Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

I agree with most of that fwiw (although its ability to take HP Ices from Raikou and Mane is really important IMO). It's ranked B right now though, not B+, which seems kinda harsh.
 
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SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
I think the metagame isn't kind at all to Hippowdon atm. A rise in mons like Grass-types and Rotom-W made popular due to prevelance of Sand Offense in the tier, the introduction of Volcanion, and the very fact that it's a very bad sapper of mometum due to its passiveness being easily exploited by being set up on, makes you question the choice of picking the pokemon over something like a Landorus or a Garchomp. Yes it checks Electric-types solidly, checking pretty much any physically oriented threat in the tier is a very nice quality to have. However, a Ground-type on a team introduces a weakness to water-types like Keldeo, Manaphy, Volcanion, so adding something like AV Tornadus-T or either Lati twins becomes pretty much mandatory. The latter provide good checks to electric-types regardless so it makes Hippowdon kinda redundant. Hippowdon also provides balance breakers like TG Manaphy, BU Talonflame, SD Landorus, SD Gliscor, SD M-Scizor, and a few others a plethora of opportunities to come in and just excerbate the team's matchup vs these aforementioned threats. Hence, I think Hippowdon should stay B+
Half the points are also the case for other bulky Ground-Types, for example one of the best pokemon in the tier: Landorus-T. You can go on about all flaws of Hippowdon but it is a much more solid physical check than most people give it credit for. Like how often have you seen your Landorus-T being worn down so much that in the end Excadrill or Terrakion eventually break through? And how often have you seen your Landorus-T or Tankchomp drop to a random Ice move from MMetagross, MLopunny, LO Tornadus-T, Terrakion etc.? It doesn't have that nice Ground-immunity, Fighting-resistance and U-Turn to not give bulky Waters and Grass-Types free switchins. It may not check and counter as many pokemon as Landorus-T and Tankchomp, but it does a much more reliable job at checking/countering some dangerous wallbreakers thanks to reliable recovery and the fact that it is much harder to lure in. Your last sentence kinda confused me, I'm guessing you thought it was still in B+ but it's B currently. Anyway, I think B+ is a better place for it.

Also, I think Dugtrio + Flying Type + Lati is one of the best cores in this metagame. I think D is too low for an amazing support pokemon Dugtrio is. I think it fits better in C- or C, but I'll make a more comprehensive post about it later this week where I'll also discuss the current slate.
 
Okay, I don't write much in these threads but I am feeling irked by peoples feelings regarding how the viability has been run and should be run especially in regards to comparisons as a justification of their viability ranking.

First off, the viability ranking is a tool meant to primarily represent what is strong in the current metagame, as such comparing pokemon with vastly different roles, different attributes and ultimately those that perform differently is nearly pointless. Comparing Mega-Manectric to all of the higher megas in A- is fairly silly as that doesn't depict how it performs within the metagame which is what actually matters. You are simply making statistical comparisons that in theory should hold correct while in reality depict a vastly different reality, Mega-Manectric is just not that good in the current metagame, the prominence of bulkier Pokemon like T-tar, Heatran, Clefable have hurt M-Mane viability heavily and this aint a new trend rather this has held true for many months now which is why it initially fell from A to A- in the first place.

Second, for everyone following this don't use the viability thread as a means to boost a pokemon you like to a higher rank. There should be a reason why a pokemon is high ranking as the viability thread is a representation of what is strong and prominent within the given metagame! It is a tool for newer players to be referred to, not some egotistic representation of what you like to use and find good on your niche team. Don't just bring in copy pasta data calcs that poorly represents how a pokemon performs, bring replays, show results through actual battle or else anyone could make up BS arguments (as many have).
I don't know how the actual fuck you turned my argument to "M-Manectric is niche for my team" but okay.
 
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Terrakion B+ -> A- the band set itself invalidates most teams whose rock resist are land-t or chomp. there aren't really any legitimate switchins that can come in on this mon repeatedly and it has the stats and moves that allow it to measure up with the mons in A-.
Mew B+ -> B sure mew is pretty linear in what it does, somewhat pursuit bait and is not exactly the most splashable when it comes to building, but it does do its job well enough for it to stay in B+. while its stallbreaker set could be considered underrated, mew truly signs in the defensiveness of its nature. being able to switch into a majority of the meta whilst shutting down defensive threats is a trait very few pokes can contest. its ev spread and movepool can even be customized to w/e you so please, physical defense to take on fighting and dark types better such as lop, cham, ttar, etc. or volt switch to maintain momentum, mew can really do things like no other.
Nidoking B -> B+ nido's a sick mon to use in ou, but that doesn't necessarily translate it to being as metagame defining as the other B+ mons. average speed and subpar bulk really hamper its functionality as a wallbreaker, and has very limited opportunities to switch in safely outside of faries or necessitating volturn. i guess you can consider this to be a poorman's hoopa, but it can still pull its own weight.
Slowking B -> B+ a pretty swell alternative over its bro counterpart, being able to take on special attackers like volc, keld and lati better. however, i wouldn't move it to B+ solely because it doesn't quite compare to amoonguss, latias, tangrowth, suicune, and starmie and their capacity to handle them to some extent plus more.
Alakazam B -> B+ already shared my sentiments on it. largely outclassed by megazam and its only purpose on a team is if they already have a mega and need to fill the role of a fast wallbreaker. not really a major player in ou for it to be B+, and far from it being splashable.
Hippowdon B -> B+ i don't understand what's with all the hippo hate as of late. land and chomp are the premier bulky ground types of the tier, but their performance does not necessarily make hippo worse. SketchUp explained it pretty well, that it's a much more durable switchin to what chomp and land usually switch into, at the cost of offensive pressure. everything Analytic said are problems that have always plagued hippo, nothing has changed other than volcanion but the same goes for phat land too. in fact, volcanion affects every mon it can take advantage of, not just hippo. if you're going to say it screws over hippo even though it pressures with eq and rocks, then i can also say it screws over tran, ferro, skarm, sciz, rachi, azu, talon, etc. what it's vulnerable to is dependent on what filler you run as last and how you build your team to combat that other weakness, which is honestly basic teambuilding. it's like saying whether i should run tpunch or bp on my medicham bcs i want to handle diancie but also slowbro, same goes with hippo. no clue why it should stay at where it's at when these are the rankings that determine viability, not usage. bump it up lol.
Mamoswine B- -> B i'm pretty confused as to why this is being considered for B. i don't really think mamo is better than diggersby, crawdaunt, or hydreigon in terms of wallbreaking and idk if i would rate it at the same level as nidoking, looks fine at where it's at honestly.
Metagross B- -> B regular metagross has one good set and one set only, av. if you think that that set is on par with mons in B rank, then i'd be wasting my time trying to explain.
Raikou B -> B- man it's so weird seeing this a rank under suicune, but i'd be lying if i said it didn't look better. raikou is just not that good in the metagame, but i don't think it's so bad for it to drop to the ranks of B-. toxic is probably the best set for it to run atm, being able to wear down things like mega lati, quag, tang, hippo, zardx etc. its other sets are viable as well, but raikou is just pursuit bait and too slow to handle things like tornadus, weavile, lop. it is by no means as good as it once was, but having it in B is enough of a punishment imo.

not going do lower ranks now, it looks pretty messy and controversial to have a solid opinion on. other than that, i must say that the rankings look a lot more clean than before, s/o ranking team :p.
 
I don't know how the actual fuck you turned my argument to "M-Manectric is niche for my team" but okay.
Uhhh... that wasn't directed at you, it was just a general statement... ergo why that paragraph began with "Second, for everyone following this...," I honestly don't have anything against you nor was my argument what you just said it was (it was the previous entire paragraph...) (also feel free to delete this post whichever of the council peepz read this- just wanted to clear up a misconception)
 
Terrakion B+ -> A- (No) Terrak has some relevant uses with its scarf and band sets in particular, but its far from more reliable than amoong/starmie and cannot really be thought of as equal to a mlati/mgross. There's just too many common mons like lando-t, slowbro, and mlati going against it atm.

Mew B+ -> B (No) If Mew was considered to only have the taunt knock wisp set, then yea sure it would be B. However, it still has a huge surprise factor as it is able to run baton passing sets, nasty plot attacker, toxic, twave, volt switch, ice beam, eq - the list really goes on here. Mew has too many threatening options as well as defensive utility in being one of the best lop/medi switchins to be below B+.

Nidoking B -> B+ (Yes) Nidoking is honestly such a threatening wallbreaker in this metagame. No matter what type of team you're facing, it's basically going to be doing a ton of damage unless you face a chansey or something. It also can take advantage of free switchins vs many mons like defensive lando-t, heatran, and more, as long as it's paired with the proper pokemon to get it free turns. It can be hard to build around at times, but few pokemon devastate balance quite like this thing.

Alakazam B -> B+ (Yes) While it does have the shortfall of being slower than weavile and torn-T, it is still a very threatening pokemon. Magic Guard is incredibly useful when facing spikes balance especially, and its speed tier allows it to outspeed a large majority of the metagame. I know the meta is working against it in some ways with chopletar, the rise of pursuit weavile, and clefable, etc... but this mon can run taunt, knock off, twave, and some other niche options to help deal with its common counters.

Hippowdon B -> B+ (Yes) Lando-t is indeed amazing right now, but that does not mean Hippo lost its niche. It still has the ability to reliably come into exca, lop, and more, and as long as it runs whirlwind it won't be super passive. The reason to use it is for more semistall/balanced teams where true longevity is needed, and no ground besides hippo can really offer this. It also can do nice things like whirlwind clef early game so mons like heatran don't need to get crippled early on.

Metagross B- -> B (No) On paper, this thing has the apparent niche of countering gardevoir, lati, and more. In reality though, gardevoir frequently runs will o, lati is often mega now, so its job of pursuit trapping is hindered by that. Additionally, this thing is just so damn passive and useless when it isn't pursuit trapping. Pokemon like lando-t, rotom, skarm, and more just come in so damn freely and start doing whatever they want. It really is a burden to have such a weak, passive mon on what most likely is an offensive team.

Raikou B -> B- (Yes) This thing has really lost its usefulness with the recent meta trends. The prevalence of mega latias, ferrothorn, tyranitar, gastrodon, amoonguss, clef, etc. just make it such a burden to have. Additionally, it really can't even fulfill the role of checking offensive threats well because stuff like thundurus kinda fell off while it doesn't even come into tornadus with knock and uturn. I truly just do not see any point of using this pokemon in current OU except for very few cases such as wanting some CM sweeper with spikes and pursuit support and a clef lure.
 
Mega Alakazam A- To A
In my opinion this was one of the best A+ mons before we changed tread I mean i feel it crazy for it to go from A+ to A- I know we have re evaluated the value placed on ranking but moving from A+ to now bellow mega medicham it is crazy and there hasn't even been any thing to make Mega zam worse if any thing Mega zam has become better since hoopa-u has been banned and the fall in popularity of Mega sab it also has the nice niche of being able to trace volcainion water adsorb and getter free switch in on it steam eruptions.

Bisharp A- To A
I'd like the say the same for this as I did for mega zam it was near the top of A+ imo on the old tread now it -A , I really dont value weavile higher than bisharp personally it i dont see how you can to be completely honest.

Rotom-W A+To A
Rotom-w is good dont get me wrong but for a mon with poor such a poor HP sat and average defensive stat for defensive mons i think A+ is over rating it a bit I mean yea it get momentum like nothing else since it can easly volt switch since it has hydro to threaten out grounds but it struggles to switch into many strong physical attacker like bisharp and it has no reliable recovery I mean pain slit isn't reliable and often if team wont to run rotom they have to run another defensive mon to cover it , its good just not A+ rank standard in my opinion.

My thought on the new tread:
I'd like say that the change was needed and I am very glad that is was made but many previous A+ mons have been move to far down imo.
 
Terrakion B+->A- Given the popularity of Balance in the current meta along with the prevalence of Weavile and Tyranitar I think the Meta Has been kind to terrakion, Band is really good right now and scarf sets are still decent Should Rise to A-
Mew B+->B
I haven't run into it as much and it certainly seems less prevalent in the current meta, when building teams I find it not worth running over a Lati or Starmie Should Fall to B
Hippowdon B->B+
This thing is currently vastly outcompeted by Tyrannitar, and only offers sand over other Bulky grounds. While sand is good in the current metagame it offers very little utility over other bulky grounds, which are more effective against stall teams and can provide Momentum Should stay in B
Raikou B->B-
Raikou has 3 sets of varying viabllilty and isn't directly outclassed by another electric type. It can be tailored to fit the needs of the team as Sub-CM can be used to break balance, AV can be used to alleviate match-up issues and specs sets can work on more offensive builds. It isn't a metagame defining mon but its still good, and puts in work in just about any match Should Stay in B

I also think that starmie should rise form B+ to A-, since while Excadrill is a better spinner since Sand is good right now, I think Starmie fits on virtually any teambuild, is the best Keldeo counter, and has a lot of versatility and usefulness in the present metagame.
 
Bisharp A- To A
I'd like the say the same for this as I did for mega zam it was near the top of A+ imo on the old tread now it -A , I really dont value weavile higher than bisharp personally it i dont see how you can to be completely honest.
Bish is such a prediction reliant mon that i honestly dont think A rank fits it well. You can play it safe all the time but honestly if you do that its not going to be successful. Its a high risk/high reward mon. Bish is also slow and overly reliant on sucker punch which can be taken advantage of pretty easily, letting stuff set up. Weavile has insane speed and an arguably better stab combo, while still hitting nearly as hard, which imo is why it should be a subrank higher than bish.
 
Bish is such a prediction reliant mon that i honestly dont think A rank fits it well. You can play it safe all the time but honestly if you do that its not going to be successful. Its a high risk/high reward mon. Bish is also slow and overly reliant on sucker punch which can be taken advantage of pretty easily, letting stuff set up. Weavile has insane speed and an arguably better stab combo, while still hitting nearly as hard, which imo is why it should be a subrank higher than bish.
Pokemon is a prediction heavy game saying a mon it to prediction reliant is not a weakness of the pokemon when that prediction if make correctly can win you the game 9 time out of 10. better stab combo theres like one pokemon in the hole tier that bisharp can't hit for at least normal damage and thats keldeo there at least two mons that weavile cant being klefki and keldeo . Also they can only take advantage of bisharp due to miss plays also all 50/50 that arnt to do with sub or wilo wisp are alway heavily stacked in the bisharp player advantage since all the other player has to do is make one miss play

weavile compared to bisharp summary I'm just going to bullet point the thing each other have over each other
  • bisharps isnt weak to rocks weavile is
  • bisharp is a better SD user
  • bisharp has a move power priority
  • weaviles priority is more reliable
  • bisharp is better versus the best mon in the tier (clefable)
  • weavile has better speed
  • bisharp has a better defensive typing
  • bisharp gets rocks
  • bisharp can defog block (defiaint)
  • bisharps get boosts of intimidate
  • weavile is good versus lando and chomp two of the most commons defensive walls
  • bisharps has more set diversity (lum,LO,sash,black glasses)
  • weavile has low kick bisharp get it too but weavile uses it better
(if ive missed any thing feel free to tell me)


I'd like to end it of with this do you remember when people were saying like 2 mouths ago max on the old tread to move wavile down to A rank (I know it never moved down but lots of people wanted it to) when bisharp was happy in A+ laughing at it's fellow dark type what's happend since then that means the shoe is on the other foot?
 
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Rotom-W A+To A
Rotom-w is good dont get me wrong but for a mon with poor such a poor HP sat and average defensive stat for defensive mons i think A+ is over rating it a bit I mean yea it get momentum like nothing else since it can easly volt switch since it has hydro to threaten out grounds but it struggles to switch into many strong physical attacker like bisharp and it has no reliable recovery I mean pain slit isn't reliable and often if team wont to run rotom they have to run another defensive mon to cover it , its good just not A+ rank standard in my opinion.
Considering that Rotom-W pairs well with a lot of the A ranked mons, having to run something else to compensate for Rotom-W's shortcomings really isn't a big deal, especially considering that Rotom-W's resistances are valued by quite a few mons.

Also, Rotom-W isn't that weak to physical attackers, since it has Will-O-Wisp. Bisharp can't risk staying in on Rotom-W either because of WoW.
 
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Raikou B -> B-: Disagree


Raikou is a really solid mon overall and most certainly isn't deserving of B- rank. Mega Manectric is probably the closest mon to Raikou in the meta rn, so I'll just compare Raik to mmane, who is in B+ rank atm. Mega Manectric has the niche of being a bit faster being able to outspeed weavile and tornt along with having fire type coverage to roast a small group of mons, but that's about where Mane's advantages over Raikou end.

Raikou doesn't take up a mega slot, so it doesn't have nearly as much opportunity cost as using mega manectric, so you can use like raikou+another, more unique mega than mmane. Obviously mmane is a lot better on a lot of offensive teams due to its advantages over raik and stuff, but the oppurtunity cost of using mmane is a huge boon on the side of Raikou.

Additionally, Raikou has a bit more versatility than MMane since mmane is literally going to run the same four moves on 9/10 teams and leaves very little room for variety of moves whereas raikou can run multiple viable sets like cm, specs, and the less viable av for when you're super elec weak on balance and need a very small group of threats checked. Your opponent doesn't know what moveset you are, so they have to think twice before clicking moves.

One really good thing about specs sets is that they can just spam shadow ball and 2hko shit most of the time bar teams with hippo/chansey and overly fat stuff like that since no one uses ghost resists which is really nice whereas mmane relies on prediction to 2hko most shit since it lacks specs and doesn't have a coverage move like shadow ball.

Obviously the speed and fire type coverage make mmane a bit better than Raikou, but there isn't such a big gap between the two mons that Raikou should move all the way down to B-. B is probably a fine rank for it because of its flaws, but it certainly shouldn't move down to two ranks below mega manectric.
 
One really good thing about specs sets is that they can just spam shadow ball and 2hko shit most of the time bar teams with hippo/chansey and overly fat stuff like that since no one uses ghost resists which is really nice whereas mmane relies on prediction to 2hko most shit since it lacks specs and doesn't have a coverage move like shadow ball.
How does one 2HKO "shit" most of the time with only 115 special attack indeed boosted by Specs but with a non-stabbed move with only 80 BP? Whats the "shit" you are talking about? Or calcs, please?
 
New thread.

Slowking B -> B+
It's actually good and nearly functions exactly the same as Slowbro, except it can't pivot into Excadrill, Terrakion, etc. However, it can come in on quite a few threats that Slowbro can't without the immediate threat of being 2HKOed, which includes mons like Mega Diancie and Tornadus-T. It's also a pretty fine check to Volcanion as well, which gives it that extra edge that Slowbro lacks. It's not the best thing in the ranking, but it's certainly deserving of B+ at this point, especially alongside things like Suicune and Latias.

Mew B+ -> B
Mew is really bad imo, I'm not too sure why it was left at B+. It can do nearly everything, but it's usually overshadowed by a ton of other threats who can Defog, Stallbreak, or even Lure a lot better than what Mew ever does. It's not too much the fact that is just not good at a said role per se, just the fact that the other threats in the tier bring so much more to a team than Mew. Latios brings sheer power with solid defensive utility, Talonflame checks a ton of very key threats and sets up rather easy, etc.

Hippowdon B -> B+
The metagame in incredibly harsh to it right now, and a move to B+ would be too forgiving of it's downfalls. I understand the obvious advantages it has over Garchomp and Landorus-T, but with the trends going against Electric-types right now, it's pretty foolhardy to say that it's largely appreciated for that. Mega Manectric and Raikou have a ton of issues right now, and possibly for a very long time ahead. Thundurus is subjectively, the best Electric-type in the tier and with the prevalence of Grass Knot on may sets it fails itself to dictate itself as a check towards it. Not to mention that it pretty much mandates which direction in building you have to take, whereas Garchomp and Landorus-T hold a lot more versatility that it their main draw for their viability.

I'm also wondering what's keeping Mega Venusaur A-? I'm aware that it just dropped, but it's honestly having so much trouble to solidify that place it has. I'm sure it's ranked higher than Amoonguss due to the fact that it actually has offensive presence, unlike Amoonguss, but it just doesn't do it's job well enough anymore to warrant a position above Amoonguss. Against all the things it's supposed to check like Keldeo, Clefable, and Azumarill it doesn't do it very well anymore. It's so prone to chip damage from sand, burns, hazards, and relying on Synthesis that it just gets overwhelmed so easily. Amoonguss is so much more forgiving with access to Regenerator and having more utility in Spore + Stun Spore + Clear Smog which made it so good in the first place. So in short, Mega Venusaur should share B+ with Amoonguss since it does have a perk in offensive prescene, but to flat out say it's better than Amoonguss isn't right and thus should be in B+ alongside it.

just want to say, i love how crisp and more definitive the ranking are now. shoutout to the ranking team for a good job
 
Mamoswine B- -> B

Mamoswine's amazing offensive typing and stats make it worthy of B tier or more. With Landorus-T,Garchomp,Excadrill,Heatran,and Tornadus-T becoming more and more common, Mamoswine can really shine. It 2HKOs or OHKOs most of the most common mons rn. Although Mamoswine is a Pokemon that requires a lot of predictions to use, as it relatively slow and one wrong prediction can be detrimental. It's also really easy to revenge kill, because of it's average 110/80/60 bulk and low speed. It also gets worn down really quickly due to LO recoil. Altough, Ice Shard is a really deadly move to Pokemon like the Lati's,Torn-T,etc. So anyway, Mamoswine is a definite threat but due it's average bulk and low speed I feel like it should be B tier or more.
 
Terrakion B+ -> A- (No) Terrak has some relevant uses with its scarf and band sets in particular, but its far from more reliable than amoong/starmie and cannot really be thought of as equal to a mlati/mgross. There's just too many common mons like lando-t, slowbro, and mlati going against it atm.

Nidoking B -> B+ (Yes) Nidoking is honestly such a threatening wallbreaker in this metagame. No matter what type of team you're facing, it's basically going to be doing a ton of damage unless you face a chansey or something. It also can take advantage of free switchins vs many mons like defensive lando-t, heatran, and more, as long as it's paired with the proper pokemon to get it free turns. It can be hard to build around at times, but few pokemon devastate balance quite like this thing.

Alakazam B -> B+ (Yes) While it does have the shortfall of being slower than weavile and torn-T, it is still a very threatening pokemon. Magic Guard is incredibly useful when facing spikes balance especially, and its speed tier allows it to outspeed a large majority of the metagame. I know the meta is working against it in some ways with chopletar, the rise of pursuit weavile, and clefable, etc... but this mon can run taunt, knock off, twave, and some other niche options to help deal with its common counters.

Raikou B -> B- (Yes) This thing has really lost its usefulness with the recent meta trends. The prevalence of mega latias, ferrothorn, tyranitar, gastrodon, amoonguss, clef, etc. just make it such a burden to have. Additionally, it really can't even fulfill the role of checking offensive threats well because stuff like thundurus kinda fell off while it doesn't even come into tornadus with knock and uturn. I truly just do not see any point of using this pokemon in current OU except for very few cases such as wanting some CM sweeper with spikes and pursuit support and a clef lure.
while i try to be objective as can be in this thread, some of the things you said really made me scratch my head lol. why are you comparing amoonguss and starmie with terrakion when they could not be more different in what they do? same with mlati and mgross, and even then they occupy mega slots so there is opportunity costs when using them added to the fact that they have to mega evo first to really show their mettle. land-t, slowbro, and mlati are not rock resists, and as for scarf, they should run toxic to break down those walls to compensate for firepower. also while i do think nido and zam should share the same rankings, its difficult to justify it being on the same level as say kyu-b who is also in b+. they just seem on par with the likes of breloom, dnite, and kingdra after factoring in opportunity costs and whatnot. your line of reasoning for nido is also really just telling us what we already know about nido, not so much of why it should rise. "threatens a shton of the tier, but needs proper support and free turns". i suppose i did forget about zam's niche in retaining magic guard, but that still doesn't really compare to the utility megazam provides. i agree with everything you said about raikou, but just because those may hinder it's effectiveness, it still is a splashable offensive electric pivot that forces switches nonetheless. the fact that you're able to force these switches means that your in a more prime position to control the flow of the battle. whether its aggressive double switching or volt switching on ground types and vice versa, you're still able to apply pressure even though they may have "answers" to raik in the first place. it's not so niche where it should drop to bl gimmick options in b- like hydreigon, mamoswine, and diggersby, but i suppose it's all perspective.
 
Terrakion B+ -> A-: Yes The band set is really powerful and a lot of teams use garbage rock resists. When they do have a relatively good rock resist normally its blown back by CB Close Combat. Add spikes and it's definitely a threat that needs acknowledging and holds a higher presence in the tier than what occupies B+. A-

Mew B+ -> B No. I dont like Mew too much but its defensive merits are pretty underrated being a check / annoyer to a handful of threats like M-Cham. You can cater different spreads to a teams need depending on what is in need of being defensively checked. The versatility of Mew is a stupid as hell argument cause where it shines best is its defensive traits. It's fine in B+.

Nidoking B -> B+ Neutral. I personally think its a bandwagon although it's still good.

Slowking B -> B+ Neutral. I like Slowking but Slowbro can be EV'd to do a lot of what Slowking manages to do while still maintaining that defensive merit of checking stuff like Lopunny and Char-X a bit better.

Alakazam B -> B+ No. Felt like this was already discussed before so not gonna go into it. Putting it above stuff like Reuniclus, Slowking, and Nidoking seems really weird as well.

Hippowdon B -> B+ no. I personally think Hippowdon isn't good and the defensive qualities are really for select builds not as a catch all crutch that it's being made out to be. Maybe it's just the way I build idk but I find Hippowdon to be less effective and a bad choice in comparison to the higher ranked stuff.

Mamoswine B- -> B No. No idea why you would raise this. While people are hyping it up in how it handles so much in practice it's a totally different story. It gets worn down too quickly, its a very match up based mon to myself, and theres some archetypes like M-Scizor Bulky Offenses that will threaten it
tremendously. It really only fits well on higher octane offenses which are already risky as is and Mamoswine doesn't sport a presence or level of effectivness like the B and up. It fits well alongside other specific mons like Crawdaunt and Dragalge.

Metagross B- -> B No. It works really well on select builds and then gets blocked / forced out by a lot of stuff. It's not a splashable mon similar reasons to Mamoswine. Rotom-W usage doesn't help and a lot of the top tier stuff threaten it.

Raikou B -> B- Neutral. Personally think Raikou is dogshit (ha get it) but putting it amongst some of the silliness that resides in B- isn't doing it justice.

Mega Beedrill C+ -> C yes. Not good, too many issues. I can go into more detail when I have more time.

Feraligatr C -> C+ Neutral. Havent used this in ages because I think it doesnt do anything unless you're facing a guy using an archetype from the year 2014 or something :/
 
while i try to be objective as can be in this thread, some of the things you said really made me scratch my head lol. why are you comparing amoonguss and starmie with terrakion when they could not be more different in what they do? same with mlati and mgross, and even then they occupy mega slots so there is opportunity costs when using them added to the fact that they have to mega evo first to really show their mettle. land-t, slowbro, and mlati are not rock resists, and as for scarf, they should run toxic to break down those walls to compensate for firepower. also while i do think nido and zam should share the same rankings, its difficult to justify it being on the same level as say kyu-b who is also in b+. they just seem on par with the likes of breloom, dnite, and kingdra after factoring in opportunity costs and whatnot. your line of reasoning for nido is also really just telling us what we already know about nido, not so much of why it should rise. "threatens a shton of the tier, but needs proper support and free turns". i suppose i did forget about zam's niche in retaining magic guard, but that still doesn't really compare to the utility megazam provides. i agree with everything you said about raikou, but just because those may hinder it's effectiveness, it still is a splashable offensive electric pivot that forces switches nonetheless. the fact that you're able to force these switches means that your in a more prime position to control the flow of the battle. whether its aggressive double switching or volt switching on ground types and vice versa, you're still able to apply pressure even though they may have "answers" to raik in the first place. it's not so niche where it should drop to bl gimmick options in b- like hydreigon, mamoswine, and diggersby, but i suppose it's all perspective.
I referenced starmie and all that to compare the consistency and viability of terrak to those with similar rankings. I also would equate raikou's viability to that of hydreigon, digs, etc. because it does absolutely nothing its supposed to right now. It can't revenge cm slowbro, come into talon/torn, sweep with cm, last long at all with AV. I just don't see the damn point in using it. In regards to nido, it may not be as bulky or versatile as kyurem but it's a lot more threatening to balance atm than kyu is. Kyurem still hates sr, is walled by some combo of clef + ttar, and is more easily pursuit trapped than Nido is. They pretty much fulfill the same role. If anything, kyurem just requires more support than nido due to the sr weakness and LO recoil. For alakazam, I think magic guard is better than trace in literally every single scenario besides tracing exca but exca is so easy to beat right now anyways. Hazards and sand are so prevalent that MG is basically always preferred, with no loss of firepower. The only relevant downside of using regular zam is that its pursuit trapped by weavile and outsped by tornt.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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Terrakion B+ -> A- No. I don't think Terrakion is nearly as splashable as the Pokemon in A- rank, and I think it would be an odd choice to raise it after we just deflated the rankings. In use, Terrakion is great, but it doesn't fit on many team styles, and brings a weakness to grond, steel, fighting, fairy, and water, which are already very difficult typings to cover. You have to build very specifically with Terrakion in mind in order to use it. I don't ever think to myself "well I have one slot left, banded Terrakion would be good here." I don't see what in the meta has changed to really warrant a rise.
Mew B+ -> B No. Mew is also not super splashable, but it actually shits on many teams due to how annoyingly bulky it is. I can see it falling if Spikes become more popular than they are now, because it's one of those mons that only just barely avoids 2HKOs, but it's fine where it is for now.
Nidoking B -> B+ No. I like Nidoking, and it's good, but it isn't as good as the other mons in B+. It has a lot of power, and it breaks holes in balanced teams very easily, but it's hard walled by stall with Chansey, and it doesn't have the bulk or speed to last against offense.
Alakazam B -> B+ Yes. I find Alakazam to be incredibly difficult to switch into. People keep saying it's inferior to Mega Zam which is true, but Mega Zam means you're using a mega, and Alakazam does not. It's power and speed make it a terrifying mon to switch into, and it has the ability to stallbreak, lure threats with its last moveslot, or provide sash t-wave in a pinch, which is super clutch and underrated imo.
Raikou B -> B- No. This thing may not be perfect, but it isn't so bad to drop to B- rank. Electric types in general are decently unprepared for. Amoongus gets set up on, Tangrowth and Mega Lati get Toxic'd, in general this thing can counter its own counters pretty well for a B rank mon.
Mega Beedrill C+ -> C Yes. This thing is bad in the current meta. Walled by a lot of things, hates hazards, and despises things with Rocky Helmet, which are everywhere right now. It pairs really well with Rotom-W though, which is the only reason I think it shouldn't be lower.

Everything else I don't care about.
 

CrashinBoomBang

MEIN BIZEPS BRENNT PERMANENT amk
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Being one of the people who originally started the Nidoking bandwagon (and probably one of the people to use it more than just about anybody), I feel like commenting on it is the least I could do.

I think people are still really, really underrating Nidoking in a lot of regards. When I look for something to provide help against fatter teams, Nidoking is usually my go-to guy nowadays because of 3 main factors that make it super good for Bulky Offensive teams:

1) Useful Defensive and Offensive typing: I don't think anyone really is going to argue with how good Ground/Poison coverage is in a tier when you get stuff like Ice Beam + Flamethrower, letting you muscle past 90% of the tier in 2 hits or less so there's really not much of a point to go indepths here. Defensively, I think people are still undervaluing just how important a basically ~100% Clefable switchin really is. Flamethrower does nothing except for when it burns and gives Nidoking a free turn to batter your team, Calm Mind does even less because of your absurdly powerful Sludge Wave, Moonblast is much of the same except a SAtk drop might mean that you won't hit as hard on the following turn, and Thunder Wave is obviously nulled. Knock Off is an inconvenience, but if Nidoking is your solitary Clefable check then there's probably other issues here. Clef is just way too important to only have Nidoking for, so you'll probably have enough of an opportunity to scout for it if nothing else. Apart from the big elephant in the room, Nidoking also deals okay with non Earth Power Diancie (which is pretty much all of them outside of Mag teams), and takes 1 hit from everything while forcing it out. Considering how annoying Diancie can be to switch into, having Nidoking over, say, Kyurem-B can be tremendously helpful. Klefki can also be annoying for bulky offensive teams to handle as it can be rather difficult to kill quickly, especially if you're trying to avoid something getting Thunder Waved (and as we all know stuff like Lando-T just gets kinda neutered by Magnet Rise. at least Nidoking can plow right through Klefki with Flamethrower). Does it handle a large portion of the metagame defensively? Obviously not, that is not its job after all,but I do think that the stuff it actually does handle it handles really well, not to mention that it's probably the best counter to the single best Pokemon in the whole metagame. I mean, just take a look at the A+ rank, Nidoking meshes well with every single Pokemon there (mostly the ones that provide momentum aka Rotom/Scizor/Tornadus), and I honestly think it's one of the best Pokemon you could possibly partner with anything that gives momentum nowadays.

2) Relative Immunity to passive damage: While Nidoking is still affected by Spikes, being able to come in on SR for almost free (especially compared to Kyurem-B, a Pokemon that has also been brought up as a "balance breaker" quite a few times recently) is incredible. There's a reason Pokemon such as Lopunny and Keldeo never seem to get chipped, resisting SR while still being immensely threatening to a broad range of Pokemon is just an incredible feature to have. I think this is the biggest draw Nidoking has over Kyurem, the fact that it can come in over and over during the course of a match while being unaffected (mostly) by not only Stealth Rock but also Sand, Life Orb recoil, and also Toxic/Thunder Wave by virtue of its typing. Sure, Kyurem is more unpredictable because it can run a plethora of sets, but I think that in the role of a balance breaker Nidoking is way better than Kyurem-B at this moment, especially with CB Tyranitar being incredibly common and incredibly threatening to Kyurem-B. Not to mention that your standard run-of-the-mill Kyurem-B is walled by Chansey much like Nidoking so I don't know why this is much of an argument... So am I saying that Nidoking is better than Kyurem? Well, yeah, I actually am, and I do realize that I am probably kinda biased in that regard, but I do think that Nidoking is pretty damn good right now while Kyu-B sucks something fierce, mostly because it's hard for it to actually survive for more than 4 turns. Which brings me to my last point.

3) Reliability: Those two points together basically make up this one, but there's more to it than that too. I just find Nidoking to be an incredibly reliable Pokemon, both over the course of a single match as well as over the course of multiple ones. It just feels like it's never really dead weight, and the reason for that is that it threatens so much while also being able to survive over the course of a whole game, for the most part. The last big thing about Nidoking compared to a lot of other Pokemon is that all of its moves have 100 accuracy. When we take a look at Tornadus-T or even Alakazam, I don't think anyone is going to argue that they're outright bad, but matter of fact is that Hurricane is not a reliable move to throw around, and I'm sure everyone has had games where Tornadus simply couldn't perform because of that. As for Alakazam, having to hit Focus Blast against all 3 of Tyranitar, Heatran, and Ferrothorn is an incredible drawback that people seem to be forgetting. Sure, if it always hit Focus Blast it would be an incredible force, but I just don't think reliability can completely be disregarded when ranking a Pokemon (even if it obviously shouldn't be the leading factor here). Just look at the higher ranks, I'm sure half the reason Clefable and Rotom-W are so good is that they perform their duties extremely, well, reliably. With Alakazam, not only do you have to hit Focus Blast, but you'll also have to watch out for stuff like Clefable pivoting into a Focus Blast (and it's not like Psychic even 2HKOs SpDef versions apart from ridiculous rolls/crits/drops), and subsequently forcing you out. With Nidoking it just feels like, even if you mispredict, it's not that big of a deal, mostly because all its moves deal ridiculous amounts of damage and you only have to hit stuff like Mega Latias/Torn-T on the switch once to invalidate them as switch-ins.

In short, I think that Nidoking has enough of its own advantages and actually a pretty short list of shortcomings (mostly mediocre speed, only passable bulk, and a hard time getting past Chansey/Gastrodon/Jellicent/Slowking/Mew) to differentiate it and, in my opinion, at least put it at least on the same level as Kyurem-B. It doesn't have to contend with all the passive damage Kyu-B racks up over the course of the game, it doesn't have the lack of complete bulk/defensive typing/reliability Alakazam has (those two obviously have their own advantages, but I won't get into that because this post is about Nidoking), and being able to switch into most Clefable sets effortlessly is something that deserves a ton of merit by itself. Move my boy up to B+.

I'll probably comment on all the other drops/rises a bit later, but this is the one I care the most about for now.
 
There are two things on the current slate I feel I can comment on.

Terrakion B+ -> A- No. Sure, Terrakion can put in work when put in the right situation, but there are a myriad of ways to cover it between priority, bulky physical walls and select faster Scarfers. Slowbro in particular takes a steaming dump on Terrakion unless it's Adamant SD(or Band with X-Scissor but that's uncommon)...which then leaves it open to quite a few threats(positive base 100s and above for instance, and this is a crowded speed tier) due to the drop in Speed. And each set comes with it's own assorted flaws. It has merits, mind you, but the existing roadblocks keep it from rising, imho.

Mew B+ -> B No. This thing is annoyingly bulky, and without an effective answer Mew can be quite a nuisance. Tanking non super-effective special attacks like a champ on top of having Will-O-Wisp for those physical mons and reliable recovery, plus the always infuriating(except to Megas) Knock Off at it's disposal. Mew is fine where it is; a viable mon that nonetheless has a number of common answers. It shouldn't move down.
 
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How does one 2HKO "shit" most of the time with only 115 special attack indeed boosted by Specs but with a non-stabbed move with only 80 BP? Whats the "shit" you are talking about? Or calcs, please?
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 222-262 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 120-142 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 137-162 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- guarenteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 170-201 (47 - 55.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 274-324 (104.9 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 214-252 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 240-284 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 170-200 (46.8 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 124-147 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
...Any many many more
You were saying? Offense is still common for your information and shadow ball puts in a ton of work vs most common "electric" switch ins on offense, which is really nice.

Not only that, but Raikou puts in quite a bit of work vs underprepared builds with cm sets. SubCM can sub up on shit like lati draco and set up quite easily and cm volt is a nasty late game surprise for opponents that think it's just a 4 attacks raikou and can really maintain momentum like other Raikou sets not to mention how fucking good toxic is at wearing down normal Raikou counters. Raikou is more than just a "worse version of manectric" and shouldn't be ranked so lowly because of it. Also, please don't yell at me for "theorymonning" because these are calcs that he specifically asked for and most of them are 2hkos after the little chip damage that these mons tend to take over the course of a match. (or ohkos in the case of like mmeta coming into lati draco).
 
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sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
Latias to A-

Provides a ton of support with Defog, Healing Wish, and sometimes even Memento. It does pretty good damage for a support mon with Draco and Psyshock. It pairs well with a lot of other megas such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross, and other hard hitting mons. Didn't this use to be A- too? Literally no reason to move this down, it is still fantastic at what it does, being a bulky dragon that can support.

Raikou is still really good I have no idea why there is so much hate for it :/
With the shift to a slower meta Raikou shines as a good, hard hitting volt switcher. It has two sets that it can take full advantage of and still deals a ton of damage. I really still don't understand why people dislike Raikou so much.

Also why is Oma so high? Literally the only thing it does to my knowledge is be a good Swift Swim user and even then you are probably taking Kingdra due to it having a better typing.

Also can we add back links to the analysis page for the mons? It was pretty convenient on the old thread. Thanks =D
 
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Terrakion B+ -> A-: Disagree
It's undeniable that Terrakion is a rather powerful wallbreaker that most teams aren't really prepared for. It has a phenomenal offensive typing, and with a Choice Band, his extremely hard. However, I feel like that it should only remain at B+ due to the fact that a lot of the current metagame just shits on this thing. It pretty much loses to almost all of the A+ and S tier mons (Scarf Terrak can deal with some of them like Torn-T) and with common influxes of mons like Amoonguss, Mega Lati, and Slowbro, I feel like that this thing just doesn't have what it takes to succeed in this metagame.


Mew B+ -> B: Disagree
While Mew struggles to find a good spot on a team due to competition from other Defoggers, Stealth Rockers, Stall Breaker etc. The more common set of Knock Off, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Soft Boiled is still quite good being able to check a large number of the current metagame and be an overall nuisance for some teams due to its bulk. I feel like that its expansive movepool is what allows it to stay relatively high, being able to run effective lure sets. While defensive Mews are more common, Mew can effectively run more offensive sets that surprise opponents such as Pursuit Trappers like Bisharp. The fact that Mew has such a large surprise factor is why I think its B+, having options like Baton Pass, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Fire Blast etc. Mew also is a really reliable switch into some of the tiers trends, especially Mega Medicham, who Mew effectively walls and is able to Will-o-Wisp should it be running it.

Nidoking B -> B+: Strongly Agree
With the metagame shifting in favor of more bulky teams, and less so of faster, more offensive teams, Nidoking is given a bigger opportunity to shine. It's coverage combined with its ability to threaten numerous top tier threats, especially Clefable, Defensive Lando-T, Heatran etc. allow it to wall break and force switches with ease. It can even run interesting lures such as Superpower to threaten would be switch-ins like Chansey. While it does face competition from other wallbreakers and is essentially deadweight vs hyper offense, I feel like that Nidoking has the traits it needs to reason its usage over other wallbreakers like Gengar and Torn-T. Not to mention, it has a great typing both offensively and defensively, being essentially unphazed by 3 status conditions unless running Superpower. It also has a useful resistance to Rocks, which is something it can boast over Kyurem-B, as well as removing the rare Toxic Spikes. Nidokings coverage options are too insane to simply ignore, and I feel like people seriously underrate this guy. You can't ignore the fact that his coverage and power allows him to muscle past a large majority of the tier.

Raikou B -> B-: Disagree
Raikou may not be as good as it once was, but I don't think its bad enough to drop it down to B-. Sure it receives heavy competition from the likes of Mega Mane and Thundurus who threaten offense better, have better coverage and Thundurus has the added benefit of being able to Stallbreak/Wallbreak with its Nasty Plot and Taunt sets. The metagame does seem to really shit on Raikou at the moment though, as Raikou struggles against common things like Amoonguss, Clef, Ttar and M-Lati. However, I don't really see a need to drop it to B- when its closest competition, Mega Mane, resides in B+. I don't think theres THAT big of a gap between the two, and certainly don't think that Raikou should be in a rank amongst the likes of rarely seen, albeit somewhat decent mons like Diggersby and Mega Chomp. It does have a niche in being able to set up on some of its would be checks with its Sub+CM set, and can act as a bulkier pivot than Mega Man with its AV set. However, it just feels underwhelming without any boost, so AV is kinda meh rn anyways.


 
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252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 222-262 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 120-142 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 137-162 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- guarenteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 170-201 (47 - 55.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 274-324 (104.9 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 214-252 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 240-284 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 170-200 (46.8 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 124-147 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
...Any many many more
You were saying? Offense is still common for your information and shadow ball puts in a ton of work vs most common "electric" switch ins on offense, which is really nice.

Not only that, but Raikou puts in quite a bit of work vs underprepared builds with cm sets. SubCM can sub up on shit like lati draco and set up quite easily and cm volt is a nasty late game surprise for opponents that think it's just a 4 attacks raikou and can really maintain momentum like other Raikou sets not to mention how fucking good toxic is at wearing down normal Raikou counters. Raikou is more than just a "worse version of manectric" and shouldn't be ranked so lowly because of it. Also, please don't yell at me for "theorymonning" because these are calcs that he specifically asked for and most of them are 2hkos after the little chip damage that these mons tend to take over the course of a match. (or ohkos in the case of like mmeta coming into lati draco).
Its not yelling at you, its asking you to bring more evidence with what you're saying.

Great calcs, except you're making them out of what looks like pure offense teams, wich their goal is not to stomach your hits at all, but rather find an opportunity to set up on or just RK your Raikou. Balance and bulky offense, based on these calcs are going to eat your Shadow Balls for days, and if the best Pokémon in the tier decides to invest in Sp.Defense and use Unnaware, you are walled by it. Earlier in the thread before this one, people were talking about the droping of Elektrik types, and if you look at what Raikou can really manage to do in this meta, there is no doubt as to why. Sure CM is very good, yeah you got a very good speed tier, but Raikou looks like a very predictable mon and the simplest of balance team with a decent deffensive core are going to stomach your hits and play around you because you got only 115 sp.Atk with a Jolly nature. Gotta give props to Sub/Toxic though as it is true that it works well as a lure. But Raikou is just overshadowed in this meta, and even by the best Pokémon in it when it comes to a CM set. Not to mention its relative frailtiness and the fact that he is weak to Earthquake wich is basically the most used move in all Metas since Generation 1. Keep Raikou at B,i ts not bad, it shouldnt drop, it just struggles a lot and still has competition from the likes of Prank Thundy and MegaMane for the momentum gain.
 
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