Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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I don't understand how you can acknowledge Celebi's excellent resistances to Water, Electric and Ground - and Grass; which is pretty good due to Serp - and then just say it's "an inferior Mew". Those resistances are absolutely key to it's job and allows it to form a ton of cores Mew couldn't dream of. With resistances to those in addition to Fighting and Psychic it has absolutely no trouble getting in; it doesn't need to wall Heatran and Talonflame to be good. I've used it a ton of times and in practice it just pulls so much work and is easy to switch in.
Maybe it's just how often I've seen Torn-T and Weavile, then. I didn't say it was a requirement to wall Heatran and Talon, I was just listing cons that it has. To me, having weaknesses to Flying and getting significantly more damage from U-Turns isn't doing it any favors. Maybe B+ was exaggerating its cons a bit, but I haven't been having much success with it recently.
 
Your kidding me right? Mega Sableye was the pokemon who made Cobalion not want to set up rocks, not Shedinja. I have no idea why you were thinking this at all, because if anything Shedinja encourages your opponent to set up hazards since it makes you pretty much lose a pokemon if you can't get rid of hazards. And I also have to agree with QueenofHax here that Jellicent could have done Shedinja's job better in this battle, hell pretty much any bulky water could have done its job better in this battle
eh w/e I made a mistake and I'll admit that I did type that in a hurry but no excuses for that b/c it truly was a mistake of mine.

I do agree that Celebi is good, yes. But while the Grass typing is giving it resistances to Ground, Electric, and Water, this also gives it weaknesses to Ice (Relevant especially with Weavile on the rise), Flying (Can't switch into Torn-T, Talonflame, or M-Aero like Mew can), and Fire (Making the aforementioned Heatran a threat if it's Balloontran), make it inferior to Mew. Speaking of, what Steels is it hurting? There's Heatran, Excadrill, and Bisharp, with the latter being a 50/50 and the two former with the possibilty of running Balloon. Ferrothron and Skarmory aren't harmed unless you run HP Fire, and the worst part is they can take advantage of that switch-in through hazards. Mew can Taunt them, and burn them to wear them down. Mew also handles Clef and Offensive DD MAlt better than Celebi. I mean yes, the versatility is good and all, but if Celebi isn't getting in, how is it going to utilize its tricks? It just doesn't seem like it's one of the best things in A- atm, but looking at the description of B rank, it's still a very good glue mon, it just needs a bit more support.
Pls bro. Does lure Celebi ring a bell? Yanno, the one that runs Ancient Power, Earth Power, Leaf Storm/Giga Drain and a filler move? It specifcally lures in those threats and bops them and Celebi is versatile as all hell and deserves the A- rank it stays in b/c it can Swords pass Nasty pass pivot be a cleric have healing wish support be a good attacker Calm Mind pass lure in threats that come in on it and hell I've used Coba Berry (that's the one that works on flying iirc) Ancient Power Celebi to lure in Talonflame because my team had a problem for it and it's an excellent glue mon that can fill in many different roles on a team and prove to be an excellent pivot and tank while having the expansive movepool it has to be able to benefit your team by using lure sets and still have utility llike baton pass and stuff to be able to help your team and you're serverely underrating it while not even acknowledging that is learns twave and stuff to fuck with some of its checks like talonflame and stuff so you're completely ignoring the versatility that celebi provied to a team that makes it such a good glue mon and while it's typing is a double edged sword it has ample amounts of switchins and being able to wall common mons and 100/100/100 bulk is respectable and it can take some x2 hits pretty easily and make some threats cry and not want to switch in ebcause of shit like twave coba ancient power colbur hp fire (or fighting if u roll like that) occa earth power and all of that stuff but the fact that you're not acknowledging how versatile it is really pisses me off.

sorry if i came off as rude, welcome to smogon.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Going to repost this (plz dont kill me mods) because I think it's a better idea than Celebi to B+:
"Mew for A
Honestly, this thing is way too versatile (pun intended if you play TCG). The spdef set is a counter to lando, knock off cripples teams, it can break through stall with taunt, willo cripples offense.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-231735884 That replay shows me the brokeness of stallbreaker mew. It beats his lando and clef sure, but it even takes on the scizor, and this is after being knocked off. Mew is really amazing in this role.
And that's just the stallbreaker set.
It can run nasty, sd, bulk up, calm mind, even barrier or amnesia if you're passing (like i said bp is broken). You can run all out attacking sets, scarf, colbur, ebelt, etc. Watching aim's latest video(heatah fajita 2) made me realize just how good this mon is. Sure the typing is bad but it is definitely better than celebi which is in A-, and has the same sort of splashability as rotom-w, which is in A, as opposed to stuff like volcarona sitting in A-. It also has tailwind boom, uturn, volt switch, trick, stealth rocks, defog. It just performs so many roles and certainly belongs higher than where it is."
The issue with celebi is that unless it's used specifically to beat keldeo (which just fell from S) mew does the job better. 4x weakness to bug is pretty annoying and weakness to fire/ice/fly outweighs the resistance to water/electric imo (grass resistance ignored since who uses that as an attacking type. Checking serp, fine but meh overall)
The weaknesses to decent attacking types certainly outweigh the benefits most of the time, which is why mew is better
 
eh w/e I made a mistake and I'll admit that I did type that in a hurry but no excuses for that b/c it truly was a mistake of mine.


Pls bro. Does lure Celebi ring a bell? Yanno, the one that runs Ancient Power, Earth Power, Leaf Storm/Giga Drain and a filler move? It specifcally lures in those threats and bops them and Celebi is versatile as all hell and deserves the A- rank it stays in b/c it can Swords pass Nasty pass pivot be a cleric have healing wish support be a good attacker Calm Mind pass lure in threats that come in on it and hell I've used Coba Berry (that's the one that works on flying iirc) Ancient Power Celebi to lure in Talonflame because my team had a problem for it and it's an excellent glue mon that can fill in many different roles on a team and prove to be an excellent pivot and tank while having the expansive movepool it has to be able to benefit your team by using lure sets and still have utility llike baton pass and stuff to be able to help your team and you're serverely underrating it while not even acknowledging that is learns twave and stuff to fuck with some of its checks like talonflame and stuff so you're completely ignoring the versatility that celebi provied to a team that makes it such a good glue mon and while it's typing is a double edged sword it has ample amounts of switchins and being able to wall common mons and 100/100/100 bulk is respectable and it can take some x2 hits pretty easily and make some threats cry and not want to switch in ebcause of shit like twave coba ancient power colbur hp fire (or fighting if u roll like that) occa earth power and all of that stuff but the fact that you're not acknowledging how versatile it is really pisses me off.

sorry if i came off as rude, welcome to smogon.
That was the one I was referring to, yes. As soon as an opponent sees the Life Orb damage, they aren't going to want to take the risk of switching into Celebi, so they force it out with someone like M-Alt, Clef, or M-Eye It's not a bad mon at all, and I'm not trying to say it is. It's just I have some concerns with how the meta is adapting. And thank you. And thesecondbest, yea, maybe that's what I was trying to say instead of Celebi to B+. Probably would have been better to back that up instead.
 
I don't want to drag the shedninja discussion any longer but I don't think any bulky water types or jellicent could done a better job in the replay I posted earlier on. The team had a mega manectric which most water types don't want to face and shed managed to finish manectric off, It managed to wall starmie which was not able to get rid of the rocks and shedninja also weaken the opposing team with will o wisp and killed of weavile since shedninja held the focus sash.

Still supporting shed to D rank.
 

bludz

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Guys Shedinja is not good enough for D rank simply based on how little it can actually do. Yes it walls quite a few things but with 5 weaknesses, susceptibility to status and sandstorm, it has kinda garbage longevity anyway and is not that powerful offensively. Also seriously replays should be provided for unranked -> ranked nominations. I know I'm not a part of the VR team but speaking on strengths and weaknesses of a mon doesn't really discern its niche and whether it's viable or not. ben gay provided replays for his nominations and I know he wants others to do the same.

When E rank is implemented, maybe Shedinja will fit there.
 
That was the one I was referring to, yes. As soon as an opponent sees the Life Orb damage, they aren't going to want to take the risk of switching into Celebi, so they force it out with someone like M-Alt, Clef, or M-Eye It's not a bad mon at all, and I'm not trying to say it is. It's just I have some concerns with how the meta is adapting. And thank you. And thesecondbest, yea, maybe that's what I was trying to say instead of Celebi to B+. Probably would have been better to back that up instead.
I never mentioned Life Orb. At all. Lure sets use EXPERT BELT or one of the berries. Please read my whole post and notice how I never mentioned Life Orb at all and I actually mentioned stuff like Twave which fits on defensive sets and like I said Celebi is versatile, I'll name a few moves that it can use effectively. Giga Drain, Leaf Storm, Heal Bell, Ancient Power, HP FIre, Earth Power, Stealth Rock, Toxic, Baton Pass, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Calm Mind, Healing Wish, Dual Screens, Magic Coat, Perish Song, Recover, Seed Bomb, Shadow Ball, Leech Seed, Substitute, Trick, Toxic, U-Turn, Future Sight, Rain Dance. holybujeezus that's a lot of moves. It's versatile af and you're ignoring that and I know it's not bad and I know that you're not saying it's bad but the metagame hasn't really changed much to it in all honesty besides Weavile but like I've said berries bro, Celebi can adapt to the metagame with it's many versatile sets and succeed pretty well with most of them in the hands of a good palyer.
 
I support Shed to D rank because of the way it easily grabs momentum for any team it's on. However I don't have much experience using it so I' going to tag Hogg to talk about Sheddy and whether he believes it should be ranked as I know he used a pretty effective Shedinja stall team for the Dark Horse project.
 

Valmanway

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Yeah, I'm just completely against Shedinja being anywhere on this viability list. Sure, Wonder Guard means it's only hit by 5 types in the entire game, but Shedinja's SOOO vulnerable to so much. Hazards make Rapid Spin/Defog support mandatory at all times, sand makes it impossible for Shedinja to stay in, burn and poison are literally death, Mold Breaker overrules Wonder Guard entirely, and some of its weaknesses, Fire, Dark, Flying, and Rock, are very common offensive types in OU that make Shedinja's niche near useless. Plus, Shedinja has no Speed outside of Shadow Sneak, so Shedinja will often be forced out against some foes that it COULD have KOed and will thus kill a good deal of your momentum if not all of it entirely. Its power is also a problem, as base 90 Attack just isn't enough to deal sizable damage, and Swords Dance just doesn't work for it when it can easily be forced out. Long story short, Shedinja needs way too much support to switch in even when it's just to revenge kill, it dies to all passive damage, and it can very easily lose momentum unless you're literally godlike with predicting. Keep Shedinja unranked, please.

(Though Final Gambit Shedinja is hilarious. Just saying.)
 
I'm going to chime in on the Shedinja discussion real quick, 'cause I'm actually kinda intrigued by it. It also makes me want to try out Shedinja myself to see how it fares. Just based on theorymoning, I am going to assume that Protect is a very viable option to scout for coverage that could kill it. Similarly, I am going to assume that Safety Goggles is an option over Focus Sash in OU simply because it is rather easy to scout for coverage that could kill it with Protect, while sandstorm is very common and hard counters Shedinja. Therefore, I am going to be basing what I will say around the following set:

Shedinja @ Safety Goggles / Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Protect / Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass / Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- X-Scissor / Toxic

When I look at Shedinja, the first thing that strikes me is the sheer utility that it gives to defensively oriented VoltTurn teams and stall teams. Wonder Guard is a gorgeous ability for anything to have, and Shedinja puts it to fine use with Baton Pass and Protect to scout and pivot around. Generally speaking, you will be using Shedinja to pivot about in a similar way to AV Tornadus-T, except that it is more defensively oriented due to Wonder Guard. It is actually very capable of hard walling a large portion of the metagame, with scouting using Protect being a big part of how it plays. Having made a basic on-spot analysis, I am going to list what look to me like the pros and cons of using Shedinja:

Pros:
  • Hard walls a big portion of the metagame with Wonder Guard
  • Is capable of crippling physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp
  • Acts as a great pivot for defensively-oriented teams
  • "Offensive" presence for stall
  • Capable of effectively scouting with Protect
  • Great stalling ability due to what it walls
  • Checks sandstorm well with Safety Goggles
  • Capable of taking out weakened Pokemon with Shadow Sneak
  • Shuts down aspects of balanced and defensive playstyles
Cons:
  • Shredded by hazards, making Magic Bounce+Defog/Spin in conjunction mandatory support
  • OHKOed by burn and toxic
  • Weak to five common attacking types (including dark (i.e. Knock Off)), making it very reliant on scouting and note-taking right through the match
  • Literally can't take any one hit
  • Weak to both of the primary sandstorm setter's STABs
  • Setup fodder for Talonflame and Mega Charizard X if it doesn't carry Toxic
  • Complete Pursuit bait
  • Struggles v.s. offense
Overall, I feel like it will be an interesting 'mon to try out. Based on theorymonning alone, I'd say that D fits it perfectly. However, this is just theorymon. Therefore, I am going to try it before I make any final personal decisions regarding it :)
I think this is a good post thats sums up Shedinja pretty nicely. The only thing you forgot to mention is that Hone Claws (boosts attack and accuracy by 1) is a viable move for Shedinja because it can be used along with Baton Pass, unlike Swords Dance. I'm pretty sure that a Shedinja on a team built by someone who runs one of those team building workshop forums had this move so I figued it's worth a mention. Personally I think a set of Baton Pass, Hone Claws, Shadow Sneak, and Will-O-Wisp is Shedinja's most viable set but it certainly has a few other options. Also Safety Goggles is probably Shedinja's best choice for an item unless you are running it with Charizard Y or on a rain team.
 


Toxicroak B- -> B

Let me start out by saying I love Toxicroak, but I won't be using any bias.

Toxicroak is a pretty odd choice in OU, slower speed tier, only decent attack, quad weakness to Psychic, but it does have it's good points. For one it's probably one of the best offensive checks to Belly Drum Azumarill, or Azumarill in general because of it's ability Dry Skin. It also is one of the few physical Pokémon that don't care about Scald. Dry Skin is such a useful ability against Rain teams and against bulky waters. Of course some bulky waters beat it like Slowbro because of it's psychic typing and it's bulk but most bulky waters (notably it walls crocune and crobro) won't enjoy it on your team. Although having a weakness to three common offensive types, - flying, fire and ground - with a quad weakness to a less common one - psychic- is disheartening, but having an immunity - water - and six resistances - bug, poison, fighting, grass, dark, and rock - is also giving it a somewhat decent time for switch ins, it doesn't have the best bulk - 83/65/65 - but given a free switch via Volt/Turn or Dry Pass can be beneficial as this is the best physical poison type you can find - don't quote me on that pls -. It has a boosting option in Swords Dance and a powerful STAB in Gunk Shot, also Cross Chop if you roll like that. It has access to Bullet Punch - which is useless for fairies because Poison STAB, only decent on Diancie weak teams -, and Sucker Punch - which is a required move on croak imo -, Drain Punch is decent too. Although that's all well and good, it's... somewhat mediocre offensive stats of 106/86/85 make it somewhat weak before a Swords Dance. It is also forced out by Altaria after a Dragon Dance (but seriously, that's no surprise) and a few fairies have ways to get around it (flamethrower clef, azumarill just play roughs, fire blast and earthquake on altaria) but given a 1v1 situation it wins almost every time.

I also think that Toxicroak is better than some 'mons like Bronzong. Tangrowth, Tyrantrum, and Mandibuzz for teams because it blanket checks so much and can turn an Azu sweep into your own sweep. I also believe it fits in with Hawlucha, Scolipede, Slowking, and Tentacruel, Hawlucha and Scolipede has the same general effectiveness as Toxicorak after an SD (bar speed) and Slowking and Tentacruel are good for checkign some high tier threats like MMetagross Clefable Keldeo and Azumarill, which Toxicroak does all that bar MMetagross.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237046309 Here's a replay I have, I 6-0ed him but I know he's a good player, he's a friend of mine that has beaten me a lot. Also ignore the chat, we had some idle conversation and it might be a little offensive to some people heh.

Edit: Please don't menton obvious shit like 'gets forced out by talonflame' because everybody knows that.

AraEdit: Keldeo was moved to A+.

Me Edit: O. Didn't know that. Need to start keeping track of this stuff.
 
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Toxicroak B- -> B

Let me start out by saying I love Toxicroak, but I won't be using any bias.

Toxicroak is a pretty odd choice in OU, slower speed tier, only decent attack, quad weakness to Psychic, but it does have it's good points. For one it's probably one of the best offensive checks to Belly Drum Azumarill, or Azumarill in general because of it's ability Dry Skin. It also is one of the few physical Pokémon that don't care about Scald. Dry Skin is such a useful ability against Rain teams and against bulky waters. Of course some bulky waters beat it like Slowbro because of it's psychic typing and it's bulk but most bulky waters (notably it walls crocune and crobro) won't enjoy it on your team. Although having a weakness to three common offensive types, - flying, fire and ground - with a quad weakness to a less common one - psychic- is disheartening, but having an immunity - water - and six resistances - bug, poison, fighting, grass, dark, and rock - is also giving it a somewhat decent time for switch ins, it doesn't have the best bulk - 83/65/65 - but given a free switch via Volt/Turn or Dry Pass can be beneficial as this is the best physical poison type you can find - don't quote me on that pls -. It has a boosting option in Swords Dance and a powerful STAB in Gunk Shot, also Cross Chop if you roll like that. It has access to Bullet Punch - which is useless for fairies because Poison STAB, only decent on Diancie weak teams -, and Sucker Punch - which is a required move on croak imo -, Drain Punch is decent too. Although that's all well and good, it's... somewhat mediocre offensive stats of 106/86/85 make it somewhat weak before a Swords Dance. It is also forced out by Altaria after a Dragon Dance (but seriously, that's no surprise) and a few fairies have ways to get around it (flamethrower clef, azumarill just play roughs, fire blast and earthquake on altaria) but given a 1v1 situation it wins almost every time.

I also think that Toxicroak is better than some 'mons like Bronzong. Tangrowth, Tyrantrum, and Mandibuzz for teams because it blanket checks so much and can turn an Azu sweep into your own sweep. I also believe it fits in with Hawlucha, Scolipede, Slowking, and Tentacruel, Hawlucha and Scolipede has the same general effectiveness as Toxicorak after an SD (bar speed) and Slowking and Tentacruel are good for checkign some high tier threats like MMetagross Clefable Keldeo and Azumarill, which Toxicroak does all that bar MMetagross.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237046309 Here's a replay I have, I 6-0ed him but I know he's a good player, he's a friend of mine that has beaten me a lot. Also ignore the chat, we had some idle conversation and it might be a little offensive to some people heh.

Edit: Please don't menton obvious shit like 'gets forced out by talonflame' because everybody knows that.

AraEdit: Keldeo was moved to A+.
I second this. I feel that Toxicroak is underrated at the moment, but with things like Swift Swim Kabutops or Specs Omastar, it is a good check to the ever-present rain teams. It also fits on both sand and rain thanks to its utility in Dry Skin.

It's also not a one trick pony, it also has a usable nasty plot set, and Vacuum Wave, Sludge Wave, etc. to run to bypass some of its usual checks and counters, it also happens to be one of the more reliable checks to Keldeo:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 147-174 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO

Since Keldeo relies on scald to be able to BS its way through its checks.

It sits at base 85 speed, which is meh, but it has the benefit of being able to outrun all support Mega Altaria sets and Mega Altaria that have not set up with dragon dance.
 

Hogg

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I haven't used Shedinja in OU in some time - last time I played that team regularly was just after the Greninja suspect. I did use it somewhat during the Aegi suspect, and it remained fairly successful, but some changes to the tier did cause it a bit of trouble.

So in general, I do think Shedinja can shine on stall teams. If you are able to aggressively keep hazards off your side of the field (which has been way easier for stall since the release of Sableite), it can be a 100% stop to a lot of really big threats. It stops, for example, most Mega-Lop and Mega-Metagross sets, plus a lot of dangerous stallbreakers such as CM Landorus, Mega-Gardevoir (watch out for WoW, but WoW means that Gardy lacks Taunt, and therefore loses to Chansey) and most Keldeo sets (including SubCM, which otherwise decimates stall). Also, perhaps the biggest pro, it completely blocks both Volt Switch and U-turn - and any stall player can tell you that something that can block momentum from VoltTurn is worth its weight in gold.

(For the record, I think Focus Sash is always better than Safety Goggles, as it lets you escape Pursuit, and you can pop your sash to get an emergency WoW off against a threatening sweeper.)

Finally, there's something to be said about the pressure Shedinja applies just from team preview. A lot of players see it hanging out in the back and become obsessed with getting hazards on the field. If you're playing a team heavily focused on hazard control, that tends to put things on your terms.

Yes, there's a lot of passive damage around - Rocky Helmet and Garchomp/Ferrothorn keep you from spamming contact moves, hazards mean Shedinja is useless until you can clear them off your field, and Tyranitar and Hippo are pains in the ass (although the latter two are not as bad as you'd think - stall can usually stall out sand turns, and you're usually doubling out immediately with Shedinja anyhow). It needs a TON of team support to work - to the point where you literally need to build your entire team around it. That said, it can pay dividends if you do so.

I don't have a ton of replays showing off Shedinja in this tier, but here are a couple:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-203638477 - BP team just straight up loses to Shedinja.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202362697 - Sheddy showing off a lot here, blocking momentum from Volt Switch and in general just pressuring the hell out of his team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202237733 - Low ladder game, but Shedinja definitely puts in good work.

EDIT: Found a few more replays...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-199732516
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-199706658
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-199420898
 
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Omastar should always be one sub rank below the other Swift Swimmers because it requires more team support than Kingdra, M-Swampert, and Kabutops imo. It's only niche really is the Specs set, and though Hydro Pump hits stupidly hard under rain, being locked into a move (Hydro or Knock Off usually) can make things difficult for our Lord Helix. Omastar also 100% NEEDS rain to function because it's slow as balls and wants all the power it can get. Speaking of its speed, Modest only hits 209/418 under rain, which leaves Omastar significantly more prone to scarfers (Jolly Drill and above - that's a lot) and the 145+ megas than King/Pert/Tops. Furthermore, outside of rain, Omastar isn't doing anything to offensive teams and even struggles against some slower builds, while Kingdra, Pert, and Kabutops all manage to maintain a good amount of their offensive presence even if rain isn't up by virtue of their decent speed (Tops/Dra) or bulk/typing (Pert). So ultimately, I don't think Omastar should move up unless the other SS'ers move up, and I don't foresee that happening atm, so Omastar should stay B imo.
Frankly, I've used Omastar a lot and it requires no more team support than Kabu or Swampert. Being locked into Hydro Pump isn't bad at all considering that it 2HKOs most things under rain, and nothing really wants to take a boosted Hydro anyway. It's speed isn't an issue considering that its primary job is wallbreaking, and is generally paired with a faster Swimmer like Kingdra, who can outspeed the unboosted meta under rain bar Ninjask (lol). While, granted, Omastar struggles outside of rain somewhat, there isn't really a realistic scenario in which this would happen. Omastar if you look in my original post has many pros over the others and should be on the same level.
 
Why are we going on about topics that are borderline irrelevant when we already have enough problems on our own hands with the current slate? either way am told me to appease the masses so while i'm at it, might as well make a few nominations of my own.

Banette to C

apparently, someone just flat out said this was that garbage of a mega and threw it away, never to see the light of day. i took it upon myself to dig through this trash heap and on my way, found some pile of goodies lying within. idk bout u guys, but you're really sleeping on this mon if u just casted it away as complete garbage. the very niche this provides for a team is exclusive to solely itself, and it's a fantastic one at that. the set i ran would be destiny bond, taunt, wisp and shadow claw. taunt and dbond are mandatory, but feel free to experiment with it's other moveslots. its role as a stallbreaker might be difficult to grasp, so i'll spell out a scenario. say that i have a full health banette on the field while the opponent has a raikou. raik goes for shadow ball as banette goes for sclaw, both doing bout half to each other. next turn i go for priority dbond as he goes for volt, leaving me close to red. raik switches to azumarill. destiny bond is still in effect before i attack, and he doesn't want to lose azumarill since he may need it for my landorus in the back, so he switches out as i go for sclaw on his ferro switch. i taunt it to prevent it from setting up hazards or going for any leech seed shenanigans and i wisp next turn as he switches out. are you getting it now? a well played banette can completely shut down an opponent's gameplay as it will 100% at least bring one kill along with it, if not severely crippling the opposing team in the process. now imagine having stealth rocks and 1 or 2 layers of spikes, added to the fact that banette is a really good anti-hazard removal mon with priority taunt and a ghost typing to spin block. it can even revenge kill a mon that has already set up and /or can sweep your team, since an altaria would be forced to attack you with taunt, or just repeatedly going for dbond then atking it till it drops. this niche is invaluable for hazard-stack hyper offense, giving mons like scarfsharp and gengar a run for their money(they are good at maintaining hazards, but much less flexible than banette). the one real downside to using this is getting the chance to mega evo in the first place, since it doesn't immediately acquire prankster pre-mega. shouldn't really be a problem though when investing in hp and defenses gives it much needed survivability. unfortunately i was only able to salvage one replay i had, but i think the above explanation is reasoning enough.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-57141
I see your logic here, but C might be pushing it. I feel like Mega Banette has too much opportunity cost for what it does, and its ability to take down something relies too heavily on Destiny Bond, which Gengar arguably does better due to its offensive prowess and ability to wreak havoc outside of sacrificing itself. Heck, even Mega Houndoom and Mega Shark can net some surprise KOes with Bond, Destiny Bond after they've already swept through part of a team and done some damage. Sure you have Prankster Will-O-Wisp, but aren't you getting that on turn one with Mega Sableye? Plus, Mega Banette is still too frail to abuse the effective defensive boost from Will-O-Wisp, so the point is moot. If it even gets a ranking, I feel like D would be fitting, but I still am not convinced that it has earned a spot. I saw the replay, you Burned an excadrill, took out a heavily weakened target with shadow claw, and finished a Gyarados with destiny bond (it was also futilely clicking natural gift when it had other options), but I feel as if Gengar or Mega Manectric could have done those roles better, destiny bond only has 8 PP at most, so it is disadvantageous to continually click it, as one can exploit your repeated clicking by setting up in your face or stacking hazards if you try to lead with it. Yes you have taunt, but it's not deterring something from OHKOing you the turn you try to taunt. It's just like the case of Bisharp's sucker punch.
 
The lasttime a made a nomination, it was completely shut down, but now I want to discuss something I want to discuss for some time now. And that topic is Zapdos to B+. Zapdos is forgotten in the current meta, but has unique niches that make me want to nominate it to B+. First of all, Zapdos is one of the few Deffogers that can, with some good play, beat Bisharp, which is nice. Also most of the Pokemon who check the Defog set fall victim to the SubToxic set, which can PP stall most Stall and Balance teams, even though it is not that good against offense. Another niche it has is Volt Switch which can give its teammates a nice switch while dealing respectable damage. Also, the Choice Scarf set, while sort of outclassed by Thundy-T, is pretty good, due to its better bulk.
 

blunder

the bobby fischer of pokemon
is a Tiering Contributoris the Smogon Tour Season 25 Champion
The lasttime a made a nomination, it was completely shut down, but now I want to discuss something I want to discuss for some time now. And that topic is Zapdos to B+. Zapdos is forgotten in the current meta, but has unique niches that make me want to nominate it to B+. First of all, Zapdos is one of the few Deffogers that can, with some good play, beat Bisharp, which is nice. Also most of the Pokemon who check the Defog set fall victim to the SubToxic set, which can PP stall most Stall and Balance teams, even though it is not that good against offense. Another niche it has is Volt Switch which can give its teammates a nice switch while dealing respectable damage. Also, the Choice Scarf set, while sort of outclassed by Thundy-T, is pretty good, due to its better bulk.
i think one of the current problems with zapdos is that it has a much harder time getting off defog in this meta while also being hard to just throw on any team. while it can check tornadus-t, landorus-i (thought this will probably be leaving soon, and other things like scizor and talonflame, the stealth rock weakness on a hazard removal pokemon makes it difficult to find a good chance to switch zapdos in and get it off while also keeping healthy enough to check said threats. it gets worn down by a lot of the things it has to switch into and pretty much has the sole purpose of checking some of the physical flying types as well as mega gyarados. to add to that it also gives up momentum easily with thunderbolt and heatwave doing little damage to most things that want to switch in such as clefable or altaria that can easily use zapdos as set up fodder. other mons that can remove hazards like starmie / lati are much easier to fit on teams. they may not check the mons zapdos does but they don't give every set up mon free switchins and they can keep up momentum, while zapdos gives it away as you're forced to roost to continue to check the things you have it for. i think the defog set is outclassed and not as effective in the current meta, and that zapdos is better off running something tailormade to distinguish itself from the superior hazard removers, such as a subroost set with support from toxic spikes along with pressure.
 
Can we just put TFlame in the concluded section already? It's pretty much never leaving A+ rank lol.

It's basically one of the many staple pokes of Gen 6 (other two being Aegi and Gren, rip in pepperoni) and I don't think i need to tell you all how good this thing is. two solid SD sets, Banded, Bulk Up pretty much guarantee this thing to do work on whatever team you place it in. It's one of the best revenge killers in the tier, by far. Stealth Rock however, fucks this thing hard. Because of this we can pretty much safely say that its never getting raised to S rank.

Keep Talonflame A+ Rank always and forever.
 


Toxicroak B- -> B

Let me start out by saying I love Toxicroak, but I won't be using any bias.

Toxicroak is a pretty odd choice in OU, slower speed tier, only decent attack, quad weakness to Psychic, but it does have it's good points. For one it's probably one of the best offensive checks to Belly Drum Azumarill, or Azumarill in general because of it's ability Dry Skin. It also is one of the few physical Pokémon that don't care about Scald. Dry Skin is such a useful ability against Rain teams and against bulky waters. Of course some bulky waters beat it like Slowbro because of it's psychic typing and it's bulk but most bulky waters (notably it walls crocune and crobro) won't enjoy it on your team. Although having a weakness to three common offensive types, - flying, fire and ground - with a quad weakness to a less common one - psychic- is disheartening, but having an immunity - water - and six resistances - bug, poison, fighting, grass, dark, and rock - is also giving it a somewhat decent time for switch ins, it doesn't have the best bulk - 83/65/65 - but given a free switch via Volt/Turn or Dry Pass can be beneficial as this is the best physical poison type you can find - don't quote me on that pls -. It has a boosting option in Swords Dance and a powerful STAB in Gunk Shot, also Cross Chop if you roll like that. It has access to Bullet Punch - which is useless for fairies because Poison STAB, only decent on Diancie weak teams -, and Sucker Punch - which is a required move on croak imo -, Drain Punch is decent too. Although that's all well and good, it's... somewhat mediocre offensive stats of 106/86/85 make it somewhat weak before a Swords Dance. It is also forced out by Altaria after a Dragon Dance (but seriously, that's no surprise) and a few fairies have ways to get around it (flamethrower clef, azumarill just play roughs, fire blast and earthquake on altaria) but given a 1v1 situation it wins almost every time.

I also think that Toxicroak is better than some 'mons like Bronzong. Tangrowth, Tyrantrum, and Mandibuzz for teams because it blanket checks so much and can turn an Azu sweep into your own sweep. I also believe it fits in with Hawlucha, Scolipede, Slowking, and Tentacruel, Hawlucha and Scolipede has the same general effectiveness as Toxicorak after an SD (bar speed) and Slowking and Tentacruel are good for checkign some high tier threats like MMetagross Clefable Keldeo and Azumarill, which Toxicroak does all that bar MMetagross.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237046309 Here's a replay I have, I 6-0ed him but I know he's a good player, he's a friend of mine that has beaten me a lot. Also ignore the chat, we had some idle conversation and it might be a little offensive to some people heh.

Edit: Please don't menton obvious shit like 'gets forced out by talonflame' because everybody knows that.

AraEdit: Keldeo was moved to A+.

Me Edit: O. Didn't know that. Need to start keeping track of this stuff.
I thoroughly agree with this as I have vouched for Toxicroak to rise to B a few times in the past. Toxicroak also serves as a great offensive check to most of the fairies in the tier. Clefable, Azumarill, & Sylveon won't appreciate a Gunk Shot. Non-DD Mega Altaria are outsped & wrecked by Gunk Shot. The only fairy that could reliably take it on is Mega Diancie (unless you use the rare Bullet Punch I guess). Toxicroak, believe it or not, is also a bit of an offensive check to +2 Bisharp.

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 198-234 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And with a little bit of prior damage, Latios can go down to a Sucker Punch

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 237-281 (79.2 - 93.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Toxicroak is a great yet underrated mon and I believe it should finally rise to B.
 
I'd like to comment that celebi is way more useful than Mew in this meta. It should definitely not be leaving the A ranks any time soon. With it's resistances being as useful as they are he pretty much gets free switch ins/setups etc. on a huge portion of the meta. I think sub, BP is crazy good right now for supporting wallbreakers and sweepers to ensure they get free hits behind a substitute and more opportunities to break down opposing team. He also still has great offensive capability with a good movepool and solid stats. Although Mew has all of that as well, his typing isn't as useful and he also can't absorb status like celebi can thanks to natural cure. Makes life a real pain in the ass for stall as well as things like thundurus or klefki not being able to actually status anything for good.
 
I'd like to comment that celebi is way more useful than Mew in this meta. It should definitely not be leaving the A ranks any time soon. With it's resistances being as useful as they are he pretty much gets free switch ins/setups etc. on a huge portion of the meta. I think sub, BP is crazy good right now for supporting wallbreakers and sweepers to ensure they get free hits behind a substitute and more opportunities to break down opposing team. He also still has great offensive capability with a good movepool and solid stats. Although Mew has all of that as well, his typing isn't as useful and he also can't absorb status like celebi can thanks to natural cure. Makes life a real pain in the ass for stall as well as things like thundurus or klefki not being able to actually status anything for good.
I think Celebi is kind of being over exaggerated in this thread for maintaining some supposed viability and granted my own personal opinion isn't exactly warranting a drop I wouldn't go as far to say Celebi is more useful in the meta the way you're describing it. Having Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, and Taunt alone gives Mew an enormous self and team advantage over Celebi. It can more or less hinder all sorts of teams and even step in the face of threats like non Calm Mind Landorus while removing Life Orb or just mitigating recovery through Taunt, passing around burns, etc. Mews typing stops it from being food from everything that is hindered as part of being a grass type. Celebi can't handle Ice types like Kyurem-B well or have the luxury of crippling it like Mew can, its matchup against Heatran is relying on running Earth Power so you're missing all those useful tools that Celebi has for utility, Torn-T absolutely sucks for Celebi, etc. I think Celebi is one of the lesser A- ranked mons right now as opposed to Mew who definitely is an A- ranked mon at this moment and kind of putting it a higher plateau than Mew is not true to me.
 
Celebi isnt honestly as good atm as it was a few months ago and Id be much more comfortable with a drop tbh. The current meta pretty much revolves around mons which either setup on Celebi or outright destroy it and in terms of metagame trends, Weavile, Kyurem-B, Torn-T, scizor and many more mons which all destroy Celebi are all super common at the moment. Its typing is also a huge issue, Grass/Psychic is piss poor both offensively and defensively and while celebi has a pretty big movepool, it just lacks the slots to truly be effective without sacrificing a necessary move. Its a shame that Celebi has dropped so significantly in viability because it's still a pretty fun mon to use but too often is Celebi deadweight and setup fodder. That's not to say it doesnt have heaps of positives but it just gives way too many chances for big threats to get free switches that I avoid using it as much as possible while building.

I know this post is super incoherent but I just wanted to get some of my thoughts down
 
I think Poliwrath deserves D Rank for being able to full on counter top threats such as Weavile, Bisharp, TTar and MGyara while also having an easy time dealing with most Keldeo and LandoT sets.

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def
Nature: Relaxed
- Scald
- Circle Throw
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

What makes this different than other RestTalk mons with no reliable recovery is that most 'mons cannot take advantage of it as they risk either getting burnt or shuffled, so no free switches or setting up on it. It also works well on spike stacking teams.

I know this will probably get laughed at, but think about it; a 'mon resisting SR able to wall Weavile, Bisharp and MGyara while also providing the utility of shuffling and spreading burns in a metagame where spikes are so good at least deserves to be on the bottom of the viability list.

I hope some popular user makes this nom one day so it will be put on D-Rank.
 
I think Poliwrath deserves D Rank for being able to full on counter top threats such as Weavile, Bisharp, TTar and MGyara while also having an easy time dealing with most Keldeo and LandoT sets.

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def
Nature: Relaxed
- Scald
- Circle Throw
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

What makes this different than other RestTalk mons with no reliable recovery is that most 'mons cannot take advantage of it as they risk either getting burnt or shuffled, so no free switches or setting up on it. It also works well on spike stacking teams.

I know this will probably get laughed at, but think about it; a 'mon resisting SR able to wall Weavile, Bisharp and MGyara while also providing the utility of shuffling and spreading burns in a metagame where spikes are so good at least deserves to be on the bottom of the viability list.

I hope some popular user makes this nom one day so it will be put on D-Rank.
This seems like a nice threat, but you should probably show a replay if you want to show its effectiveness in a match and get it ranked.

e: I'll try it out on the ladder, and I'll support it with some replays if i can.
 
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