Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[FaZeBoo]

I can understand that mega houndoom has plenty of viable checks, but if you can manage to fit in a handy dandy move called sludge bomb, the number of checks is quite literally cut in half. Diancie, Altaria, and non AV azumarill usually just stay in, overconfident, only to kiss the ground in one move. Keldeo and Ttar are very valid, common, and threatening checks, which is why mega houndoom shouldn't go too high (not higher than B really) But It has its options.
I wouldn't really say i ts "extremely pressed to have an effective fourth moveslot" because the bread and butter is in the first 3 anyway: nasty plot, fire blast, and dark pulse. I don't really know why one would even bother with will-o when houndoom is so frail and has an SR weakness, the best way to play it is bring it in once, set up, and do what you can from there. It's not exactly a hit-and-run mon so will-o is pretty ineffective.
Taunt really only has use in breaking through chansey as the rest of the stall team should be weakened enough so that +2 stabs clean anyway.
The way i see it in this meta, sludge bomb is the way to go to nail overconfident mega altaria, mega diancie, and azumarill. It's not pressed for a 4th moveslot at all.
And ofc 115 base speed is super good and fire/dark stabs are very consistent.
I'm honestly ok wherever it is on the viability ranking, as long as it doesn't fall, but i wanted to clear up some misconceptions mostly.

to add to this, a +2 fire blast does over half to a keldeo coming on a switch.
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 207-244 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 226-267 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Houndoom is very good in this metagame right now, and i believe that B is a good spot for him because of all of the checks and counters proven to appear.

 

[Alfalfa]

There was just some recent discussion regarding Mega Houndoom; let me pull up the quote regarding why it does not deserve a raise:

M-Houndoom doesn't destroy stall what so ever and everything it handles well is in a lot of cases pretty specific and puts an enormous amount of emphasis to mega evolve in the first place. There's a ton of situations where M-Houndooms speed tier prior to mega evolving becomes an enormous hindrance and in some matches it will become total dead weight.

I'd argue that in practice it's even worse than on paper if I'm going to be completely honest to the point that its ranking is totally justified and should not be rising any higher with the amount of megas to choose from and the overrated aspect of beating stuff that is based on a lot of circumstantial scenarios. The idea of unprepared teams becomes a moot point when we consider that we're talking about teams that are focused on the whole idea of preparation in the first place. I don't understand why you put rocks on Heatrans side of the field in those calcs yet forgot to put the one for M-Houndoom putting it in range of any priority user and probably a dead M-Houndoom, which barring Bisharp it's susceptible to every form of priority offense will have due to its typing. M-Houndoom isn't anti-meta more so it's trying to find some legitimate niche when its usage is more or less team specific and a luxury these days. We're also acting like Chansey is some sort of absurd threat in the meta where it becomes a selling point of M-Houndoom in its ability to handle it, hint it's really not that serious and Chansey isn't actually posing some huge amount of threat level in the meta anyways. M-Houndoom needs more team support than people are giving it credit for with all the fat waters, Scarftars, fast paced offensive threats like M-Lopunny and M-Aerodactyl and this only a few of the stuff that can hit it after it mega evolves, which the list goes on even more before it mega evolves and the understanding that its switch in opportunities are found mostly against slower builds and even then teams that are prepped for other meta-game trends will do fine in handling M-Houndoom. It really shouldn't rise at all.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

to add to this, a +2 fire blast does over half to a keldeo coming on a switch.
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 207-244 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 226-267 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Houndoom is very good in this metagame right now, and i believe that B is a good spot for him because of all of the checks and counters proven to appear.

Wrong, because even when it's unboosted
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 288-338 (98.9 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Obviously, Secret Sword and Hydro Pump always OHKOes Mega Houndoom.

In other words, keldeo is a hard heck of Mega Houndoom. Also:

-It's not right to assume that a Pokemon is at +2 in many situation, specially gaainst M Houndoom. M Houndoom doesn't have the defenses, the typing nor the ability to take hits (actually, iis frail).
-M Hundoom doesn't usually un Sludge Bomb because it requires atleast Taunt (or Will-o-wisp, although it's not a great user) to be a true stallbreaker. The main reason M houndoom is in B- is because it's a stallbreaker.

 

[Dilwar]

I agree with the nom for Megachomp to B/B+. It definitely has a solid niche and thrives in a meta where balance and/or fatter teams are really common. There is no denying this mon is such a massive threat to the dominant playstyle, so B- is definitely underselling it. Also rofl at trash mons like Mega Beedrill, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Sceptile and Quagsire being ranked above it. I always see this "opportunity cost" to use Mega Garchomp because mega slot xD, yet these mons are ranked above. Wtf does Mega Beedrill even do, dies to any priority against offense, can't wallbreak through any fat cores and just about lacks enough power to pick up the KOs it needs (it's dying if it's not KOing something). Also has trash STABs with hardly good coverage to round it off (yes it gets Drill Run but that does zero to common Steels like Scizor, Ferro, Skarm etc). Idk how this mon's niche can even be ranked higher than Mega Chomp's. Quagsire is still ranked too high imo, it lost its best niche in beating Baton Pass and there are just better bulky waters to use. Mega Sharpedo requires a ridiculous amount of support (needs hazards, prior damage, wearing down checks etc) to even clean late game, and has horrible bulk. Unlike MegaChomp, Mega Shark needs support whereas MegaChomp just appreciates it. Sharpedo is hardly ever putting in work otherwise, other than getting a strong Crunch off or something before dying to a Tackle. I'd expand more but I just wanted to point out how it's ridiculous MegaChomp sits at B- while these mons are ranked higher. The arguments I see for keeping MegaChomp down can easily be applied to these mons so idk why they stay in their ranks. I guess people just forgot about them / don't care enough about the B ranks (everyone always looking at the A ranks). Anyway, I have a nom to make:

Dragonite B+ -> A-

Having used this Pokemon quite a lot to get reqs, I think it's pretty underrated imo. Dragonite is actually really good and can put in work against pretty much any archtype. Against offense, it's Banded Espeed is actually ridiculously good for cleaning up late game or revenge killing in general. I'm specifically a fan of the CB set, the immediate power it provides is fantastic for giving it solid niches in revenging and wallbreaking.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 196-231 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is gauranteed after Thundy takes a round off LO recoil (it's most common item by far). Thundy is really common on offense and just painful to deal with in general, especially if you're using offense yourself. Dnite gives you a good way to kill it without worrying about taking a T-Wave beforehand or just a strong LO Tbolt / HP Ice.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 193-228 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Talonflame, another big threat to offense teams is dealt with nicely by Dnite. You don't have to take a Banded BB to kill it, and you can tank it anyway with Multiscale.

Banded Espeed in general is just really good. It's a great answer to offense teams that need a way to deal with set up sweepers or need strong priority, and at the same time a Dnite slot covers a decent switch in to common threats like Keldeo.

Against fatter teams, Banded Outrage just breaks anything.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 231-273 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 234-276 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 207-244 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think these calcs should explain that nothing that doesn't resist is walling this thing. It's a fantastic wallbreaker. And yeah it's true that Steels and Fairies can stop these, but most don't like taking one or two anyway.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 156-185 (40.5 - 48%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Heatran can't even do anything back either. Other Steels like Skarmory and Ferrothorn are threatened by Fire Punch and it has EQ for those who aren't. You can even run Superpower to lessen the 50/50s, if it even is that.

This is not mentioning its other sets, such as DD which is pretty great considering it has Multiscale, so it can set up fairly easily and put in work at the same power of Choice Band, but with Speed and being able to switch moves. Sp.Def Dragonite is also decent, albeit really rare now, but it just goes to show this Pokemon can be versatile.

TL;DR - Dragonite is versatile enough to be considered A- worthy, and packs a solid niche by giving offense a revenge killer, a wallbreaker, a ground immunity and a Keldeo switch in. It is indeed capable of picking up sweeps too with its DD set, and can belong on fatter teams with the Sp.Def set.

"Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame."

With its DD set and stellar coverage (as well as Espeed to make reveging it harder), it is capable of sweeping a big portion of the meta. It's not so much a supporter but it can be with its bulky set, especially with access to things like Heal Bell. With regards to walling, well it's not really a wall but it is a decent switch in to a top threat in Keldeo. It doesn't really require support to do its niche for revenge killing or wallbreaking, but I guess trapping Steels with the classic DragMag core is nice to ease its job. It does appreciate Stealth Rock removal though but that hardly means much considering your team's gonna pack hazard removal 99% of the time anyway, and it has solid bulk to live the majority of hits after Stealth Rock. This is easily overshadowed though when you look at its positive traits. And yes I know it has flaws since common types like Steel and Fairy can be a pain to it spamming Outrage, but I feel this is a problem keeping it from rank A or A+, rather than pushing it down to B+. As said before though, it can definitely threaten said Steels and Fairies anyway. This mon is really solid but does have some issues holding it back, which is pretty much a perfect definition of A- rank.

 

[Dread Arceus]

I agree with the nom for Megachomp to B/B+. It definitely has a solid niche and thrives in a meta where balance and/or fatter teams are really common. There is no denying this mon is such a massive threat to the dominant playstyle, so B- is definitely underselling it. Also rofl at trash mons like Mega Beedrill, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Sceptile and Quagsire being ranked above it. I always see this "opportunity cost" to use Mega Garchomp because mega slot xD, yet these mons are ranked above. Wtf does Mega Beedrill even do, dies to any priority against offense, can't wallbreak through any fat cores and just about lacks enough power to pick up the KOs it needs (it's dying if it's not KOing something). Also has trash STABs with hardly good coverage to round it off (yes it gets Drill Run but that does zero to common Steels like Scizor, Ferro, Skarm etc). Idk how this mon's niche can even be ranked higher than Mega Chomp's. Quagsire is still ranked too high imo, it lost its best niche in beating Baton Pass and there are just better bulky waters to use. Mega Sharpedo requires a ridiculous amount of support (needs hazards, prior damage, wearing down checks etc) to even clean late game, and has horrible bulk. Unlike MegaChomp, Mega Shark needs support whereas MegaChomp just appreciates it. Sharpedo is hardly ever putting in work otherwise, other than getting a strong Crunch off or something before dying to a Tackle. I'd expand more but I just wanted to point out how it's ridiculous MegaChomp sits at B- while these mons are ranked higher. The arguments I see for keeping MegaChomp down can easily be applied to these mons so idk why they stay in their ranks. I guess people just forgot about them / don't care enough about the B ranks (everyone always looking at the A ranks). Anyway, I have a nom to make:

Dragonite B+ -> A-

Having used this Pokemon quite a lot to get reqs, I think it's pretty underrated imo. Dragonite is actually really good and can put in work against pretty much any archtype. Against offense, it's Banded Espeed is actually ridiculously good for cleaning up late game or revenge killing in general. I'm specifically a fan of the CB set, the immediate power it provides is fantastic for giving it solid niches in revenging and wallbreaking.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 196-231 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is gauranteed after Thundy takes a round off LO recoil (it's most common item by far). Thundy is really common on offense and just painful to deal with in general, especially if you're using offense yourself. Dnite gives you a good way to kill it without worrying about taking a T-Wave beforehand or just a strong LO Tbolt / HP Ice.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 193-228 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Talonflame, another big threat to offense teams is dealt with nicely by Dnite. You don't have to take a Banded BB to kill it, and you can tank it anyway with Multiscale.

Banded Espeed in general is just really good. It's a great answer to offense teams that need a way to deal with set up sweepers or need strong priority, and at the same time a Dnite slot covers a decent switch in to common threats like Keldeo.

Against fatter teams, Banded Outrage just breaks anything.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 231-273 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 234-276 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 207-244 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think these calcs should explain that nothing that doesn't resist is walling this thing. It's a fantastic wallbreaker. And yeah it's true that Steels and Fairies can stop these, but most don't like taking one or two anyway.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 156-185 (40.5 - 48%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Heatran can't even do anything back either. Other Steels like Skarmory and Ferrothorn are threatened by Fire Punch and it has EQ for those who aren't. You can even run Superpower to lessen the 50/50s, if it even is that.

This is not mentioning its other sets, such as DD which is pretty great considering it has Multiscale, so it can set up fairly easily and put in work at the same power of Choice Band, but with Speed and being able to switch moves. Sp.Def Dragonite is also decent, albeit really rare now, but it just goes to show this Pokemon can be versatile.

TL;DR - Dragonite is versatile enough to be considered A- worthy, and packs a solid niche by giving offense a revenge killer, a wallbreaker, a ground immunity and a Keldeo switch in. It is indeed capable of picking up sweeps too with its DD set, and can belong on fatter teams with the Sp.Def set.

"Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame."

With its DD set and stellar coverage (as well as Espeed to make reveging it harder), it is capable of sweeping a big portion of the meta. It's not so much a supporter but it can be with its bulky set, especially with access to things like Heal Bell. With regards to walling, well it's not really a wall but it is a decent switch in to a top threat in Keldeo. It doesn't really require support to do its niche for revenge killing or wallbreaking, but I guess trapping Steels with the classic DragMag core is nice to ease its job. It does appreciate Stealth Rock removal though but that hardly means much considering your team's gonna pack hazard removal 99% of the time anyway, and it has solid bulk to live the majority of hits after Stealth Rock. This is easily overshadowed though when you look at its positive traits. And yes I know it has flaws since common types like Steel and Fairy can be a pain to it spamming Outrage, but I feel this is a problem keeping it from rank A or A+, rather than pushing it down to B+. As said before though, it can definitely threaten said Steels and Fairies anyway. This mon is really solid but does have some issues holding it back, which is pretty much a perfect definition of A- rank.

I could make a lengthy reply to this about how it wants more moveslots, how it has trouble with common Steels and Fairies do to aforementioned lack of moveslots, its massive competition with significantly better Mega DD'rs, or its reliance on Stealth Rock to not exist; or I could just say this:
Mega Altaria.

 

[Dilwar]

I could make a lengthy reply to this about how it wants more moveslots, how it has trouble with common Steels and Fairies do to aforementioned lack of moveslots, its massive competition with significantly better Mega DD'rs, or its reliance on Stealth Rock to not exist; or I could just say this:
Mega Altaria.

Mega Altaria lacks the niche of being a wallbreaker, a revenge killer, and takes up a mega slot. I can even say the same that it wants more moveslots. It can only fit all of Return, EQ, Heal Bell, Roost, DD, Cotton Guard etc etc into 4 slots. Mega Altaria also has to choose what it wants to be walled by with said previous problem, while Bandnite has 4 slots for coverage. I agree that Mega Alt is obviously a better Pokemon, but you act like it outclasses and hence no reason to use Dnite, when Dnite has solid things over it too. Nice one liner though.

 

[Anduril]

Wrong, because even when it's unboosted
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 288-338 (98.9 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Obviously, Secret Sword and Hydro Pump always OHKOes Mega Houndoom.

In other words, keldeo is a hard heck of Mega Houndoom. Also:

-It's not right to assume that a Pokemon is at +2 in many situation, specially gaainst M Houndoom. M Houndoom doesn't have the defenses, the typing nor the ability to take hits (actually, iis frail).
-M Hundoom doesn't usually un Sludge Bomb because it requires atleast Taunt (or Will-o-wisp, although it's not a great user) to be a true stallbreaker. The main reason M houndoom is in B- is because it's a stallbreaker.

Keldeo is not a hard check as shown by the calc. +2 Doom blows right past Keldeo if it tries to switch in. Mega Doom also finds it easy to setup, considering it forces out common mons such as the Latis and Mega Sableye. It also certainly doesn't require Taunt either, it's just the icing on the cake.

 

[Martin]

I support the move up for Houndoom personally. It just hits so goddamn hard after a boost from Nasty Plot, and its available coverage allows it to muscle past a fair number of its checks, as well as making it near-impossible to reliably switch in on. Add to this its great speed tier and it is harder to deal with than it seems at a glance. I think the only real thing which holds it back from A- IMO is the opportunity cost that comes with using it.

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

I never found that Wish supporters paired well with Wobbuffet, especially Chansey or Blissey. Wobbuffet fits on more aggressive playstyles than the blobs, and offensive Pokemon tend to benefit more from its capabilities. Healing Wish from Latias, Mega Lopunny, or Jirachi is nice, and while I was originally convinced that such support was close to mandatory, I have found that Wobbuffet can still perform consistently without Healing Wish.

I've seen Wobbuffet work on more defensive teams because it can take out quite a few wallbreakers that lack a super effective move or because it can defeat mega Diancie and Mega Metagross.
It really doesn't need support though, it works by itself. If anything, it's supposed to support things that set up like Nasty Plot Houndoom, Swords Dance Mega Pinsir, Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X, etc.

 

[give me an A]

New thread, new nomination.

down to A
Probably the most controversial nomination I'm laying on the table for while, but quite frankly, when I look at the A+ rank, this is the one pokemon that stands out as considerably worse then the rest. The current state of the meta just doesn't seem to appreciate Landorus-T. Firstly, its scarf set has really fallen from excellency, and is while u-turn spamming can be used to grab and keep momentum and pressure, its really not that hard to punish. Then again, landorus can punish the over predicts with a stab attack or coverage move, but is it really worthy of A+? The presence of the reliable garchomp, annoying Gliscor, and the presence of the white frankly, somewhat overpowered landorus-I has caused many pokemon to run Ice type coverage more often, which really hurts landorus-T. I've also been finding that as bulky ground pivot, Hippowdon is generally more reliable. While it lacks intimidate, its pure ground typing allows it to survive the plethora of hidden power ice's running amok in the tier, and gives it a handy resistance to stealth rock. Hippowdon also has access to a reliable form of recovery in slack off, which landorus lacks, making it prone to being worn down when switching into the pokemon its supposed to check, such as talonflame, opposed to hippowdon, which can constantly check similar pokemon without having to worry about this issue. In conclusion, Landorus-T feels somewhat underwhelming, and I see it more on the level of Latias, Rotom-W and mega Venusaur rather then pokemon such tornadus-T, Azumarill and Mega Scizor.

 

[Vert]

anyone who believes mega aerodactyl should drop has never used or faced one. this thing is simplyinvalidates offensive teams due to its ability to outpace pretty much the whole metagame and threatening with its great stab moves in stone edge and aerial ace. offensive team few checks get worn down easily by hazards because mega aerodactyl forces a lot of switches. fire fang and aqua tail are superb coverage moves, and they come to so much use v. balanced and bulky offense, checking the omnipresent gliscor and ferrothorn. i would love to provide a list of how much stuff mega aerodactyl checks, but it there are so many ranging from mega lopunny to landorus to serperior.

i've used shuckle a lot in xy and sticky web was decent at that point of time, but at the moment, the playstyle isn't very great. first of all, mega sableye doesn't do crap because sticky web has field days against stall and balance. the main magic bouncer is mega diancie which is annoying to deal with and serperior completely wrecks you now by getting +1 speed which forces you to run av bisharp = pretty sad since the archetype focuses on hitting hard. bisharp's effectiveness also declined in the transition to oras. this makes sticky web teams have a hard time sealing the match. shuckle can drop to c-

lastly, why is mega sharpedo still in b rank? it is not garbage, but it was so overhyped, but everyone now realizes that you play with a 5v6 match up, and even then, mega sharpedo rarely seals the game itself and if you win a match, i pretty much garuntee sharpedo was never even touched, so you are better off using a different mega that can bring more utility as a fast cleaner such as sub-pup lopunny, mega sceptile, mega alakazam, and even scolipede. mega sharpedo has a niche, but it is not strong enough to keep it up in b -- could probably drop all the way down to c+

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

New thread, new nomination.

View attachment 40971 down to A
Probably the most controversial nomination I'm laying on the table for while, but quite frankly, when I look at the A+ rank, this is the one pokemon that stands out as considerably worse then the rest. The current state of the meta just doesn't seem to appreciate Landorus-T. Firstly, its scarf set has really fallen from excellency, and is while u-turn spamming can be used to grab and keep momentum and pressure, its really not that hard to punish. Then again, landorus can punish the over predicts with a stab attack or coverage move, but is it really worthy of A+? The presence of the reliable garchomp, annoying Gliscor, and the presence of the white frankly, somewhat overpowered landorus-I has caused many pokemon to run Ice type coverage more often, which really hurts landorus-T. I've also been finding that as bulky ground pivot, Hippowdon is generally more reliable. While it lacks intimidate, its pure ground typing allows it to survive the plethora of hidden power ice's running amok in the tier, and gives it a handy resistance to stealth rock. Hippowdon also has access to a reliable form of recovery in slack off, which landorus lacks, making it prone to being worn down when switching into the pokemon its supposed to check, such as talonflame, opposed to hippowdon, which can constantly check similar pokemon without having to worry about this issue. In conclusion, Landorus-T feels somewhat underwhelming, and I see it more on the level of Latias, Rotom-W and mega Venusaur rather then pokemon such tornadus-T, Azumarill and Mega Scizor.

Let's take a step back and look at what's in A for a second:

What do they have in common? Well, depending on what angle you look at it, Celebi, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Mega Manectric, Scrotum-W, Slowbro (and Mega), Starmie (to an extent), Tyranitar (to an extent), and Venusaur are able to take on the omnipresent physical attackers in OU. Landorus-T is like Mega Manectric who has intimidate + a Fast Volt Switch to switch into a tank that appreciates a weaker physical attack, only better. Unlike Mega Manectric, Landorus-Therian has some better things going for it. For one, it's a lot more splashable, since it doesn't take up the mega slot. It also has the advantage of being able to hold an item like leftovers. It is also more unpredictable, it could be running an Impish 252 HP, 252 Defense set with a slower U-turn to safely bring in a frail attacker like Mega Beedrill, or a Banded/Scarf set that focuses on attacking to take out talonfLAME, it also provides support for Volt-Turn teams. Landorus-Therian also checks mostly any physical attacker and can retard the setup of Dragon Dances. Overall, I think that Landorus-Therian should stay in A+.

 

[urban]

New thread, new nomination.

View attachment 40971 down to A
Probably the most controversial nomination I'm laying on the table for while, but quite frankly, when I look at the A+ rank, this is the one pokemon that stands out as considerably worse then the rest. The current state of the meta just doesn't seem to appreciate Landorus-T. Firstly, its scarf set has really fallen from excellency, and is while u-turn spamming can be used to grab and keep momentum and pressure, its really not that hard to punish. Then again, landorus can punish the over predicts with a stab attack or coverage move, but is it really worthy of A+? The presence of the reliable garchomp, annoying Gliscor, and the presence of the white frankly, somewhat overpowered landorus-I has caused many pokemon to run Ice type coverage more often, which really hurts landorus-T. I've also been finding that as bulky ground pivot, Hippowdon is generally more reliable. While it lacks intimidate, its pure ground typing allows it to survive the plethora of hidden power ice's running amok in the tier, and gives it a handy resistance to stealth rock. Hippowdon also has access to a reliable form of recovery in slack off, which landorus lacks, making it prone to being worn down when switching into the pokemon its supposed to check, such as talonflame, opposed to hippowdon, which can constantly check similar pokemon without having to worry about this issue. In conclusion, Landorus-T feels somewhat underwhelming, and I see it more on the level of Latias, Rotom-W and mega Venusaur rather then pokemon such tornadus-T, Azumarill and Mega Scizor.

Landorus-T is definitely starting to fall off somewhat as far as being a defensive rocks setter, especially with the rise of three mons you mentioned - Tank Chomp, Hippo, and Gliscor. Out of all of these, I think most of us would agree that Hippo does the job the best, but each one has its own benefits of course. Lando's benefits in particular are access to U-Turn and Intimidate, but you're right when you say that these benefits aren't always relevant or needed, which is why one of the other mons I mentioned is often chosen over Lando-T.

However, I do think your post fails to consider the offensive sets Lando-T can run. The offensive rocks set is still pretty great at doing its job - it can get up rocks, pivot with U-Turn, or threaten plenty of mons with an invested Earthquake or Knock Off. Double Dance sets are also on the rise, and they turn Lando-T into a truly terrifying sweeper, especially considering how easy it can be for Lando to start boosting between Intimidate and its good bulk.

Overall, I would say Ice type coverage being everywhere is a problem for Lando-T, but its versatility is a huge asset, and there's not really anything else in the tier that can do what Landorus-T does. It should stay A+ imo.

Edit: Sort of got ninja'd.

 

[give me an A]

I agree that landorus's offensive earth plate stealth rock set is probably its best bet at staying in A+, it as an offensive pokemon, landorus's speed tier is extremely undesirable. Pokemon such as Kyreum-B and Charizard Y are gaining usage, and they both outspeed and clearly OHKO landorus-T. As a offensive stealth rock setter, it must constantly compete with garchomp, who is armed to the teeth with a much more desirable speed tier as well as secondary stab it make good use of offensively, not to mention rough skin, which allows it to punish physical attacks. My apologies for not giving u-turn enough recognition, as it is a large selling point for Lanodrus-T which other bulky grounds lack, but I'm not sure if that puts it on the same level as say, garchomp or gliscor or even Landorus-I (who's offensive stealth rock variant is extremely effective and arguably better then Landorus-T's).

theurbandear:
I agree that I probably undersold Landorus-T's offensive capabilities. Its double dance set is pretty scary, but theirs the issue that it needs to set up twice in most cases. If it sets up swords dance first, then its at risk from faster threats. If it sets up agility, pokemon bulky enough to take a hit and proceed to KO are pretty problematic. As you mentioned, ice type coverage being everywhere is not doing it many favours, and the fact that most pokemon then run I coverage are faster then landorus-t, it will often struggle to end up being taken by surprise and eliminated the match fairly early on (at least in my experiences). As a bulky ground, I'd rather use hippowdon, which can check more stuff for longer periods of time then landorus due to recovery, as well as beat bisharp (Which offensive landorus does not enjoy dealing with...). Overall, I respect your opinions and argument and you made valid points, however, due to getting worn down much to quick, or struggling to set, I don't think landorus-T's positive traits warrant a drop.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Warrants*'
Clefable is not an S rank pokemon. It isn't even an A+ pokemon. The metagame has to many significant counters. Heatran 4X Moonblasts and even tanks them from Charge Beam variants (and that is a thing). Metagross's Bullet Punch / Meteor Mash is to good and Clef has nothing to face that.
+6 252 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 90-106 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Clefable Charge Beam vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 128-151 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 10.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Clefable Charge Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 161-190 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The sad part is the fact these calculations are solely based off of the fact Clefable either Charge Beams her way to +6 or Calm Minds. Notice how none of them are OHKOs. This means only Flamethrower variants have a change and even then those only hurt MegaGross

Meanwhile...
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 494-584 (125.3 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, there are more counters, I just decided to name off the most common. As you see, even at +6 Clefable's Charge Beam and Moonblast cannot OHKO Special Defensive Heatran while it can also 2HKO her with Flash Cannon.

Clefable is more or less an A Rank, due to its impressive defenses but poor offenses and a lot of Checks.

Why are you using charge beam clefable calcs as a reason to drop it to A? Another problem is why are you keeping it on heatran and mega metagross which is probably the dumbest thing i've ever seen. It's defenses are enough to handle what it's meant to check and clefable has like 5 teammates in the back to deal with it's checks. And mega gross can't counter clefable because thunder wave and heatran needs flash cannon to be able to do anything back to it.

 

[p2]

Warrants*'
Clefable is not an S rank pokemon. It isn't even an A+ pokemon. The metagame has to many significant counters. Heatran 4X Moonblasts and even tanks them from Charge Beam variants (and that is a thing). Metagross's Bullet Punch / Meteor Mash is to good and Clef has nothing to face that.
+6 252 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 90-106 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Clefable Charge Beam vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 128-151 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 10.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Clefable Charge Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 161-190 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The sad part is the fact these calculations are solely based off of the fact Clefable either Charge Beams her way to +6 or Calm Minds. Notice how none of them are OHKOs. This means only Flamethrower variants have a change and even then those only hurt MegaGross

Meanwhile...
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 494-584 (125.3 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, there are more counters, I just decided to name off the most common. As you see, even at +6 Clefable's Charge Beam and Moonblast cannot OHKO Special Defensive Heatran while it can also 2HKO her with Flash Cannon.

Clefable is more or less an A Rank, due to its impressive defenses but poor offenses and a lot of Checks.

What do you mean poor offenses? Clefable probably has the easiest time in OU setting up Calm Minds because it's Fairy typing leaves it weak to only 2 types and they aren't exactly the most common offensive types. Not to mention it's ridiculously hard to OHKO with neutral moves + it has great recovery and it has 2 amazing different abilities.
I don't know where you're getting Charge Beam from (it's garbage), but the standard is Moonblast + Flamethrower coverage wise.
Clefable also has an extremely good movepool, which allows it to screw over its checks like Focus Blast for Heatran or Thunder Wave for MGross (Even flamethrower does almost 50%). Saying it should drop when it's easily one of the most versatile mons, fulfilling countless roles in OU, is just silly.

post is all over the place, but I think I got my point across.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Warrants*'
Clefable is not an S rank pokemon. It isn't even an A+ pokemon. The metagame has to many significant counters. Heatran 4X Moonblasts and even tanks them from Charge Beam variants (and that is a thing). Metagross's Bullet Punch / Meteor Mash is to good and Clef has nothing to face that.
+6 252 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 90-106 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Clefable Charge Beam vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 128-151 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 10.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Clefable Charge Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 161-190 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The sad part is the fact these calculations are solely based off of the fact Clefable either Charge Beams her way to +6 or Calm Minds. Notice how none of them are OHKOs. This means only Flamethrower variants have a change and even then those only hurt MegaGross

Meanwhile...
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 494-584 (125.3 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, there are more counters, I just decided to name off the most common. As you see, even at +6 Clefable's Charge Beam and Moonblast cannot OHKO Special Defensive Heatran while it can also 2HKO her with Flash Cannon.

Clefable is more or less an A Rank, due to its impressive defenses but poor offenses and a lot of Checks.

I agree that it shouldn't be S rank, but I disagree that it should be A rank. Guidoisrealmsmc and fleggufl have already explained why this logic is failed and that you are completely undermining Clefable's offensive capabilities, but you are acting like Clefable can't be used at all defensively. Now I know Stall isn't that great anymore but balance teams do appreciate a clerk with offensive presence, and its ability to check a lot of setup sweepers is also pretty nice

Clefable Stays A+

 

[DarkNostalgia]

What the fu hell.
Are you seriously wanting Clefable to go down to A?
If you are saying Heatran hard counters Clefable, you have obviously never used one. If you are saying Clefable uses Charge Beam, you have obviously never faced one - from an experienced player, that is.
Clefable has easily-tailorable moveslots, meaning it really doesn't have 'checks'. Metagross? The majority of Clefable runs Thunder Wave / Flamethrower, and it's not like Clefable would stay in. Heatran? Thunder Wave severly cripples it, and without recovery, Heatran actually loses to Clefable because the latter can keep using Calm Mind. Talonflame? Thunder Wave exists, and so does Thunderbolt.
Clefable is versatile, and offers a good glue to balance teams. The amount of Pokemon it checks is just insurmountable, including, but not limited to, Mega Lopunny, Mega Diancie, Keldeo, Mega Altaria, Thundurus. It provides great utility - sets incorporating Healing Wish, Heal Bell, Stealth Rock are rising in popularity.

TL;DR: Stellar typing+abilities, great glue to balance teams, tailorable movesets, versatility. Clefable is undoubtedly one of the best of A+.

 

[North Gate]

First post on this new thread, but I have to make it quick.

Mega Aero should stay A-, I could see it in A, but that's not for today.
It threatens every offensive build in existence bar shit like scarf Latios, and it can even be a fast stealth rocker since it forces out some shit. I've seen support with rocks + defog + roost but that hits piss weakly, but Aero is just a threat to offense and it's required to have a check to the two base 150s, and frail fast mons in general for offense because they tear apart the frailer nature in general, and while you can say it struggles against bulky stuff like Hippo it can carry Aqua Tail to hit that very hard with the Tough Claws boost. Like many threats it's coverage moves can knock down the checks to it immensely, and you will have to scout on bulkier teams to know what coverage slot it has. Does it have Quake? Ice Fang? Fire Fang? Aqua Tail? It has options and that makes it dangerous to switch in to.

also plz use wing attack the perfect accuracy means nothing with evasion clause and wing attack has more PP :^)

 

[Roxachronic]

If Clefable goes down to A then at least half of the A+ should go down before it, I mean that mon is so splashable that is ridiculous, also those calcs should be some of the most biased I have ever seen.

I agree with the nom for Megachomp to B/B+. It definitely has a solid niche and thrives in a meta where balance and/or fatter teams are really common. There is no denying this mon is such a massive threat to the dominant playstyle, so B- is definitely underselling it. Also rofl at trash mons like Mega Beedrill, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Sceptile and Quagsire being ranked above it. I always see this "opportunity cost" to use Mega Garchomp because mega slot xD, yet these mons are ranked above. Wtf does Mega Beedrill even do, dies to any priority against offense, can't wallbreak through any fat cores and just about lacks enough power to pick up the KOs it needs (it's dying if it's not KOing something). Also has trash STABs with hardly good coverage to round it off (yes it gets Drill Run but that does zero to common Steels like Scizor, Ferro, Skarm etc). Idk how this mon's niche can even be ranked higher than Mega Chomp's. Quagsire is still ranked too high imo, it lost its best niche in beating Baton Pass and there are just better bulky waters to use. Mega Sharpedo requires a ridiculous amount of support (needs hazards, prior damage, wearing down checks etc) to even clean late game, and has horrible bulk. Unlike MegaChomp, Mega Shark needs support whereas MegaChomp just appreciates it. Sharpedo is hardly ever putting in work otherwise, other than getting a strong Crunch off or something before dying to a Tackle. I'd expand more but I just wanted to point out how it's ridiculous MegaChomp sits at B- while these mons are ranked higher. The arguments I see for keeping MegaChomp down can easily be applied to these mons so idk why they stay in their ranks. I guess people just forgot about them / don't care enough about the B ranks (everyone always looking at the A ranks). Anyway, I have a nom to make:

Dragonite B+ -> A-

Having used this Pokemon quite a lot to get reqs, I think it's pretty underrated imo. Dragonite is actually really good and can put in work against pretty much any archtype. Against offense, it's Banded Espeed is actually ridiculously good for cleaning up late game or revenge killing in general. I'm specifically a fan of the CB set, the immediate power it provides is fantastic for giving it solid niches in revenging and wallbreaking.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 196-231 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is gauranteed after Thundy takes a round off LO recoil (it's most common item by far). Thundy is really common on offense and just painful to deal with in general, especially if you're using offense yourself. Dnite gives you a good way to kill it without worrying about taking a T-Wave beforehand or just a strong LO Tbolt / HP Ice.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 193-228 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Talonflame, another big threat to offense teams is dealt with nicely by Dnite. You don't have to take a Banded BB to kill it, and you can tank it anyway with Multiscale.

Banded Espeed in general is just really good. It's a great answer to offense teams that need a way to deal with set up sweepers or need strong priority, and at the same time a Dnite slot covers a decent switch in to common threats like Keldeo.

Against fatter teams, Banded Outrage just breaks anything.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 231-273 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 234-276 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 207-244 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think these calcs should explain that nothing that doesn't resist is walling this thing. It's a fantastic wallbreaker. And yeah it's true that Steels and Fairies can stop these, but most don't like taking one or two anyway.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 156-185 (40.5 - 48%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Heatran can't even do anything back either. Other Steels like Skarmory and Ferrothorn are threatened by Fire Punch and it has EQ for those who aren't. You can even run Superpower to lessen the 50/50s, if it even is that.

This is not mentioning its other sets, such as DD which is pretty great considering it has Multiscale, so it can set up fairly easily and put in work at the same power of Choice Band, but with Speed and being able to switch moves. Sp.Def Dragonite is also decent, albeit really rare now, but it just goes to show this Pokemon can be versatile.

TL;DR - Dragonite is versatile enough to be considered A- worthy, and packs a solid niche by giving offense a revenge killer, a wallbreaker, a ground immunity and a Keldeo switch in. It is indeed capable of picking up sweeps too with its DD set, and can belong on fatter teams with the Sp.Def set.

"Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame."

With its DD set and stellar coverage (as well as Espeed to make reveging it harder), it is capable of sweeping a big portion of the meta. It's not so much a supporter but it can be with its bulky set, especially with access to things like Heal Bell. With regards to walling, well it's not really a wall but it is a decent switch in to a top threat in Keldeo. It doesn't really require support to do its niche for revenge killing or wallbreaking, but I guess trapping Steels with the classic DragMag core is nice to ease its job. It does appreciate Stealth Rock removal though but that hardly means much considering your team's gonna pack hazard removal 99% of the time anyway, and it has solid bulk to live the majority of hits after Stealth Rock. This is easily overshadowed though when you look at its positive traits. And yes I know it has flaws since common types like Steel and Fairy can be a pain to it spamming Outrage, but I feel this is a problem keeping it from rank A or A+, rather than pushing it down to B+. As said before though, it can definitely threaten said Steels and Fairies anyway. This mon is really solid but does have some issues holding it back, which is pretty much a perfect definition of A- rank.

The thing is requiring SR out and Steel and Fairies out at the same time to do its job effectively is not that good(I mean not always, but I can think plenty of moments when you would need Multiscale to be able to tank a hit especially with a lot of Fairy,Dragon and Ice moves out there, a lot of mons being faster,etc.), especially when CharX or M-Altaria do the DD job much better, or even a wallbreaker role, because better STABs, and being dependant on Outrage on a Band set may not be the best option, because you are easily revenge killed, can become Fairy or Steel setup bait, of course you're gonna aim to remove Fairies and Steels beforehand, but that is easier said than done.

Dragonite can be pretty great with the right support but that is why it is B+.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

I agree that Shuckle should be dropped. If I had my way, it'd be completely removed and blacklisted. In XY, Shuckle was a niche Sticky Web user for HO teams, as it's overall bulk and useful ability allowed it to perform its job without fail, especially when holding a Mental Herb.

With the introduction of Magic Bounce Mega-Diancie and Mega-Sableye, both Pokemon that are very common, Shuckle becomes a waste of space. Not to mention the rise of Serperior (here we go again) and Starmie, respectively benefiting from Sticky Web and removing it.

Pairing Bisharp to get a boost from Pokemon defogging Shuckle'a Sticky Web was also a thing in XY. Now with Aegislash removed from the tier, Starmie has a much easier time spinning away hazards. You might argue that Mega-Sableye could also spinblock Starmie, but why would you use something as terribly slow as MSableye on a Sticky Web team? That doesn't make any sense. Also the rise of Hippowdom and Mega-Scizor, and the prevalence of Mega-Lopunny and tank Garchomp, etc. Even with a +2, Bisharp still can't terrorize a team like it had in the past.

Shuckle should be dropped.

I definitely agree with shuckle dropping but I'm not sure why you'd blacklist it if you had your own way. Blacklisting is only for stuff that is not only unviable but makes the thread cancer to read which definitely isn't the case with shuckle. I'd drop it to C- or D for now but I can see it going unranked because sticky web is match up reliant as all help and rather inconsistent.

 

[Kurona]

Sorry to beat a very old and likely very dead horse, but is there any reason not to put Mega Latios to D? It's been discussed at length, we all know it's nothing but a luxury Mega that like 99 times out of 100 you'll never use because you'll more than likely find your team would be better off with LO Latios and a different Mega, and frankly to see it on the same rank as the 'mon in C and even higher than the 'mon in C- is kind of insulting since they have very well defined niches. I honestly don't see myself using M-Latios more than say, Dugtrio or Mega Blastoise. Hell, I see myself getting more use out of a ton of 'mon in D than I do out of Latiosite.
Unless someone's had some good, solid success with a DD set or CM for a weird more offensive version of M-Latias, I have no idea why it's as high as C.

 

[Analytic]

What the fu hell.
Are you seriously wanting Clefable to go down to A?
If you are saying Heatran hard counters Clefable, you have obviously never used one. If you are saying Clefable uses Charge Beam, you have obviously never faced one - from an experienced player, that is.
Clefable has easily-tailorable moveslots, meaning it really doesn't have 'checks'. Metagross? The majority of Clefable runs Thunder Wave / Flamethrower, and it's not like Clefable would stay in. Heatran? Thunder Wave severly cripples it, and without recovery, Heatran actually loses to Clefable because the latter can keep using Calm Mind. Talonflame? Thunder Wave exists, and so does Thunderbolt.
Clefable is versatile, and offers a good glue to balance teams. The amount of Pokemon it checks is just insurmountable, including, but not limited to, Mega Lopunny, Mega Diancie, Keldeo, Mega Altaria, Thundurus. It provides great utility - sets incorporating Healing Wish, Heal Bell, Stealth Rock are rising in popularity.

TL;DR: Stellar typing+abilities, great glue to balance teams, tailorable movesets, versatility. Clefable is undoubtedly one of the best of A+.

I agree with this, glue is the best way that you can describe Clefable's role as.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Warrants*'
Clefable is not an S rank pokemon. It isn't even an A+ pokemon. The metagame has to many significant counters. Heatran 4X Moonblasts and even tanks them from Charge Beam variants (and that is a thing). Metagross's Bullet Punch / Meteor Mash is to good and Clef has nothing to face that.
+6 252 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 90-106 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Clefable Charge Beam vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 128-151 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 10.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Clefable Charge Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 161-190 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The sad part is the fact these calculations are solely based off of the fact Clefable either Charge Beams her way to +6 or Calm Minds. Notice how none of them are OHKOs. This means only Flamethrower variants have a change and even then those only hurt MegaGross

Meanwhile...
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 494-584 (125.3 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, there are more counters, I just decided to name off the most common. As you see, even at +6 Clefable's Charge Beam and Moonblast cannot OHKO Special Defensive Heatran while it can also 2HKO her with Flash Cannon.

Clefable is more or less an A Rank, due to its impressive defenses but poor offenses and a lot of Checks.

This is the most uneducated post I have seen so far. I have seen nominations for Quilfish that have better logical reasoning than this. Normally I would not be so rude in this assertion, but you showed so much audacity in this post that I feel any retaliation against this blatantly wrong post is warranted. After you assert that Clefable has "so many counters", you post two that should never be stayed in on. Also, Clefable has Thunder Wave to cripple both Heatran and Megagross, so even in these stupid scenarios it is not without teeth. Clefable is a beautiful adhesive to many balanced teams, and is a threat that must be acknowledged to prevent from setting up Calm Minds and almost winning on its own bar Steel and Poison types. This post attempts to show ridiculous calcs to attempt to prove that Clefable should be A rank, when only two are presented and even the two that were presented are false. I could also post a wall of calcs to show what Clefable walls out even without a Calm Mind due to its good stats and great mono Fairy typing.
I am sorry, but if you have no idea what is going on with the meta, no, not even, the basics of the Pokemon within the meta, you need to refrain from making such bold posts. Someone's opinion on a Pokemon in OU is usually opinion, not fact, and I immediately look down upon posts that attempt to show their opinion as fact without valid data and reasoning behind it, neither of which this post about Clefable has. Clefable stays A+

 

[Kurona]

Alright guys that's like five replies to the same post lol; we get why it's bad no need to keep going on about it