Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[EternalSnowman]

Why do you need predictions to use Low kick lol? Cobalion switches into Knock Off and is subsequently outsped and killed by Low Kick unless it was completely healthy. How is that a check at all? If there is just one measley spike on the field Cobalion loses to Weavile if it switches on Knock Off. Low Kick also is MORE popular than Pursuit, further showing how Coba is not a check at all. That's like saying Heatran checks Diancie even though most destroy it with EP like how Cobalion is destroyed by Low kick.

But let's say Cobalion does check Weavile. It still shouldn't rise because of what's been said before, mainly it being disgustingly weak and because it doesn't even resist Fairy, making it a shaky at best fairy check. Altaria and Clef can tank an Iron Head if needed and cripple with Hyper Voice, Fire Blast, EQ, or T-Wave, Azu takes 0 from it, Gard actually gets OHKOd but Coba can't even switch in to any attack except psyshock. Too bad Gard spams Will-o and Hyper voice 99% of the time which both annihilate Coba. Diancie out speeds and kills with Earth Power unless Shuca berry. So at best Coba can switch into Bisharp, Weavile (I'm being really generous with this one), Scizor, force some of the tiers fairies out, while also being used as a free switch to half the tier. I question why anyone would use this over Scizor Or SpD Skarm with Iron Head if you need a Bisharp/Weavile check +Fairy killer, as Scizor and Skarm arent complete deadweight if the opponent doesn't have a certain mon (Bisharp/Scizor). Cobalion is a garbage mon and should not be raised

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Cobalion: 200-237 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is an defensive pivot that I use in conjunction with M-Latias on Bulky Offense. It gets free Stealth Rocks or just outright kills something. I use this because it beats all the mons, other than ZardX, that are able to threaten M-Latias, namely Weavile, Bisharp, Dragonite, M-Alt, M-Meta. If it can't outright beat something, you can always Thunder Wave them and then Volt Switch out to the appropriate check/counter. It's access to utility is really what makes it stand above others. Although Fairies like M-Gardevoir threatens them, T-Wave it and then M-Garde is done. That's whats so great about, T-Wave invalidates many of its counters, and it gets momentum with Volt Switch. It's defensive typing and nice bulk is just the icing on the cake. This isn't even including it's access to Taunt and Stealth Rock, both of which are amazing support moves. It shouldn't only be classified by it's offensive pivot set.

 

[koista12]

I won't comment on everything, just the things I can speak knowledgeably about:

Mega Metagross: S to A+

Agree

While on paper megagross is still suspect worthy, realistically it lacks the ability to break through common defensive cores without perfect prediction, because its STABs alone dont offer great coverage. When you combine this with how prone it is to being worn down by residual damage via spikes and rocky helmet, it just isn't S-rank worthy because the meta doesn't favor it as much as in say March. And the meta is shifting even further against it with the advent of AIDS incarnate yellow magic clef.

Ferrothorn: A to A+

Agree

Ferrothorn has always been a good pokemon, and its spikes stacking abilities are really useful right now. there havent been any noticeable metagame trends against it, other than rise of Zard-x, and ferrothorn can run rocky helmet to dissaude zard from sweeping, while also wearing down weaviles and the like. Overall, its ability to fit on common balance cores (hippo + clef + ferro anyone?) and lay down spikes makes it an A+ pokemon, albeit one of the weaker ones.

Celebi: A- to B+

Agree

This has been due for a while now. Metagame trends such as in increase in weavile, tornadus-t, and alakazam (who beat celebi 1v1 with taunt and sub) have finally caught up to the onion pixie, and sub cm keldeo isnt as threatening to balance as it was in the spring. While celebi can run a variety of sets, such as defensive with t wave, baton pass, and a nasty plot lure set none of those sets are too great in this metagame and even together, they cant help celebi get around the metagame trends.

Gengar: A+ to A

Agree

gengar isnt bad per se, but ist speed tier isnt what it used to be, and while gengar doesnt have any reliable switch-ins, anything that isnt OHKOed by it and has more offensive presence than Chansey can force it out in 1v1 situation. Offense is getting really fast, and gengar just cant do as well against offense as it used to. Please drop

Keldeo: A+ to S

Agree

While I know I just said sub cm keldeo isnt as threatening to balance as it used to be, keldeo's choice sets are spectacular in this metagame, and dont really have that many great switch-ins (specs should run icy wind imo). Offense is hard pressed to find a switch-in to specs keldeo and the popularity of dark types really helps keldeo

 

[Machi]

Why do you need predictions to use Low kick lol? Cobalion switches into Knock Off and is subsequently outsped and killed by Low Kick unless it was completely healthy. How is that a check at all? If there is just one measley spike on the field Cobalion loses to Weavile if it switches on Knock Off. Low Kick also is MORE popular than Pursuit, further showing how Coba is not a check at all. That's like saying Heatran checks Diancie even though most destroy it with EP like how Cobalion is destroyed by Low kick.

But let's say Cobalion does check Weavile. It still shouldn't rise because of what's been said before, mainly it being disgustingly weak and because it doesn't even resist Fairy, making it a shaky at best fairy check. Altaria and Clef can tank an Iron Head if needed and cripple with Hyper Voice, Fire Blast, EQ, or T-Wave, Azu takes 0 from it, Gard actually gets OHKOd but Coba can't even switch in to any attack except psyshock. Too bad Gard spams Will-o and Hyper voice 99% of the time which both annihilate Coba. Diancie out speeds and kills with Earth Power unless Shuca berry. So at best Coba can switch into Bisharp, Weavile (I'm being really generous with this one), Scizor, force some of the tiers fairies out, while also being used as a free switch to half the tier. I question why anyone would use this over Scizor Or SpD Skarm with Iron Head if you need a Bisharp/Weavile check +Fairy killer, as Scizor and Skarm arent complete deadweight if the opponent doesn't have a certain mon (Bisharp/Scizor). Cobalion is a garbage mon and should not be raised

You know there are statistics available right? If you check statistics the difference in % between pursuit and low kick is very small, meaning they definitely are a close competition to each other. I am not denying it is popular but at the same time that isn't to say low kick doesn't come close as an alternative. Hell, its even on your analysis page on the site.


It isn't rising because it checks Weavile it does because of providing utility in rocks/taunt/volt-switch while having the ability to threaten a fairy/dark type due to its typing. Simply put, it is a utility mon that isn't necessarily a free switch, so just because the opponent doesn't have a Bisharp or Tyranitar won't render it moot.

 

[teamsnickers]

This is going to sound crazy to some but im going to nom mega gyarados for s rank.... Its counters are soft at best and it can run a variety of sets and spreads.... It is currently thriving in the meta rn and its bulk is insane...
Its dual stabs crunch and waterfall make for excellent coverage and it can run a variety of moves like earthquake ice fang taunt sub rest talk etc. With mold breaker dragon dance becomes even more deadly and this is a mon whos equally as deadly against all types of teams, as all the current s rank mons rn (with the exception of maybe mega gross)
This is a really underrated mon in the land of mega scizor mega zard x mega metagross mega alt etc, but its really viable rn and just destroys every type of team, It can run ice fang to avoid being walled by mega altaria, eq to get more damage on keldeo hit rotom w better etc. Mega gyarados can set up at will doesn't have a crippling weakness and has a great ability bulk and just raw power.... Its extremely unpredictable and can run a variety of sets and moves all extremely effectively. Its better now than ever with the rise of tornadus t weavile and hippo, Mega dos is extremly easy to build around and has A VERY SMALL AMOUNT of true checks http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-checks-compendium-read-post-72.3532549/
CALCS
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 164-194 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 156-186 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(maybe the best example of its amazing bulk)
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 254-302 (76.7 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[blank]

guess this is what all the cool kids are doin ;^)

Pokemon I covered in here:

opinions + some explanation

Mega Metagross (S > A+): Agree. While I do think Mega Metagross stands out in comparison to all the other A+ rank Pokemon, I also think it really has no business in S ATM. Mega Metagross is very powerful; Mega Metagross is a threat. HOWEVER, like most people have been saying, Mega Meta is something lots of people prepare for now (Mega Scizors everywhere), and it isn't as diverse as other S rank pokemon.

Ferrothorn (A > A+): Disagree. Ferrothorn is an excellent bulk/support Pokemon; it has access to Leech Seed, Spikes/SR, ThunderWave, and Iron Barbs is a very nice ability. The thing is: Ferrothorn lacks a reliable form of recovery, and it's weak to 2 very common (and very good) offensive types. I've seen people mention "why is Ferro A+ material but Skarmory isn't?", and I 100% agree with that.

Rotom-W (A > A-): Agree. Not much to say here really... Rotom-W is a really nice bulky water and a great Birdspam counter, but the thing is definitely prepared for by now. People are running enough shit to handle Rotom-W. Also, it really only has the 1 physically defensive set; Scarf and specially defensive are pretty ass lol.

Celebi (A- > B+): Disagree. Celebi is a great support Pokemon. It has enough bulk to run a physically bulky set, a specially bulky set, or a mixed bulk set, it has a great ability, it has nice typing, and it has an excellent support movepool. Celebi can support more offensive teams without hurting momentum too much thanks to SD/CM/Sub/Nasty Pass or Healing Wish, it can spread para with TWave, it can provide SR support, it can force out set up sweepers with Perish Song, it can provide cleric support with Heal Bell (and Leech Seed sorta), etc. Also, you can run moves like Earth Power/HP Fire for a more offensive Baton Pass.

Reuniclus (B+ > B): Disagree. Reuniclus is a really great fat Psychic. Its CM set is probably its main one, but it also has offensive Trick Room, Specs + Future Sight, more offensive LO options, as well as some other options like Colbur Berry and Regen Pivot (these aren't that great tho lol). On the Trick Room set: I've used this set on NON-TR teams a couple times. It's very nice on balanced/bulky offense builds (AKA what Reuni works really nicely on), and it's a nice way of tripping up opposing offense teams.

Feraligatr (B > B+): Agree. Gatr is a nice alternative to Azumarill, but it's also a bit more than that. Gatr's SD + Aqua Jet set isn't too good IMO, but this is where I feel Feraligatr can be a nice alternative to BD Azumarill. Feraligatr's Dragon Dance set is what sets him apart from Azu IMO. DDance allows Gatr to easily wallbreak, and it isn't total ass against offense.

Keldeo (A+ > S): Disagree. Keldeo is a GREAT Pokemon, but I don't think it's worthy of S. While it's nice that Keldeo checks Weavile (which is obviously getting more and more popular), Bisharp, and all that other stuff, that isn't much of a reason for it to rise. It's still rather predictable; it has a shallow movepool and like 3 popular sets (Specs, Scarf, SubCM). I feel like it has the potential to be S (again) in the near future, but that's only if 1.) we see even MORE of a rise in usage of the things it checks and 2.) we see sets like CM + 3 attacks, Mystic Water/ EBelt, and more rise in popularity.

Dragalge (B+ > B): Disagree. Dragalge has some nice bulky offensive sets in Draco Plate/Specs, but it also has nice bulky/support sets. IMO Poison + Dragon is really nice typing defensively, and Dragalge further takes advantage of this by not being passive as hell (thanks Adaptability), and with Toxic Spikes. There are other TSpikes users out there, but Dragalge is one of the better ones because of its combination of solid bulk + solid defensive typing + ability to hit back + Scald.

Magneton (C+ > B-): Disagree. The only thing Magneton has > Magnezone is the ability to outspeed shit like Torn-T and Weavile (and other shit I'm forgetting ATM) when Scarfed. While this is nice, in most cases, that extra bit of bulk and power that Zone provides is much more desirable. Magneton has a nice niche, but that niche + Zone rising isn't enough for it to rise.

Gengar (A+ > A): Disagree. Even with Weavile and Torn-T becoming more common and Pursuit users running around, I think Gengar is still a really threatening and diverse Pokemon that's worthy of A+. Not much really walls the thing (outside of shit like AV Torn-T and Mega Scizor which are rising), it has excellent offensive coverage, and it can run some cool sets like stallbreaker, Hex, Sash D-Bond, Scarf, etc. While it is true that stuff that beats Gengar like Mega Scizor, (AV) Torn-T, and Weavile are rising, that isn't enough for it to drop to A IMO.

Mega Ampharos (C > C+): Agree. Mega Ampharos has really nice defensive typing and stats, a nice support movepool, great offensive moves, and a great ability. NastyPass + Mega Ampharos or just plain agility Mega Amphy is a really nice breaker thanks to the aforementioned offensive movepool + Mold Breaker, but I feel like its more bulky/support options are overlooked. Amphy is fat, but like Dragalge, it isn't passive as balls. You can run the pretty neat RestTalk set, or you can go for some different options like Heal Bell/Discharge. Also, with Torn-T being all the rage nowadays, I feel like that gives these bulky Mega Ampharos more of a purpose than before, and with these lower viability Pokemon, a little niche like that can mean a lot :p

Hippowdon (A > A+): Agree. Hippowdon is such a HUGE Pokemon right now; the thing has a type of balance named after him (Hippo Balance). Hippowdon is the best bulky ground type IMO; while Lando-T and Bulky Garchomp can work a bit better on more offensive builds due to not being as fat + being more offensively capable, Hippo wins due to being the fat one lol. As we all know, this thing can run mixed bulk sets, specially bulky sets, and physically bulky sets (usually better on stall/fatter builds). It has great support moves like SR, Whirlwind/Roar, Toxic, it has a nice recovery option, it has Sand Stream for sand teams/cores, and it just plain handles lots of common threats like Char-X and Talonflame which is always nice. Not to mention the mixed bulk/specially defensive sets work really nicely on balance considering they aren't so fat that they totally kill momentum. I could go on here but eh... lots of other people are doing a better job of supporting this nom :p

Noivern (C- > D): Agree. lol why is this thing in C- i have literally only seen like 2

No comment on Serperior, Infernape, Tangrowth, Cobalion, Mega Aggron, Chesnaught, Tentacruel, Mega Gallade, and Mega Diancie because I haven't had enough experience with these to provide some decent opinions + I got lazy.

 

[AM]

Not sure why you'd put M-Gyarados at S when it's so dependent on which move it's running to even function effectively and necessitates a Dragon Dance for the brunt of its power while stuff like M-Metagross can get by simply by cheesing through Meteor Mash, higher speed tier, access to Agility, and different coverage moves to pose an extreme threat to conventional bulky offense builds. M-Metagross might have this same issue but sporting a typing such as Steel and a monstrous defense set allows it to take the brunt of a lot of physical hits. Access to priority is nice as well. Then Char-X who's a monster dragon dancer where a lot of its conventional checks to even a higher degree than M-Metagross are kind of garbage since they either lose to prior damage, lose once it hits +1, or lose to a variant that wasn't prepped for such as SD or WillOWisp. Then M-Altaria who has defensive utility to compensate its offensive traits or create itself to be an offensive behemoth with most of its checks being very specific, extreme such as Sand Rush Excadrill, or stuff like Ferro and M-Scizor with the chance of it running Fire Blast can lure these. All the S rank megas are just more effective than it and even some of the A+ so putting the A+ stuff that is more on the verge of being S than M-Gyarados seems off.

 

[Cheryl.]

This is going to sound crazy to some but im going to nom mega gyarados for s rank.... Its counters are soft at best and it can run a variety of sets and spreads.... It is currently thriving in the meta rn and its bulk is insane...
Its dual stabs crunch and waterfall make for excellent coverage and it can run a variety of moves like earthquake ice fang taunt sub rest talk etc. With mold breaker dragon dance becomes even more deadly and this is a mon whos equally as deadly against all types of teams, as all the current s rank mons rn (with the exception of maybe mega gross)
This is a really underrated mon in the land of mega scizor mega zard x mega metagross mega alt etc, but its really viable rn and just destroys every type of team, It can run ice fang to avoid being walled by mega altaria, eq to get more damage on keldeo hit rotom w better etc. Mega gyarados can set up at will doesn't have a crippling weakness and has a great ability bulk and just raw power.... Its extremely unpredictable and can run a variety of sets and moves all extremely effectively. Its better now than ever with the rise of tornadus t weavile and hippo, Mega dos is extremly easy to build around and has A VERY SMALL AMOUNT of true checks http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-checks-compendium-read-post-72.3532549/
CALCS
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 164-194 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 156-186 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(maybe the best example of its amazing bulk)
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 254-302 (76.7 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

U beat me to it, i also wa gonna nom Mega Gyarados for S rank. It's such a threat with high attack, great STAB combo, and good bulk as well. While it has unfavorable matchups against some popular pokemon and it may not be at the standard of stuff like Clefable or Mega Altaria according to AM the ruiner of dreams, i support Mega Gyarados to S.

 

[teamsnickers]

Not sure why you'd put M-Gyarados at S when it's so dependent on which move it's running to even function effectively and necessitates a Dragon Dance for the brunt of its power while stuff like M-Metagross can get by simply by cheesing through Meteor Mash, higher speed tier, access to Agility, and different coverage moves to pose an extreme threat to conventional bulky offense builds. M-Metagross might have this same issue but sporting a typing such as Steel and a monstrous defense set allows it to take the brunt of a lot of physical hits. Access to priority is nice as well. Then Char-X who's a monster dragon dancer where a lot of its conventional checks to even a higher degree than M-Metagross are kind of garbage since they either lose to prior damage, lose once it hits +1, or lose to a variant that wasn't prepped for such as SD or WillOWisp. Then M-Altaria who has defensive utility to compensate its offensive traits or create itself to be an offensive behemoth with most of its checks being very specific, extreme such as Sand Rush Excadrill, or stuff like Ferro and M-Scizor with the chance of it running Fire Blast can lure these. All the S rank megas are just more effective than it and even some of the A+ so putting the A+ stuff that is more on the verge of being S than M-Gyarados seems off.

While most of this is true Mega gyarados actually has more bulk then mega gross alt and zard (its a push with gross but dos has intimidate) a standard ddance stab with taunt or sub is countered by VERY few mons (ferro kind of, and mega alt mainly) Similar to zard x alot of its "checks" are shitty as well. Mega gyarados Zard x adn mega alt are share a common trait of being AMAZING against all types of teams and setting up at will.... Mega gyarados while not have the typing of either of them doesnt take 50 percent from rocks and is not weak to priority besides mach punch. This is a metagame FILLED with hippo, weavile, tornadus t,and rn for set up sweepres alot of teams are running unaware mons which mega gyarados breaks through with mold breaker IMO mega gyarados deserves s rank just because of how easily it can set up and the sheer power/bulk it has, I think you guys are overrating the checks it has there's VERY few of them (and they're soft checks besides mega alt) and mega gyarados actually beats clefable 1v1

 

[Alfalfa]

While most of this is true Mega gyarados actually has more bulk then mega gross alt and zard (its a push with gross but dos has intimidate) a standard ddance stab with taunt or sub is countered by VERY few mons (ferro kind of, and mega alt mainly) Similar to zard x alot of its "checks" are shitty as well. Mega gyarados Zard x adn mega alt are share a common trait of being AMAZING against all types of teams and setting up at will.... Mega gyarados while not have the typing of either of them doesnt take 50 percent from rocks and is not weak to priority besides mach punch. This is a metagame FILLED with hippo, weavile, tornadus t,and rn for set up sweepres alot of teams are running unaware mons which mega gyarados breaks through with mold breaker IMO mega gyarados deserves s rank just because of how easily it can set up and the sheer power/bulk it has

AM stated that the S Ranks have higher versatility and less dependence on team support than Mega Gyara does, neither of which you acknowledged in this post

 

[teamsnickers]

AM stated that the S Ranks have higher versatility and less dependence on team support than Mega Gyara does, neither of which you acknowledged in this post

AM stated that the S Ranks have higher versatility and less dependence on team support than Mega Gyara does, neither of which you acknowledged in this post

IMO Mega gyara actually requires less team support.... Mega char x REQUIRES a spinner/defogger,Mega metagross is likely being dropped, and mega altaria team always need something to handle talonflame and mega venusaur.... There's honestly is not any hard checks for mega gyarados besides mega altaria(and keldeo but thats debatable) with just dual stabs taunt/sub and ddance set..... You can actually make the case that mega alt and mega char x teams require MORE team support then gyarados, and before the mega you can switch in on a psychical attacking mon with intimation and set up on it with its MASSIVE bulk... Not many things want to switch in on a mega gyarados anything after a dragon dance.... even before a dragon dance this is a very powerful mon but its highly unlikely that you will get any status on mega gyarados or stop it from setting up because of taunt/sub AND its massive bulk mega gyarados honestly needs little/no team support to cripple a team


EDIT: azumarill is a check i didnt mention

 

[green gadgets]

Okay so here's my post about the changes. I'm definitly no pro - whatever.

Hide

Mega Metagross: S > A+ Agree. Megagross have Uber stats and a powerful ability. It punches holes at unprepared teams but what's unprepared? The rise of Hippo and M-Scizor is big deal. TankChomp is one of the most usage mons atm and things like Bisharp can Sucker Punch it. If it gets paralysed or burned, it's dead weight. I think it is not the best in A+, but definitly top 3.

Ferrothorn: A > A+ Disagree. with the rise of Hippo, Weavile and Torn-T it got itself more usage, yes, but every team have a fire attack and mostly defog/rapid spin. It shouldn't be higher ranked as Skarmory. Skarm can defog, tailwind or taunt and has no quadruple weakness.

Rotom-W: A > A- Agree. I hate it. I really hate this mon. It's annoying, it's bulky and have sometimes Rest wich is really annoying but! It lacks a real recovery move and it doesn't need a real counter 'cause it's easy to handle. With no recovery moves stealth rock really hurts and it can easily forced out. Kyube is getting more usage and Mold Breaker Excadrill is more common now.

Celebi: A- > B+ Agree. Celebi and her movepool can be used as 3 different pokemons, but the main problem is, that it tries that at the same time. Weavile and M-Scizor is rising and that's bad for Celebi. When the meta can handle Weavile and M-Scizor it'll rises without tought.

Reuniclus: B+ > B Agree. Yes you can play Trick Room. Yes you can run Specs + Future Sight. But, Trick Room needs a team for or at least 2-3 more mons that benefits from. Specs + Future Sight hits like a truck. I played it for a couple weeks. The main problem is that when you use Future Sight you are forced to switch. It takes momentum to use it. When it run Regenerator entry hazard is a big problem. Calm Mind is an option, but I find it more suitable in B right now.


Feraligatr: B > B+ Never used it. No Comment.


Serperior: A- > A Agree. This thing is a monster! When I first saw it at OverUsed I coudn't believe it (same with Clefable at S-Rank) but after using it a few times I'm a big fan (again like Clefable, in my Opinion it's the best S-Rank right now) Teams have to play an answer to this and his friend otherwise it's 6-0.


Infernape: B- > C+ whatever.


Keldeo: A+ > S Disagree. Right now, not really S-Rank. But when it get's a useful ability, yes :D I mean WTF, it's one of the best in A+ and that without an ability...

Dragalge: B+ > B whatever.

Cobalion: C+ > B- whatever.

Magneton: C+ > B- I didn't know that it was ranked... I like Magnezone a lot so I can understand why it sees usage, but with Knock Off beeing the best move in the game... I don't know.

Tangrowth: B- > B/B+ whatever. Never used it.

Mega Aggron: C > C+ OverUsed is full with lots of good Megas. Why would I every use this instead of another? It's a niche not more.

Gengar: A+ > A Agree. Gengar is the only viable non Mega Poison Type out there in OU. Yes Poison hits Fairy for SE Damage, but Steel do as well. It may be a good offense Mon, but the defensive capabilities are a lot worse right now. It's a good Spinblocker and good Wallbreaker, but not A+. Knock Off is everywhere, Pursuit just behind, so yeah it should drop.

Tentacruel: B > B- Agree. I never liked it. It's too frail to be really a wall. It got Knock Off/Acid Spray/Scald/T-Spikes/Rapid Spin and so on. The movepool is not the problem why it should drop. I hope it gets soon a Mega Evo so it can be really a wall.

Mega Ampharos: C > C+ Like I said before OverUsed is full off good Megas. But the arguments for rising sounds ok for me. Doesn't care at all.

Hippowdon: A > A+ Agree. When I saw it in UnderUsed a tear rolled down my cheek. I'm so happy that it's soo good right now. It should rise. All arguments for the rise can be found by others.

Mega Diancie: A+ > A Disagree. Protect + 3 Moves is really good. Good Speed and phenomenal Attack Stats. Magic Bounce is nothing to laugh at. It can lure in things with Earth Power or Hidden Power. The rise of Hippo and M-Scizor is not in her favor. But it seems good at A+.


Chesnaught: B- > C+ Whatever.

M-Gallade: B+ > B Whatever.

Noivern: C- > D I think it can be unraked. So nominate for unranked. lol.

M-Gyarados for S-Rank Disagree. Mold Breaker is really good as it can defeat Quagsire or Clefable, but the only thing he do is Dragon Dance and there it is outclassed by M-Altaria and Chard X.

I would nominate Quasire B - > C+. It's typing is really great. It can come in on so many things and ScaldBurn/Toxic it, do notable damage with Earthquake and can heal itself with Recover/Rest. While Leftover is a good item for it you can slap a Rocky Helmet with Rest on it and can cripple every physical attackers. It can build a good "Core like" with Clef.

 

[AM]

While most of this is true Mega gyarados actually has more bulk then mega gross alt and zard (its a push with gross but dos has intimidate) a standard ddance stab with taunt or sub is countered by VERY few mons (ferro kind of, and mega alt mainly) Similar to zard x alot of its "checks" are shitty as well. Mega gyarados Zard x adn mega alt are share a common trait of being AMAZING against all types of teams and setting up at will.... Mega gyarados while not have the typing of either of them doesnt take 50 percent from rocks and is not weak to priority besides mach punch. This is a metagame FILLED with hippo, weavile, tornadus t,and rn for set up sweepres alot of teams are running unaware mons which mega gyarados breaks through with mold breaker IMO mega gyarados deserves s rank just because of how easily it can set up and the sheer power/bulk it has

Bulk also needs to take into consideration typing with M-Gyarados sporting a Dark type and being susceptible to the present Thunder Wave Clefable on most balanced builds. It needs to bank on a Waterfall flinch under most circumstances to break through this set and doesn't change the fact that as great as Ice Fang is, it's not killing Mega Altaria and there goes Mega Gyarados in one blow. Charizards rock weakness is offset by it access to recovery with Roost. M-Gyarados saving grace is access to Taunt and its 3 attack set but as stated previously it necessitates the right coverage move and it also needs some hard checks to it out of the picture before it can go on a roll and sweep. Sub DDance M-Gyarados I think is an opportunity cost by itself so there's not really a strong argument for this to be the variant that you're implying should solidify its S rank placement. I can put maybe 3 other things in S before I would consider M-Gyarados, albeit not going to go into detail and incite the inevitable shit storm of side tracking the discussion points. Mega Alt and Mega Char-X most definitely do not necessitate more team support as mentioned in the comment prior to this. Look at all the games, general high ladder play and Wcop where these two are used on and how they function in an effective manner. M-Metagross is being suggested to drop due to its lack of centralization so at which point is M-Gyarados is even more centralizing than Mega Metagross or even Mega Scizor for that matter?

 

[Cheryl.]

Okay so here's my post about the changes. I'm definitly no pro - whatever.

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Mega Metagross: S > A+ Agree. Megagross have Uber stats and a powerful ability. It punches holes at unprepared teams but what's unprepared? The rise of Hippo and M-Scizor is big deal. TankChomp is one of the most usage mons atm and things like Bisharp can Sucker Punch it. If it gets paralysed or burned, it's dead weight. I think it is not the best in A+, but definitly top 3.

Ferrothorn: A > A+ Disagree. with the rise of Hippo, Weavile and Torn-T it got itself more usage, yes, but every team have a fire attack and mostly defog/rapid spin. It shouldn't be higher ranked as Skarmory. Skarm can defog, tailwind or taunt and has no quadruple weakness.

Rotom-W: A > A- Agree. I hate it. I really hate this mon. It's annoying, it's bulky and have sometimes Rest wich is really annoying but! It lacks a real recovery move and it doesn't need a real counter 'cause it's easy to handle. With no recovery moves stealth rock really hurts and it can easily forced out. Kyube is getting more usage and Mold Breaker Excadrill is more common now.

Celebi: A- > B+ Agree. Celebi and her movepool can be used as 3 different pokemons, but the main problem is, that it tries that at the same time. Weavile and M-Scizor is rising and that's bad for Celebi. When the meta can handle Weavile and M-Scizor it'll rises without tought.

Reuniclus: B+ > B Agree. Yes you can play Trick Room. Yes you can run Specs + Future Sight. But, Trick Room needs a team for or at least 2-3 more mons that benefits from. Specs + Future Sight hits like a truck. I played it for a couple weeks. The main problem is that when you use Future Sight you are forced to switch. It takes momentum to use it. When it run Regenerator entry hazard is a big problem. Calm Mind is an option, but I find it more suitable in B right now.


Feraligatr: B > B+ Never used it. No Comment.


Serperior: A- > A Agree. This thing is a monster! When I first saw it at OverUsed I coudn't believe it (same with Clefable at S-Rank) but after using it a few times I'm a big fan (again like Clefable, in my Opinion it's the best S-Rank right now) Teams have to play an answer to this and his friend otherwise it's 6-0.


Infernape: B- > C+ whatever.


Keldeo: A+ > S Disagree. Right now, not really S-Rank. But when it get's a useful ability, yes :D I mean WTF, it's one of the best in A+ and that without an ability...

Dragalge: B+ > B whatever.

Cobalion: C+ > B- whatever.

Magneton: C+ > B- I didn't know that it was ranked... I like Magnezone a lot so I can understand why it sees usage, but with Knock Off beeing the best move in the game... I don't know.

Tangrowth: B- > B/B+ whatever. Never used it.

Mega Aggron: C > C+ OverUsed is full with lots of good Megas. Why would I every use this instead of another? It's a niche not more.

Gengar: A+ > A Agree. Gengar is the only viable non Mega Poison Type out there in OU. Yes Poison hits Fairy for SE Damage, but Steel do as well. It may be a good offense Mon, but the defensive capabilities are a lot worse right now. It's a good Spinblocker and good Wallbreaker, but not A+. Knock Off is everywhere, Pursuit just behind, so yeah it should drop.

Tentacruel: B > B- Agree. I never liked it. It's too frail to be really a wall. It got Knock Off/Acid Spray/Scald/T-Spikes/Rapid Spin and so on. The movepool is not the problem why it should drop. I hope it gets soon a Mega Evo so it can be really a wall.

Mega Ampharos: C > C+ Like I said before OverUsed is full off good Megas. But the arguments for rising sounds ok for me. Doesn't care at all.

Hippowdon: A > A+ Agree. When I saw it in UnderUsed a tear rolled down my cheek. I'm so happy that it's soo good right now. It should rise. All arguments for the rise can be found by others.

Mega Diancie: A+ > A Disagree. Protect + 3 Moves is really good. Good Speed and phenomenal Attack Stats. Magic Bounce is nothing to laugh at. It can lure in things with Earth Power or Hidden Power. The rise of Hippo and M-Scizor is not in her favor. But it seems good at A+.


Chesnaught: B- > C+ Whatever.

M-Gallade: B+ > B Whatever.

Noivern: C- > D I think it can be unraked. So nominate for unranked. lol.

M-Gyarados for S-Rank Disagree. Mold Breaker is really good as it can defeat Quagsire or Clefable, but the only thing he do is Dragon Dance and there it is outclassed by M-Altaria and Chard X.

I would nominate Quasire B - > C+. It's typing is really great. It can come in on so many things and ScaldBurn/Toxic it, do notable damage with Earthquake and can heal itself with Recover/Rest. While Leftover is a good item for it you can slap a Rocky Helmet with Rest on it and can cripple every physical attackers. It can build a good "Core like" with Clef.

how is it outclassed as a Dragon Dancer? They all have different qualities and if Gyarados was outclassed, it would be lower in the tiers. Also, Gengar isn't the only viable non mega Poison type out there, Dragalge is there.

 

[teamsnickers]

Bulk also needs to take into consideration typing with M-Gyarados sporting a Dark type and being susceptible to the present Thunder Wave Clefable on most balanced builds. It needs to bank on a Waterfall flinch under most circumstances to break through this set and doesn't change the fact that as great as Ice Fang is, it's not killing Mega Altaria and there goes Mega Gyarados in one blow. Charizards rock weakness is offset by it access to recovery with Roost. M-Gyarados saving grace is access to Taunt and its 3 attack set but as stated previously it necessitates the right coverage move and it also needs some hard checks to it out of the picture before it can go on a roll and sweep. Sub DDance M-Gyarados I think is an opportunity cost by itself so there's not really a strong argument for this to be the variant that you're implying should solidify its S rank placement. I can put maybe 3 other things in S before I would consider M-Gyarados, albeit not going to go into detail and incite the inevitable shit storm of side tracking the discussion points. Mega Alt and Mega Char-X most definitely do not necessitate more team support as mentioned in the comment prior to this. Look at all the games, general high ladder play and Wcop where these two are used on and how they function in an effective manner. M-Metagross is being suggested to drop due to its lack of centralization so at which point is M-Gyarados is even more centralizing than Mega Metagross or even Mega Scizor for that matter?

team support wise I disagree with you, yes mega alt and mega char are more over centralizing, but thats what makes mega gyarados so good rn its EXTREMELY antimeta.. In a 1v1 with clefable gyarados can taunt it and clefable 3 hit kos with moonblast The only "hard checks' to mega gyarados are keldeo azumarill and mega altaria (talking about the dual stab ddance taunt set)After a ddance mega gyarados 2 hit kos 99 percent of the meta with one of its stabs, A mon with only 3 hard counters deserves s IMO... especially considering the power of its dual stabs and massive bulk with assess to taunt and intimidation before its mega, it has SO many positives and makes any team better that it goes on....It also counters alot of revelant mons atm like mega scizor weavile etc and it destroys hippo balance teams

 

[Alfalfa]

IMO Mega gyara actually requires less team support.... Mega char x REQUIRES a spinner/defogger,Mega metagross is likely being dropped, and mega altaria team always need something to handle talonflame and mega venusaur.... There's honestly is not any hard checks for mega gyarados besides mega altaria(and keldeo but thats debatable) with just dual stabs taunt/sub and ddance set..... You can actually make the case that mega alt and mega char x teams require MORE team support then gyarados, and before the mega you can switch in on a psychical attacking mon with intimation and set up on it with its MASSIVE bulk... Not many things want to switch in on a mega gyarados anything after a dragon dance.... even before a dragon dance this is a very powerful mon but its highly unlikely that you will get any status on mega gyarados or stop it from setting up because of taunt/sub AND its massive bulk mega gyarados honestly needs little/no team support to cripple a team


EDIT: azumarill is a check i didnt mention

You also forgot Keldeo, Clefable, Ferrothorn, which, while not hard counters, are still sufficient enough at checking Mega Gyarados to the point where it would need support dealing with them

 

[teamsnickers]

You also forgot Keldeo, Clefable, Ferrothorn, which, while not hard counters, are still sufficient enough at checking Mega Gyarados to the point where it would need support dealing with them

I mentioned keldeo, clefable is not a counter to gyarados or a check gyarados will win the 1v1 EVERY time unless its coming in on a clefable thats already set up,and ferro is kind of a counter (I guess...) but its REALLLY shaky and gets 2 hit koed with crunch

 

[Alfalfa]

I mentioned keldeo, clefable is not a counter to gyarados or a check gyarados will win the 1v1 EVERY time unless its coming in on a clefable thats already set up,and ferro is kind of a counter (I guess...) but its REALLLY shaky and gets 2 hit koed with crunch

You are missing the point. They are still problematic for Mega Gyarados, even if they are not consistent checks. Clefable usually carries Thunder Wave in the current state of the meta, which stops a Mega Gyarados in its tracks unless it carries Substitute. Ferrothorn is not 2HKOd, it is only 3HKOd:

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-178 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[teamsnickers]

You are missing the point. They are still problematic for Mega Gyarados, even if they are not consistent checks. Clefable usually carries Thunder Wave in the current state of the meta, which stops a Mega Gyarados in its tracks unless it carries Substitute. Ferrothorn is not 2HKOd, it is only 3HKOd:

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-178 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega gyarados could just taunt the clefable and ferro is a soft counter it can force gyarados out (maybe) but it doesnt like taking 42-50 percent...the list of checks/counters for mega gyarados is REALLY small and most of the checks people are trying to say get 2 hit koed by one of gyarados moves

 

[SketchUp]

Mega gyarados could just taunt the clefable and ferro is a soft counter it can force gyarados out (maybe) but it doesnt like taking 42-50 percent...the list of checks/counters for mega gyarados is REALLY small and most of the checks people are trying to say get 2 hit koed by one of gyarados moves

There is no reason to Taunt a pokemon that can 2hko you and even if you are a prediction lord and stop them from TWaving / Leech seeding you, you will still lose the 1v1 matchup. You are not switching it after it used DD, you switch in the turn it uses DD and then you are in a nice position most of the time.
The fact that it is very strong after a boost is what made MGyara A+ rank, but if you want to see it S you need to look at the things that made it better when looking at metagame thrends (for the same reason I don't support Weavile to A+) It has no recovery which means residual damage like stealth rocks can put much pressure on Gyara especially pre-mega and after mega it is left with a pretty 'meh' typing. I would say it is even worse now than a few months ago because Keldeo, Tankchomp and Bulky MScizor are more common than before. Still a solid A+ pokemon though.

 

[Cheryl.]

Okay, I now disagree with Mega Gyarados going to S, sorry teamsnickers. But can we get Hawlucha to B+? It's a pretty cool late game cleaner thanks to Unburden, Swords Dance, and naturally high 118 speed, letting it outspeed a good chunk of the meta unboosted. Hawlucha also has an amazing STAB combination with powerful moves like High Jump Kick and Acrobatics. Problems with Hawlucha is it's frailty, disliking the common Weavile and other common trends, but it's imo, a very underrated sweeper that requires a bit of support,and should definitely rise.

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

Okay so here's my post about the changes. I'm definitly no pro - whatever.

I would nominate Quagsire B - > C+. Its typing is really great. It can come in on so many things and ScaldBurn/Toxic it, do notable damage with Earthquake and can heal itself with Recover/Rest. While Leftover is a good item for it you can slap a Rocky Helmet with Rest on it and can cripple every physical attackers. It can build a good "Core like" with Clef.

I'm befuddled. You suggest that we should drop Quagsire, yet, you gave an argument supporting why it's good?

I think it's good in B-, as it is hampered by its relatively low special defense, but at full health, it can counter all DD Mega Charizard X variants. Note how I said counter, not check. It is only 3HKOed by Dragon Claw and Flare Blitz. You can also play around variants with Outrage. It also puts a stop to Mega Metagross that lack Grass Knot and DD Mega Altaria.

If anything, I could see a potential case for it moving up.

As far as Clefable + Quagsire, I see some, but not too much synergy between the two. Sure, Quagsire can eat Iron Heads from Bisharp all day, but it Quagsire despises having its leftovers knocked off. They both also lose to Mega Venusaur. Type wise, you would be correct in saying that Quagsire covers both of Clefables weakness and can burn things to make it easier for Clefable to handle, but at the end of the day, you might have some difficulties fitting the two of them together unless it's on a dedicated stall team.

 

[Gilbertosaurus]

Abou mega gyarados going to s rank; I don't agree with it but all the flaws that were pointed out against mega gyarados also apply to mega altaria except altaria is 2hkoed instead of 3hkoed by moonblast. It also has hard checks and ferro can't 1hko mega gyara but can 1hko mega altaria. It also depends on the right coverage move whether malt can damage skarmory with fire blast or heatran with earthquake. So doesn't mega gyara merit some better arguments than those that apply to some already s rank mons to actually state why it's not worthy?

 

[Salemance]

Abou mega gyarados going to s rank; I don't agree with it but all the flaws that were pointed out against mega gyarados also apply to mega altaria except altaria is 2hkoed instead of 3hkoed by moonblast. It also has hard checks and ferro can't 1hko mega gyara but can 1hko mega altaria. It also depends on the right coverage move whether malt can damage skarmory with fire blast or heatran with earthquake. So doesn't mega gyara merit some better arguments than those that apply to some already s rank mons to actually state why it's not worthy?

While what ya say is true, ya have to remember that Altaria has the luxury of having a phenominal typing to abuse compared to Gyara-M even if they both have some hard checks and or counters. Alt gets the bonus of just so much added versatility and how easy it often is just to set up and spam Pixilated Frustrations/Returns and its other slots.

If it were basing just on the D-Dance role than ya, the arguement would be correct, but Alt just gets to do bit more usually than what Mega Gyara normally would.

EDIT: Ninja'd by a Magneton. The world is truly ending for poor Krook.

 

[Flygonial]

Oh well, I'll just pitch in my opinions, although I really don't care all that much about most of the noms.

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Mega Metagross: S -> A+ - Agree: Personally I've never found Mega Metagross ridiculously overwhelming at any point - I've found it underwhelming both in my use and my opponent's use compared to what some people made it out to be, and most people are used to dancing around it by now. Of course, this doesn't mean much since I was fine with having to break Aegislash, but that doesn't mean it's not an overcentralizing haunted blade that I've never missed. The current metagame trends aren't exactly favorable to it. Mega Scizor's reasonably common, Hippowdon and Tank 'Chomp are things you'll probably see once every few battles even if they're not counters, and it doesn't help that Talonflame's in #9 usage at 1825+ even if it's not exactly a switch-in. I know that it's particularly bulky for an offensive pokemon but with it's lack of recovery it's not exactly difficult to wear down if it's forced to switch into anything (Not just attacks, Spikes as well). Finally, it's not particularly versatile either. It's got quite a bit of freedom in its coverage moves but realistically it's not really seen using much other than Mash/ZHB/HArm/GKnot/Ice Punch/Pursuit and it's set-up options are rather limited.

Gengar: A+ -> A - Disagree: Gengar has a combination of power and coverage that many pokemon would risk everything for, as well as being the only 'mon to remain OU through all the generations. It more than makes up for it's frailty with it's decent defensive-typing, valuable resistances and immunities, raw power, and golden standard speed tier. The only real relevant thing that can switch into it with a degree of reliability is Tentacruel and that thing is stupidly easy to wear down. It can possibly OHKO every relevant 'mon in it's speed tier (roll against Mega Diancie though), so it makes them think twice about risking a tie. It's also fairly versatile, although realistically the most common set will be an LO attacker with some variations on the fourth slot and then it's Stallbreaker set. It's not all fun and games for it as Torn-T and Weavile have spiked in usage but they don't invalidate the previous points and quite a few 'mons in A+ aren't too fond of the current meta either such as Talonflame and Latios. I really don't think that those changes are enough to warrant a drop quite yet.

Serperior: A- -> A - Agree: This thing is possibly one of the most solid and splashable cleaners ATM. It's mediore immediate power is often irrelevant as it will mainly get off it's first Contrary boost against a weakened target, things like Unaware Clefable are no longer reliable with hazards up/slight prior damage/both, and it's got a decent amount of variety to throw around its slots such as Taunt, Glare, and also has recovery in Synthesis although such sets are less potent at cleaning and more for just powering through fat builds and providing some support. All-in-all it's definitely something that you'll be punished for not preparing for, and it'll still clean prepared teams if the user manages to weaken the opposing team sufficiently.

Hippowdon: A > A+ - Agree: It's an excelllent all-round glue 'mon, blanket hard to soft checking extremely threatening 'mons such as Talonflame, 'Zard X & sometimes Y, MLop, MScizor, Thundurus, Mega Manectric, MDiancie etc., and fits like a glove over balance builds and even some bulky offense ones. It definitely isn't exactly fond of extra Weavile usage but I really believe that it's level with other grounds such as 'Chomp and Lando-T. It has two things that both of them would probably murder their trainers for: reliable recovery and no 4x Ice weakness. Additionally, it's fat, like quite heavily so. It's not without it's flaws, such as being rather passive and giving free switches, and not really that difficult to overwhelm (More so than Tank 'Chomp and Lando-T though). However, just how much it's able to provide in a single package compensates heavily for what it lacks.

 

[Baharoth]

So, since there are some pretty interesting things up for debate i will throw in my thoughts.

Metagross: Even after reading the arguments for it to drop, i am still not convinced that it should. Yes, the meta has become more hostile towards it compared to 3 months ago but the problems it got are pretty easy solve. The biggest problem, Scizor, can be dealt with by Magnezone who also handles Ferro and Skarm, 3 thorns in Metagross side, though the latter two can be broken by Meta himself if it has Hammer Arm (which he should, don't get why ppl use EQ) especially if its Spd Skarm which is the most common set right now. Hippo/Slowbro and stuff all get taken out by Grass Knot which leaves tank Chomp who often finds himself as the sole physical check on a team and will be completely overloaded against any half decent Metagross team. You can comfortably pick how you wanna deal with it, remove it with Meta by using ice punch so the team mates are free to go or just wear it down by complementing Meta with other physical attackers. LO Firepunch Diggersby for example lures and beats most of the things that give Metagross trouble. So yeah, Meta has more problems than it used to be but there are still so few things that can stop it and most of them are so easy to remove that its hardly even an issue in practise.

Keldeo: Imo it shouldn't have been S rank in the first place and i still don't think it deserves that spot. We wouldn't even discuss it if it wasn't for Scald and while those 30% are certainly a handy tool to have, its not such a big deal either. It will need 3 Scalds on average to even get a burn which means it has to come in 3 times during a match, without any recovery aside from lefties if its sub cm. And even then, the counter is only burned, not removed. Not to mention that most of its counters don't even care that much about burns. And its not like teams have to search for solid counters either, Latios, Latias, Starmie, Slowbro, Slowking, Celebi are all solid mons and can deal with Keldeo all day long, then there are checks like Tornadus-T, Raikou, Manetric, Serperior, Tangrowth etc. Yes, every team needs a Keldeo check but its not a hard task at all to find one.

Ferrothorn: Ferro is fine where he is imo. He is a good utility check and glue for many teams, and also one of the best spike stackers in the tier but with the rise of Magnezone and the fact that most of the things its supposed to check can hit it really hard/beat it depending on coverage combined with its unrealiable recovery just isn't enough for A+

Hippo: Don't have a strong opinion on this one but it wouldn't mind him going to A+. He is easily one of the best defensive mons in the tier and the face of balance. He can counter/check a large portion of the tier, stops Volt Switch, sets rocks and can be adjusted to what his team needs, from fully special defensive to fully physical defensive there are a million different options to adjust his spread.

Gengar: Don't know why this was brought up because from what i can see, nothing really changed for it, higher Weavile usage maybe but that's it. Tornadus-T has been around for quite a while now and while the AV set can check Gengar, its easy to beat via coverage and aside from that there are hardly any reliable switch ins to Mr. Smile. Between all the sets it can run, its defensive typing, the speed and the power its imo one of the best mons in A+ and nothing that should go to A.

Rotom-W: Similar to Gengar, it didn't get worse in the last months but it can be questioned if A was a bit to high of a ranking to begin with. He is a great glue and utility mon but also so predictable, one dimensional and totally overloaded most of the time which usually leads to a fast demise considering the lack of recovery. So yeah don't know, and don't really care what happens to it.

Diancie: This one should drop imo, its just not on the same level as the rest of the A+ ranks imo. Yeah, the speed and offensive power is decent but nothing special. The ability, while cool in paper loses alot of its shine when you consider that almost any SR/Spike setter in the tier can ohko it so every attempt to bounce hazards might end up with a dead Diancie, bouncing burns and twaves is nice sometimes but also risky with the low bulk and not ideal typing. Having to use protect to even mega evo is also not a good thing, though not that bad considering that 3 move coverage is enough for Diancie.

Celebi: Can be really useful sometimes, especially on more offensive teams who are looking for a solid check to a significant number of dangerous mons in the meta that isn't a momentum sink. With twave and Baton pass Celebi provides exactly that. As proven by Clefable, nothing likes coming in on twave and since cele often takes little to no damage from switching in (against Keldeo for example) it can often keep the momentum up by just passing out. However, aside from that and maybe nasty pass i don't find cele all that good and it has a good number of problems. Its a close call imo but i think i see it a tad more on the A- level than on the B+ level so i would say, leave it where it is.

Serperior: Good mon, but not A rank good imo. To many things that trouble it, it has tools to get around some of them but there will always be a good amount of stuff left that stops it not to mention that the omnipresent fire bird stops it no matter what it does.

Rarely use the rest of the things nominated so i won't comment on that.