Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Baharoth]

ok, serious question to all people that dont think torn is s.

What do you do when faced against a Torn-T. Completely unrevealed as well. What do you do when you send Raikou and die to SR + Knock + Superpower? What do you do when you send your Steel type and it gets Superpowered or Roasted by Heat Wave? What do you do when you send your Hippowdon in and it gets Taunted and ripped apart by LO Hurricane / Grass Knot? What do you do when your Clefable gets taunted and also ripped apart by Hurricane?

See what I mean? All knee-jerk reactions to Torn-T literally get broken apart by its LO set or just chipped by knock +uturn+rocks. Even though hurricane has 70% accuracy, it forces you to play as if it would hit and you need to play around it completely unknowingly of its coverage options and its item. Unless its a last mon situation, you're not gonna DD with CharX on it, you're not gonna CM with Keld/Garde etc, you're not gonna setup CM with Sab, because the second you see that Hurricane hits, you'll see that your plan has completely backfired and you are now totally fucked all because you risked luck. I've also brought up the last mon argument where a 70% acc move misses, don't bother bringing this up because its not unique to Torn.

How about scouting that last moveslot? Its pretty much always uturn, knock off, hurri so it can only have one of superpower, heatwave, taunt and whatever else you might wanna use. Finding out which one it is isnt that difficult and once you know things become alot easier. The LO reveals itself the first time it moves so no problem here.

And honestly, unless its threatening a very important mon with a ohko often enough you can/should just stay in and attack because you know the opponent is like "meh my stab move is shitty and misses all the time, i rather go for the save move which is uturn." Especially early game. And even if he does click that hurri and even if he does hit, as long as your not ohkoed you will do some damage back to torn and between LO damage, SR damage and the damage it takes from switching into attacks this thing dies alot faster than people here make it out to be, even more so because its taking a hell lot more damage from the things it wants to check like Keldeo for example without that assault vest.

Yes, LO Torn is difficult to switch in to in theory but in practise its alot easier because while you have to think "what happens if it hits" your opponent always has to think "what if i miss" and that affects his play alot, so much that he won't use the move even half as much as he would if it was reliable. He will go the save way most of the time and that solves most of the problems it might be able to cause in theory. And the rest of the time the 30% miss will help you out by giving free turns. I mean am i the only one here who finds it funny that the two most used arguments for torn to S are 1. "LO Hurri is dangerous" and 2. "You dont use hurri that much anyway so who cares about its accuracy?" To me thats a little contradicting. Not to mention that if i put a life orb on something its because i want to punch things in the face as hard as possible and not to just pick them a little and then run off aka uturn out. At the end of the day LO hurricane is just a huge bluff and you have to treat it accordingly.

 

[blank]

You guys are using Torn-T just for U-turning out all day? At this point why not use Mega Scizor? At least it hits much harder and has extreme mixed bulk. Sure, it lacks Regenerator, but Roost makes up for it to a certain degree.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that at one point you will be forced to use Hurricane, which has not one, but three problems.

One: Hurricane's crap 70% accuracy. Basically, the reason you don't use it that much, and choose to just U-turn out until hell freezes over.

Two: Tornadus-T's obvious habit of U-turning. There's a huge risk of overprediction with Torn-T, especially in the earlygame when you U-turn out (especially against stuff like CB Azumarill) and let whatever switches in take a crapload of damage. If you risk Hurricane (for the 2HKO or something), and it misses, you often lose your Torn-T.

Three: HURRICANE DOES NOT HIT HARD ENOUGH. Especially in the case of AV variants, which can only OHKO Keldeo at best. I mean look at this:

160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 169-201 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That can't ohko after rocks. Meaning Zard X can set up a DD and probably kill your team, or at least your Torn-T. There are also examples like Mega Alt, CM users (especially Clef - 160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 135-160 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- 53.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery or some Slowbro who can TWave your switch-in), Dragonite, etc.

Now, the LO set.

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 177-211 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 121-142 (30.7 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clef still laughs at you. Still lacks enough power to reliably 2HKO Calm Miding Slowbro at full health. Now Zard X admittedly gets bopped after SR, but stuff like Altaria and Dragonite can still set up on you.

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now this is a 2HKO b/c Sableye can't use leftovers, but if it Calm Minds as it mega evolves you get this:

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah, your Torn-T is still setup fodder.

And all this is assuming Hurricane hits twice in a row, which only has a 49% chance of happening. Basically, flip a coin. Not only does Tornadus-T's Hurricane lack reliability, it also lacks oomph. It doesn't really hit that hard, LO or AV, as shown by the calcs above. Torn-T really attracts CM or DD sweepers and just invites them to set up if it kills something.

Tornadus-T is too risky to use to be S rank. Admittedly it's one of the top contenders of OU but S rank is honestly a stretch and if anything it's on the lower end of A+.

EDIT: One more thing, why do people use Iron Tail Torn-T? You shouldn't try to bother fucking with Tyranitar or Mega Aero because Iron Tail doesn't OHKO any of them, and AGAIN it has shitty accuracy like 75%. I guess Iron Tail hits Mega Gardevoir and CM Clefable harder... but again it's not reliable at stopping them especially the latter. If you want to hit Mega Diancie, just run HP Steel.

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 291-348 (120.7 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

dude i'm sorry to call you out a second time, but why do you compare things that make no sense to compare? i'm not trying to be rude, but if you're gonna respond to a nomination by saying something like that, i'm gonna argue against it.

tornadus-t and mega scizor are totally different. they do different things, they check different things, one takes up a mega slot, etc.. these things are all BIG differences, and i didn't even get into smaller ones lol. you actually argued against yourself with that comment on regenerator. if you read my previous post, i explain why regenerator on torn-t is so nice.

next, of course AV torn-t won't hit as hard as life orb considering it doesn't have an item that boosts power, and it has less SpA investment. that's like saying "charizard-x isn't powerful enough because its defensive set isn't that strong".

finally, people run iron tail to hit clefable after calm minds specifically, not to mention the benefits of mixed coverage. once again, you disproved yourself by mentioning this right after questioning the use of iron tail in your own post.

i won't even get into hurricane accuracy as i covered that in my post.

again not trying to be rude or aggressive... just that your post (and a lot of your VR arguments in general) lack consistency, and you use a lot of strange comparisons :x

 

[Freeroamer]

LO doesn't have to run U-Turn. I would say AV has to have Hurri / Knock / U-Turn / filler usually Steel coverage whereas LO usually has Hurri / Knock but the other slots are stuff you have to scout out.

What flegg says about assuming it hits is very true because at heart Pokemon is a probability game and you make choices based on your assessment of the probabilities in front of you and how your opponent assesses them too. It's very rare you're gonna say my best option here is to hope for the 30% chance that he misses and that'll give me my shot. If that's your situation then you played bad / had a shite matchup / might just be retarded. Predicting U-Turn is all very well but like come on most of the time Torn has to click Hurricane is to take down a threat to its team so why would you take the risk of losing said threat? Move this thing to S it should've been there a month ago

 

[p2]

How about scouting that last moveslot? Its pretty much always uturn, knock off, hurri

this is totally wrong.

And honestly, unless its threatening a very important mon with a ohko often enough you can/should just stay in and attack because you know the opponent is like "meh my stab move is shitty and misses all the time, i rather go for the save move which is uturn." Especially early game. And even if he does click that hurri and even if he does hit, as long as your not ohkoed you will do some damage back to torn and between LO damage, SR damage and the damage it takes from switching into attacks this thing dies alot faster than people here make it out to be, even more so because its taking a hell lot more damage from the things it wants to check like Keldeo for example without that assault vest.

going for the safe play is in no way a bad play, but you literally cannot just assume that he will go for the safe play everytime, this is why prediction arguments are a load of rubbish. lo torn isn't supposed to switch into shit like AV can. And what Torn stays in on something it can't ohko but gets ohkoed in return idgi??? that's why regen+uturn is so good because it outlasts everything that can take a hit and even if it does get hit by something it just comes back usually fully healed

Yes, LO Torn is difficult to switch in to in theory but in practise its alot easier because while you have to think "what happens if it hits" your opponent always has to think "what if i miss" and that affects his play alot, so much that he won't use the move even half as much as he would if it was reliable.

you opponent HAS to think "what if he hits" every single turn, there is absolutely no counterargument for this, this is why torn is so fucking scary. your opponent can think "what if i miss" but that doesn't matter when torn being on the field has such a strong effect on what your opponent is limited to doing

He will go the save way most of the time and that solves most of the problems it might be able to cause.

prediction arguments suck because they're so unreliable to use to actually prove something and they never go anywhere

I mean am i the only one here who finds it funny that the two most used arguments for torn to S are 1. "LO Hurri is dangerous" and 2. "You dont use hurri that much anyway so who cares about its accuracy?" To me thats a little contradicting. Not to mention that if i put a life orb on something its because i want to punch things in the face as hard as possible and not to just pick them a little and then run off aka uturn out. At the end of the day LO hurricane is just a huge bluff and you have to treat it accordingly.

again, its the thought of lo hurricane that makes torn so dangerous and the fact that is has the perfect movepool which can and WILL punish anything that resists hurricane. it's not a bluff, it's a huge threat and the risk of it hitting is more than enough to deter whatever from staying in.

seriously, id kill to see an argument against torn that doesn't boil down to hurricane missing or predictions because they're not a legitimate reason to stop torn from going to s rank at all.

 

[yungstef]

Blows my mind that people are actually saying Torn is not S tier. Have any of you guys actually played against a Tornadus? There are like two actual reliable switchins to Torn that don't just lose to one of its sets, and one of them is Rotom-W, which gets worn down by U-turn while Torn just keeps regenerating its health.

If your argument against a mon is "It can miss", then you have to realize how weak your stance is.

 

[bluegrass]

Can we go ahead and unrank Blissey btw? Stag is gone, removing it's purpose. Yes it has the minor niche of not being as susceptible to Knock Off but that's not worth it imo lol.

Calm Mind Blissey still beats Manaphy, something Chansey can't do.

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

Honestly I rarely post about OU despite playing it quite a bit but he goes.

If your argument against a mon is "It can miss", then you have to realize how weak your stance is.

It really pisses me off when people use at this an excuse for why a mon is really good. I've seen the same argument over and over for tyrantrum in RU but when t all comes down to it this is a solid reason why something isn't as great as people make it. Why was a big reason mega pidgeot banned from UU? Because of high powered STAB with a decent confusion chance that didn't miss. You can make it like oh yeah you shouldn't assume it's going to miss and yes I agree with that. You shouldn't use a team that's very tornadus weak but really. Hurricane misses A LOT and this is a reason for why it shouldn't be S rank. I don't have an opinion on whether it should or shouldn't be but I need to get that off my chest. You can't just dismiss this fact because if you do karma and will come back and you'll be missing all your hurricanes.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Can we go ahead and unrank Blissey btw? Stag is gone, removing it's purpose. Yes it has the minor niche of not being as susceptible to Knock Off but that's not worth it imo lol.

I'll just toss out Vertex's response here:

the reason to use blissey is its cm set which has gotten considerably more useful when stall just lost their best check to manaphy. blissey can also actually beat taunt gengar without having to afford specially defensive mega eye

Blows my mind that people are actually saying Torn is not S tier. Have any of you guys actually played against a Tornadus? There are like two actual reliable switchins to Torn that don't just lose to one of its sets, and one of them is Rotom-W, which gets worn down by U-turn while Torn just keeps regenerating its health.

If your argument against a mon is "It can miss", then you have to realize how weak your stance is.

The argument is not so much "it can miss" as "it can miss way too often for something that is supposed to define the metagame, with the consequences potentially being catastrophic, especially if you're in a situation where you have to click Hurricane".

 

[Ajwf]

Guys, when looking at a mon to wall it defensively, the defender has the burden of "Worst Case Scenario" to prepare for. If it CAN happen, eventually it will. Excludes crits most of the time, but this is how you start to prepare for a mon. What's the WCS of Torn-T's hurricane? Hitting and Confusion. Prepare for that when looking for a counter.

 

[Celticpride]

Abomasnow nom was nice and all but noms from unranked to ranked need replays.

 

[Giagantic]

Sorry for making another nomination but I think A+ is a little overcrowded.

Heatran to A

Unless an offensive set is being used, Heatran has trouble threatening the pokemon it is supposed to check. Fairies being a prime example. Even though it can wall many pokemon, all it can do in return is status or phaze them. Clefable is a prime example.

When comparing it to Hippowdon, Heatran has a unique defensive typing, more versatile sets and a greater offensive presence, at the cost of more bulk, a SR resistance and reliable recovery.

Overall, the rise of Calm Mind, bulky ground types and hazards hurt it. I see it in a similar boat to Hippo and Tyranitar and thus, believe it should drop to A.

Heatran should absolutely not be moved from A+, the role of Heatran is highly diverse and at times hard to tell without scouting, ranging from the classic spdef set to lure sets with a variety of moves such as HP ice, to the stallbreaking/ power herb solar beam set. Calm mind sets can be beaten down by Heatrans running Magma storm + taunt + toxic - whilst its weakness to ground types is balanced by the fact that many of these ground types dislike the idea of switching into lava plume/fire blast/magma storm or its coverage. All of its weaknesses are easily manageable with proper team support and prediction, and its role as both a offensive, defensive, and supportive pokemon is huge with in the current meta.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Guys, when looking at a mon to wall it defensively, the defender has the burden of "Worst Case Scenario" to prepare for. If it CAN happen, eventually it will. Excludes crits most of the time, but this is how you start to prepare for a mon. What's the WCS of Torn-T's hurricane? Hitting and Confusion. Prepare for that when looking for a counter.

Wouldn't the same logic apply when looking at a mon to use offensively? The attacker has the burden of "Worst Case Scenario" to prepare for. If it CAN happen, eventually it will. What's the WCS of Torn-T's Hurricane? Not hitting at all. Prepare for that when using it

 

[Alfalfa]

Three: HURRICANE DOES NOT HIT HARD ENOUGH.

180 Spa Torn-T's Hurricane has the same amount of power as Starmie's Hydro Pump, which is usually strong enough to pressure most offensive neutral targets (ie Raikou, Zard X, you get the idea). You could talk about Starmie having Analytic, but even without Analytic, it usually strong enough for Starmie to KO most weakened threats. Considering that Starmie's power is often enough to give it leverage as a Spinner and a late-game cleaner, how does Torn-T not hit hard enough to pressure most offensive targets?

 

[Subjugator]

I agree with Torn-T being S Rank, mostly because the accuracy issue is kind of a weak argument in general. Sure, none of the other S-Rank mons have any real issues with accuracy, but that doesn't deter it from being as great as it is anyway. Hurricane has 70%, which means that it only has a 30% chance to miss. Mostly it will succeed in attacking, so you will have to assume that it will hit. Tornadus-Therian, while it greatly appreciates, can still function without Hurricane, which again, should hit most of the time. It's one of the best pivots and fits into many cores, be it offensive or defensive quite nicely.

Heatran should definitely stay in A+ to the point where there's not much of a discussion. It's versatile and can fit so many roles so viably and fits on almost any kind of playstyle. It's a staple on many OU Teams and has unique typing that pairs well with an Air Balloon. Stallbreaker, Offensive, SR setter, Support, Scarf, it's so versatile that it's a bit of a chameleon really.

 

[Ajwf]

So, they want replays posted with my argument :/ Didn't see it written, but ok'd to repost with replays.

On another note, I'd like to bring up Abomasnow-mega for D Rank. I've gotten a lot of mixed responses about how people perceive this thing but he's pretty damn strong right now.


Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Earthquake
- Blizzard

This is the balance set I'm running, more-so on a stall team since LadyBug inspired me from like 2 years ago. I could show offensive calcs but let's be real: No one's questioning his offensive power. However, I think a lot of people would be surprised at how much this thing face tanks.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 265-313 (69 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 320-380 (83.3 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sure, these are all huge damage figures that abomasnow gets hit for and you generally don't aim to take this, but this is the upper limit of what he can look to do. And once he gets a free turn, if you don't have chansey, you're losing something. What I want to demonstrate here, though, is fire moves aren't an instant kill from non-fire types. The only one I would consider a legitimate stay-in is chomp because I might expect rocks.

0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 228-272 (59.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (tank chomp set)
252 SpA Mega Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 292-348 (76 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it wasn't listed standard, but I still think about it: To note, aboma leaves the field after this turn with 41% HP after KO'ing diancie with giga drain).
132 Atk Expert Belt Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 283-336 (73.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (from mixed attacker set).
252 Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 264-312 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (jolly scarf set)

I won't deny the necessity for Abomasnow to have teammates supporting him. He has to have a team dedicated to him, or, as I've noticed, three mons. However, he pairs well with heatran (nigh perfectly), Slowbro, u-turn users and others.

Where do you bring him in to get off damage? Generally, I lead him to set hail chip because the only rocker that can reliably screw him turn one is Heatran. Rotom-Wash, Ferrothorn, manaphy, starmie, celebi, defensive mons like Hippowdon, Amoongus, Skarmory, Slowbro, most variants of Gliscor, most variants of Sable-mega are good points of entry.

Speaking of Sableye-mega:

252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

So the argument then I've seen is "Hey, why not use hoopa?". This is a bit harder to answer sometimes but for me, the first answer is the bulk. Hoopa's amazing attack damage is sacrified by physical bulk and HP, especially considering where Hoopa's investment is going. It's scarified a bit more by the life orb damage, making that hurt even more. When Hoopa is running the mixed form with LO, both abomasnow and Hoopa will output roughly same neutral damage on the special side. Yes, Hoopa retains the wallbreaker identity and destroys with physical side damage as well. Rather hard to show an example of this outside of changing mew's type (normal type for reference)...

96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 214-253 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

Lower? Only in this, because hail will actually push abomasnow a little higher on the special sided damage. So from my POV, I've got me a slightly bulkier 'wall breaker'.

But the last point I'd like to bring up is hail. Hail this gen hasn't been used much because it's got one one major user. However, it takes 6% damage to everything in tier outside Weavile, mamoswine, kyub. No other team is running blizzard right now so you're not really aiding. It burns LO users faster, allows abomasnow to kill anything sashed in one turn, kills shed, takes away TTar's spdef boost, hurts RD manaphy's ability to function, and hurts Mega-Venu's ability to heal. Not to mention it's a slow mon, so if it leads or switches same turn as another setter, hail sticks. You do have to consider this in team building (basically make sure you have roost, leftovers or regenerator available to most mons) but I'm using D rank to argue that team support should be expected. For getting this mon in, your opponent will take 30% damage over 5 turns unless ice mon.

What does he need?
>Fire Tanks like heatran, slowbro, dragons...
>Hazard Clearing (this is basically understood on most teams anyways...)
>Mons that can survive hail

Heal bell and Wish are nice, but not neccessary. Abomasnow is there to fuck up mons in the beginning and then keep setting hail if needed. I keep a wish mon around, but have nothing for status tanking.

Considering some of the other D-ranked mons, I see no reason something like Abomasnow-mega shouldn't be recognized. The only D-ranked mons I really think are that great in OU is Shedinja and Chandelure and Shed requires way more support. Yeah, he costs a mega slot. However, considering his unique use of that slot for weather and his good combination of bulk/SpA, he's worth building a team around.

Now for the wonderfall replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-313976951
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-312249361 (regardless of missed focus blast, Aboma lived and Gengar died. Seeing as Aboma didn't get any more use after that, I think it's a fair replay).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-312343335 (demonstrating hail use on Venu, does decent chunks at the beginning to sup ttar and skarm, which for whatever reason I thought might be ttarmega)

I have a few other replays but most of the time the games end pretty quickly (forfeits) if I bait in scizor to take HP fire or something along those lines.

 

[DeeJ]

Whats up guys, wanted to make a different nom for a Pokemon I feel is very underrated (or set is very underrated) [:

Scolipede from B- ---> B+

Now I know two subranks may seem like alot, but its not when you realize how good Offensive (yes, Offensive) Scolipede is at breaking common Bulky Offense / Balance builds after an SD, or just Protect if its checks are weakened enough attempting to sweep. Its lead set is ok, but this set really sets it apart from that standard set because of its sheer unpredictability, and Offensive variants have a huge advantage just from team preview in general "This is standard Offense, thats definitely lead Scoli" Then bawpp. Offensive Scolipede is just great because its hard to have a good answer for it, its has perfect coverage in three moves, and is only walled by stuff like PhysDef Mega Sciz and PhysDef Skarm (Skarm of the two, being the most uncommon) Don't forget SD+Speed Boost turns it into a huge threat in a single turn

Some calcs:

Hide

252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 231-274 (85.2 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 216-255 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Can even opt to lead with it to dent this immediately for your Talon or Bisharp

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 312-368 (88.6 - 104.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 374-442 (89 - 105.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 273-322 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Paves way for an easy sweep with your Scarf Exca, Lopunny etcetera

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 325-385 (77.3 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 320-378 (105.6 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
LOL

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 174-205 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And then needs either Brave Bird or Counter to do actual damage back, but those aren't to common nowadays on SpDef sets
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Replays:

Hide

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-307410150
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-307971664 Not the best game, but shows how Scolipede can break down walls for teammates, making it easier for them to sweep (Once Hippo, his only defensive answer to Scolipede went down,Exca clearly would have been doing tons of work)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-309161830 Bopping that Landorus ayee

Heres the set I use:

Hide

GIMME DA BOOOST (Scolipede) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 Def / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Poison Jab
- Aqua Tail
- Swords Dance / Protect

Speed is for Naive Kyurem-Bs. Can be lame and use Protect if you want

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I'm kind of doing a mini discussion slate here...

A--->S

People have already practically waged a war over this thing. Can it please Not happen again. I disagree with a rise here. Yes, it's a nice pivot, but it still isn't as awesome of a mon as some people argue. Okay, it can use the U-turn+Regenerator combo, which of course is fantasic. But the AV variant... to put it bluntly, its damage output just sucks. Also, I don't care how many times people bring this up, but Yes, having a your best STAB be sitting at 70% accuracy is an issue!!! Okay, it'll click U turn most of the time. However, what if you opponent knows that, too? sure, it's a risk to stay in with your keldeo, but even if they to fire off an attack, they still have a 30% of missing! Torn-T is versatile, durable, and a good momentum generator. Half the reason I oppose the drop is to just stop all of the worthless bickering over this topic. If you want it to rise- fine. if enough people agree and the council likes it, then sure, have it rise. I don't mean any disrespect, but I just am done talking about this one- I've seen too much of it. Torn-T shouldn't rise.

B---->B+

Yeah, this should probably rise. A general thorn in my side and a solid stop to Keldeo as well as being part of very annoying regenerator cores with stuff like slowbro, this thing definitely deserves a rise. Another very important trait it has, outside of solid typing, regenerator, and spore, is a way to paralyze ground types. I personally have found the enormously useful for shutting down excadrill, mostly, which is really nice for teams who need an extra layer of defense against sand. Other than that, I'm just agreeing with most of the people above; it's probably going to rise even further, but we can take small steps for now. I'd like to see Amoonguss rise.

A--->A-

Definitely strongly disagree with this one. Yes, it has a stealth rock weakness, which admittedly is a something of an issue, but it can still OHKO Setters, such as chomp, Lando-T, and Heatran. The standard LO set can beat nearly everything found on stall bar chansey, Which the CB set completely screws over. Furthermore, it has relibale recovery in roost and can check quite a few offensive mons like AV Torn, Mega Manectric, and essentially all slower dragons like Malt and Dragonite. I understand we're in an offensively-inclined metagame right now, but I still believe that Kyurem-B holds a large enough spot in to OU metagame to, at the very least hold its spot in the rankings. Keep Kyu-B where it is.

I'm sorry if I came as a bit forward with my arguments for Kyurem-B and Torn-T, but I do feel very strongly about them. Have a nice day!

 

[bludz]

Sorta had this argument with AJ already but Mega Abomasnow is really shit. Those defensive calcs don't include Stealth Rocks which is pretty much standard for calcs. Throw those on and all those things are OHKOs. Not sure why Diancie's HP Fire is being calc'd when Diamond Storm does more. Yeah no doubt it's annoying to switch into but in the OU metagame it's not like it threatens to OHKO half the meta or anything. Sure you got a few things like Lando-T and Chomp, but yeah this thing is 1v1'd by Latios (something it should check!) with rocks up. :/

Most mons can stay in, outspeed, 2HKO and tank the one hit. Even if you do have to switch out it's gonna be like once a game because of how slow and easily worn down the thing is. Taking up the mega slot is the icing on the cake especially when we have a few really solid ice type breakers already. Reasons to use this over Kyurem-Black are honestly almost none. Kyu-B is bulkier, has reliable recovery, a better defensive type, still has a way to hit water types, is faster and can also run HP Fire for steels just as easily. On top of that it's just a more versatile mon it could be scarf, could be band, could be physically based etc. I'd rather rank Glalie but in all honesty that thing's pretty bad too.

And for the main topic at hand: Torn-T should be S imo. Hurricane's accuracy is sort of overplayed. Ok, it really does suck when it misses, no doubt. But the whole "I'll stay in on the U-turn" is just a prediction argument. Please. The number of actual solid switch-ins to this thing are fairly limited. It's fast and difficult to wear down. Amazing glue for tons of teams - there's a reason AV torn is found on team archetypes from offense to stall. Let's also realize that Torn-T does not require Knock Off. It's a great utility move, but it is not necessary. U-turn + Hurricane + 2 coverage moves is perfectly viable and in some cases more threatening. And as mentioned before, LO variants don't really need U-turn. Thing has a great movepool and threatens almost everything in the tier. Hurricane missing costs you some matches, yes. But the amount of pressure it puts on just with the threat of using it is also greater than every other pivot in the tier. Nobody's really shaking in their boots at Lando-T clicking EQ instead of U-turn, but Hurricane is honestly pretty hard to switch into. In a metagame filled with offense (see: speed and momentum are key), we have a blazing fast pivot that is hard to wear down and applies pressure just about every time it comes in. Bulky teams are annoyed to hell by it and offense doesn't wanna switch in.

 

[The Goomy]

Misdreavus Unranked --> B- or B

Misdreavus is severely underrated as a spin blocker. It has incredibly good speed for a wall, the right stats to reliably beat Starmie 100% of the time and force Exca to make good plays. It's a great stall breaker.

See the RMT below for a team that had Missy got to 1759. Missy put in work in every game and I believe is the best spin blocker in the tier (barring Mega Sab) and it's really anti meta.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/misdreavus-alone-peak-1759-elo-37-ranking.3560835/

 

[Finchinator]

Misdreavus Unranked --> B- or B

Misdreavus is severely underrated as a spin blocker. It has incredibly good speed for a wall, the right stats to reliably beat Starmie 100% of the time and force Exca to make good plays. It's a great stall breaker.

See the RMT below for a team that had Missy got to 1759. Missy put in work in every game and I believe is the best spin blocker in the tier (barring Mega Sab) and it's really anti meta.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/misdreavus-alone-peak-1759-elo-37-ranking.3560835/

Hate to break it to ya, but this isn't NU viability rankings.

Hide

For real, I don't know for sure as I haven't used Misdreavus, but I feel as if ranking it at all is a stretch, yet alone placing it in B- or B. Obviously, you've had some success with it and I can respect that, but nobody else (to my knowledge) has and it isn't a pokemon worthy of being ranked if 99.999% of players don't use or recognize it to be a legitimate threat. In addition, I'm not even sold on its viability regardless of the fact that it's an irrelevant pokemon in the tier almost always. Knock Off, faster and stronger threats, etc. are all over the tier plaguing Misdreavus wherever it goes and spin-blocking isn't exactly a commodity many teams need with Defog running rampant currently. So, I have to disagree with this point completely.

 

[Random Passerby]

Misdreavus Unranked --> B- or B

Misdreavus is severely underrated as a spin blocker. It has incredibly good speed for a wall, the right stats to reliably beat Starmie 100% of the time and force Exca to make good plays. It's a great stall breaker.

See the RMT below for a team that had Missy got to 1759. Missy put in work in every game and I believe is the best spin blocker in the tier (barring Mega Sab) and it's really anti meta.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/misdreavus-alone-peak-1759-elo-37-ranking.3560835/

Not sure how it "beats Starmie 100%" when an Analytic Psyshock / Hydro Pump + an unboosted Psyshock + Stealth Rock OHKOes 100% of the time. Even an unboosted Psyshock can 2HKO while Missy doesn't OHKO back.

Missy vs Starmie

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 187-220 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 172-203 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 142-169 (43.9 - 52.3%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Misdreavus Hex (65 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 140-168 (53.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

On an unrelated note, Torn-T should rise as the Life Orb set (which I personally use more than AV) is so annoying to switch into. It has just the right tools (movepool, Speed and SpA) to beat most teams (what with the frail mons that are on the rise) and can be difficult to wear down because of Regenerator. Outside of Weavile, Mega Manectric, Talonflame, Scarf users and Ice Shard, this thing is difficult to revenge before it runs away with U-turn. Oh, and the "I'll stay in on the U-turn", well, I think you'll cry if he clicks Hurricane instead.

The AV set is of course, still good as it has decent bulk and still packs a punch. A decent glue to patch up specific weaknesses to Keldeo and Gengar, for example is a godsend for any team.

 

[4daptability]

Misdreavus Unranked --> B- or B

Misdreavus is severely underrated as a spin blocker. It has incredibly good speed for a wall, the right stats to reliably beat Starmie 100% of the time and force Exca to make good plays. It's a great stall breaker.

See the RMT below for a team that had Missy got to 1759. Missy put in work in every game and I believe is the best spin blocker in the tier (barring Mega Sab) and it's really anti meta.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/misdreavus-alone-peak-1759-elo-37-ranking.3560835/

So I've seen the RMT as well as the video you uploaded (pls come back to uploading), but I think that when considering the Misdreavus's viability as whole, it falls very short of being a B ranked 'mon, due to its lack of consistency in the tier (Think: Why would I use this over other ghosts like Cofagrigus or Gourgeist, who can somewhat check Starmie, while also being able to somewhat pressure LO Excadrill to Iron Head, in general?). There's no doubt that Misdreavus proved to be effective in those replays, as it was able to surprise bulkier teams with Taunt + Wisp while providing your team with momentum that was much appreciated to wear down walls, but the key word is "surprised." I feel that this is an issue that hurts Missy's viability because as soon as people realize what it is that Misdreavus does, it'll no longer have the surprise factor that it did against the opponents in the replays, which played a significant role when considering its effectiveness on the team you RMT'd. By no means am I saying that Misdreavus is a bad pick for your specific team (I honestly can't think of another 'mon that can fill the exact same niche that Missy does, and commend you for your ingenuity as a team builder), but what I am saying is that from a team building perspective, I (and I'd like to believe that several others on this thread also) really only account for threats in the S to B+ Ranks. A team-specific Pokemon like Misdreavus has no business in the B ranks, and if ranked at all, should be placed in D rank.

tl;dr: Nice team, but I can't see Missy being ranked due to how niche and team-specific it is. If it proves to still be consistent in a month's time, maybe I'll have a change of heart.

 

[Baharoth]

this is totally wrong.

Really? Because the 1825 usage Numbers say i am right. And even in the analysis its the suggested main spread. Sure there might be people who go different ways, like dropping u-turn or Knock off but that's the exception, not the rule. Maybe next time before makeing statements like that, provide some reasoning or at least check your facts.


going for the safe play is in no way a bad play, but you literally cannot just assume that he will go for the safe play everytime, this is why prediction arguments are a load of rubbish. lo torn isn't supposed to switch into shit like AV can. And what Torn stays in on something it can't ohko but gets ohkoed in return idgi??? that's why regen+uturn is so good because it outlasts everything that can take a hit and even if it does get hit by something it just comes back usually fully healed

You didn't read my post. I never said playing safe is bad, and i didn't say he will always play safe. You shouldn't risk your Keldeo if you need it to check something on the opponents team. But if you DON'T need it, it can be worth it. I also never said that torn stays in on something that can ohko him. I just said he might take a hit and if he takes 40-50% damage somewhere during the game it is very unlikely that he will be able to recover that damage due to LO damage and Stealth rock. 2 such hits and its dead most of the time.


you opponent HAS to think "what if he hits" every single turn, there is absolutely no counterargument for this, this is why torn is so fucking scary. your opponent can think "what if i miss" but that doesn't matter when torn being on the field has such a strong effect on what your opponent is limited to doing

You don't seem to understand. Yes, as the one facing torn you always have to assume the worst case scenario, i even wrote that in my post. But you have to consider the other side of the coin as well. The Torn user always has to consider misses and their consequences and because of that he won't use Hurricane all that often. That means that the worst case your worried about won't happen all that often. Yes, when you switch your Hippo into Torn you always have to worry "uh he might 2hko". But if you actually play the game you will realize that 90% of the time the Torn T user won't even try. They will go for u-turn and bring their Keldeo/Manaphy/Azu. Why risk missing and eat a stone edge in return when you have a much better play to make? LO Hurri is scary but to actually cause problems it needs to be used AND it needs to hit. And that's not happening all that often.

prediction arguments suck because they're so unreliable to use to actually prove something and they never go anywhere

This is not about prediction, its about risk assessment and how it affects the plays of both players, your always thinking about how it affects the guy facing torn, but that's only half of the truth.

again, its the thought of lo hurricane that makes torn so dangerous and the fact that is has the perfect movepool which can and WILL punish anything that resists hurricane. it's not a bluff, it's a huge threat and the risk of it hitting is more than enough to deter whatever from staying in.

Again, nobody denies that. But the "threat" of hurricane alone wont kill your hippo, to kill it your opponent has to actually USE hurricane TWICE and he needs to HIT TWICE. And yes that happens. But more often than not you hippo will only eat a u-turn/knock off and not a hurricane and you shit your pants for nothing. That's the big difference between Torn and Garde/Zard Y. All 3 have incredibly powerful attacks that are hard to switch into. But when facing the latter you have to eat one of these attacks every time they come in. Against Torn you won't because the Torn user will hesitate to abuse his stab to the fullest because its so unreliable. (and yes i know garde/zard are wallbreakers, not pivots. But the way i see it we are not discussing torn t for S because he is an amazing pivot, its because he is an amazing pivot with incredible power behind his stab move, hence the comparison)

seriously, id kill to see an argument against torn that doesn't boil down to hurricane missing or predictions because they're not a legitimate reason to stop torn from going to s rank at all.

tl:dr Hurricanes low accuracy affects the way Tornadus is used, no matter what the opponent does, and no matter if it actually hits or not the threat of missing means that the move won't be used as much and that itself means that torn isn't used to its full potential. And because of that, it shouldn't be S rank. Nobody would argue even 1 sec that its S rank if Hurri was reliable, but its not and that affects the way torn is used a lot. Having a powerful and scary nuke is a good thing in itself, but its not S rank good if you can't abuse it to its fullest.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Torn-T should go conclusion reached (in A+) at this point imo. An S rank Pokemon needs to be reliable, which Torn-T just isn't. You're literally gambling whenever you need to 2HKO or OHKO something. A Pokemon which needs to rely on a 70% accuracy move just to OHKO what it needs to OHKO, and a 49% chance to 2HKO what it needs to 2HKO, should not under any circumstances go to S.

 

[Machi]

I think part of the issue with this discussion in actually nominating Torn-T stems from recognizing what it actually is being nominated for... I wonder if the pro and anti sides are even on the same page. Because it seems the anti side is very adamant about Torn-T's offensive capabilities rather than its ability to pivot around, and the emphasis on Hurricane being reliable begs the question of what role would Torn-T be if it spam an accurate Hurricane (hint see previous gen). It would be more a sweeper or cleaner than a pivot, at least this is the vibe I am getting with all the offensive calcs being thrown left and right.

On the other hand the pro side emphasize on the role of Torn-T as a pivot, and blanket check to notable threats. The higher speed tier means its not relegated to running scarf and being choice locked, giving it more possibilities. In addition, it is blessed with a relatively good ability that allows it to mitigate another issue that most pivots face, recovery. It also has a fairly diverse movepool to match its choice in items and roles, allowing it to play around as either an offensive or defensive pivot. Hurricane while irksome in the larger picture isn't the corner stone to the success of Torn-T's role as a pivot, when all things are considered as his coverage or ability to lure and KO certain threats is something I think hasn't been discussed as much by the anti side (yes Hurricane's accuracy does hurt its role as an offensive pivot but nevertheless it has proved to be an invaluable lure in removing irksome Fairy/Steel types with Heatwave/Superpower/Iron Tail).

Even then, is the role as the offensive pivot the set that is pushing Torn-T to S rank or is it the defensive one? In which case, again this does make the whole Hurricane issue literally a hit or miss. Otherwise, I think this thing will just keep continue to go in circles.

Edit: I get it is similar to Clefable in that it has a plethora of almost equally viable sets competing for the slot, and that is a good thing. But hey, if the OU viability set thread could choose an S rank set for Clefable I think the same can be better narrowed down for Torn-T, or at least decide which role (offensive or defensive) works.