Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
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Completely agree with the Poliwrath nom for D, while it is very team specific, it gives insurance vs a collection of threats that are otherwise very difficult to cover in one slot reliably, particularly for the bulkier kinds of teams it can be found on. I'm actually very surprised it isn't ranked yet.
 
It isnt and shouldnt be ranked because with the exception of water absorb, keldeo can accomplish the same role with a more bulky spread to defensively check all those things mentioned. I've used both and there really isnt a point to poliwrath usage anymore.
 
It isnt and shouldnt be ranked because with the exception of water absorb, keldeo can accomplish the same role with a more bulky spread to defensively check all those things mentioned. I've used both and there really isnt a point to poliwrath usage anymore.
There is a bulky Keldeo set ? If there is, I doubt it can shuffle switch-ins like Poliwrath does.
 
There is a bulky Keldeo set ? If there is, I doubt it can shuffle switch-ins like Poliwrath does.
Keldeo can shuffle switch-ins with roar, which I would argue is a much better phazing move than Circle Throw because its more accurate and goes through subs.
 
So is it like, Scald, Roar, Rest, Sleep Talk ? Never knew this existed... we learn something new everyday, I guess.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237240185 once again ill nominated mega obama for d rank While it has clear limitations this guy just destroys stall and has perfect coverage (ice shard,blizzard,giga,eq etc) most balanced teams are slow and very fat right now and that goes into mega obama strengths.. heres him destroying balanced basically by himself
 
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Poliwrath does indeed get outclassed by Keldeo in that role like AM said. Also, if people see a Poliwrath, they will know it is RestTalk with phazing. If they see a Keldeo, no one will expect RestTalk. Keldeo gives you the surprise momentum and does the role just as good and even a bit better with the exception of Water Absorb. Iirc, Poliwrath for D rank was brought up not too long ago, and that did not end up getting it a rank, so I don't see why it should get ranked now. Poliwrath to stay unranked.
 
So I've noticed there's been some discussion on dropping Pinsir to the B ranks. I'll make a pretty good guess that the people who think Pinsir should drop are saying so because he's rarely seen in the metagame, and this somehow equates to him being worse. As a person whose mained this bug for all of ORAS (depsite the new megas) I can say that Pinsir is even better now than a few months ago. He's pretty unprepared for, and can still pull off nifty stuff.

Fun Folder (I chose a few replays that were interesting. I dont save my stuff all that much and I haven't been on showdown a lot since the Aegislash ban due to work.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236672658 (Paralyzed Sweep 5-mons)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-223659784 (Stealth Rock Pinsir on Rain lol)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-224269788 (The Revenge of Stealth Rock Pinsir)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230086783 (Pinsir vs. Standard OU. Tell Showdown to fix cancel button pls, k thx)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-225480216 (Lando-T is a Counter. M-Metagross is a counter. Nah.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-225483327 (Obligatory vs. Sable-eye Stall match)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-225513134 (Your Bulky Grasses are not safe.)


Anyway, I think people are overestimating the effect of hazards and underestimating the value of powerful, flying-type priority + STAB, and Pinsir's monstrous attack stat (even without an SD). In addition, I can't see this thing sharing a rank with sweepers like Gallade, Swampert, Dragonite >_>. Seriously, Pinsir blows these mons far out of the water.

Now obviously this post isn't a nomination.
Its just a tier defense statement and just a brief reminder that Pinsir is better in practice than he is on paper and theory.
Anyway, I think Pinsir should remain A- for now.
Do not use the Stealth Rock set either. Its OP
Hoopa-U is the Future.

Ciao.
 
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blunder

the bobby fischer of pokemon
is a Tiering Contributoris the Smogon Tour Season 25 Champion
while pinsir isn't a "bad" pokemon, its usefulness has dropped a lot since the release of oras and it's an easily forgettable pokemon in the current meta. the single most annoying thing to it is probably fast electric types such as raikou and thundurus which are starting to become more common since manaphy is so popular. despite these sorts of problems, i also think pinsir should stay in a- rank. the most common defensive check in the past was skarmory, which is usually specially defensive to take on the latis as well as tornadus which means that it can no longer switch in easily to take boosted returns or close combats. return also pretty much destroys half of the meta right now as well. i think one of the biggest issues to it right now is the rise of helmet chomps as well as the overall speed creep with mega evolutions, such as mega diancie and metagross.
 
I don't know if shedinja should be D ranked even it's one of the only teams I ever play. But i think he has a semi flexible toolbox to cripple nearly any switch in vs him, how I play him.

Struggle bug - lowers special attack and shedinja doesn't really care about its speed evs much anyhow for underwhelming damage, but avoids rocky helmet damage or will -o- wisp to heatran if unsure on if they'll stay in or switch.

And just between lowering one of their attacks, proitity and forcing a lot of free switches he let's You adjust Your team to invest more into speed.

Also pre oras Ubers with heatran and protect I have stalled out a few key moves like scared fire then I could safely wall ho-ho with other pokes not afraid of the burn and just set up.

But he can't really do anything without the mega Sableye and heatran core even if it is hard to switch into something that can threaten 2/3 of them but at least shed brings into being immune to fairy, water, ground and fighting and to then cripple, Something heatran/mega Sableye adore.
 
Welcome to Smogon, INSANE CARZY GUY, but there is one thing I need to nitpick about. No Pokemon in this game should be using Struggle Bug, as there is no Technician mon with a decent SpA stat that needs a Bug move. Shedinja only has 1 HP anyway, so inflicting a stat drop at most helps you if somebody else needs to get in, which is not enough to justify a 50 BP move off 45 SpA. Just use X-Scissor and break through stuff.

Protect-stalling, if you can pull it off, is somewhat viable.

Onto my opinion about Sheddy: To think that, following a proposal to blacklist it, there would actually be serious discussion. I'm not sure how to feel about it. It's been something I feel a lot of people have simply dismissed offhand as a low-ladder gimmick, but at the same time virgin was kind enough to grace us with a replay in which Sheddy actually puts in work, and to actually use Wonder Guard instead of simply abusing it. It's kinda like Protect: used well, it can kill momentum, but abused, it simply makes you predictable. I also think virgin captures the essence of Sheddy perfectly in one sentence from his initial nom (brackets are my own input):
virgin said:
On his own, he doesn't do much damage [especially from base 90 in a game where he can't afford to Swords Dance], but the very threat of Shedinja on the team forces your opponents to play differently.
All the same, there's no denying the support it needs to stay in, since no matter which item you run you still need to keep a lot off the field in order for Sheddy to get in. I think some people see Wonder Guard as a free opportunity to get in and sweep, when in reality it works a lot better as a pivot, absorbing crucial hits and then bouncing out before it has to take a hit. Baton Pass means it's not the end of the world should it take a Toxic or Will-O, as provided it takes it the turn it's passing out, a cleric can save Sheddy's life.

All said, we all know that Shedinja requires a ton of support to function properly, but it can also provide some support. This allows it to, in my opinion, function on certain teams, and thus worthy of a ranking, but I would say it deserves E rank if and when that is implemented, as it remains the frailest Pokemon in the entire game, and the degree of required support may be judged to be too much by some--in fact, many--people.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237268274
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237297963
(more will be added later)

As you can see from these replay Poliwrath served as a primary wincon for me pretty much throughout the match and was the only reason why I won. roar keld may have worked pretty well instead of wrath, but csircle throw's damage dealing factor came in handy a couple times throughout the match, specifically when it circle threw a scarfed Rotom-W, making it into death fodder, which roar from keld is definetely not able to do. My team may not be the best in the world, and there certainly were not world-class players on either side of the battle field, but this replay clearly shows the merits that shuffler Poliwrath has over roar Keld. On another note, water absorb users don't wall the Poliwrath set in a pure 1v1 situation. Also, I show how much of a good mon Banette is and why it deserves D rank as well with taunting things, dealilng heavy damage with sclaw and spreading burns around with prankster dbonds to boot.

If there's anything I missed or forgot to cover, I will include it later.

Poliwrath for D (or ben gay rank)
Seconding Mega Banette for D
 
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Keldeo may be similar to Poliwrath, but what exactly does it have over it? Poliwrath is slightly bulkier (90/95/90 compared to Keldeo's 91/90/90), has water absorb, and circle throw does damage. Keldeo may have base 108 speed and base 129 sp atk, but those hold little weight on a defensive pokemon. Neither will be investing in speed, so base 108 speed is mostly irrelevant. 129 special attack is good, but uninvested Scald won't hurt too much and Keldeo only really uses it for the burn chance like Poliwrath. So while Keldeo is very similar to Poliwrath, Poliwrath's pros over Keldeo seem better to me than Keldeo's pros over Poliwrath as a defensive phaser that checks many top OU threats.

Edit: Don't forget that Circle Throw actually does a lot to Bisharp and dents Mega Gyarados as well, two pokemon Poliwrath is supposed to check
 
As far as team building limits it gives You i think have heatran/mega eye and a poison/rapid spinner is needed and from that point You can fiddle with Your counters Azumaril between rough play/waterfall blows apart all the pursuit and sand stream users I can think of besides mega meta/scizor.

And that role is also open to keldeo or any one with a hard hitting moon blast.

I find fairy and gliscor to be a problem for my build of Sableye and heatran so maybe I can run my own gliscor and shedinja helps that stalling monster do its job even better with being immune to ice/water and like I said for struggle bug it's good for the niche of cutting the balls off of hard counters that really can hurt Your team like if they have a heatran/thorn core, where if You struggle bug heatran special attack drops enough to be able to safely wall it and You don't risk dieing from thorn or boosting heatran with wisp.

And if a team has all the answers it'll ever need You can still sack shedinja picking which counter he will cripple before dieing, getting a burn on tar tar dieing and switching into mega sab, oh well he can't do anything anymore set up or cripple the next poke, however You run sab
 
Keldeo may be similar to Poliwrath, but what exactly does it have over it? Poliwrath is slightly bulkier (90/95/90 compared to Keldeo's 91/90/90), has water absorb, and circle throw does damage. Keldeo may have base 108 speed and base 129 sp atk, but those hold little weight on a defensive pokemon. Neither will be investing in speed, so base 108 speed is mostly irrelevant. 129 special attack is good, but uninvested Scald won't hurt too much and Keldeo only really uses it for the burn chance like Poliwrath. So while Keldeo is very similar to Poliwrath, Poliwrath's pros over Keldeo seem better to me than Keldeo's pros over Poliwrath as a defensive phaser that checks many top OU threats.

Edit: Don't forget that Circle Throw actually does a lot to Bisharp and dents Mega Gyarados as well, two pokemon Poliwrath is supposed to check
Uh, Keldeo has the luxury of running speed to outrun stuff in the meta and not be a sitting duck in the face of everything lol as in everything else besides what Poliwrath would be "checking". That is why using Poliwrath, or at least one very overlooked trait in lack of customization, clearly is a massive waste of time. You do realize Poliwrath has 70 SpAtk correct? and that it's going to be uninvested as well, so if you think Keldeos Scald won't hurt much Poliwraths scald is going to be a desperate attempt to just catch a burn and will hit like tissue against most neutral resists, at least Keldeos has a bit of firepower to it.

Well Mega Gyarados ignores Water Absorb with Mold Breaker so you're still taking a hit from that. Keldeo has always been a traditional Bisharp check and has a little move called Secret Sword which coincidentally hurts all those things without the need to lose the priority game and get hit first due to the nature of phasing moves. Poliwrath has one pro, Water Absorb, and that's not even close to being enough to somehow establish a single note of superiority over Keldeo what so ever in practice because almost every single relevant or threatening one such as Manaphy, Gyarados, and Keldeo as examples can still put a massive dent in you and or just outright beat. Then you take into account everything else in the meta that can come in and turn Poliwrath into a liability while Keldeo at least falls under a speed tier to hit stuff like Landorus and the Zards before they get out of hand and just put an enormous hole in you where you're forced to either be sacked or Rest at that very moment to try and pick up the slack in the scenario you weren't just KO'd.

I don't support Shedinja ranking either, not a whole lot to say. I'll address some noms later if I don't forget lol.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Tiering Contributor
Uh, Keldeo has the luxury of running speed to outrun stuff in the meta and not be a sitting duck in the face of everything lol as in everything else besides what Poliwrath would be "checking". That is why using Poliwrath, or at least one very overlooked trait in lack of customization, clearly is a massive waste of time. You do realize Poliwrath has 70 SpAtk correct? and that it's going to be uninvested as well, so if you think Keldeos Scald won't hurt much Poliwraths scald is going to be a desperate attempt to just catch a burn and will hit like tissue against most neutral resists, at least Keldeos has a bit of firepower to it.

Well Mega Gyarados ignores Water Absorb with Mold Breaker so you're still taking a hit from that. Keldeo has always been a traditional Bisharp check and has a little move called Secret Sword which coincidentally hurts all those things without the need to lose the priority game and get hit first due to the nature of phasing moves. Poliwrath has one pro, Water Absorb, and that's not even close to being enough to somehow establish a single note of superiority over Keldeo what so ever in practice because almost every single relevant or threatening one such as Manaphy, Gyarados, and Keldeo as examples can still put a massive dent in you and or just outright beat. Then you take into account everything else in the meta that can come in and turn Poliwrath into a liability while Keldeo at least falls under a speed tier to hit stuff like Landorus and the Zards before they get out of hand and just put an enormous hole in you where you're forced to either be sacked or Rest at that very moment to try and pick up the slack in the scenario you weren't just KO'd.

I don't support Shedinja ranking either, not a whole lot to say. I'll address some noms later if I don't forget lol.
I don't mean to be rude, I am just wondering what the details of the set you would run actually are because if we assume you have Scald / Secret Sword / Roar / Rest, then eventually you're going to have to Rest and be a sitting duck for something regardless. Being able to combine Fighting STAB and phazing on Poliwrath at least means you can run Sleep Talk, which makes you less useless for the Rest turns. Circle Throw also makes you less prone to Taunt mons that don't care about Keldeo's STABs.
 
Uh, Keldeo has the luxury of running speed to outrun stuff in the meta and not be a sitting duck in the face of everything lol as in everything else besides what Poliwrath would be "checking". That is why using Poliwrath, or at least one very overlooked trait in lack of customization, clearly is a massive waste of time. You do realize Poliwrath has 70 SpAtk correct? and that it's going to be uninvested as well, so if you think Keldeos Scald won't hurt much Poliwraths scald is going to be a desperate attempt to just catch a burn and will hit like tissue against most neutral resists, at least Keldeos has a bit of firepower to it.

Well Mega Gyarados ignores Water Absorb with Mold Breaker so you're still taking a hit from that. Keldeo has always been a traditional Bisharp check and has a little move called Secret Sword which coincidentally hurts all those things without the need to lose the priority game and get hit first due to the nature of phasing moves. Poliwrath has one pro, Water Absorb, and that's not even close to being enough to somehow establish a single note of superiority over Keldeo what so ever in practice because almost every single relevant or threatening one such as Manaphy, Gyarados, and Keldeo as examples can still put a massive dent in you and or just outright beat. Then you take into account everything else in the meta that can come in and turn Poliwrath into a liability while Keldeo at least falls under a speed tier to hit stuff like Landorus and the Zards before they get out of hand and just put an enormous hole in you where you're forced to either be sacked or Rest at that very moment to try and pick up the slack in the scenario you weren't just KO'd.

I don't support Shedinja ranking either, not a whole lot to say. I'll address some noms later if I don't forget lol.
can you provide the specific set that you are using so that I know what the pros and cons of the set are and can respond to your post with logical reasoning in response?
 
I don't mean to be rude, I am just wondering what the details of the set you would run actually are because if we assume you have Scald / Secret Sword / Roar / Rest, then eventually you're going to have to Rest and be a sitting duck for something regardless. Being able to combine Fighting STAB and phazing on Poliwrath at least means you can run Sleep Talk, which makes you less useless for the Rest turns. It also makes you less prone to Taunt mons that don't care about Keldeo's STABs.
Scald, Secret Sword. After that Protect, Rest, Taunt, Sleep Talk, Toxic, SubToxic with Lefties, Hp and speed, hp + defense + speed creep hence customization, the customization that a team builder loves because they have choices to pick and choose how it functions not only for itself and its team. You do realize that Sleep Talk is still a gamble right? You actually don't pose a legitimate threat other than relying on the RNG to do the work for you and assume you're in the drivers seat of sleep talk in that you will always magically phase them out? You also take into account these Taunt mons will just shut Poliwrath completely down the moment it gets taunted in its sleep, and the majority of these taunt mons fall under a higher speed tier such as Mew who won't care at all cause they'll know its a Poliwrath and unless they're completely oblivious to anything lower tier related or you're using something ridicolous like Swift Swim Poliwrath, they'll have an idea of what's coming. Keldeos presence alone means that they need to be aware of a couple of sets and just not assume that switching in with say, your Clefable, is actually the right choice otherwise it has the potential to get blown back by Specs Hydro Pump. The majority of Taunt mons, care about Keldeo. There's not a whole lot of them that are fast and can run Taunt at the same and if they are fast like Gengar for example chances are they're not exactly gonna be ever mandated as a switch in to Keldeo on any team. Just cause Poliwrath is apparently the new thing to a group of individuals here doesn't necessarily mean it should just be bandwagoned for the preconceived notion that it's effective enough to warrant a slot on teams.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Tiering Contributor
OK, that's fair enough, thanks for explaining so thoroughly, not going to keep arguing because it's only a D Rank nom at the end of the day and if people want to use it they still will. Keld set seems interesting will have to try it sometime.
 
Scald, Secret Sword. After that Protect, Rest, Taunt, Sleep Talk, Toxic, SubToxic with Lefties, Hp and speed, hp + defense + speed creep hence customization, the customization that a team builder loves because they have choices to pick and choose how it functions not only for itself and its team. You do realize that Sleep Talk is still a gamble right? You actually don't pose a legitimate threat other than relying on the RNG to do the work for you and assume you're in the drivers seat of sleep talk in that you will always magically phase them out? You also take into account these Taunt mons will just shut Poliwrath completely down the moment it gets taunted in its sleep, and the majority of these taunt mons fall under a higher speed tier such as Mew who won't care at all cause they'll know its a Poliwrath and unless they're completely oblivious to anything lower tier related or you're using something ridicolous like Swift Swim Poliwrath, they'll have an idea of what's coming. Keldeos presence alone means that they need to be aware of a couple of sets and just not assume that switching in with say, your Clefable, is actually the right choice otherwise it has the potential to get blown back by Specs Hydro Pump. The majority of Taunt mons, care about Keldeo. There's not a whole lot of them that are fast and can run Taunt at the same and if they are fast like Gengar for example chances are they're not exactly gonna be ever mandated as a switch in to Keldeo on any team. Just cause Poliwrath is apparently the new thing to a group of individuals here doesn't necessarily mean it should just be bandwagoned for the preconceived notion that it's effective enough to warrant a slot on teams.
First of all, to speed creep the mons that you talked about Keldeo speed creeping in your previous post, then you'd have to run close to max speed to creep them, leavinig damn near nothing left to use for physical bulk or HP, losing out to the physically defensive Poliwrath set in that regard because of your lack of bulk. Sleep talk uses a damaging move 2/3 times on Poliwrath, and your opponent can't freely switch in mons vs it with no regret whereas they can do that against a sleeping Keldeo. The taunt user that you said in Mew shuts down Keldeo as well as it can easily tank an uninvested scald and fire back with its STAB moves. Sure that they don't know what set your Keldeo is running, but Roar Keldeo is usually used on hazard stacking teams, so if they see say a Klefki and a Heatran to go along with it because you're running hazard stack, then they'll know that it is going to be a set that takes advantage of hazard stack, most commonly roar. If you're not running speed, which you shouldn't if you're looking to have a bulky set, then most taunt users outspeed you anyways. Your opponent isn't going to be someone who doesn't know anything about team makeup in higher level matches, and they will probably be able to figure out what Keldeo set you're running when they see a hazard stacking team. Also, Keldeo can't speed creep all the mons you're talking about while still maintaining the bulk that got the Poliwrath set nominated in the first place, so please don't act like it does.
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Keep Shedinja unranked. The fact that it needs support so it doesn't instantly die without doing anything is stupid, plus its doesn't do much anyway because it's weak as balls and other shit can spread burns with Will-O-Wisp. Like I said before it only really works in a tournament setting when you can potentially counter-team your opponent with it, but even then I highly doubt you'll get the chance to do so very often (if at all).
 
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Shedinja counters baton pass and rain pretty solid neither of them have more than 2-3 moves that can get past shed and they can't afford to keep burning turns playing cat and mouse repeatedly eating rocks and status.

It's not great but I think ou might be it's best tier right now and it is a hard counter to a lot of solid pokes but it's a gimmick as far as being read based and lures are still a thing.

And we both know there is no 100% method to get hazards out or to keep them from leaving. Imprison smeargle?
 
I see your logic here, but C might be pushing it. I feel like Mega Banette has too much opportunity cost for what it does, and its ability to take down something relies too heavily on Destiny Bond, which Gengar arguably does better due to its offensive prowess and ability to wreak havoc outside of sacrificing itself. Heck, even Mega Houndoom and Mega Shark can net some surprise KOes with Bond, Destiny Bond after they've already swept through part of a team and done some damage. Sure you have Prankster Will-O-Wisp, but aren't you getting that on turn one with Mega Sableye? Plus, Mega Banette is still too frail to abuse the effective defensive boost from Will-O-Wisp, so the point is moot. If it even gets a ranking, I feel like D would be fitting, but I still am not convinced that it has earned a spot. I saw the replay, you Burned an excadrill, took out a heavily weakened target with shadow claw, and finished a Gyarados with destiny bond (it was also futilely clicking natural gift when it had other options), but I feel as if Gengar or Mega Manectric could have done those roles better, destiny bond only has 8 PP at most, so it is disadvantageous to continually click it, as one can exploit your repeated clicking by setting up in your face or stacking hazards if you try to lead with it. Yes you have taunt, but it's not deterring something from OHKOing you the turn you try to taunt. It's just like the case of Bisharp's sucker punch.
this is why i don't typically post in this thread, glad it's just one user and not an entire shitstorm. either way i can already tell that you haven't even bothered to try out banette, if not correctly so. you're also ignoring the fact that it has PRIORITY destiny bond. mons like gengar, houndoom, and sharpedo seldom run destiny bond, as they have much better things to do with their time. Being able to outprioritize other priority mons or take out something faster that has already set up like dd mons is something i'm sure the mons you mentioned are unable to do. ok, so sableye also has prankster will-o-wisp for the first turn before it mega evos, added to the fact that it is a lot more passive and easier to play around. pretty sure its acknowledgable that sableye is the better mon in some circumstances, which is why i nommed banette to C, a rank of comparable viability to that and the mons currently in it. banette is not frail unless you don't invest in defenses, which is what you should be doing. it's not even supposed to really take advantage of burn, moreso a teamplayer that can cripple mons for something else? yes, it did all of those things but by no means was leftiez spamming nat gift a 'choke'. i already won at that point because if he dds on my dbond, i just spam shadow claw and dbond repeatedly until gyara dies. what other options did he possibly have, because i couldn't see any. also, why are you comparing offensive mons like gengar and megaman to banette, when their roles are different in so many aspects? alright now you are basically pulling for straws. i clearly said a well played banette, not a run off the mill slap on for a team that has no purpose. 8 pp for dbond is quite enough with its lifespan since it has so no recovery and might have to tank a hit premega. if you're just spamming dbond and not getting anywhere, the fault lies on the user's skill level and not so much the mon itself, especially when that's just the icing on the cake. did you really not read my explanation? after it dbonds it can just as easily go for a slow attacking move, you don't even have to taunt since dbond is still in effect the turn before you move. bisharp's sucker punch is what you call a 50/50, and if you even got anything out of my post, it should be abundantly clear that what banette does is not a 50/50. you should also take a look at the current C rank, if that isn't any reason enough. ampharos and absol have just as much opportunity cost as a mega as banette, and while they both have their own solid niches, so does banette. C is not so much to ask, please don't plead ignorance and nom D when you basically demonstrated that you don't have much of a clue of what you're talking about.
 
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First of all, to speed creep the mons that you talked about Keldeo speed creeping in your previous post, then you'd have to run close to max speed to creep them, leavinig damn near nothing left to use for physical bulk or HP, losing out to the physically defensive Poliwrath set in that regard because of your lack of bulk. Sleep talk uses a damaging move 2/3 times on Poliwrath, and your opponent can't freely switch in mons vs it with no regret whereas they can do that against a sleeping Keldeo. The taunt user that you said in Mew shuts down Keldeo as well as it can easily tank an uninvested scald and fire back with its STAB moves. Sure that they don't know what set your Keldeo is running, but Roar Keldeo is usually used on hazard stacking teams, so if they see say a Klefki and a Heatran to go along with it because you're running hazard stack, then they'll know that it is going to be a set that takes advantage of hazard stack, most commonly roar. If you're not running speed, which you shouldn't if you're looking to have a bulky set, then most taunt users outspeed you anyways. Your opponent isn't going to be someone who doesn't know anything about team makeup in higher level matches, and they will probably be able to figure out what Keldeo set you're running when they see a hazard stacking team. Also, Keldeo can't speed creep all the mons you're talking about while still maintaining the bulk that got the Poliwrath set nominated in the first place, so please don't act like it does.
Hazard stacking teams....are everywhere. Keldeos set doesn't dictate this what are you talking about -.-?
If you're not running speed, which you shouldn't if you're looking to have a bulky set, then most taunt users outspeed you anyways.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235253204

You mean this? Where I'm not suppose to run speed because there is some sort of arbitrary rule now in not doing this for something that has the luxury of running said speed? For reference this was a max speed max HP Keldeo on this specific team part of the team as one of two stall-breakers. The speed allowed Keldeo to Taunt Garchomp on Turn 20 and stop it from setting rocks, rocks that would've removed my advantage and in the end would've worn down my mons so that it would be for certain that my opponent would most definitely win. Poliwrath isn't able to do this ever. Establishing that Poliwrath has more bulk is sort of pointless in that they have equally the same bulk yet Keldeos higher speed tier will put it above stuff like Mega Venusaur, Defensive Lando-T, standard fat chomp, Mandibuzz, almost all the fat stuff on stall, etc. Poliwraths speed tier, assuming that we're gonna imply we're riding off a totally defensive set apparently is gonna get outpaced so much stuff in the first place that is normally found on balance.

Now let's get into the realm of how we're justifying Poliwrath and Shedinja to D rank apparently. We're basically gonna say that Poliwrath and Shedinja are on the same playing field as Metagross, Venusaur, Honchkrow, Gorebyss, and Haxorus for D rank. Take that in for a couple of seconds.....a little more.....ok then. Let's be real here with this. Poliwrath isn't exactly some new thing. People have been using it maybe like 5 months ago, if you aren't aware, when rain was a little more dominant than it is by guys like Mob Barley and myself. At a time it was much more justified when you needed something to check all of those things mentioned and not get stomped on by rain. That's not even the case anymore the meta hasn't necessarily geared away from rain but it's not this autowin button like it was several months ago due to the nature of most balanced teams, semi-stall, the realization that Hyper Offense has like a million problems in the metagame such as Mega Lopunny, Weavile, and the stupidity of some set up sweepers thus less appealing outside of general laddering, etc. It doesn't have enough to warrant a D Rank plain and simple.
 
Hazard stacking teams....are everywhere. Keldeos set doesn't dictate this what are you talking about -.-?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235253204

You mean this? Where I'm not suppose to run speed because there is some sort of arbitrary rule now in not doing this for something that has the luxury of running said speed? For reference this was a max speed max HP Keldeo on this specific team part of the team as one of two stall-breakers. The speed allowed Keldeo to Taunt Garchomp on Turn 20 and stop it from setting rocks, rocks that would've removed my advantage and in the end would've worn down my mons so that it would be for certain that my opponent would most definitely win. Poliwrath isn't able to do this ever. Establishing that Poliwrath has more bulk is sort of pointless in that they have equally the same bulk yet Keldeos higher speed tier will put it above stuff like Mega Venusaur, Defensive Lando-T, standard fat chomp, Mandibuzz, almost all the fat stuff on stall, etc. Poliwraths speed tier, assuming that we're gonna imply we're riding off a totally defensive set apparently is gonna get outpaced so much stuff in the first place that is normally found on balance.

Now let's get into the realm of how we're justifying Poliwrath and Shedinja to D rank apparently. We're basically gonna say that Poliwrath and Shedinja are on the same playing field as Metagross, Venusaur, Honchkrow, Gorebyss, and Haxorus for D rank. Take that in for a couple of seconds.....a little more.....ok then. Let's be real here with this. Poliwrath isn't exactly some new thing. People have been using it maybe like 5 months ago, if you aren't aware, when rain was a little more dominant than it is by guys like Mob Barley and myself. At a time it was much more justified when you needed something to check all of those things mentioned and not get stomped on by rain. That's not even the case anymore the meta hasn't necessarily geared away from rain but it's not this autowin button like it was several months ago due to the nature of most balanced teams, semi-stall, the realization that Hyper Offense has like a million problems in the metagame such as Mega Lopunny, Weavile, and the stupidity of some set up sweepers thus less appealing outside of general laddering, etc. It doesn't have enough to warrant a D Rank plain and simple.
Keldeo fares better against the fatmons you mentioned and in the current meta in general it is better, but Poliwrath does have a niche in the tier by being able to function as a decent pivot vs offense, which is what I was trying to imply.
 
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