Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Machi]

Cobalion shouldn't rise. It's just so underwhelming and piss weak to do anything in OU. I tried using it as a Bisharp counter and Weavile check, but it needs Chople to avoid getting bodied by Low Kick and is thus easily worn down. And if the opponent doesn't have Bisharp/Scizor I found it is complete deadweight. Its just so weak that it really can't do anything but wall Bisharp. Even if it switches into a Knock Off what usually happens is the opponent switches into Hippo/Lando-T/Latias/Tflame/Thundy/Gliscor/Slowbro/Starmie/ anything else with some form of bulk, Cobalion does 0 to the switch in even at +1, and is forced out. It's fine in C+

It is a check not a counter so... I don't see any issue with respect to why it was nominated a fairly reliable check, since he fares well against most of the moves carried by either dark type you mentioned. Now if we take team composition into consideration that makes the whole thing too messy since there are viable sets that can be tailored to bait the switch in -- its not entirely out of options (rocks/taunt/volt switch/thunder wave come to mind) to at least not be such a sink in momentum.

Aside that the typing + ability can be convenient in baiting defensive teams, my favorite being against MSable with switching into a dark move then baiting it to use WoW for either my magic bouncer to return or something with flash fire to utilize. There is a lot more flexibility than you're giving credit for.

Offensively it helps as noted in checking fairy types and popular dark types.

 

[Flygonial]

You're using it wrong.

Its supposed to be a check to common Dark types and Fairies. Close Combat murders Weavile and Bisharp. If being able to 2HKO MAltaria with an uninvested Iron Head is piss weak then everything I know is a lie.

Keep in mind it's a STAB Iron Head against an uninvested in bulk pokemon. If it has 248 HP EVs then an uninvested Iron Head will not OHKO. It is weak in such a power creeped metagame, although iirc quite a few Cobalions run some offensive investment (Too lazy to run through the usage stats as Cobalion doesn't exactly have high usage). But then, that's not the main appeal of Cobalion and I'm not against a rise, but seriously, it isn't powerful at all in ORAS OU.

 

[Flygonial]

112 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 168-198 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It can with the Standard.

0 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 146-174 (41.3 - 49.2%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Can almost 2HKO without investment.

It warrants a definite rise.

Its STAB combos are imo quite great. It's other STAB Can beat what resists it most of the time.

You said uninvested, nor did you mention rocks. Admittedly, they would probably be on the field as Cobalion is a rocks setter though. Even then, Cobalion is still weak. The offensive spread is EV'ed to OHKO Gardevoir and Excadrill, both of which are frail and the latter of which is getting hit by a notably powerful STAB. It may have decent coverage with its STABs but it doesn't have the power to abuse it to a good extent. If Cobalion is to rise, then how hard it hits wouldn't be a major factor.

 

[Adaam]

You're using it wrong.

Its supposed to be a check to common Dark types and Fairies. Close Combat murders Weavile and Bisharp. If being able to 2HKO MAltaria with an uninvested Iron Head is piss weak then everything I know is a lie.

Except you aren't gonna use CC on weavile because Low Kick does like 80% to it :/. Like I said it's great at countering Bisharp but that's pretty much it. It's really hard for it to check fairies when literally half the meta walls it so they can switch out to one of its hundreds of checks. Plus Iron Head doesn't even do as much to Altaria as Fire Blast does to it lol again, it's a mediocre fairy check at best, especially since it can't switch into ANY fairy in the meta game due to its fighting type and terrible special bulk. At best it can revenge M-Garde and weakened Clefables and Altarias but other than that you are better off using Scizor as a Weavile + Fairy check. Coba should stay C+

 

[Communist Chansey]

Mega Metagross: S > A+ The metagame has adapted to it for sure, but its raw unboosted power and its speed tier still have me leaning towards S. Need to think on it more.
Rotom-W: A > A- It may be able to stay A just for its cleaner choice scarf set that was posted in here a while ago. Hydro pump can hurt, volt switch keeps momentum and adds up, and tricking scarf onto walls can clear the way for other attackers.
Celebi: A- > B+ Absolutely. Beating Keldeo without HP Bug isn't as essential right now as it was when it made its charge into the A ranks. Still useful but not A- rank useful.
Tentacruel: B > B- It comes in and dies. Acid Spray's nice if clefable's an issue but otherwise starmie is my go to defensive spinner.
Mega Ampharos: C > C+ Makes for a nice bulky pivot from what I've seen. Mold Breaker also helps on occasion if you run into a volt absorb user or the rare Shedinja

Serperior: A- > A

• Not sure about this. Its quite weak without boosts and if it can't boost (Unaware Fable) it's dead weight. It's movepool is also lacking . Overall a good mon but lacking too much.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Clefable isn't reliably stopping it without sdef investment. There's totally popular mons that give it trouble (mega venu, tornadus-t) but I wouldn't say clefable is among them.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

aight might as well do this lol

Hide

Mega Metagross: S > A+ - Uh initially I was against this, but after many of the arguments, I'm gonna have to agree. There's just so many things that are more common now that completely stop Metagross (Slowbro/king, Hippo, etc all rising in usage) greatly hampering its effectiveness. Its undeniably an amazing mon, just... not as amazing anymore. AGREE

Ferrothorn: A > A+ - As amazing as I think Ferrothorn is, it just has too many limitations to be A+. Yea, its fantastic, but those weaknesses do come to bite it in the ass sometimes. Disagree

Rotom-W: A > A- - Rotom just really is not that good. Its so easily prepared for and loses to a lot of the tier, in addition to being very easily overwhelmed, while offensive mons it typically checks decline in usage while ones that can overwhelm/outlive/dispatch Rotom increase in usage. Drop it.

Celebi: A- > B+ - Celebi is something i use a lot, but due to the variety of weaknesses it has as a pokemon, it should drop.

Reuniclus: B+ > B - Reuniclus is very good and underprepared for. Does not require THAT much support actually, but it does feel like a mini Clefable at times simply bc its greater bulk and power is offset by its typing (also Sableye is a thing!) but I feel it should stay B+.

Feraligatr: B > B+ - No opinion

Serperior: A- > A - No opinion

Infernape: B- > C+ - I actually really like offensive Infernape as a pokemon. It can lure in quite a few threats for other pokemon (Grass Knot for Hippo, Gunk Shot for Clefable, HP Ice for Chomp/Lando, etc), but I'm personally indifferent on where it goes.

Keldeo: A+ > S - Holy shit Keldeo is so great. This pokemon is one of the most centralizing threats in the metagame (Seriously, what good team, even offense typically, has no Keldeo switch in?) and for good reason. While some may argue that because its so overprepared for it doesnt deserve S, which is something that sounds quite good on paper, but in actuality Keldeo can outlive and even beat most of its stops. Specs smashes many common switchins, Icy Wind gets things like Latios and other dragons, while also having nice utility on Keld's way out to ensure a threat remains slow to be dealt with by another pokemon. Scald alone lets Keldeo wear down many of its counters (Especially Venusaur and even Latias, as well as dissuade Azumarill from coming in), and in addition to this, many of Keldeo's counters are Pursuit weak (And in the case of Venusaur, sand from TTar neuters its recovery). Arguably the best counter thats viable in OU, Celebi, has many more issues restricting its own viability, and Latias, commonly seen as another premier one, is often overlooked for Latios, which falls prey to Specs Icy Wind on the switch. And all of this is JUST the specs set. Scarf, Life Orb Taunt, Sub Calm Mind, and more sets do a variety of other things for Keldeo that imo make it a nobrainer for S RANK.

Magneton: C+ > B- Keep it imo. The niche it carves out as opposed to Magneton isnt enough imo to move it up. Quite frankly, its not that good. C+

Tangrowth: B- > B/B+ - Simply put, Tangrowth is great. Its such an all around bulky pokemon with great utility in Knock Off and other moves, while also doing decent enough chip damage and taking relatively none back. It counters so many great things in this Meta (Keldeo, Excadrill, Electrics just to name a few). Tang for B+

Gengar: A+ > A - Gengar has been great for a while and likely will be, this gen at least. One of the only viable spinblockers, an offensive powerhouse, deals with a lot of top mons... Sure, Weavile, Torn, and Zam usage hurts it, but it does what it always has still: tear apart teams. Keep it.

Hippowdon: A > A+ - YES! Hippo is such a great mon. It's always been overlooked in this tier until recently and it just checks so many things its ridiculous. Hippo is amazing. Move it up.

Mega Ampharos: C > C+ - I was one of the people who nommed it. For my thoughts, read this. Move it up

Mega Diancie: A+ > A - Been playing with this a lot lately, and honestly the only set I find all that good is Rock Polish, but damn is Rock Polish great. It finds so many chances to set up and has massive power behind it. Fantastic cleaner, but idk if that set alone is enough for it to stay A+ so, idk.

More things I have no opinion on:
Dragalge: B+ > B
Cobalion: C+ > B-
Mega Aggron: C > C+
Tentacruel: B > B-
Chesnaught: B- > C+
M-Gallade: B+ > B
Noivern: C- > D

yay

 

[Tressed]

Rotom-W: A > A- | Valid. Washer hasn't really been good since Bird Spam fell out of favor, and even then it really struggles to keep itself healthy. Most of the Flying moves being thrown around these days come from Torn-T, who easily outlives Rotom-W thanks to Regenerator, Knock Off, and U-Turn.
Celebi: A- > B+ | Valid. Celebi is super passive, Torn-T's popularity means Celebi has to deal with another switch in, and the rise in Weavile and Zard X don't help either.
Serperior: A- > A | Given I was the one who brought this up, I still support it. Serp still puts a ton of pressure on it's counters and checks, and it can get out of hand extremely fast.
Infernape: B- > C+ | Agree. Infernape was kinda overhyped tbh. Offensive sets are ass, and the defensive set is very limited in scope. It's pretty much a niche pick at this point.
Dragalge: B+ > B | Agree, made a longer post about it here.
Cobalion: C+ > B- | Neutral. Coba has been very meh when I've used it. Even though it does check what it's supposed to and sets up Rocks, it doesn't really exert any other kind of pressure.
Tentacruel: B > B- | Agree. No reliable recovery, really easily worn down. Unless you're really weak to Fairies, it's almost always better to run Starmie tbh (and half the fairies outlast you so).
Hippowdon: A > A+ | I don't see why this guy shouldn't go up. Stops a ton of stuff, provides a ton of support, etc. Apart from the recent SD Zard X trend, things are looking pretty good for Hippo.
M-Gallade: B+ > B | Agree. It's really not any better than Mega Medicham imo. It's supposed to be a wallbreaker that does better against offense, but it just ends up being mediocre against both of them.
Noivern: C- > D | Torn-T is better in almost every way. Drop it.

 

[NinetyNineNo]

I have a question regarding the Metagross S > A+ deal. I'm seeing a lot of posts arguing stuff like "yeah if it doesn't carry Grass Knot then Slowbro walls it, if it doesn't carry HP Fire then Mega Scizor stops it", and so on. The thing is, why is it expected to deal with the entire metagame on its own? Diversity has been one of Megagross' selling points since the beginning, but no single mon can break through every single threat in OU (SD Zard X notwithstanding). Why is it considered 4MSS that every set has, at most, a couple of mons that can wall it? It can still muscle through almost everything on STABs alone, never mind coverage. So why is it held to such a higher standard than anything else?

 

[Sochlo]

Metagross is held at such a high standard because it's an S-Rank wallbreaker that currently has trouble breaking common builds.

In theory Metagross can handle most of its checks 1 on 1 with the right coverage move, but in practice it struggles against defensive cores. Yes it can beat Hippo with Grass Knot, but add a Ferrothorn in the mix and Megagross is suddenly pressured to predict perfectly lest it gets chipped away or crippled. The same is true with many combinations of mons (Slowbro/king, Scizor, Jirachi, Garchomp, etc). It relies so much on its coverage moves because quite frankly "it can muscle through almost anything on STABs alone" is a big exaggeration.

It's not like A+ is a bad rank or anything either, it's just not the epitome of OU anymore.

 

[Finchinator]

Mega Metagross: S > A+
Rotom-W A > A-
Celebi: A- > B+
Tangrowth: B- > B/B+
Hippowdon: A > A+
Gengar: A+ > A

Discussed all of these in previous posts and agree with them all. Will reiterate at some point if I feel the need to.

Ferrothorn: A > A+

Going to have to disagree on this one. Personally, I've always liked slapping Ferrothorn onto teams as a convenient spikes setter with great defensive typing (easy check to water, dragon, etc...you get the point I'm sure as we all do this with Ferro), but it doesn't have the practical qualities and overall viability to rise to A+. While it is able to "resist" the fairy type, it's an easy set-up fodder for CM Clef (specifically Flamethrower variants, which fuck it over) and given the volume of pokemon with coverage or STAB moves to nail it in the current metagame (upwards of half of A+ and S tier, to put it in perspective), its vulnerability to moves like Scald, Knock Off (no lefties Ferro is annoying), etc. Ferrothorn uses Leech Seed to avoid being totally passive, which helps, but it is still throwing away some momentum and granting opportunities to a plethora of opposing threats upon coming in due to lacking speed, taunt, or anything of that sort (Gyro Ball and Power Whip can do decent damage to the right things, but it's obviously nothing to brag about). Add this to the fact that Skarmory, the tier's other primary steel type spiker which gives some competition to Ferro, is also in A and Ferrothorn itself hasn't became much better in recent weeks to warrant a rise when it was stablized in A beforehand and you get why I think it should stay in A.

Cobalion: C+ > B-

Managed to fit Cobalion onto a couple bulky offensive or straight offensive teams recently and while it doesn't wall a large portion of the metagame (hell, every special attacker gives it a hard time and many physical attackers - i.e: grounds - can also threaten it easily), it does have a cool niche when it comes to setting up SR, generating momentum, etc. (depending on set, it can run HP Ice to lure LandoT/Chomp or run Taunt to prevent opposing set-up) and it can wall a couple of highly ranked threats such as Weavile, Bisharp, non-eq/fire fang Mega Aero (can shrug off a hit or two regardless), and (Mega) Scizor (although it needs taunt to prevent it from giving free SDs to opposing Scizor). Overall, I feel that Cobalion is a lackluster pokemon in the metagame with very limited use, but it can fit into teams and fulfill a couple of key roles such as the aforementioned utility and checking duties, so I wouldn't mind it rising to B- given the fact that a lot of other generally mediocre, but sometimes useful pokemon reside in B- currently.

Mega Diancie: A+ > A

Honestly, Mega Diancie just doesn't break through many teams currently, especially bulky ones, and it usually relies a lot upon protect, so CM isn't ever seen and RP isn't too common, either. It can pose as a lure to Scizor/Ferro with HP Fire, which is potentially useful with proper team support (I like using it with regular Gyarados, for example), but generally speaking the mindgames that come with having a Magic Bounce user, some moderate offensive pressure, and a fast offensive fairy is all you're getting with Mega Diancie in return for your mega slot. Looking at the other megas in A+ rank: Gyara, Lop, Sab, and Sciz. Gyara has the ability to sweep a lot of teams, especially with a lure or two working in conjunction with it, and I feel that it has the ability to break through and actually go somewhere far more often than Mega Diancie does (I may be looking at these two in comparison in a bit of a linear fashion, but I think it's still a valid comparison here). Lop is the epitome of anti-offense currently, imo, and it does a lot of damage with a lot of speed and it's pretty convenient to use, too. With PuP, it can fuck over opposing Hippo users or non-counter Skarm users if it is played wisely, too, so I feel like Lop is one of the top 5 megas in the tier and it does a much better job threatening things than Mega Diancie does. Sableye fulfills a defensive niche and I rarely use it, so I won't speak on this. Scizor, on the contrary, can be both a defensive and offensive presence on teams; given the fact that it can wall such a substantial portion of the metagame while also supporting, sweeping, and crippling many things, I can easily say that Mega Scizor should be higher than Mega Diancie in viability. Looking at it all in perspective and Mega Diancie simply isn't good enough in comparison to other A+ megas to stay in A+ and as a mon overall, I'm just not too impressed, so A is the right place for it I suppose.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Celebi: A- > B+: Unfortunately the metagame is not in celebi's favor. With all the stuff it gives a free turn to and it wanting 6 moves it seems the meta is really against celebi. A drop is almost inevitable at this point.

Magneton: C+ > B-: While it doesn't have the sheer bulk of magnezone the fact it outspeeds a lot of relevant stuff zone can't is a trait that can't be overlooked. Being able to outspeed tornadus-t, weavile is really important in this meta as both are very threatening. Move up imo

Tangrowth: B- > B/B+: Tangrowth is pretty damn good as it checks a bunch of shit, packs a decent punch, isn't worn down easily, and has solid coverage to boot. Move it up please

Gengar: A+ > A: Gengar shouldn't drop as while torn t and weavile are annoying this doesn't hinder it's matchup vs the rest of the tier which is really good. It is the only viable ghost type which alone is a fantastic niche since ghost is a very spammable attack type. Finally most of the legit switch ins to it like chansey and tentacruel which have no recovery in tentacruel's case and can't do anything back to it in chansey's case.

Tentacruel: B > B-: Tentacruel looks good on paper but in practice isn't that good since it has no recovery and everything it beats in theory wear it down so quickly. It supposedly checks keldeo but subcm sets up all over it and specs secret sword does a lot

Mega Ampharos: C > C+: Mega Ampharos should move up imo as it is a really durable pivot being able to check a ton of top tier threats. It's typing is good on both sides providing good resistances and offensive coverage with just it's stabs. Defensive sets also hit really hard even uninvested and the low speed is a blessing in disguise as mega ampharos is almost guaranteed to get a teammate in unscathered.

Hippowdon: A > A+:Hippowdon is amazing in this metagame as it checks a huge portion of the meta, and provides sand for excadrill. Also it's super splashable and easy to put on any balanced build.

M-Gallade: B+ > B: Yeah Idk why this is so high. It seems better then mega medicham in theory but in practice mega medicham is better as it doesn't need to set up to pose a threat and has fake out for a safe mega evolution.

Noivern: C- > D:I've made a post about noivern not dropping to D but going unranked entirely. Noivern is complete garbage and has no niche. It falls flat on it's face vs balanced,stall,bulky offense while it's only decent match up is hyper offense which isn't that good since noivern's weak as shit and can't take a hit to save it's life. It's also entirely outclassed by tornadus t outside of really tiny niches such as dragon stab. Using noivern is like playing with a handicap in which it hinders you completely and you get nothing in return.

 

[Karxrida]

Gonna keep this short because phone posting.

Cobalion shouldn't rise. It's super fucking weak so it's not OHKOing any bulkier Fairies, which means it can lose to/get crippled by them depending on what they're running (i.e. T-Wave or Fire coverage Clefable). The only healthy Fairy you can force out is Mega Gardevoir, and you switch in like never because it fucking murders you since no Fairy resist (which sucks for a supposed Fairy check). It's a cool hipster mon and all but it's too niche and flawed for the B ranks.

 

[brokenwings]

stuff

Mega Metagross: S > A+ Agreed, the metagame has adapted to it well and I think it's hard to fit on teams that aren't offensively inclined. It can be difficult to stop depending on the set or the right team support but it struggles against a lot of common defensive cores in OU right now. (tankchomp/hippo + steel type, any team with slowbro/king) It has to give up coverage for a better matchup against offense, and even then, isn't incredibly hard for offense to deal with in my experience, thanks to its average speed tier and terrible speed pre-mega. It's a very good mon but teams have adapted to it and I just don't see it being as threatening, versatile, or self-sufficient as any of the other mons in S right now. There's not much to say here that hasn't already been said better by someone else.

Ferrothorn: A > A+ I'm impartial to this, but I don't really see why it should be ranked one rank higher than Skarmory. It's a great mon and a defining force in OU, but there are tons of situations where it can just become a liability. At the same time, it's probably a bit easier to fit on a team than everything else in A, so I wouldn't really be bothered if it rose.

Celebi: A- > B+ Disagree, extremely versatile Pokemon with way more offensive and defensive utility than everything in the B ranks. Really shines on offense since it checks a plethora of water types and isn't bothered at all by scald or status, unlike most Keldeo/Rotom switch-ins for offense. Also has a great movepool that lets it either set up and become a threat itself, or pass one of sub/CM/NP/SD to a mon on your own team to make it even more difficult for the opponent to deal with. Also has access to cool niche stuff like healing wish, twave, SR, perish song, etc... It might not be the best mon in A-and can be exploitable at times, but I don't see why it should drop when it's just flat out better than everything below it.

Serperior: A- > A Have to agree, the actual pool of mons that can switch into and reliably check this thing is actually pretty limited. For the most part, any team without Torn-T, Heatran, Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, or Amoonguss is going to have a fairly difficult time dealing with this thing. (and most of those switch-ins really hate getting Glared.) It's not incredibly versatile, but all it really needs is Leaf Storm + HP Fire to be devastating. Taunt, glare, dragon pulse, knock off, substitute, giga drain, synthesis are all potential options in the last 2 slots that can significantly change how effective it is in different matchups. I wouldn't mind seeing a rise to A; this thing is great on offense and really punishes teams that aren't prepared enough for it. It may not be quite as consistent as a few things in A, but I feel like it kinda just outshines a lot of the other things in A- right now.

Gengar: A+ > A Agree, current metagame trends aren't very kind to it and it has a pretty rough time against most teams that aren't defensively inclined. (Unless you are using some weird sash / scarf set.) It's a good mon and most teams won't have a switch-in for it, but it has a rough time when the kinds of teams that it should be able to do well against are packing things like scarftar, pursuit Weavile, AV torn-t, Starmie, Alakazam, etc. which can easily deal with it. A seems fair to me, and more reflective of how Gengar preforms in the current meta. In my opinion, it's actually worse off than a few of the things that are already in A right now.

might edit in my thoughts on some of the other stuff later

 

[Machi]

Except you aren't gonna use CC on weavile because Low Kick does like 80% to it :/.

Except again the caveat it is a check not a counter... Aside that you seem to think that Weavile users can reliably predict such switch ins with accuracy, and if it comes to a 1 vs 1 blow you seem to be forgetting Cobalion is coming out on top provided enough health.

It is rather narrow to believe that you'd somehow be unable to enter on 3 out of 4 moves -- especially when low kick itself is a hard pressed move to fit in given the competition with Pursuit (which is also rather popular for helping sweeps). The fact that it has 3 out of 4 moves (possibly even all 4 if you opt Pursuit over Low Kick) means it is a good enough check -- if that isn't a switch in opportunity for you I can't imagine otherwise. But hey if you're confident in your predictive skills with Weavile I'm somewhat at a loss why you'd suddenly lose that ability on Cobalion.

As for its niche it boils down more to being a good absorber of Knock off while taking advantage of that momentum to set up rocks or catch a defensive switch in with taunt. Which can be a bitch for defensive oriented teams, that despise the combination. Finally, there is one other thing that isn't mentioned here that Cobalion has over other supportive & offensive steels. Namely, speed which is why Cobalion is so able to set up SR/Taunt or revenge kill/check with a certain reliability.

 

[Eraxxer]

My thoughts on the current noms

Mega Metagross: S
While most of the arguments have changed my mind from adamant that Gross should stay to slightly on the fence, I still think that it's too good to be even at A+. Look at Greninja - a Pokemon that could win depending on its coverage but still had many walls if it didn't have the right coverage moves. MMeta is in a very similar situation but for whatever reason it's viewed as different. Either way, it's a weak S rank due to BulkyChomp being common but it still can have Ice Punch to beat it.

Ferrothorn: A+
Checks Clef really well now that Flamethrower is pretty rare and Thunder Waved Ferro does like 70% iirc with G Ball. Hazards are amazing in this meta and Ferro is just so reliable at getting them up. Knock Off lure is great, and Thunder Wave is also really helpful for catching greedy Zard Xs.
Rotom-W: A
I've said it before, Thunder Wave Rotom is super underrated at the moment and this alone should keep it in A rank for now.

Celebi: B+
Yeah Celebi is pretty bad atm, at least bad enough to drop to B+. It really struggles to fit its moveset in, and gives set up to way too many things.

Reuniclus: B
Pretty overrated, I don't really like it too much. Can't set up very well against offense and only excels against really fat teams which aren't too common in the current meta.

Feraligatr: B+
Just super good.

Serperior: A-
So fucking predictable, has to have at least one Leaf Storm up to do anything and Weavile, Torn and Tran are really really common and makes Serp pretty poor.

Infernape: C+
I was thinking before that it should stay above, but now I think it's overrated. Don't like it overly much, would rather use Keldeo or something else in almost all situations. AoA set is a lot better than people give it credit for but still isn't amazing enough to tip it over the line.

Keldeo: A+
Keldeo checks are way too common to put it in S. I always found it underwhelming, water resists are everywhere and Scald isn;t as good as a lot of people give it credit for.

Dragalge: B
Toxic Spikes aren't great anymore cos of Clef, ground immunes and steels everywhere and Specs is just a long series of 50/50s and giving free switches directly afterwards. Zam, Weavile and others are getting more common as well.

Cobalion: ?
Dunno about this cos Taunt and a fast Fighting utility is hard to come by but it's piss weak and has to be naive if you're running HP Ice or otherwise, well

0- SpA Cobalion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 164-196 (39 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Magneton: B-
If Zone went up this probably should.

Tangrowth: B
Tangrowth is decent with AV but can be underwhelming... after one Leaf Storm it's setup fodder and it struggles fitting moves in to be good enough for B+ but B is the most suitable for Growth in my eyes.

Mega Aggron: C+
Gross counter, Altaria counter, TWaves Zard X lol and definitely deserves C+.

Gengar: A+
While it's bottom of the barrel in A+ it's still so fucking hard to find a switch for. Its speed is much worse than it used to be which leaves it open to being rked easily but nothing really switches in at all.

Tentacruel: B-
Just gets overwhelmed so easily.

Mega Ampharos: C+
OHKOes Dnite with zero investment through scale, has amazing bulk and keeps momentum easily. Really like it in the meta at the moment.
Hippowdon: A+
Was opposed to this last time it was nommed but shit, Hippo is just so bulky. It is a soft check to nearly everything in the game and is super reliable rocks. Should go up.

Mega Diancie: A
Similar to Gengar but not as versatile, Gengar can run so many different sets while Diancie really only has two sets and rp isnt that good.

Chesnaught: C+
Overwhelmed too easily. Weavile and Torn usage is super high, TankChomp beats it, heaps of things stop it and while SPikes are great it struggles getting them up.

M-Gallade: B+
I still think Gallade is OK - Shadow Sneak is actually getting better with Zam and Starmie running around a lot and this thing is still better than MMedi imo as it is better in every way except immediate power and after an SD it's ridiculously good.

Noivern: C-
eh not overly fussed over its rank but just made a team around it and it does OK, a lot better than I expected. Depending on coverage doesn't actually have any switchins except the blobs Chansey and Clef and possibly a few others but Taunt is really useful on almost all of its switchins. Pairs fairly well with LO Keldeo.

 

[EternalSnowman]

I have pretty made a post on most things in the current discussion. I will post on the remaining,

Tentacruel: This is one of the four grounded poison types that are viable in the metagame as of now, and brings some nice utility to teams. It's inherent special bulk, access to Knock Off, Scald, Rapid Spin and nice offensive movepool make it so its not complete set up bait, nice defensive pokemon, so Stay.

Hippodown: Move this thing up please. It brings nice utility with Sand Offense teams and Hippo Balance is always nice. It brings nice chip damage in terms of Sandstorm, is a premier rocks setter, access to Whirlwind is also nice. Overall it finds its way onto many teams as a defensive mon and I don't understand why this thing ever dropped to UU anyway. It can also find ways to screw over Zard-Y and such which is pretty funny. At any rate Move it up.

M-Diancie+M-Metagross: I think it should Stay. It has one of the best offensive coverage sets overall, and it is an amazing mixed wallbreaker. I don't know what people have against wallbreakers right now, since normally if you slap Magnezone/ton with a wallbreaker a good portion of defensive cores just get stopped. At any rate, I still believe it can stay in A+, M-Metagross has pretty much the same merits and is stronger, granted it has worse coverage but it still is amazing.

Coballion: This is one I am really puzzled as to why people are giving it shit. It makes one of the best possible Bulky Offense cores with M-Latias, as between them, they have no weakness and very few types hit them neutrally. Coballion also gets a wide array of support moves including Volt Switch, Thunder Wave, Taunt and Stealth Rock. It is not very splashable but it does its job very well as a defensive mon on the teams it needs to perform well on. Move it up.

The other mons I have either already made a post on or I don't have an opinion.

 

[bludz]

You guys realize that "Nomination: Agree/Disagree/Don't Care" with no reasoning is helpful to absolutely nobody. I get that people like to share their opinions but at least drop a line of reasoning in there.

Ferrothorn: A > A+
I don't agree. As someone else said why should this be above Skarmory? I mean I guess its typing its actually a little better but it lacks the reliable recovery. Fire and fighting type moves are extremely common and I don't see anything that's really changed to make Ferrothorn better. It's still really good but I haven't seen any reason for it to rise. Keep in A.

Magneton: C+ > B-
I suppose it makes sense if Magnezone rose again.

Tangrowth: B- > B/B+
So I don't really use this thing a whole lot but when I play against it I find it more annoying to deal with than Amoonguss and Chesnaught. I think the fact that it offers some form of offensive pressure (and utility in Knock Off) puts it above Amoonguss for the most part in this metagame and good mixed defenses with AV allow it to check more things than Chesnaught. I'm for a rise to B.

Gengar: A+ > A
I spoke on this briefly but I think it's a bit exaggerated. Okay Weavile Torn-T and Alakazam are more popular. But 2/3 don't switch in whatsoever and Torn's ability to switch in is limited pretty heavily by Stealth Rock which cuts down its Regenerator recovery significantly (and AV still takes a solid 50% from Sludge Wave). Gengar is still bound to do a lot of damage just about every time it comes in and it's one of the best stallbreakers in a tier that's still infested with fat balance. Wisp sets kinda ruin a lot of its switch-ins too. It should remain in A+ IMO.

Tentacruel: B > B-
Uh yeah this has sort of been a long time coming if you ask me. Can't spin on Rocky Chomp and the only things it checks reasonably are Clefable and Azumarill - which granted are nice to check - but in practice isn't the best answer to some of the things its supposed to answer like Keldeo and Zard Y. Toxic Spikes support is nice I guess but not even the most useful in this meta and Dragalge is definitely a better setter since it isn't so strapped to try and do different things. Send it to B- please.

Noivern: C- > D
Does anyone still use this? At all? I haven't seen one in forever and it just doesn't strike me as a threat. Weavile being popular doesn't help it at all. I think D is appropriate.

 

[Jaroda]

I just want to say I pretty much never regret using Celebi on a team its meant for. It's simply one of the best support mon in OU between its stats, movepool, Natural Cure, and good niche for a defensive Electric, Water and Fighting check. T-Wave Clefable is becoming a thing, and Celebi has always had this capability that I love to abuse, and in many ways has an easier time using it between its much better speed and neutral bulk. It doesn't even worry about Pursuit trappers between Baton Pass and Healing Wish. It paralyzes predictable Torn-T switch ins with ease, situationally can be a really good lure with Earth Power for Heatran, M-Manectric and Raikou, and is one of the few viable BP users of Nasty Plot, which is more significant now considering GeoPass/ShellPass can no longer be a thing. SpD sets are the way to go, I mean, it can even take certain SE attacks and cripple effectively.

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 134-158 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 9.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 103-122 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 299-354 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, with people saying Hippo balance is king, there is no way Celebi is less useful to drop to B+ rank. It simply does not care about bulky balance that rely on weak coverage moves or status to get pass tough checks or walls like Toxic BulkyChomp, Toxic Hippo, Scald/Flamethrower Slowbro, Rotom-W, etc. Keep Celebi A-

Noivern, why would I ever use this over Tornadus-T or Scarf Latios? Even in regards to Infiltrator, Crobat is far superior in every aspect. I say E rank, if not unranked.

Rotom-W, as I said in my last post, Rotom-W's downfalls are its predictability, far too easy to take advantage of for an A ranked mon for any decent player. I tend to find it underwhelming if I try to use it, or inconsistent with its accuracy. Time for a drop to A-, especially with an absent of Birdspam.

 

[Adaam]

Except again the caveat it is a check not a counter... Aside that you seem to think that Weavile users can reliably predict such switch ins with accuracy, and if it comes to a 1 vs 1 blow you seem to be forgetting Cobalion is coming out on top provided enough health.

It is rather narrow to believe that you'd somehow be unable to enter on 3 out of 4 moves -- especially when low kick itself is a hard pressed move to fit in given the competition with Pursuit (which is also rather popular for helping sweeps). The fact that it has 3 out of 4 moves (possibly even all 4 if you opt Pursuit over Low Kick) means it is a good enough check -- if that isn't a switch in opportunity for you I can't imagine otherwise. But hey if you're confident in your predictive skills with Weavile I'm somewhat at a loss why you'd suddenly lose that ability on Cobalion.

As for its niche it boils down more to being a good absorber of Knock off while taking advantage of that momentum to set up rocks or catch a defensive switch in with taunt. Which can be a bitch for defensive oriented teams, that despise the combination. Finally, there is one other thing that isn't mentioned here that Cobalion has over other supportive & offensive steels. Namely, speed which is why Cobalion is so able to set up SR/Taunt or revenge kill/check with a certain reliability.

Why do you need predictions to use Low kick lol? Cobalion switches into Knock Off and is subsequently outsped and killed by Low Kick unless it was completely healthy. How is that a check at all? If there is just one measley spike on the field Cobalion loses to Weavile if it switches on Knock Off. Low Kick also is MORE popular than Pursuit, further showing how Coba is not a check at all. That's like saying Heatran checks Diancie even though most destroy it with EP like how Cobalion is destroyed by Low kick.

But let's say Cobalion does check Weavile. It still shouldn't rise because of what's been said before, mainly it being disgustingly weak and because it doesn't even resist Fairy, making it a shaky at best fairy check. Altaria and Clef can tank an Iron Head if needed and cripple with Hyper Voice, Fire Blast, EQ, or T-Wave, Azu takes 0 from it, Gard actually gets OHKOd but Coba can't even switch in to any attack except psyshock. Too bad Gard spams Will-o and Hyper voice 99% of the time which both annihilate Coba. Diancie out speeds and kills with Earth Power unless Shuca berry. So at best Coba can switch into Bisharp, Weavile (I'm being really generous with this one), Scizor, force some of the tiers fairies out, while also being used as a free switch to half the tier. I question why anyone would use this over Scizor Or SpD Skarm with Iron Head if you need a Bisharp/Weavile check +Fairy killer, as Scizor and Skarm arent complete deadweight if the opponent doesn't have a certain mon (Bisharp/Scizor). Cobalion is a garbage mon and should not be raised

 

[Gladio]

Might as well throw myself into the fray and post my thoughts as well, although just regarding a selected group of the nominations (basically, the only ones I have experience with):

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Ferrothorn: A > A+:While, yes, it's quite splashable and checks/cripples with TWave a lot of stuff while also providing a Spikes/SR setter and a Fairy/Water check all in one convenient slot, I feel that such "versatility" kind of overloads it at times: it wants to do/wall a lot of stuff, but offensive pressure plus lack of reliable recovery keep it at bay most of the time; not to mention that a lot of threats that it's supposed to check often run coverage moves specifically (or at least, mostly) to lure it in and severely cripple/take it out (Ex.:Latios, Manaphy, Clefable). It's still very effective at what it does, but i'll disagree on this one.

Tentacruel: B > B-:It has some cool niches, like being a Rapid Spinner that fares decently against Gengar and is a good check to Clefable/EP-less Heatran, but TankChomp being extremely prominent and not having reliable recovery really blows. It also can't check all it wants at the same time (A more physically defensive spread makes it better at handling Keldeo's Specs Secret Sword, but now LO Gengar 2HKOes it with SR support and vice versa) and it's kind of weak without an Acid Spray SpDef drop. Agree.

M-Gallade: B+ > B:The metagame is really unkind to it (Tornadus-T getting traction and Altaria/Clef being as popular as ever certainly don't help) but I think that Gallade is still B+ worthy. While it doesn't have the wallbreaking power of Medicham nor Lopunny's speed, Gallade's stats and movepool allow it to act as a decent mix between the two, being able to wallbreak certain things the two can't at the same time (Cham is stopped by bulky Psychics {Lop too to an extent} and Lopunny has issues with Hippo and MegaVenu, while Gallade is able to break/severely weaken them all) and fare decently against offense (Base 80 speed with no Fake Out is an issue, but it can stomach some special assaults Medi would fold to and 110 Speed let it check things like Offensive Chomp and Keldeo). To make sure i'm not just requoting some of Gallade's niches, here's a couple of (decent-ish) replays where it puts some work:

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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-245359390
My opponent does use Machamp and Jolteon, but it was in the 1430s and it showcases Gallade's niches and the fact that 110 speed allows it to better handle a bunch of things (my opponent probably predicted a switch into Ferro or something similar at the last turn, but Gallade's higher allowed it to finish Pinsir off before it could throw a Return at him).

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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-215181086
Doesn't do much, but Gallade's access to Knock Off allow it to greatly weaken Slowbro, its craptastic ability makes sure Lop can't Fake-out+Return to kill it, and it finally beats Keldeo in the end without fearing a Specs HPump.

All things considered, I disagree on this one.

 

[Force Majeure]

First time doing this, let's see how I do.

It's going over pretty well with me.

We're missing something here in general about Noivern. It's niche is the combination of a few cool moves backed by a silly speed tier: Taunt + Roost differentiates it from Tornadus-T and Latios, and DM + U-Turn allows you to hit and run whereas Latios has to deal with a pursuit weakness. Super fang is also situationally useful. I reject out of hand any suggestion that it should move to E or Unranked. That being said, I'm fine with it moving to D because the meta is comparatively unfriendly to it and it's always been hard for it to apply enough consistent offensive pressure as DM has an undesirable side effect and Hurricane has subpar accuracy.

 

[Jaroda]

Again, I don't see how Noivern even has much niche over Crobat who isn't ranked currently yet sports all those same benefits as well as a few unique ones. It too has Infiltrator Taunt, Roost, U-turn, and Super Fang, and being even faster sitting at 130 Speed. Their defenses are humorously identical yet Crobat has a niche secondary Poison typing, and actually 3 4x resistances and one immunity, meaning it can actually switch in on a few things and actually threaten some Fairies with Poison STAB. So I don't see Noivern having a relevant niche over anything honestly, and the more I think about it the more I'm perplexed at how it is ranked and Crobat isn't considering the meta and its good offensive and defensive typing for its role. It's even kind of funny in that it utterly cockblocks Tankchomp now that I think about it with Taunt, who can only use Dragon Tail, which does nothing if you chose to ran Substitute lol. Funny.

 

[North Gate]

Cobalion does have access to Volt Switch.

The claim that people say Cobalion gives free switches into half the tier is a lie, while Hippo, Fatchomp, Lando-T, and Thundurus-T can switch into Volt Switch, it's not like it isn't obvious. Cobalion doubles its niche as a Fairy-type check and Knock Off absorber with being a decent pivot, no shit it's weak, it's Cobalion. Cobalion, however, doesn't sap all your momentum and allow your opponent to do whatever they want when it comes to switch ins because of Volt Switch. Bulky grounds might still be an issue, but a lot of the time it's super easy to tell when someone will switch in a bulky ground to your imminent Volt Switch, and you can try to predict accordingly.

Although predictions go both ways, so it can end up fucking you over if you're not careful.

That aside, my opinions on the discussion slate below.

WORDS

Mega Metagross to A+: I still disagree with this, 4MSS is team dependant and is a shitty argument to use for this things drop. It has moves to get past virtually all of its checks and still hits like a truck. People also say it doesn't have versatility in its sets, which quite frankly, I also disagree with. There's Sub PuP, Hone Claws, Agility/Rock Polish, All Out Attacker, and Pursuit. That's some versatility, more than Charizard X's imo.
Ferrothorn: A > A+ Disagree. Ferrothorn gets overwhelmed a lot, it's a good Spike stacker though. To me, Ferrothorn is just a sitting duck in a lot of scenarios.
Rotom-W: A > A- Agree. Rotom-W is still good, but honestly a lot of the things it is supposed to check, AKA birdspam, are able to get around it. It's annoying for offense builds sure, but honestly I still think that Rotom-W has fallen from the grace it once had.
Celebi: A- > B+ Sadly enough, agree. Metagame is seriously not kind to it. Weavile and Bisharp are at a high, Pursuit trapping is common, Bulky Tyranitar doesn't take much from Giga Drain either. It also hates U-Turn, which sucks.
Reuniclus: B+ > B Agree. Reuni is a tough stallbreaker to take down, and it hits like a comet if given enough boosts.
Feraligatr: B > B+ Abstain.
Serperior: A- > A Disagree. If Serp can't Leaf Storm, it sucks, plain and simple. Forcing it into a position where Leaf Storm is the least viable option to spam is not that hard to do and makes Serp piss weak, which is why I dislike Serp.
Infernape: B- > C+ Abstain.
Keldeo: A+ > S Agree. If you don't pack a check to this thing, you are probably fucked. At least on balance builds, which are my favorite playstyle. Sub/Cm sets rock and Specs set hit like comets as well, and can threaten balance builds just as easily if given the right openings.
Dragalge: B+ > B Abstain.
Cobalion: C+ > B- Agree. Cobalion, as I stated above, isn't a total momentum killer and actually is a good Knock Off absorber and fairy check.
Magneton: C+ > B- Agree. The ability to revenge kill Tornadus-T, Weavile, and Alakazam on offense is really cool, while having the same uttility Magnezone has.
Tangrowth: B- > B/B+ Abstain.
Mega Aggron: C > C+ Abstain.
Gengar: A+ > A Hell no. Gengar may not be up to par with speed, but it still hits like a truck and all of its switchins are either garbage (or SpDef Hippo.) or only switch in a grand total of one time. (Looking at you Torn-T...)
Tentacruel: B > B- Disagree. It's weak, sure, but its a great Azumarill check. Seriously though, fuck Azu. It also can use Toxic Spikes, a somewhat rare move, it just wishes it had recovery.
Mega Ampharos: C > C+ Abstain.
Hippowdon: A > A+ Agree. SpDef Hippo can siwtch into Gengar. yay. It switches into a lot of stuff, makes itself at home on a lot of physical threats, and checks Mega Gross. All in one, fatass, hippo package. Gotta love it.
Mega Diancie: A+ > A Disagree. Mega DIancie isn't given enough credit, it's a huge threat (and all my teams are weak to it ffs), Calm Mind and Sharpen sets can break down stall and fat balance teams, while Rock Polish is good against offense. The 3 attacks + Tect set is its worst set and is mediocre at best, so don't judge it soley on that.
Chesnaught: B- > C+ Abstain.
M-Gallade: B+ > B Agree. Man this thing has fallen from grace, it really just pales in comparison as a wallbreaker to Mega Cross, Mega Medi, and Mega Gross. Ironically, it does have advantages but really, Knock Off and Shadow Sneak are the only advantages it has, and that's not good enough to warrant it being in the same rank as something serperior superior to it.
Noivern: C- > D Agree. This thing's niches have all gone down into the rings of hell at this point, and Infiltrator is done better by Crobat, so... yeah. It's garb tbh.

 

[Sochlo]

I feel like "Serperior is really weak without a boost" is a pretty dumb argument. If you're competent at all and have used Serperior at least once you would know that you don't send it in unless you're sure you're gonna be clicking Leaf Storm that turn. Who actually cares if you have Ferrothorn and unboosted HP Fire doesn't kill it? That scenario NEVER happens, Ferro will be eating a Leaf Storm followed up with +2 HP Fire. Provided you're running Life Orb or Miracle Seed unboosted Leaf Storm still hurts, so none of that Clefable shit. This is a Pokemon whose +2 setup move is a STAB 130 BP attack that forces a lot of switches, go find a better reason other than "it's weak without boosts". Then there's Glare.

It's not meant to sweep 1v6, it's meant to clean up late game and it is ridiculously good at what it does.

 

[heritage]

Gonna keep this a bit short on account of being busy but I guess I might as well give some opinions.

Mega Metagross: Down to A+

This is something that I don't agree with. Yes, the metagame has adapted to it in unfavorable ways, however Metagross still has immense power behind its attacks and has ways to widdle down its supposed checks, whether it be Ice Punch or Grass Knot. Sure, it may have low Speed before mega evolution, but the funny thing is, even with 70 base speed it still manages to force out so much of the metagame based on its phenomenal bulk and even its typing to an extent, especially Pokemon like Clefable, Celebi, and Latios (if Latios desires to get damage off, you can say goodbye to it) leading to a generally safe mega. Most players won't just throw out their Metagross on something it can't mega on anyways. Sure it can't beat every Pokemon in the metagame, but nothing can. So yeah, deserves to stay S rank based on its speed and firepower alone.

Rotom-W: Down to A-

Agree with this one. Rotom-W is very easy to overwhelm, whether it be through Burns or Toxic, repeated switch ins or Stealth Rock. It's also pretty weak as well, and although having Will-O-Wisp and Volt Switch is nice to spread Burns around, it's generally down to half health or less before it can do both of those. Even things like Talonflame and Torn-T can wear it down through repeated switch ins, especially Tornadus, which can actually beat Rotom thanks to Knock Off and Regen. Birdspam is on the decline, while things like Serperior, special Mega Altaria and SD Charizard X getting more common. Drop it.

Celebi: Down to B+

Agree. Celebi not only loses to the majority of the metagame right now, but its typing leaves it weak to common Flying-, Bug- and Dark-type moves, especially the ever common Knock Off and U-Turn. Weavile, Talonflame and Bisharp completely shit on it, and it rarely has time to do anything other than sit there and try to Recover spam while the other side of the field sets up. Drop this.

Serperior: Up to A

Agree. Serperior's 130 base power Nasty Plot wears down so many of its supposed checks really fast, and being able to cripple supposed switch ins like Torn, Talonflame and Charizard with Glare is pretty nice as well. People complain about its Fire-, Grass-, and Dragon coverage, but honestly that kind of coverage isn't that bad. The only things that beat that are Heatran and Altaria, Altaria of which is actually overwhelmed by Leaf Storm if it tries to switch in. Its Speed tier is also fantastic, being able to outpace Pokemon like Latios and Gengar that reside in the crowded 110 Speed tier. Certainly deserves a rise.

Keldeo: Up to S

Completely agree with this. Keldeo tears apart a huge portion of the metagame with its dual STABs alone. Specs hits like an absolute monster, dealing upwards of 70% to AV Torn-T with Hydro Pump and 50% to Latios, both of which lose to Icy Wind lol. SubCM is able to break most of balance on its own. Keldeo may be a bit over-prepared for, but that doesn't mean it doesn't beat a huge majority of the unprepared metagame. Just as a bonus, I'm pretty sure everybody knows how spam-able Scald is, being able to wear down its supposed checks pretty easily with Burn damage each turn. Unlike other Scald users, this actually has a whole bunch of power behind it. I've been messing around with the Life Orb set recently, and being able to switch moves on incoming Pokemon such as Clefable and Sableye is really nice. This deserves to be S, certainly more than Clefable lol

Mega Diancie: Down to A

Abstain on this one. Mega Diancie does have a hard time getting a mega evolution off and has a pretty bad typing that leaves it weak to Steel, Water and especially Ground type attacks, but on the other hand, after mega evolution, it's able to push its way through so many offensive teams thanks to its good speed tier and crazy offensive stats with decently high-powered STAB attacks. And although its typing has some common weaknesses, it also provides a pretty cool check to Dragon and Flying types, especially Charizard X lacking Earthquake and Tornadus-T. Diancie fits both categories pretty well.

Noivern: Down to D

Agree. Noivern has little niche in the metagame aside from Infiltrator Taunt and Switcheroo. This is such a small niche in an otherwise completly outclassed Pokemon. I don't think it should go unranked completely, but a drop to D is certainly deserved.

edit: oh well that didn't turn out short at all oops