Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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I doubt that a Pokemon with a quad weakness will ever see S-Rank. It's too easy to cripple/OHKO. It's still good in A+.

I can be wrong but is Physically Rotom-W not outclassed by Specially Defensive Rotom-W?
Lando-I has quad weakness. T-Tar last gen.
These pokemon didn't make it to S-rank because of their defensive abilities, but for being offensive or supportive. A pokemon can have a quad weakness even though it's S-rank.
I don't support Chomp going to S for reasons already stated here on this thread. Keep him A+.

Physically defensive Rotom-W is the way to go, letting it counter/check physical sweepers/wallbreaker easier.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
usage =/= viability check out landorus-i's usage stats imo and see what i mean

That being said Garchomp doesn't deserve S, it's mostly one of the better A+ mons, like Azumarill, or before it was S, Clefable. It has numerous flaws that keep it from going to S and usage statistics don't help at all in your case. If we want to discuss usage, Weavile has gained usage and that hinders Garchomp a lot :p. Ceertain metagame trends don't like Chomp and that's a simple fact of life we have to face here. I'm not going to go into detail but you shouldn't use usage stats as an argument, ever.
First of all, the usage stats were used to show that the higher up you go, the more chomps there are, meaning it's better than usage suggests (and I think it hit number one so the fact that's it's even better means a lot)
Second of all, comparing it to clefable proves that they belong in the same rank. Garchomp, like clef, is an absolute savage. 30% recoil for touching it on tankchomp is insane, allowing it to pose a huge threat to any team. Endure chomp is usable, rest can be used it you want to recover off, and even if it isn't "defining the metagame", Clefable really isn't either. What is undeniable is that it is the pinnacle of the OU metagame. The fact that good players use it more than anything else just proves how many roles it can fill and how few flaws it has.
tl;dr garchomp is insane, chomp to S
 
Pinnacle of the ou metagame ?_?

Garchomp is a glue mon. It's a good physical tank and a great stealth rock setter, and can punish many physical attackers. However, it's not the pinnacle of the metagame. You really never prepare for garchomp. Most of the time you can just take any team and find a way of beating it. All of it sets have some pretty noticeable flaws. Yeah there's a reason good players are using it, it's a good pokemon and glues a team together very well but that doesn't make it S rank worthy.
 
First of all, the usage stats were used to show that the higher up you go, the more chomps there are, meaning it's better than usage suggests (and I think it hit number one so the fact that's it's even better means a lot)
Second of all, comparing it to clefable proves that they belong in the same rank. Garchomp, like clef, is an absolute savage. 30% recoil for touching it on tankchomp is insane, allowing it to pose a huge threat to any team. Endure chomp is usable, rest can be used it you want to recover off, and even if it isn't "defining the metagame", Clefable really isn't either. What is undeniable is that it is the pinnacle of the OU metagame. The fact that good players use it more than anything else just proves how many roles it can fill and how few flaws it has.
tl;dr garchomp is insane, chomp to S
I compared it to Clef because that was the best example I could think of at the time don't take that as a way to bullshit your way into Chomp being S ranked. Seriously, Usage =/= Viability. I don't give a fuck if it's used more than this S rank 'mon that literally makes no difference in its ranking and shouldn't be used as a meritable argument because if that was the case shit like Hitmonchan and Trevenant in their respective tiers wouldn't be basically blacklisted because they are in that tier by usage. I know that's not the best example but using usage stats for an argument is completely useless and literally proves nothing in the viability of a 'mon. Take one of our best S ranks, Landorus-Incarnate. It's ranked 19 on the usage stats, does that make it any less S rank? HELL NO. Stop using usage as an argument tbh, it really has little to no merit in any applicable argument and makes you look like you're basically fishing for reasons to keep something in it's respective rank or to rank it up. Garchomp basically isn't the pinnacle of OU, it's not like other threats where you have to prepare for them, actually a lot of the time Garchomp is just prepared for naturally on teams because Ice coverage is so common because of aforementioned Landorus and that hurts it. Like sometimes I find myself not preparing for Clef and I fix that, Alt, same thing, etc. etc. etc. I don't ever look at one of my teams and go 'oh this looks weak to garchomp'. S ranks are 'mons that are required to prepare for and will always be that way.
 
Why are we going on about topics that are borderline irrelevant when we already have enough problems on our own hands with the current slate? either way am told me to appease the masses so while i'm at it, might as well make a few nominations of my own.

Banette to C

apparently, someone just flat out said this was that garbage of a mega and threw it away, never to see the light of day. i took it upon myself to dig through this trash heap and on my way, found some pile of goodies lying within. idk bout u guys, but you're really sleeping on this mon if u just casted it away as complete garbage. the very niche this provides for a team is exclusive to solely itself, and it's a fantastic one at that. the set i ran would be destiny bond, taunt, wisp and shadow claw. taunt and dbond are mandatory, but feel free to experiment with it's other moveslots. its role as a stallbreaker might be difficult to grasp, so i'll spell out a scenario. say that i have a full health banette on the field while the opponent has a raikou. raik goes for shadow ball as banette goes for sclaw, both doing bout half to each other. next turn i go for priority dbond as he goes for volt, leaving me close to red. raik switches to azumarill. destiny bond is still in effect before i attack, and he doesn't want to lose azumarill since he may need it for my landorus in the back, so he switches out as i go for sclaw on his ferro switch. i taunt it to prevent it from setting up hazards or going for any leech seed shenanigans and i wisp next turn as he switches out. are you getting it now? a well played banette can completely shut down an opponent's gameplay as it will 100% at least bring one kill along with it, if not severely crippling the opposing team in the process. now imagine having stealth rocks and 1 or 2 layers of spikes, added to the fact that banette is a really good anti-hazard removal mon with priority taunt and a ghost typing to spin block. it can even revenge kill a mon that has already set up and /or can sweep your team, since an altaria would be forced to attack you with taunt, or just repeatedly going for dbond then atking it till it drops. this niche is invaluable for hazard-stack hyper offense, giving mons like scarfsharp and gengar a run for their money(they are good at maintaining hazards, but much less flexible than banette). the one real downside to using this is getting the chance to mega evo in the first place, since it doesn't immediately acquire prankster pre-mega. shouldn't really be a problem though when investing in hp and defenses gives it much needed survivability. unfortunately i was only able to salvage one replay i had, but i think the above explanation is reasoning enough.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-57141

Meloetta to D

pretty sure this isn't asking much, but mixedmelo is at the very least deserving of d. by mixed, i mean lo relic song, psychic, close combat, knock off. often times, its a tad too difficult to actually manage to change form from normal to pirouette. this set should work as two seperate attackers, one special and another physical, so you aren't totally reliant on just getting a relic song off and running purely physical. i use a spread of 132 atk / 144 sp atk / 232 spe hasty/naiive. keep in mind, meloetta is quite powerful in both of its forms, not just one. here's a wall of calcs that showcase its wallbreaking prowess:

144 SpA Life Orb Meloetta Psychic vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
144 SpA Life Orb Meloetta Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 200-238 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
144 SpA Life Orb Meloetta Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 165-195 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
144 SpA Life Orb Meloetta Psychic vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Altaria: 153-181 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
144 SpA Life Orb Meloetta Psychic vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 208-247 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
144 SpA Life Orb Meloetta Relic Song vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 175-208 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
132 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 169-200 (43 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (need sr to 2hko bro)
132 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 273-322 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
132 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 302-356 (101 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 286-338 (88.5 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
132 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 212-251 (87.9 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
132 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 253-298 (78.3 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
132 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 173-204 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236860362
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236872582
 
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Hey everyone. New user here, so my opinion might not mean much, but I've always wondered why Celebi is in A-. I get the concept that it walls top threats like M-Lop, M-Meta, and the like, but why would I use it over Mew? Torn-T, Lando-T, and Talonflame are all fairly relevant forces in the metagame, and Mew handles U-Turns better and could potentially punish non-scarf Lando-T with Willo, Torn with Knock Off if it stays in, and while niche, could run Ancientpower on its offensive set to mess with Talonflame. Celebi can't really punish Lando-T, the worst it can do being Leech Seed, but is potentially under the fire of a U-Turn or a Knock Off that will hurt like hell. Torn-T straight up walls offensive Celebi but fears the defensive set's T-Wave, but other than that Torn is safe to grab free momentum for its team. Talonflame well, doesn't really need a lot of explanation. The pokemon that Celebi can wall are handled better by Mew imo, as M-Lop without H-Bell and M-Meta are easily handled through burn, but the crippling that Celebi gives these Pokemon isn't as effective as straight out cutting their power. Celebi's just a Pokemon that hasn't been working for me recently, so while this isn't really a statement that is coming from a high-level of play (coming off around the 1650 range, so nothing really that high), I would like to see Celebi move to B+.
 
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Yeah also nasty pass and SD pass is better done by mew he can even run vacuum wave if you are afraid of bisharp and other darks, yeah celebi has others niches like checking rain and... keldeo without hidden power bug but i dont find celebi at the same caliber of things like mega pinsir, mew or mega slowbro who literally walls half of the meta but every day the meta seems harder to celebi because things like charizards, tornadus, both landorus are on the rise so i think celebi is not that effective anymore and it needs to fall down to b+.
 
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Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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Going to stray away from the Garchomp -> S discussion b/c that's clearly not happening lol. Anyway, thoughts on a few things :

Personally I don't think Medicham is necessarily a better wallbreaker than Gallade. One thing people tend to forget is that raw power doesn't actually mean that much, what is relevant is what you are or are not walled by (this is why Victini is ranked and Darmanitan is not despite Darm being significantly more powerful). And Gallade only really misses out on Clefable compared to Medicham and that's pretty much it. On the other hand, Medicham misses out on Mew, Cresselia, and MLatias to some extent. And that's assuming it runs maximal offensive coverage in TPunch+Ice Punch otherwise it has way more trouble with both Slowbro and Celebi.
Now, Medicham's main advantage compared to Gallade imo isn't against stall teams, but rather, against balanced ones. At the start of ORAS, it was said that Gallade was less forced to predict than Medicham thanks to SD. But it's actually the other way round : when facing a team with both offensive checks like Talonflame and more defensive checks like Hippowdon, Gallade needs to predict whether to Swords Dance or attack, SD being better if Hippo comes in and CC/Zen if Talon comes in. Medicham doesn't care either way, since attacking is the optimal play in either scenario, getting huge damage on the faster thing and smacking the slower thing too. But if you put that on balance with the ability to outspeed a pretty solid portion of the metagame making it harder to check (it's still not hard to revenge kill but it's not as ridiculously easy as Medicham), the possibility of living certain hits like LO Lati Draco, Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump, Lando-I EPower and so on, being able to pressure defenisive teams more with SD and Knock Off, all that makes it one step above Medicham in terms of overall viability. It may not quite be as easy to use, but it's definitely more rewarding if you use it well.

I don't see this in A+ simply becuase it lacks both reliability and versatility, which makes it prety straightforward to deal with compared to everything in A+ and even most of A. I guess it's consistent in the sense that it'll pretty much always be able to check something, but it can only do this a couple of times before kinda just falling apart. Which is enough to get its partners in safely a couple of times so it does its job most of the time. But the reason I'm calling it unreliable is that it's actually not hard to steal momentum away from. It relies a lot of swicthes from things it forces out in order to Volt Switch out in return and gain momentum, but it's not actually very good at forcing switches. Reason being that preventing Rotom from Volt Switching can be worth having one of your team members weakened or crippled becuase, not only do you get chip damage on Rotom making it easier to 2HKO, but you've also prevented something scary from coming in. This can put Rotom into lose-lose situations, for example againt Excadrill, where it can either WoW or Hydro Pump and lose momentum if Exca swicthes out, or Volt Switch and lose a turn if Exca stays in. This gives the opponent just as much if not more control over what Rotom will be able to do than the Rotom user itself, since he can choose which scenario will be the most beneficial for him. Same apllies to stuff like Landorus (both I and T) Toxic Heatran and Hippowdon, Sub CM Keldeo which can Sub on Volt Switches, and other stuff which it's supposed to beat, and does, but can still kinda screw it over and compromise the rest of the team.
Rotom is imo too reliant on what the opponent does, and therefore easy to take advantage of to be A+ rank imo.

Honestly, I see this as one of the better things in A-, and I have no idea why people want it to drop. One of the main things Celebi does really well is role compression. It's a great check to stuff like Keldeo, Rotom-W, Lopunny, Garchomp, certain Thundurus and Manaphy variants, it's a status absorber, a pivot, can support its team via Nastypass or SDpass, etc. It doesn't do anything incredibly well (besides counter Rotom-W), but it does a good number of things well enough to find a place on a lot of teams. It has a ton of options to fit its team's needs : SR, Heal Bell, PSong, TWave, Leech Seed, U-Turn, you can run stuff like LO Offensive to lure basically every steel type, even Scarf is usable. It's just a very versatile Pokemon which puts in work against almost all matchups, what with being a wall with offensive capabilities via Nasty/SDpass. Keep it A- imo.

Support this. Though Meloetta-P does take one turn to charge up, it's just a super threatening mon once it does : amazing speed tier, good Attack, really powerful STABs with great coverage and accss to Knock Off which perfectly compliments it. It's like a mini hybrid between MLopunny and MGallade, except without taking up a mega slot. And yeah, not being able to do anything initially and being forced into using Relic Song turn 1 kinda sucks, but the metagame is mainly composed of balanced teams right now, which Meloetta does very well against and can find quite a few openings to pull off Relic Song. There's also the fact that most people expect a sub CM set since that was the only kind of set that was really used up until now. If physical Melopetta doesn't deserve to be D rank on its own the combination of it and sub CM defenitely does imo.

This nom probably isn't going to be taken too seriously lol, but still I'm going to adress since it makes a surprisingly solid case for it and brings up a couple of good points, especially about Shedinja being able to completely shut down a few Pokemon and gain momentum against them. The big problem with Shedinja is the crazy amount of support it requires, and the replay kinda shows that. Not only does it need maximum hazard removal (Sableye is pretty much needed as well as a remover), but it also really only fits on VoltTurn since otherwise, it can't come in safely without risking the opponent double-swicthing and getting Purusit trapped or facing a strong Pokemon it cannot do anything against I know you can pretty much apply this to anything, but Shedninja combines the inability to live any hit whatsoever with the complete lack of an offensive presence, leading to it being forced out far, far more easily than anything else). And is it really worth it? Once again the replay (which, to its credit, actually showcases Shedinja's capabilities remarkably well) only shows it BPing and nothing else, the only exception being when the Dragonite was locked into Outrage. Shedinja unfornutely can't really afford to do anything else since it's prey to so much stuff in the tier. This support just doesn't seem worth it for a Pokemon which is only used to gain momentum and nothing else. And needless to say, if the opponent doesn't have something Shedinja walls, or if has a SR setter which beats Sableye+your remover, (in your case, SD Lum Garchomp or Clefable), you're playing a 5v6, with a team built round a Pokemon that is deadweight no less. Although Shedinja has a few qualities, it's not worth the metric ton of support it needs often enough to be ranked. I guess it's a lot like Doublade in that way, and I think I've made it clear in the past that I want it to be unranked, in fact I'd probably rather see Shedinja ranked than Doublade lol. So even though I defenitely respect this nom for being both very well-argued and very ballsy, I can't really support it.
 
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ok after being destroyed in my last argument its time to put my hat back in the ring by trying to push up a a pokemon

DRAGONITE: for a higher ranking
i love this thing, and for good reason. it has one of best abilitys in the game,multiscale, which halves damage if dragonite is at full health. so only really cloysters icicle spear can KO it at full health. plus it has roost to re activate it. all of this means u can set up a one free dd which, if u run outrage is enough to ko alot of the metagame. however if it does run outrage, u most only spam it one steel and faries are gone, so it needs quite a bit of support, not only to remove hazards to preserve multiscale, but also to remove steel/faries (excadrill is a great partner) after steels and faries are removed, u can freely d dance sweep or choice band outrage peeps to death. also it has great coverage, with eq fire punch/blast etc.


in conclusion it hits hard has great coverage great ability and bulk ((91/95/100 is awesome for an offensive mon) but needs support to help it sweep. however its positives outweigh the negatives and therefore should be moved up

EDIT; it also has extreme speed
 
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Nominating Omastar for B+

I think omastar should be in B+ with its other swift swimming companions. It's the best special wallbreaker under rain. Specs hydro OHKOs almost every neutrality and 2HKOs most resists too. A simple set of hydro pump / scald / ice beam / knock off is extremely hard to switch into and even the premier special wall chansey gets 2HKOed under rain after losing its eviolite to knock off. Besides being very powerful, it can just like kabutops, also check talonflame (even better than kabutops thanks to better bulk) which is annoying for rain teams. Another interesting option for omastar is shell smash. This set needs more support to function, as it requires all priority users gone and needs to not have taken too much prior damage. You could call it high risk high reward. Basically if under rain you let this thing get a shell smash up and you don't have any priority users, might as well click the red x, lol.

However, there are some downsides to omastar, mainly its slow speed. It's still decently fast under rain but it can still get outsped by some common choice scarf users such as landorus-t. Other swift swimmers can outspeed basically the entire meta under rain, and while omastar can outspeed a decent chunk of the meta, it still gets outsped by some faster choice scarf users or pokemon like aerodactyl.

Comparing omastar to other swift swimmers:

Omastar pros:

Insanely hard to switch into
Checks talonflame under rain
Shell smash is deadly if it gets one off safely

Cons:

Slower than other swift swimmers
Weak to priority

Kabutops pros:

Swords dance
Rapid Spin
Powerful
Checks talonflame

Cons:

Weak to priority
Frailest swift swimmer

Swampert pros:

Bulky
Electric immunity
Decent SR setter

Cons:

Takes 1 turn to mevo

Kingdra pros:

Powerful
Can go mixed making it hard to wall
Offers grass neutrality

Cons:

Attacks have nasty side effects (outrage, draco meteor)


If you ask me, I'd say omastar is probably around the level of the other swift swimmers so I think it deserves B+.

Replays:

Vs #1 player on ladder
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236934876

Vs Get this money
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236936158 (omastar would've cleaned his team if not for a hydro miss against mamoswine but it's a decent replay I guess)

Power:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain: 310-366 (48.2 - 57%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO (after taking a knock off chansey can't switch in)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Rain: 160-189 (39.9 - 47.1%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo in Rain: 222-261 (68.7 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 191-225 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 

Nominating Omastar for B+

I think omastar should be in B+ with its other swift swimming companions. It's the best special wallbreaker under rain. Specs hydro OHKOs almost every neutrality and 2HKOs most resists too. A simple set of hydro pump / scald / ice beam / knock off is extremely hard to switch into and even the premier special wall chansey gets 2HKOed under rain after losing its eviolite to knock off. Besides being very powerful, it can just like kabutops, also check talonflame (even better than kabutops thanks to better bulk) which is annoying for rain teams. Another interesting option for omastar is shell smash. This set needs more support to function, as it requires all priority users gone and needs to not have taken too much prior damage. You could call it high risk high reward. Basically if under rain you let this thing get a shell smash up and you don't have any priority users, might as well click the red x, lol.

However, there are some downsides to omastar, mainly its slow speed. It's still decently fast under rain but it can still get outsped by some common choice scarf users such as landorus-t. Other swift swimmers can outspeed basically the entire meta under rain, and while omastar can outspeed a decent chunk of the meta, it still gets outsped by some faster choice scarf users or pokemon like aerodactyl.
Omastar should always be one sub rank below the other Swift Swimmers because it requires more team support than Kingdra, M-Swampert, and Kabutops imo. It's only niche really is the Specs set, and though Hydro Pump hits stupidly hard under rain, being locked into a move (Hydro or Knock Off usually) can make things difficult for our Lord Helix. Omastar also 100% NEEDS rain to function because it's slow as balls and wants all the power it can get. Speaking of its speed, Modest only hits 209/418 under rain, which leaves Omastar significantly more prone to scarfers (Jolly Drill and above - that's a lot) and the 145+ megas than King/Pert/Tops. Furthermore, outside of rain, Omastar isn't doing anything to offensive teams and even struggles against some slower builds, while Kingdra, Pert, and Kabutops all manage to maintain a good amount of their offensive presence even if rain isn't up by virtue of their decent speed (Tops/Dra) or bulk/typing (Pert). So ultimately, I don't think Omastar should move up unless the other SS'ers move up, and I don't foresee that happening atm, so Omastar should stay B imo.
 
I support Shedninja to D rank
I used Shedninja in a stall team and it worked pretty well.
Here is a replay of shedninja doing alot of work to against this team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236949030
Something that replay highlighted to me, and it feels incredibly weird for me to say this on so many levels, but Shedinja provides some offensive pressure to Stall teams. Because of course investing in defences does nothing you can afford to invest completely in attack with Adamant 252. (Or jolly if you're real; dat base 40 speed) What I'm getting at here is that Shedinja as shown actually packs a lot more punch than you'd expect it to and actually makes it an incredible psychic counter - very few Psychics carrying offensive moves that will take it out. This to me provides a unique trait and niche to me that might seem worthy of D or the future E.
However, there is of course one fatal flaw - Shedinja is the very definition of matchup-reliant. As was said before, if you're up against the wrong opponent then you're pretty much playing 5v6. If the opposing team is an offensive one which is able to keep up rocks easily and/or beat Sableye easily, or even if the opposing team has a Tyranitar or Hippowdon at all - while you could try and argue this for other Pokémon in terms of counters and checks, if I see a Mega Diancie on my opponent's team that doesn't mean my Mega Sableye is useless or won't pull any weight. Whereas with Shedinja, if I see Tyranitar or Hippowdon, when on earth am I going to bring it in when Sandstorm is kept up so much?

At the end of the day I think the issue doesn't come down to Shedinja not pulling it's work, but more that it's a case of extremes in terms of matchup - if it doesn't see certain things, it's going to do good. If it does see those certain things, it's dead before the match begins. Sometimes literally. So a case for D-rank would, imo, have to argue why Shedinja is worth taking up a valuable teamslot and if the work it does against certain teams is enough to justify making the user occasionally play 5v6s.
 
The biggest Problem with Shedinja is not Stealth Rock, which can be handled, it's Sandstorm Damage. Ttar/Hippo can easily switch in and Mills it with the weather damage alone.
 
Time for a slightly controversial nomination, but I feel that Mega Altaria should drop to A+.

Having only 80 base speed seems to hinder it, where Mega Charizard X has 100, even after boosting, Mega Altaria is prone to being outsped by and revenge killed by various scarfers and mega Beedrill. The dragon dance set still can't break through Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, etc, and if it chooses to run fire blast, it loses out on roost.
The special set is quite notable having Pixilate STAB hyper voice and access to heal bell, but I feel that mega Gardevoir does its role as an offensive Wallbreaker better due to having better coverage. Heatran walls any special set that lacks earthquake, but running earthquake causes mega Altaria on having to lose out on either roost or heal bell. Mega Altaria is an example of a Pokemon that wants everything and has almost everything in its moveset, but only has 4 moveslots.

Plus, in terms of dragon dancing, It has different checks and counters compared to mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados, so it's a pick and choose your poison situation.
 
Time for a slightly controversial nomination, but I feel that Mega Altaria should drop to A+.

Having only 80 base speed seems to hinder it, where Mega Charizard X has 100, even after boosting, Mega Altaria is prone to being outsped by and revenge killed by various scarfers and mega Beedrill. The dragon dance set still can't break through Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, etc, and if it chooses to run fire blast, it loses out on roost.
The special set is quite notable having Pixilate STAB hyper voice and access to heal bell, but I feel that mega Gardevoir does its role as an offensive Wallbreaker better due to having better coverage. Heatran walls any special set that lacks earthquake, but running earthquake causes mega Altaria on having to lose out on either roost or heal bell. Mega Altaria is an example of a Pokemon that wants everything and has almost everything in its moveset, but only has 4 moveslots.

Plus, in terms of dragon dancing, It has different checks and counters compared to mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados, so it's a pick and choose your poison situation.
You're ignoring a lot of the things that make Mega Altaria good when you're doing these comparisons, specifically dat bulk. Yeah, Mega Gardevoir hits harder than the special set, but it also lacks any kind of defensive synergy. You're also picking your movepool based on what your team's needs, so while you might not be able to fit Earthquake and Roost / Heal Bell on to the same set isn't great, you can pick the move that applies best to your team. I could use this argument to drop Megagross from S if I wanted to, since it wants Mash / Hammer / Headbutt and then needs to chose between Grass Knot / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Bullet Punch / Pursuit. That doesn't stop it from being an S-Rank threat, and you shouldn't be using that logic to justify something dropping. Just be glad it's versatile and choose what your team wants most.

As for the DD sets, it does face competition from ZardX and Mega Gyarados (or regular Gyara for that matter). You can argue which one is best offensively, but there's no questioning that Mega Altaria is far better defensively than all three of those, which means more set up opportunities and fewer things that can revenge kill it. And again, Mega Altaria is far more versatile than either of them. Offensive DD has all the coverage you'd want from a DDer, defensive DD with Heal Bell can set up in the face of status users, Cotton Guard just stomps on potential revenge killers, and two attacks with Roost is pretty solid too. There's not too many consistant ways to deal with DD MAlt, because that in and of itself doesn't tell you much about its set. The additional revenge killers thing doesn't hold too much weight either, there's 3 scarfers between 80 and 100 speed (Excadrill, Lando-T, and Kyurem-B), so while those are additional threats they're certainly not justifying a drop. Also Mega Beedrill is kinda rare, so that's not really the best example of a revenge killer.
 
Omastar doesn't need much support, so long you pair it with a faster Swift Swim user and a Scarf Lando / Earthquake switchin (which any Rain team should have anyway). Its ability to break down walls that Kingdra cannot, such as mixed Ferrothorn, should not be understated. It's more useless outside of rain than the other swimmers, but none of them are useful / viable outside of Rain anyway besides MAYBE Mega Swampert, which takes your Mega slot away from Scizor or Heracross. If Rain isn't up, balance / stall should check all of them easily while Offense just powers through them. I see Kingdra as being the premier Swift Swimmer, and Tops / Omastar / Mega Swampert all having their own strengths and weaknesses. If they are B+, Omastar probably should be too because it's the best Rain wallbreaker in OU.
 

Martin

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I'm going to chime in on the Shedinja discussion real quick, 'cause I'm actually kinda intrigued by it. It also makes me want to try out Shedinja myself to see how it fares. Just based on theorymoning, I am going to assume that Protect is a very viable option to scout for coverage that could kill it. Similarly, I am going to assume that Safety Goggles is an option over Focus Sash in OU simply because it is rather easy to scout for coverage that could kill it with Protect, while sandstorm is very common and hard counters Shedinja. Therefore, I am going to be basing what I will say around the following set:

Shedinja @ Safety Goggles / Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Protect / Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass / Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- X-Scissor / Toxic

When I look at Shedinja, the first thing that strikes me is the sheer utility that it gives to defensively oriented VoltTurn teams and stall teams. Wonder Guard is a gorgeous ability for anything to have, and Shedinja puts it to fine use with Baton Pass and Protect to scout and pivot around. Generally speaking, you will be using Shedinja to pivot about in a similar way to AV Tornadus-T, except that it is more defensively oriented due to Wonder Guard. It is actually very capable of hard walling a large portion of the metagame, with scouting using Protect being a big part of how it plays. Having made a basic on-spot analysis, I am going to list what look to me like the pros and cons of using Shedinja:

Pros:
  • Hard walls a big portion of the metagame with Wonder Guard
  • Is capable of crippling physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp
  • Acts as a great pivot for defensively-oriented teams
  • "Offensive" presence for stall
  • Capable of effectively scouting with Protect
  • Great stalling ability due to what it walls
  • Checks sandstorm well with Safety Goggles
  • Capable of taking out weakened Pokemon with Shadow Sneak
  • Shuts down aspects of balanced and defensive playstyles
Cons:
  • Shredded by hazards, making Magic Bounce+Defog/Spin in conjunction mandatory support
  • OHKOed by burn and toxic
  • Weak to five common attacking types (including dark (i.e. Knock Off)), making it very reliant on scouting and note-taking right through the match
  • Literally can't take any one hit
  • Weak to both of the primary sandstorm setter's STABs
  • Setup fodder for Talonflame and Mega Charizard X if it doesn't carry Toxic
  • Complete Pursuit bait
  • Struggles v.s. offense
Overall, I feel like it will be an interesting 'mon to try out. Based on theorymonning alone, I'd say that D fits it perfectly. However, this is just theorymon. Therefore, I am going to try it before I make any final personal decisions regarding it :)
 
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Shedinja didn't contribute anything to this battle that Jellicent couldn't have done better.
Shedinja used it's Focus Sash to survive the Pursuit from Weavile and KO it with X-Scissor where Jellicent probably would have taken heavy damage from the move (and probably died to knock off even if it burned next turn anyway) and completely walled a few 'mons on his team while applying pressure to kill it because at the near-ending of the game Shedinja was the wincon. also making Cobalion not want to set up rocks, and please elaborate on what you mean.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
also making Cobalion not want to set up rocks
Your kidding me right? Mega Sableye was the pokemon who made Cobalion not want to set up rocks, not Shedinja. I have no idea why you were thinking this at all, because if anything Shedinja encourages your opponent to set up hazards since it makes you pretty much lose a pokemon if you can't get rid of hazards. And I also have to agree with QueenofHax here that Jellicent could have done Shedinja's job better in this battle, hell pretty much any bulky water could have done its job better in this battle
 
Honestly, I see this as one of the better things in A-, and I have no idea why people want it to drop. One of the main things Celebi does really well is role compression. It's a great check to stuff like Keldeo, Rotom-W, Lopunny, Garchomp, certain Thundurus and Manaphy variants, it's a status absorber, a pivot, can support its team via Nastypass or SDpass, etc. It doesn't do anything incredibly well (besides counter Rotom-W), but it does a good number of things well enough to find a place on a lot of teams. It has a ton of options to fit its team's needs : SR, Heal Bell, PSong, Leech Seed, U-Turn, you can run stuff like LO Offensive to lure basically every steel type, even Scarf is usable. It's just a very versatile Pokemon which puts in work against almost all matchups, what with being a wall with offensive capabilities via Nasty/SDpass. Keep it A- imo.
I do agree that Celebi is good, yes. But while the Grass typing is giving it resistances to Ground, Electric, and Water, this also gives it weaknesses to Ice (Relevant especially with Weavile on the rise), Flying (Can't switch into Torn-T, Talonflame, or M-Aero like Mew can), and Fire (Making the aforementioned Heatran a threat if it's Balloontran), make it inferior to Mew. Speaking of, what Steels is it hurting? There's Heatran, Excadrill, and Bisharp, with the latter being a 50/50 and the two former with the possibilty of running Balloon. Ferrothron and Skarmory aren't harmed unless you run HP Fire, and the worst part is they can take advantage of that switch-in through hazards. Mew can Taunt them, and burn them to wear them down. Mew also handles Clef and Offensive DD MAlt better than Celebi. I mean yes, the versatility is good and all, but if Celebi isn't getting in, how is it going to utilize its tricks? It just doesn't seem like it's one of the best things in A- atm, but looking at the description of B rank, it's still a very good glue mon, it just needs a bit more support.
 
I do agree that Celebi is good, yes. But while the Grass typing is giving it resistances to Ground, Electric, and Water, this also gives it weaknesses to Ice (Relevant especially with Weavile on the rise), Flying (Can't switch into Torn-T, Talonflame, or M-Aero like Mew can), and Fire (Making the aforementioned Heatran a threat if it's Balloontran), make it inferior to Mew. Speaking of, what Steels is it hurting? There's Heatran, Excadrill, and Bisharp, with the latter being a 50/50 and the two former with the possibilty of running Balloon. Ferrothron and Skarmory aren't harmed unless you run HP Fire, and the worst part is they can take advantage of that switch-in through hazards. Mew can Taunt them, and burn them to wear them down. Mew also handles Clef and Offensive DD MAlt better than Celebi. I mean yes, the versatility is good and all, but if Celebi isn't getting in, how is it going to utilize its tricks? It just doesn't seem like it's one of the best things in A- atm, but looking at the description of B rank, it's still a very good glue mon, it just needs a bit more support.
I don't understand how you can acknowledge Celebi's excellent resistances to Water, Electric and Ground - and Grass; which is pretty good due to Serp - and then just say it's "an inferior Mew". Those resistances are absolutely key to it's job and allows it to form a ton of cores Mew couldn't dream of. With resistances to those in addition to Fighting and Psychic it has absolutely no trouble getting in; it doesn't need to wall Heatran and Talonflame to be good. I've used it a ton of times and in practice it just pulls so much work and is easy to switch in.
 
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