to), Jellicent could then stomach one Earthquake and switch out to something faster than Excadrill like Landorus-T or Talonflame and still effectively prevent the spin. Or the Jellicent user could predict the Excadrill switch in immediately, switch into Jellicent as well, and beat it 1v1. Obviousy prediction works both ways but it"s not as simple as "Excadrill always prevents Jellicent from getting its job done" like your post implied. I would argue that even if Jellicent switched in and got 2hkoed it would still do its job, preventing the spin. Of course this is true of all ghost types but I thought I'd like to point that out. Besides spinblocking, Jellicent also shuts down Keldeo, being immune to both STABs, can spread status, has reliable recovery, and has many other perks of being a bulky water which is why I think it deserves D.
 
Lucario for B/B+
Now you may be wondering "Why is Lucario even being mentioned, OU already has some great Fighting types" well, Lucario is Pokemon that can help many weaknesses, acting as a glue for other teams to use. For one, Lucario has some great offensive stats, 110 base attack and 115 base special attack, and access to both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, A nice physical move pool, but a lacking special movepool, but what it has in its special move pool is good, having access to Dragon Pulse, Aura Sphere, and Flash Cannon, it can hurt alot of pokemon with a nasty plot boost (see calcs below) and with swords dance and a very good Physical movepool, it can pack a punch for any team, its only problems are Skarmory, Bulky Ground, Psychic, Fairy types and Gyarados (not mega). those threats are gone if you have a boost (well not gyarados)

Calcs (physical luke):
Clefable
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 439-523 (111.4 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 367-432 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 881-1037 (223.6 - 263.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive Landorus
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 58-69 (15.1 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 109-129 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 65-77 (17 - 20.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 242-286 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 130-153 (34 - 40%) -- 38.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 144-172 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Defensive Mew
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 91-108 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 82-97 (20.2 - 24%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 305-360 (75.4 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
These pokemon, although not so popular (besides clefable) are some of the only checks or counters to Lucario, although a lot of the Pokemon have some form of a move to defeat Lucario, but it can hurt some Pokemon, without worrying about these 3 (but there are probably more)

Edit: forgot about 1 thing

Lucario can also act as a Ice Type killer, resisting all ice type moves, and hurting both Weavile and Mamoswine with Close Combat and Iron Tail (possibly bullet punch)
I'm just wondering what makes Lucario better than Infernape, another Fighting type in the same rank that also has Swords Dance and Nasty Plot and an arguably better movepool. Lucario does have a distinct niche (and a pretty good one at that) over Infernape in that it's an SD cleaner but that's why it's in B- while Infernape also has clear advantages over Lucario. Infernape has a much better speed tier, better offensive typing (I'd say Lucario has a better defensive typing), and overall just more versatility being able to run all out physical/special, mixed, or even defensive. I just don't know what to say but my point is that Infernape and Lucario are on par with each other and that Luc should stay in B-.

Also you say it does a lot of damage with a Nasty Plot boost up but you calc with a physical set????
 

MrAldo

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Well yeah, having taunt on jellicent is a necessity on this cause without it even sub cm keldeo may as well set up on it. Taunt + Will-o-wisp + Hex is a cool combination to have when you consider the concept of a team jellicent can fit as a spinblocker.

Also I dont get one thing. I certainly pointed out how starmie can stop jellicent from spinblocking it by running thunderbolt on an offensive spinner set and something about to gourgeist-super, but then how those gourgeist-super "beat" starmie with its stabs when it actually has to watch out for ice beam which is arguably far more common than thunderbolt??

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 268-317 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not even taking into account analytic. I dont disagree with being questioned in a specific situation but may as well point out gourgeist-super wont stop offensive starmie, the set in question. In fact you just went with a counterargument with an offensive starmie set, which is absolutely valid, but then forgot about that same set and proceed to use the bulky spinner set for your advantage I dont get it?

Also, jellicent in a 1vs1 situation can fare really well against jellicent. Excadrill risks a burn if you come up in an attempted spin and the avoid the 2hko from a burned adamant excadrill earthquake. Risky but not an impossible scenario. Reason I mentioned swords dance as the way of stopping jellicent from doing while it has to do.

Not disagreeing with gourgeist-super which is arguably nice dealing with excadrill but gourgeist-super doesnt outclass jellicent at all. I dont see gourgeist-super running taunt which can be really useful for preventing defog from the likes of latios, which is always useful to keep your hazards up.

One of the problem I also have with gourgeist-super is that, while is a pretty neat spinblocker, its typing conflict with important elements on spikestacking which naturally runs a steel type for spikes adding a nasty fire weakness which isnt always easy to cover, and talonflame can generally become annoying; reason, among many others why I dont believe it is fare to compare them.
 

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Well yeah, having taunt on jellicent is a necessity on this cause without it even sub cm keldeo may as well set up on it. Taunt + Will-o-wisp + Hex is a cool combination to have when you consider the concept of a team jellicent can fit as a spinblocker.

Also I dont get one thing. I certainly pointed out how starmie can stop jellicent from spinblocking it by running thunderbolt on an offensive spinner set and something about to gourgeist-super, but then how those gourgeist-super "beat" starmie with its stabs when it actually has to watch out for ice beam which is arguably far more common than thunderbolt??

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 268-317 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not even taking into account analytic. I dont disagree with being questioned in a specific situation but may as well point out gourgeist-super wont stop offensive starmie, the set in question. In fact you just went with a counterargument with an offensive starmie set, which is absolutely valid, but then forgot about that same set and proceed to use the bulky spinner set for your advantage I dont get it?

Also, jellicent in a 1vs1 situation can fare really well against jellicent. Excadrill risks a burn if you come up in an attempted spin and the avoid the 2hko from a burned adamant excadrill earthquake. Risky but not an impossible scenario. Reason I mentioned swords dance as the way of stopping jellicent from doing while it has to do.

Not disagreeing with gourgeist-super which is arguably nice dealing with excadrill but gourgeist-super doesnt outclass jellicent at all. I dont see gourgeist-super running taunt which can be really useful for preventing defog from the likes of latios, which is always useful to keep your hazards up.

One of the problem I also have with gourgeist-super is that, while is a pretty neat spinblocker, its typing conflict with important elements on spikestacking which naturally runs a steel type for spikes adding a nasty fire weakness which isnt always easy to cover, and talonflame can generally become annoying; reason, among many others why I dont believe it is fare to compare them.
Ok yeah, gourgiest-Super loses to offensive starmie, but i'd much rather be a reliable spin blocker to the most common spinners in the tier, namely defensive starmie and excadrill. Not only is offensive starmie rare, it can get past jellicent with tbolt too, so idk why you're holding that against gourgeist. (Defensive starmie and offensive starmie are different sets which I was referring to, if that was what confused you). No matter how you try to hide it, jellicent can't deal with excadrill, and gourgeist can, and for that simple reason you should be picking gourgiest over jellicent as a spinblocker 100% of the time.

You mention that its typing synergizes badly with spikes users, but you also don't mention that it matches up perfectly with toxic spikes users (dragalage basically). Not only does gourgeist cover the ground weakness and spin block, dragalge also covers char-y and gengar for the pumpkin. Stall's very own spinner, starmie, has alright synergy with gourgeist too, neutering heatran for it. Jellicent is stacking Ghost+dark+electric+grass weaknesses with starmie.
 
Ok yeah, gourgiest-Super loses to offensive starmie, but i'd much rather be a reliable spin blocker to the most common spinners in the tier, namely defensive starmie and excadrill. Not only is offensive starmie rare, it can get past jellicent with tbolt too, so idk why you're holding that against gourgeist. (Defensive starmie and offensive starmie are different sets which I was referring to, if that was what confused you). No matter how you try to hide it, jellicent can't deal with excadrill, and gourgeist can, and for that simple reason you should be picking gourgiest over jellicent as a spinblocker 100% of the time.

You mention that its typing synergizes badly with spikes users, but you also don't mention that it matches up perfectly with toxic spikes users (dragalage basically). Not only does gourgeist cover the ground weakness and spin block, dragalge also covers char-y and gengar for the pumpkin. Stall's very own spinner, starmie, has alright synergy with gourgeist too, neutering heatran for it. Jellicent is stacking Ghost+dark+electric+grass weaknesses with starmie.
Tbolt starmie doesn't even get past all Jelly builds.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Jellicent: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
With minimal investment it can still reliably switch in on Starmie and only the sand rush variant of Excadrill reliably KOs Jelli running this amount of investment anyway.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jellicent: 184-217 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Obviously Jellic isn't amazing, but it can still spinblock fairly reliably.
 
I don't think that these are ridiculous, but what's your reasoning on these? rotom heat is pretty sweet, btw
Skarmory is good in this meta with spikes, two solid defensive sets, phasing utility to emphasize on spikes damage, recovery and is a buffer for dangerous stuff or at least momentarily for stuff like M-Metagross.

Rotom-H is better than all of D in practice.

Slowking ^ more or less that just different rank and AV can be a pain for certain offensive cores. Good in Lando meta.
 
Anyways thought I would post on some stuff I agree with or general things I'd like answered or addressed.

So I agree with M-Banette rising from ben and I do agree to C Rank. It is on par if not exceeds M-Absol and M-Ampharos in practical scenarios and is better than most people give it credit for. Idk what else to say ben covered like every single thing possible in his nom a couple pages back so not gonna bother unless asked.

I'm kind of neutral on Meloetta but that's mostly cause I don't use it, I see it used against me though. It's solid though played a couple of guys like Storm with his SubCM set but the set ben posted I think has the most effectiveness right now.

I'd like some replays of Doublade in action, ones that aren't ass either. It's on the verge of being unranked so let us know why it should be D with concrete evidence if you're interested thanks.

I did this in convo I had with team and thought it would be a cool idea to give a run down like this. Sort of just glancing at it and seeing what should move up or down.
Altaria (Mega) - Fire Blast M-Altaria is just a new form of disease destroying the last legitimate checks it had.
Clefable - Good in S, I hate this thing to
Landorus - Lol
Metagross (Mega)- Still dumb so fine
Azumarill - Always underrated, fine
Bisharp - This probably will never drop down in ORAS lol. SD set + hazards can turn would be checks into lost causes.
Charizard (Mega-X) - I think this thing is a monster but I'm holding my reservations about S until it becomes cut and dry to me.
Diancie (Mega) - I think M-Diancie is a bit overhyped but can't ignore the different variations it has in screwing over would be answers to it.
Garchomp - One of the most consistent glue mons in the tier, not S at all though.
Gengar - Sigh why are all the legitimate switch ins to it such terrible mons. Fine
Gyarados (Mega) - Peoples preparation for this thing is almost impossible outside of using fat fightings and Keldeo hoping that it wasn't weakened about to take +1 EQ. It's good in A+
Heatran - Under appreciated, definite A+
Keldeo - Definite A+
Landorus-T - This thing looks more A everytime I see it, until I see SD sets which rips a balance a new one.
Lopunny (Mega) - Read Bisharp
Latios - People really underestimate what this is actually capable of everytime the notion that it's on par with Latias in viability comes up. Lots of strength backed up by a coverage move of choice for teams, can make a devastating wall-breaker with CM that even things like Heatran can keel over to. It's the definition of a good offense being your best defense.
Manaphy - Anything that can basically be used by a 4 year old is pretty much A+ in my eyes.
Sableye (Mega) - I'm just sitting here, double switching onto your support moves making you hate me and forcing out your fairies for easy prediction games. Fine in A+.
Scizor (Mega) - One of the best steel types in the tier right now. Definitely fine in A+
Talonflame - This will more than likely never be a debate.
Thundurus - NP / 3 attacks is retarded to go up against.
Tornadus-T - Kind of a given how useful this is at this point.
Alakazam (Mega) - Some people have been arguing for a raise but I think that's a bit pushing it to me personally. I guess there's some merit depend on how you look at it but I prefer things to drop rather than rise.
Charizard (Mega-Y) - Poops on balance. Fine in A.
Excadrill - It'll more than likely stay in A for awhile unless sand offense magically becomes bad, so never.
Ferrothorn - Fine in A. Solid glue mon.
Gardevoir (Mega) - Defensive set rocks, M-Gard in its known glory is still great as well.
Gliscor - It's good here.
Hippowdon - Used this on like a million teams, definite A
Latias - Fine in A, Healing Wish is its saving grace and clutch.
Latias (Mega) - Fine in A during Landorus meta. Fat win cons that rampage tour scene with Stored power.
Manectric (Mega) - After Mega Lopunny this is more than likely the mon annoying offense in terms of megas. Fine in A.
Rotom-W - This honestly can drop in my eyes *gasp*. I can go in depth if need be.
Slowbro - Fine in A, CM Bro is sexy.
Skarmory - Just moved here kind of a given.
Starmie - I don't use this much but its one of the few non shitty spinners in the tier left so fine here.
Tyranitar - TTar is ttar, classics never die fine in A.
Venusaur (Mega) - Henry wanted a raise, I'm assuming cause of Mega Altaria. Not seeing it but I get the point and there's slight justification for it.
Weavile - Fine in A, let the bandwagon and hype die down before throwing this any higher.
Aerodactyl (Mega) - Under appreciated needs only fat waters and grounds out and you're good to go.
Celebi - Sort of addressed this but I think it's riding on a whole lot of former glory that it shouldn't be riding on anymore. Should drop.
Gyarados - Fine in A-
Jirachi - I don't use this too much but from what I've played against looks like a solid A-
Klefki - Good in A-. Hazards, weavile switch in on offense, Heal Block, Fairy Lock, lots of good utility options for balance and offense to use.
Kyurem-B - Fine in A-. It's overplayed for being in A or higher a shitload of times.
Mew - Good in A-. Classics never die again.
Pinsir (Mega) - This really needs more usage tbh. It's still a monster. Good in A-.
Politoed - Kind of debating this one. I think Kingdra is bonkers under rain but Politoed supplementing the playstyle I don't think would be justification for it to be above Kingdra. They could be in the same rank for the simple fact any rain team or rain core is gonna have both of these while everything else is debatable.
Raikou - Fine in A-, nothing much else to say.
Serperior - Fine in A-, shitty typing holds it back from moving any higher.
Slowbro (Mega) - Fine in A- to me personally although I guess some people didn't think so.
Volcarona - Teams autolosing to this is a travesty but oh well, that enough solidifies it in A-
Alakazam - Most team thinks this should rise. Some have reasoned that the gap between Alakazam and Mega Alakazam viability shouldn't be that close though so I guess some reasoning or ideas would be nice.
Breloom - Been using it a ton lately with SD / Toxic Orb set Seed Bomb, Drain Punch, Mach Punch, SD winning a bunch of games with it. It's definitely solid in B+
Diggersby - I never understood the allure of Diggersby at this point in the meta. I guess it's wall-breaking power is kind of cute if you can actually pull it off. Just two cents.
Dragalge - We had a pretty big discussion I guess about two hours ago about this dropping. On one hand I sort of get where pro-drop is coming from in how it's slow as hell gets extremely worn down on the other hand this thing is forcing switches and netting huge damage when it clicks a STAB move. I've had a lot of success with it personally but I sort of get where a drop is coming from now in the meta with this heavier duty offense and stuff like Garchomp everywhere and grounds who can obliterate it.
Dragonite - Fine in B+. A- or higher is too much.
Gallade (Mega) - Never cared for this, probably never will. No comment.
Heracross (Mega) - I would technically drop this after extended use of it but realistically this is better than all the megas with the exception of Mega Tyranitar below it and most of the mons so have to say fine with this for now.
Hydreigon - No comment
Kabutops - Fine
Kingdra - Definitely fine lol
Magnezone - I honestly never liked this thing at all. I've always felt like Magnezone was a desperate attempt to patch up a team weakness that weren't always reliable enough to do so. Lots of Skarmory and stuff that Mega Altaria wants out of the picture in the meta right now so I guess this is ok.
Mamoswine - Fine in B+, it's really not A- material, not on the level of Volcarona and Mew basically.
Slowking - Just moved here.
Suicune - I think this is good after a lot of use with it, some don't. Better than almost everything in B though.
Swampert (Mega) - Haven't used this in awhile cause I don't find rain that enjoyable or appealing to use anymore.
Terrakion - Good in B+
Togekiss - It's ok but no definitive comment since I don't think I've used it to a level where I feel comfortable saying it's B+
Victini - Ladder hero mon, when people realize how overhyped this is maybe it'll drop but until then fine in B+ I guess
Amoonguss - Good in B
Azelf - Fine in B
Beedrill (Mega) - Fat chomp everywhere, fatter balance teams, hazard stacking teams everywhere. I think this is less appealing everytime I think about making a team where good M-Beedrill teams to me dedicate a lot of team support to supplement it and be this momentum grabber.
Chesnaught - This thing is actually super mediocre lol. It's so team specific and half of the stuff it's suppose to defensively check it can't even do so effectively due to the nature of the meta and how exploitable this can end up being.
Crawdaunt - Better than most people give it credit for. Has a good matchup against two opposite ends of the spectrum because of the tools it has to utilize, SD to break defensive builds with Aqua Jet + SD to handle offense.
Empoleon - This is ok in B for now.
Garchomp (Mega) - No comment, the few times I've used it I think were terrible so not gonna base my judgement solely on those few instances for now.
Gothitelle - Fine here
Hawlucha - Definitely fine here.
Medicham (Mega) - Probably should be same rank as M-Gallade at this point.
Quagsire - Needs to drop. Everything it defensively blanket checks is nice in theory and falls apart in practice. It defensively checks a good amount of stuff but after that it's so hard to justify using this unless you're using something completely unorthodox
Omastar - I wouldn't raise this personally. I find Kingdra superior to Omastar overall and if need be when I'm not exhausted can explain why I think it's fine here.
Reuniclus - Good here
Sceptile (Mega) - Never was a fan of this, but ben had a point in that all out attacker sets pack a punch.
Scizor - It's fine in B. People exaggerate the hell out of this for B+
Scolipede - Fine in B
Sharpedo (Mega) - Fine in B, disgusting cleaner
Tentacruel - This is in my eyes, a garbage mon. All of the utility it provides isn't even as hyped up as it is made out to be.
Zapdos - Fine here
Bronzong - Fine here
Conkeldurr - Fine here
Feraligatr - Could probably drop. Tyrantrum is better than this honestly and this got hyped a lot when in practice I think it's a different story personally.
Gastrodon - Fine here
Houndoom (Mega) - I still think this is bad but it's gonna get hyped up about what it does in how it supposably can break all of its checks and counters out of some scenario that magically popped out of thin air. Abstain.
Infernape - fine here
Lucario - Fine here
Mandibuzz - Lame mon so team specific at this point sort of surviving in the fact it's better than most C+.
Sylveon - I guess this is ok for Specs set.
Tangrowth - Fine here. Nice pivot, good bulk with AV, decent power to boot with coverage options.
Toxicroak - Fine here, B is pushing it a bit I think just from my time using it.
Tyranitar (Mega) - This could honestly rise two subranks rofl but I'll hold off on that see how meta actually settles and see if people start getting the picture.
Tyrantrum - Fine here.
Feel free to reply to a specific part if you want a more detailed description of my thought process for an individual mon. I might not reply to you right away though, pretty tired.
 
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