I'm inclined to agree with you, but from what I can tell C+ mons look to be on vastly different levels (Mega Beedrill has a much higher opportunity cost and is much more limited than, Hawlucha, Scolipede, or Zapados for example), I think the logic for it not being that viable right now (along with many other psychic types) would be due to pursuit trapping being very common. I'd support a potential rise based on the fact that pursuit trapping it requires a large risk or 50-50 due to U-turn, and fighting coverage, or potentially switching into a banded V-create
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)
- Thread starter bludz
- Start date
You don't need an essay on why you think a mon on the slate should rise or drop. But if your only comment is "disagree" or "its not that good" then just leave that nom out of your post because such comments don't promote any intelligent discussion.
Regarding Victini I think it's a decent wallbreaker with a lot of viable options (specs is cool, try it). That said, its hazard and Pursuit weak - a horrible combination because many of the best hazard removers are Pursuit weak as well. It essentially has pretty bad defensive synergy with a lot of the meta. Its hard to justify over other fire types that offer better defensive synergy and can still stallbreak in the case of Talon/Heatran or wallbreak in the case of Volcanion. Victini certainly has a niche over these other mons but U-turn for example is ass on rocks weak mons (Volt Switch Thundy anyone???). Its current positive and unique attributes over other fire types and wallbreakers in the tier are already taken into account with its current ranking.
Regarding Omastar I personally don't think it should rise. I won't lie I'm not an avid user of Rain teams but I've played with and against them enough to have a reasonable idea of what I'm talking about (and yes Omastar is an under the radar breaker). Swamperts typing is such a boon to rain since preventing Volt Switch is huge for momentum purposes - yes Omastar will best elecs 1v1 with rain up but you gotta get it out there, can't get VoltTurned all over even if rain went up. Granted I'll admit other trends like Phys Def Tangrowth are things going against Mega Pert. My real issue with Omastar is that choice locked rain sweepers suffer a lot especially with more bulky answers to water type moves gaining viability. Volcanion definitely had a big impact on this by promoting other Water Absorb mons, mons like Slowking and of course being a massive threat to rain itself. Kingdra suffers many of these same issues to be honest but Dragon STAB is a cure to the woes and obviously why it remains the best of the bunch. I have no comments on Shell Smash set since I've only been in a battle against them once or twice, and have yet to try one myself (pass me squads :3). Also Sweep dont worry its not off topic - the slates are meant to guide discussion (mostly away from Sylveon kthx) but that doesn't exclude other noms from being discussed.
I'll give my thoughts on the slate later since this post already ballooned up. I think p2's noms are also good points of discussion for what its worth, probably better than the Mamoswine point at least lol which ben gay alluded to being not the greatest.
Regarding Victini I think it's a decent wallbreaker with a lot of viable options (specs is cool, try it). That said, its hazard and Pursuit weak - a horrible combination because many of the best hazard removers are Pursuit weak as well. It essentially has pretty bad defensive synergy with a lot of the meta. Its hard to justify over other fire types that offer better defensive synergy and can still stallbreak in the case of Talon/Heatran or wallbreak in the case of Volcanion. Victini certainly has a niche over these other mons but U-turn for example is ass on rocks weak mons (Volt Switch Thundy anyone???). Its current positive and unique attributes over other fire types and wallbreakers in the tier are already taken into account with its current ranking.
Regarding Omastar I personally don't think it should rise. I won't lie I'm not an avid user of Rain teams but I've played with and against them enough to have a reasonable idea of what I'm talking about (and yes Omastar is an under the radar breaker). Swamperts typing is such a boon to rain since preventing Volt Switch is huge for momentum purposes - yes Omastar will best elecs 1v1 with rain up but you gotta get it out there, can't get VoltTurned all over even if rain went up. Granted I'll admit other trends like Phys Def Tangrowth are things going against Mega Pert. My real issue with Omastar is that choice locked rain sweepers suffer a lot especially with more bulky answers to water type moves gaining viability. Volcanion definitely had a big impact on this by promoting other Water Absorb mons, mons like Slowking and of course being a massive threat to rain itself. Kingdra suffers many of these same issues to be honest but Dragon STAB is a cure to the woes and obviously why it remains the best of the bunch. I have no comments on Shell Smash set since I've only been in a battle against them once or twice, and have yet to try one myself (pass me squads :3). Also Sweep dont worry its not off topic - the slates are meant to guide discussion (mostly away from Sylveon kthx) but that doesn't exclude other noms from being discussed.
I'll give my thoughts on the slate later since this post already ballooned up. I think p2's noms are also good points of discussion for what its worth, probably better than the Mamoswine point at least lol which ben gay alluded to being not the greatest.
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Why the fuck did this drop in the first place, it's really good right now. The addition of Volcanion has really helped it, and the amount of good things in OU it checks right now is crazy. Charizard Y, Mega Gyarados, Keldeo, Manaphy, Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, etc. All of which are really good in OU right now. And even a lot of things that give it trouble, such as Altaria-Mega, Hippowdon, and Kyurem-Black, haven't been too common/great in OU lately. And even things that are good and common in OU that DO give it trouble like Landorus-Therian, Excadrill, Aerodactyl-Mega, Gliscor and Talonflame, don't enjoy switching in on some of it's attacks. I think that this Pokemon's pros make it good enough for A- or A.
Definitely support Mamoswine moving up from B- to B. His LO attacker set is really unprepared for atm and hits like a truck with icicle crash and earthquake. Mamo can revenge kill popular mons like lando, thundy, and torn-t with ice shard along with the super popular Volcanion with earthquake. Another pretty underrated option he has right now is freeze dry which wrecks some defensive mons like quagsire and gastrodon and can occasionally catch an unsuspecting gyarados or in the case of a rain team, swampert. Taking a look at the mons in B rank I think that he fits in much better. While this might be a stretch, I would compare him to LO Breloom in that both are around the same speed tier with access to priority, have useful offensive typing, and can really punish unprepared teams. I think where the really differ is that Breloom has the utility in Spore and Mamo hits a little bit harder.
Looking at the other noms, one that stands out to me is Nidoking moving up. While I do not have experience using it, I have had plenty of matchups against it and I can easily say it is not fun to play against, especially if you're running stall or semi-stall. Because its rather fragile defensive stats, Nidoking isn't too hard to prepare for for offense which have options to outspeed and kill it. Overall, playing against Nidoking is somewhat comparable to a worse Lando-I as both are powerful special attackers with great coverage. Nidoking obviously falls short with a worse speed tier and debatably worse typing.
So yeah, Mamo and Nidoking should both rise.
Looking at the other noms, one that stands out to me is Nidoking moving up. While I do not have experience using it, I have had plenty of matchups against it and I can easily say it is not fun to play against, especially if you're running stall or semi-stall. Because its rather fragile defensive stats, Nidoking isn't too hard to prepare for for offense which have options to outspeed and kill it. Overall, playing against Nidoking is somewhat comparable to a worse Lando-I as both are powerful special attackers with great coverage. Nidoking obviously falls short with a worse speed tier and debatably worse typing.
So yeah, Mamo and Nidoking should both rise.
In all honesty, the things which Mega Manectric checks like Mega Gyarados, Zard-Y and Manaphy are barely seen in OU currently ; even if they do, they'll have something to switch into it for sure. Sure, it checks Volcanion but the addition of Volcanion also means more Mega Latias and Gastrodon. Sand is still very popular and Excadrill punishes it very hard. Finally, Band Tyranitar can punish Manectric very hard, especially in Spikes teams (and this kind of team also discourages Volt Switching - Mega manectric's biggest selling point)from B+ to A- or A
Why the fuck did this drop in the first place, it's really good right now. The addition of Volcanion has really helped it, and the amount of good things in OU it checks right now is crazy. Charizard Y, Mega Gyarados, Keldeo, Manaphy, Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, etc. All of which are really good in OU right now. And even a lot of things that give it trouble, such as Altaria-Mega, Hippowdon, and Kyurem-Black, haven't been too common/great in OU lately. And even things that are good and common in OU that DO give it trouble like Landorus-Therian, Excadrill, Aerodactyl-Mega, Gliscor and Talonflame, don't enjoy switching in on some of it's attacks. I think that this Pokemon's pros make it good enough for A- or A.
not to mention that pretty much all mega gyarados should be jolly with earthquake, in addition to stuff like zard beating you 1 on 1 and mega manectric being completely unable to switch into every single other mon (even scizor uses u-turn a ton nowadays so it's not like you'll come in for free against it), making it a pretty terrible check to everything on that list bar, funnily enough, talonflame, which you listed to be something that gives manectric trouble.
pretty sure I'm speaking for the whole team here when I say that MMane is not moving up for now. move on please.
pretty sure I'm speaking for the whole team here when I say that MMane is not moving up for now. move on please.
I just have a quick question about Bisharp. I noticed its ranked below the other 2 dark types (Weavile and Tyranitar, Mega Gyrados does not really do what they do so I'm not counting it) and I just would like to know why that is. With the meta getting bulkier you would think Bisharp would thrive in that. Its slower than the other 2 and packs more of a punch so I'm not quite getting the logic here. I mean the only thing that really separates them in the first place is there attack, speed, STAB's and moves and Bisharp does not have it worse to the point of being below them. Although this is more of a question then a nom.
Hydreigon for B rank.
I feel like Hydreigon didnt lost all its perks of Gen 5 as a great wallbreaker and thus shouldnt be dropped that down. Hydreigon has very good overall stats, his Sp Attakc is nothing to scoff at while his Attack stat is very usable. He has a great typing that synergies very well with the psychics of the tier, namely MMetagross and Jirachi, the later ganing mre popularity recently. Hydreigon's typing is also great offensively, Dragon being decent and Dark being one of the best offensive typing in the game. I also want to point out something important concerning him, wich is his Movepool. Hydreigon's movepool is amazing, he has all the coverage moves he needs to get past would-be checks or counters like Steels, and some of the only Pokemons who can totally wall him out are Clefable, Mega Altaria and the fat blobs.
Hydreigon being kind of hard to switch into,he gives some trouble to offense and H-Offense teams and can occasionally be tricky for balance, this because of his great movepool that has the possibilty to hit nearly anything for neutral or super effective damage. Heatran doesnt want Surf in the face, the steels are obviously burned out by flamethrower, opposing darks are blown back by Focus Blast, and ya got trouble with the blobs? You got Superpower to finish these off if you weakened them. And on top of that, you got U-Turn for scouting. However, even though I really, really like Hydreigon as a great Pokemon for offensive cores due to his typing, he falls in a very meh speed tier, but it is still a great tier when you use Hydreigon against balance. Hydreigon is kind of unpredictable due to the item he can hold (Lefties, Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf) but he also got a very, very decent bulk, and on top of that, a great ability and reliable recovery. Substitute sets may be an option for Hydreigon ive never saw, with Roost and toxic for exemple, due to his above mentionned defensive abilities.
I know Hydreigon is not the best wallbreaker, nor the best dragon out of there and is probably outclassed by Kyurem-B in this role, but his movepool, possibilities, kind of unpredicability, good all-around stats and great synergy with a lot of top-tiers should make this poor gen 5 monster be at least B rank.
I feel like Hydreigon didnt lost all its perks of Gen 5 as a great wallbreaker and thus shouldnt be dropped that down. Hydreigon has very good overall stats, his Sp Attakc is nothing to scoff at while his Attack stat is very usable. He has a great typing that synergies very well with the psychics of the tier, namely MMetagross and Jirachi, the later ganing mre popularity recently. Hydreigon's typing is also great offensively, Dragon being decent and Dark being one of the best offensive typing in the game. I also want to point out something important concerning him, wich is his Movepool. Hydreigon's movepool is amazing, he has all the coverage moves he needs to get past would-be checks or counters like Steels, and some of the only Pokemons who can totally wall him out are Clefable, Mega Altaria and the fat blobs.
Hydreigon being kind of hard to switch into,he gives some trouble to offense and H-Offense teams and can occasionally be tricky for balance, this because of his great movepool that has the possibilty to hit nearly anything for neutral or super effective damage. Heatran doesnt want Surf in the face, the steels are obviously burned out by flamethrower, opposing darks are blown back by Focus Blast, and ya got trouble with the blobs? You got Superpower to finish these off if you weakened them. And on top of that, you got U-Turn for scouting. However, even though I really, really like Hydreigon as a great Pokemon for offensive cores due to his typing, he falls in a very meh speed tier, but it is still a great tier when you use Hydreigon against balance. Hydreigon is kind of unpredictable due to the item he can hold (Lefties, Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf) but he also got a very, very decent bulk, and on top of that, a great ability and reliable recovery. Substitute sets may be an option for Hydreigon ive never saw, with Roost and toxic for exemple, due to his above mentionned defensive abilities.
I know Hydreigon is not the best wallbreaker, nor the best dragon out of there and is probably outclassed by Kyurem-B in this role, but his movepool, possibilities, kind of unpredicability, good all-around stats and great synergy with a lot of top-tiers should make this poor gen 5 monster be at least B rank.
Terrakion B+ -> A-
This should definitely rise, the amount of teams which rely on Lando/Garchomp as they're primary Rock resist who just get blown back by this thing due to it being able to come in so often and threaten half of the meta out. The scarf set is so lethal against offense, with BO being the most common playstyle currently, common mons such as Mega Diancie are stopped by Iron Head, while it also has a decent matchup against sand, obviously except when its up for excadrill. CB does a serious number on balance which is beginning to hugely rise in popularity, with the Ferro/Tran/Lati builds having no solid ways of switching into this mon; who can also act as a decent stallbreaker thanks to Taunt + SD. Rise
Hippowdon B -> B+
Disagree. This thing was seen as a messiah when it was taken from UU, VoltTurn was so prevalent at the time, even causing mons like Raikou to rise as well as a result; Hippo was the perfect answer, being a detterent to just spam Volt Switch, while also taking nothing from HP Ice made it seem perfect for the meta. But it finds it so hard to do its job these days, sand is still everywhere for good reason, and electrics just don't appreciate that, the only stand out electrics atm are Thundurus, who can freely NP and Grass Knot on it and Rotom-W who can burn/Hydro. Without WW it's set up bait, and without stone edge, Flying types and levitators just get free switches to Uturn/Defog. While its a great stop to MegaLopunny & Talonflame if Physdef; the popularity of Medicham, Weavile and stuff like SD Chomp/Lando, means that Hippo really struggles against almost all archetypes atm. Waters are everywhere too, with Volcanion and Keldeo being everpresent, constantly forcing Hippo out. It's still a decent blanket check to the weaker physical attackers and is a great sand provider which is why it should Remain in B
Raikou B -> B-
Drop. Raikou is so underwhelming in play, it's easy to switch into and its awful coverage means that it barely threatens anything out. Right now, I'd rather use Scarfed Thundurus-T just because of the option to run Blast, Grass Knot, Superpower etc, Raikou relies on Electric + Ice + Psychic, the latter pretty much only hitting Venusaur but you might as well just Volt out anyway. It's so easy to wear down with hazards and as mentioned before, sand being everywhere hurts it; it cannot touch Excadrill and Ttar (outside of Aura Sphere if you're feeling rash) and it gets pursuited or loses momentum. Its CM set struggles too, as it's so easy to switch something in on the boost to then force it out straight away, and without the boost, Raikou's power is awful. Drop to B-
On another note, can Mega Latias go up to A? It's the main staple alongside Scizor on balance and it's easy to see why. The thing is so hard to break and has so many support options. While the boltbeam set forces out a large plethora of mons, I think that having this in conjunction with a CM set really sets Lati apart from the rest of A-. Having access to Reflect Type, TWave, Stored Power, Latias can set up CMs on half of the meta, such as Keldeo, Tornadus, Heatran, all staples on most archetypes so you're almost guaranteed to get a few setup opportunities throughout the game. Heck, you can even cheese past Clefable with TWave/ReflectType + SP. This thing is just an overall monster and so hard to actually take down, and just as hard to switch into until you know what kind of set it's running. Even with pursuit running around; it can afford to stay in on mons like Scarf Tar whose Crunch does a maximum of 63%, and it can Reflect Type on pretty much any other not named Weavile and then freely switch out after. Mega Latias A- -> A
This should definitely rise, the amount of teams which rely on Lando/Garchomp as they're primary Rock resist who just get blown back by this thing due to it being able to come in so often and threaten half of the meta out. The scarf set is so lethal against offense, with BO being the most common playstyle currently, common mons such as Mega Diancie are stopped by Iron Head, while it also has a decent matchup against sand, obviously except when its up for excadrill. CB does a serious number on balance which is beginning to hugely rise in popularity, with the Ferro/Tran/Lati builds having no solid ways of switching into this mon; who can also act as a decent stallbreaker thanks to Taunt + SD. Rise
Hippowdon B -> B+
Disagree. This thing was seen as a messiah when it was taken from UU, VoltTurn was so prevalent at the time, even causing mons like Raikou to rise as well as a result; Hippo was the perfect answer, being a detterent to just spam Volt Switch, while also taking nothing from HP Ice made it seem perfect for the meta. But it finds it so hard to do its job these days, sand is still everywhere for good reason, and electrics just don't appreciate that, the only stand out electrics atm are Thundurus, who can freely NP and Grass Knot on it and Rotom-W who can burn/Hydro. Without WW it's set up bait, and without stone edge, Flying types and levitators just get free switches to Uturn/Defog. While its a great stop to MegaLopunny & Talonflame if Physdef; the popularity of Medicham, Weavile and stuff like SD Chomp/Lando, means that Hippo really struggles against almost all archetypes atm. Waters are everywhere too, with Volcanion and Keldeo being everpresent, constantly forcing Hippo out. It's still a decent blanket check to the weaker physical attackers and is a great sand provider which is why it should Remain in B
Raikou B -> B-
Drop. Raikou is so underwhelming in play, it's easy to switch into and its awful coverage means that it barely threatens anything out. Right now, I'd rather use Scarfed Thundurus-T just because of the option to run Blast, Grass Knot, Superpower etc, Raikou relies on Electric + Ice + Psychic, the latter pretty much only hitting Venusaur but you might as well just Volt out anyway. It's so easy to wear down with hazards and as mentioned before, sand being everywhere hurts it; it cannot touch Excadrill and Ttar (outside of Aura Sphere if you're feeling rash) and it gets pursuited or loses momentum. Its CM set struggles too, as it's so easy to switch something in on the boost to then force it out straight away, and without the boost, Raikou's power is awful. Drop to B-
On another note, can Mega Latias go up to A? It's the main staple alongside Scizor on balance and it's easy to see why. The thing is so hard to break and has so many support options. While the boltbeam set forces out a large plethora of mons, I think that having this in conjunction with a CM set really sets Lati apart from the rest of A-. Having access to Reflect Type, TWave, Stored Power, Latias can set up CMs on half of the meta, such as Keldeo, Tornadus, Heatran, all staples on most archetypes so you're almost guaranteed to get a few setup opportunities throughout the game. Heck, you can even cheese past Clefable with TWave/ReflectType + SP. This thing is just an overall monster and so hard to actually take down, and just as hard to switch into until you know what kind of set it's running. Even with pursuit running around; it can afford to stay in on mons like Scarf Tar whose Crunch does a maximum of 63%, and it can Reflect Type on pretty much any other not named Weavile and then freely switch out after. Mega Latias A- -> A
i know its not on the slate but i would like to nominate Tentacruel to move up B-. The biggest reason for this is that it straight out counters two huge threats right now, clefable and volcanion. Its SpD fully invested is pretty impressive, taking about 37% from rotom-w volt switch making it a decent check to that as well. I'm guessing that its C+ right now based on its rapid spin and toxic spikes abilities but i want to introduce a set ive used to excellent effect so far:
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Spray
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
This set beats so many special attackers with its bulk, typing, and ability. Liquid Ooze is important to beat any m-venusaur not carrying earthquake. Clefable flat out loses even if you switch in when its at +2 thanks to acid spray, volcanion does a laughable 27% with steam eruption. Even stuff you would expect to lose to you stand a fair chance against, such as mono-attacker megabro and LO gengar. The best part is that it isnt really that passive given its chance to spread burns or slash your opponents SpD. Heres some shitty replays that kind of demonstrate my point
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-372106152
I know this guy sucks but the replay does show some of tentacruels abilities
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-372124985
Perfect showcase of how much it wrecks clefable and volcanion
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Spray
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
This set beats so many special attackers with its bulk, typing, and ability. Liquid Ooze is important to beat any m-venusaur not carrying earthquake. Clefable flat out loses even if you switch in when its at +2 thanks to acid spray, volcanion does a laughable 27% with steam eruption. Even stuff you would expect to lose to you stand a fair chance against, such as mono-attacker megabro and LO gengar. The best part is that it isnt really that passive given its chance to spread burns or slash your opponents SpD. Heres some shitty replays that kind of demonstrate my point
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-372106152
I know this guy sucks but the replay does show some of tentacruels abilities
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-372124985
Perfect showcase of how much it wrecks clefable and volcanion
terrakion has proven to be a really great wallbreaker. like p2 said, rock / fighting coverage + band terrakion's strength makes the thing very annoying to switch into... even for stuff that counters it on paper. it's capable of wearing stuff down really easily, especially on the typical bulky offensive builds that have been featuring terrakion lately. with pivots like rotom-w to bring it in, terrakion is capable of easily punching a hole somewhere in your opponent's team. also, terrakion is definitely a good level above pretty much everything else in B+, and it's more on par with some of the A- rank stuff like mega heracross.
since hoopa-u's departure from the tier, there really haven't been many wallbreakers that are as pressuring as it was. band terrakion and other powerful choiced attackers sorta took its place on bulky offense builds that use slow pivots to make up for shitty speed tiers, but as far as stuff that doesn't need to be choice-locked to punch holes, you're mostly limited to megas like medicham, heracross, gardevoir, etc.. other than kyurem-b, nidoking is one of few non-mega wallbreakers in the tier that has a good amount of consistency. cbb's post highlighted a lot of the pros: good typing, resistances against certain forms of passive damage, and reliability. in addition to that, it's pretty obvious that nidoking has great coverage & power, and it gets to actually switch its moves!!! i don't think nidoking is a "hoopa replacement", but with hoopa gone, nidoking does stand out a bit more, and i definitely think it's on the same level as kyurem-b.
okay i get that everyone wants to be on the "hippowdon sucks" train nowadays, and while it has generally declined, i don't think it should be as low as B rank. while landorus-t and garchomp (even though tankchomp isn't as popular anymore) can fill the role of bulky / defensive ground, they don't totally outrank hippowdon. yes, hippowdon is passive as hell compared to those (and gliscor), but it provides more defensive consistency. hippo is capable of checking things like electrics, and (with a more specially defensive spread) mega diancie and tornadus-t, whereas bulkier lando-t / chomp sets really can't handle them. also, hippo can check both bisharp and zard-x, whereas chomp / lando-t can only check one each (bisharp for chomp, zard-x for lando-t). finally, hippo is just much more reliable in defensively checking stuff in general thanks to slack off lol. so yeah, hippo is super passive, but when you need to check a bunch of stuff on a balance or stall team and chomp / lando-t can't really do the job, hippo can easily. finally, i'm pretty sure hippo is a clear level above things like dragonite, politoed, and quagsire, and it fits in better with stuff like starmie, amoonguss, mew, etc..
i really don't think raikou should drop any further ;~;. yeah raikou isn't really as good as it once was, but it's still a pretty nice electric. the electrics as a whole have seemingly dropped in viability a bit, but that doesn't mean raikou needs to keep on going. it's simply a clear level above things like regular scizor, alomomola, mamoswine, mega garchomp, celebi....
there's a recurring theme of A rank's standards (as a whole like A+ / A / A-) that sorta tie in with the next few mons i'm gonna post about. it's pretty clear that the A ranks went through substantial shifts, with things like mega metagross and thundurus-i dropping from A+ to A-, keldeo and torn-t dropping from S to A+, mega sableye, talonflame, and mega lopunny dropping from A+ to A, etc.; however, things seem a bit jumbled up right now. what makes an S rank mon has been cleared up and is acceptable for sure, but A+ seems sorta different now... it went from being totally filled to now having very few mons. most of these mons in A+ are the glue / staple mons that really help to define the tier; whereas the less-defining mons that put a bunch of pressure on the tier have seemed to drop to A. since this hasn't really been cleared up since the revamp, i'm just gonna go with these observations while making / discussing these next few noms :3.
p2 already did a great job of summarizing this already, but to add to it... bisharp is about as good as weavile as an offensive dark; i'd say weavile is a little better, but not a whole rank better. while weavile is faster, equipped with ice / dark coverage, and more focused on immediate power, bisharp is a bit slower & bulkier with more focus on setting up to punch holes. bisharp also carries some neat traits that aren't comparable to anything weavile can do like defiant to pressure defog and a rock resistance meaning it doesn't get worn down like crazy between lorb and rocks (like weavile does). bisharp is capable of really posing a threat to both defensive builds and offensive builds (even though the sucker punch 50/50s are annoying v. offensive stuff it's still a huge threat), and it's a pretty huge pain in the butt to check in the builder.
mega latias is a hugeee deal atm. it's super nice on balanced and bulky offensive builds, it can check a bunch of important stuff like keldeo, electrics, volcanion, grasses, etc., and it has some variety to its sets. support, for example, can run thunder wave, defog, reflect type, refresh, a third attack, etc., and calm mind can go with reflect type or two attacks (with a variety of different attack combinations). there isn't really much to be said that hasn't been said; this thing checks the stuff you want a lati to check as efficiently as possible at the cost of some lowered offenses (compared to latios).
pursuit is huge as every other post in this thread mentions, and tyranitar is the premier pursuiter of the tier. tyranitar is just a great staple mon for variety of builds, capable of checking things like electrics, birds, the stuff you want to pursuit trap, etc., it has a variety of sets, and it provides sand support which is one of those things that'll pretty much always be great. like pursuit, sand is great, and tyranitar (literally!) fuels that. it's main 3 sets are all amazing: band, scarf, and support (chople berry usually), and it provides a ton of support to some top-tier metagame threats like keldeo and volcanion (with pursuit) and excadrill (with sand). Infernal did a really good job of going into detail on all this stuff, so i suggest you just read her post about this lol.
sorta like with tyranitar, garchomp is one of the key staple mons of the tier, capable of checking a lot of important stuff both offensively and defensively while posing a major threat to teams with offensive sets like SD. yeah, tankchomp has fallen out of favor, and landorus-t is more or less the go-to ground at this point. sorta like with weavile / bisharp, i think lando-t is better than chomp, but not so much better that chomp is down in A rank because of it. also, nowadays i think the two are a bit different from one another; lando-t is more of a glue mon that handles stuff like sand, birds, and zard-x, whereas chomp is better as a more offensive mon. SD + rocks and salac berry + endure / sub + SD are capable of putting holes into a lot of the bulky offense teams we're seeing nowadays, and even with them running lando-t, SD chomp does a great job job of wearing it down quite a bit so something else on your team it had to check has a much easier time now. finally, i really think chomp is a level above everything in A rank except tyranitar and maybe heatran, and while it'd probably be a lower A+ rank mon, i think it fits in nicely.
there are a few other things i want to simply briefly comment on because i don't really have enough experience with them to write a bunch:
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I nominate Gastrodon for B-. Imo I just see it as dead weight in many scenarios. The volcanion hype may be nice but I don't see it do much work in battle. Gastrodon presumingly is meant to check water types because of storm drain but I question what else it can do. Without the storm drain boost, it's pretty weak and passive. And as for playstyles, for bulky offensive playstyle I'd rather use suicune or offensive water types like azumarill or keldeo and for stall I'd use alolomola and quagsire and therefore gastrodon may be less splashable because of the large diversity of water types that may fit the roles better. The electric pokemon hype has died out also with people nominating manetric and raikou to lower ranks. Gastrodon can't even safely switch safely in on thundurus because of grass knot. Amoongus and tangrowth are also starting to bloom in usage. In comparison to the threats in B rank, the sea slug gastrodon knows it's in a sticky situation. *prepares for the hate comments*
If the leaders of the thread made all the changes that you just suggested we are going to be soon back where we were before all the changes were made.B+ -> A-
terrakion has proven to be a really great wallbreaker. like p2 said, rock / fighting coverage + band terrakion's strength makes the thing very annoying to switch into... even for stuff that counters it on paper. it's capable of wearing stuff down really easily, especially on the typical bulky offensive builds that have been featuring terrakion lately. with pivots like rotom-w to bring it in, terrakion is capable of easily punching a hole somewhere in your opponent's team. also, terrakion is definitely a good level above pretty much everything else in B+, and it's more on par with some of the A- rank stuff like mega heracross.
B -> B+
since hoopa-u's departure from the tier, there really haven't been many wallbreakers that are as pressuring as it was. band terrakion and other powerful choiced attackers sorta took its place on bulky offense builds that use slow pivots to make up for shitty speed tiers, but as far as stuff that doesn't need to be choice-locked to punch holes, you're mostly limited to megas like medicham, heracross, gardevoir, etc.. other than kyurem-b, nidoking is one of few non-mega wallbreakers in the tier that has a good amount of consistency. cbb's post highlighted a lot of the pros: good typing, resistances against certain forms of passive damage, and reliability. in addition to that, it's pretty obvious that nidoking has great coverage & power, and it gets to actually switch its moves!!! i don't think nidoking is a "hoopa replacement", but with hoopa gone, nidoking does stand out a bit more, and i definitely think it's on the same level as kyurem-b.
B -> B+
okay i get that everyone wants to be on the "hippowdon sucks" train nowadays, and while it has generally declined, i don't think it should be as low as B rank. while landorus-t and garchomp (even though tankchomp isn't as popular anymore) can fill the role of bulky / defensive ground, they don't totally outrank hippowdon. yes, hippowdon is passive as hell compared to those (and gliscor), but it provides more defensive consistency. hippo is capable of checking things like electrics, and (with a more specially defensive spread) mega diancie and tornadus-t, whereas bulkier lando-t / chomp sets really can't handle them. also, hippo can check both bisharp and zard-x, whereas chomp / lando-t can only check one each (bisharp for chomp, zard-x for lando-t). finally, hippo is just much more reliable in defensively checking stuff in general thanks to slack off lol. so yeah, hippo is super passive, but when you need to check a bunch of stuff on a balance or stall team and chomp / lando-t can't really do the job, hippo can easily. finally, i'm pretty sure hippo is a clear level above things like dragonite, politoed, and quagsire, and it fits in better with stuff like starmie, amoonguss, mew, etc..
B -> B-
i really don't think raikou should drop any further ;~;. yeah raikou isn't really as good as it once was, but it's still a pretty nice electric. the electrics as a whole have seemingly dropped in viability a bit, but that doesn't mean raikou needs to keep on going. it's simply a clear level above things like regular scizor, alomomola, mamoswine, mega garchomp, celebi....there's a recurring theme of A rank's standards (as a whole like A+ / A / A-) that sorta tie in with the next few mons i'm gonna post about. it's pretty clear that the A ranks went through substantial shifts, with things like mega metagross and thundurus-i dropping from A+ to A-, keldeo and torn-t dropping from S to A+, mega sableye, talonflame, and mega lopunny dropping from A+ to A, etc.; however, things seem a bit jumbled up right now. what makes an S rank mon has been cleared up and is acceptable for sure, but A+ seems sorta different now... it went from being totally filled to now having very few mons. most of these mons in A+ are the glue / staple mons that really help to define the tier; whereas the less-defining mons that put a bunch of pressure on the tier have seemed to drop to A. since this hasn't really been cleared up since the revamp, i'm just gonna go with these observations while making / discussing these next few noms :3.
A- -> A
p2 already did a great job of summarizing this already, but to add to it... bisharp is about as good as weavile as an offensive dark; i'd say weavile is a little better, but not a whole rank better. while weavile is faster, equipped with ice / dark coverage, and more focused on immediate power, bisharp is a bit slower & bulkier with more focus on setting up to punch holes. bisharp also carries some neat traits that aren't comparable to anything weavile can do like defiant to pressure defog and a rock resistance meaning it doesn't get worn down like crazy between lorb and rocks (like weavile does). bisharp is capable of really posing a threat to both defensive builds and offensive builds (even though the sucker punch 50/50s are annoying v. offensive stuff it's still a huge threat), and it's a pretty huge pain in the butt to check in the builder.
A- -> A
mega latias is a hugeee deal atm. it's super nice on balanced and bulky offensive builds, it can check a bunch of important stuff like keldeo, electrics, volcanion, grasses, etc., and it has some variety to its sets. support, for example, can run thunder wave, defog, reflect type, refresh, a third attack, etc., and calm mind can go with reflect type or two attacks (with a variety of different attack combinations). there isn't really much to be said that hasn't been said; this thing checks the stuff you want a lati to check as efficiently as possible at the cost of some lowered offenses (compared to latios).
A -> A+
pursuit is huge as every other post in this thread mentions, and tyranitar is the premier pursuiter of the tier. tyranitar is just a great staple mon for variety of builds, capable of checking things like electrics, birds, the stuff you want to pursuit trap, etc., it has a variety of sets, and it provides sand support which is one of those things that'll pretty much always be great. like pursuit, sand is great, and tyranitar (literally!) fuels that. it's main 3 sets are all amazing: band, scarf, and support (chople berry usually), and it provides a ton of support to some top-tier metagame threats like keldeo and volcanion (with pursuit) and excadrill (with sand). Infernal did a really good job of going into detail on all this stuff, so i suggest you just read her post about this lol.
A -> A+
sorta like with tyranitar, garchomp is one of the key staple mons of the tier, capable of checking a lot of important stuff both offensively and defensively while posing a major threat to teams with offensive sets like SD. yeah, tankchomp has fallen out of favor, and landorus-t is more or less the go-to ground at this point. sorta like with weavile / bisharp, i think lando-t is better than chomp, but not so much better that chomp is down in A rank because of it. also, nowadays i think the two are a bit different from one another; lando-t is more of a glue mon that handles stuff like sand, birds, and zard-x, whereas chomp is better as a more offensive mon. SD + rocks and salac berry + endure / sub + SD are capable of putting holes into a lot of the bulky offense teams we're seeing nowadays, and even with them running lando-t, SD chomp does a great job job of wearing it down quite a bit so something else on your team it had to check has a much easier time now. finally, i really think chomp is a level above everything in A rank except tyranitar and maybe heatran, and while it'd probably be a lower A+ rank mon, i think it fits in nicely.there are a few other things i want to simply briefly comment on because i don't really have enough experience with them to write a bunch:
: this is really a question more than anything... why is this A-? i don't really see it on the same level as things like mega metagross, thundurus-i, serperior, jirachi, etc., so it seems kinda odd for it to be there.
: why is this thing ranked at all? i get that hoopa-u got banned, but we have other wallbreakers that "take its place" that are actually good.
: why is this still ranked? there are much better grasses in the tier (mega venu, tang, amoong), and all roserade really has over them is toxic spikes, which isn't really worth it given how bad every other aspect of this thing is compared to those :x.
All you have done is nom things up instead of nomming anything to drop. I agree that bisharp should probably go up but you have to be careful that we don't end up with a bunch of stuff in the same rank again that have different levels of viability.
My own nomination is Rotom-W to A. There really shouldn't be a whole sub rank between Rotom and Thundurus/Bisharp imo. Rotom W is really good (and always has been) , but to say its that much better than those two is a bit of a stretch. It is still worn down quite easily from SR, knock off, u-turn and resisted hits and Pain Split can be played around with low health mons.
It also struggles with calm minding waters since its volt switch won't do much to them. Therefore in order to handle them you need to pack a grass type or something else which can be difficult to find room for when you would hope packing a water electric would be enough (btw this is why i think av raikou sucks). I know these are issues Rotom-W has always had, but I think its enough to keep it from A+ rank.
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I disagree with you on the nomination of rotom-w, then, I think rotom in this metagame is much more annoying and effective Thiundurus, because it succeeds thanks to its coverage water / electric to annoy ground types as Landorus, hippo , that can stop many physical attackers, also this pokemon manages to be very synergistic with pursuit trapper, who like to be put in on Latias or latios and trap them easily; however, it is as fragile as you mentioned some shots, like the thunderbolt Thund for example, but in these cases an expert player would not let me in if you have the counter. Instead of talking about the work he does rotom-w defensively, unable to check much better Mpinsir, Talon than Thund, Excadrill, all pokemon that Thund fails to switch on, to close I think it is a great momentum generator, is a pokemon that opinion mine is one and the best of the moment, that will take care the teams very offensive and defensive support. leave in peace and let's enjoy this beautiful moment for rotom-w, so stays in A+
Mega Altaria B+ -> B
This mon is honestly not good right now. DD sets are straight up ineffective and mixed attacker is a nice lure and all but isnt that powerful - honestly not many reasons to use this over Diancie or Gardevoir which apply way more offensive pressure. The only sets I ever see have success are weird counter team type sets that people don't prep for like Facade Cotton Guard and fat Body Slam stuff. These are still matchup dependent or susceptible to a bunch of offensive threats anyway, Altaria almost has to be gimmicky to be any good. Half the things it checks pressure it to Roost every turn and it doesn't appreciate burns from Keld even if it's Heal Bell since this is just losing turns.
Thinking back I don't know why we kept this in a rank with Mega Mane and Tangrowth or wanted give someone the idea that this mon is more viable than Breloom (which is fine in B) or Nidoking (which should rise).
This mon is honestly not good right now. DD sets are straight up ineffective and mixed attacker is a nice lure and all but isnt that powerful - honestly not many reasons to use this over Diancie or Gardevoir which apply way more offensive pressure. The only sets I ever see have success are weird counter team type sets that people don't prep for like Facade Cotton Guard and fat Body Slam stuff. These are still matchup dependent or susceptible to a bunch of offensive threats anyway, Altaria almost has to be gimmicky to be any good. Half the things it checks pressure it to Roost every turn and it doesn't appreciate burns from Keld even if it's Heal Bell since this is just losing turns.
Thinking back I don't know why we kept this in a rank with Mega Mane and Tangrowth or wanted give someone the idea that this mon is more viable than Breloom (which is fine in B) or Nidoking (which should rise).
Gastrodon was B+ on the old ranking before Volcanion or even Hoopa got released. Gastrodon is one of the gratest bulky waters thanks to is respectable bulky, typing and access to recover. It can be built as full defense investment to handle Keldeo better or mixed which allows to check Kyurem-B and Diancie pretty well (checks lot of stuff, but those usually are the biggest threads it walls). However, as a wall, it's pretty passive and can lose a lot of momentum sometimes. That's why the wall set is considered his second best set.
This is why Gastrodon is B rank
Thundersnail (Gastrodon) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Curse
Gastro is one of the best set-up sweeper for semi-stall builds, and can put a lot of pressure on offensive teams with just 1 curse. Needs support vs grass types and vs latis, but gets paired really well with stuff like Talon or Clefable which handles these mons quite easily. Moonguss and Growth may have gotten more common, but Gastrodon still stands pretty strong in the current meta imo.
Some Calcs which tears apart Swagsire as a curse sweeper
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers
224 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Gastrodon: 162-192 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Terrakion B+ -> A- : Agree.
Terrakion is the definition of what's hitting like a train: his band set can 2HKO every defensive Pokémon in OU depending of their sets, bar only Defensive Landorus-T being his hard-stop, who is still frightened to lose 60% of its HP from Stone Edge if Terrakion stays against it. To give you an idea, I made the calcs of Terrakion's powerful EdgeCombat combo against popular sets:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Tangrowth: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 204-241 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 196-232 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 255-301 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 201-237 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Just look at how strong this beautiful son of a mama is. He wasnt based on Minotaurs for nothing.
Terrakion is a wonderful wallbreaker, who is gaining in popularity due to his ability to frighten the two most popular teams archetypes of the moment, Bulky Offense and Balance, who are both going to have trouble switching against this beast. If you still want to crush balance and stall even more, you are totaly free to run Life Orb with an Adamant nature with Taunt and Terrakion will teach to those defensive mons what punching holes is. If run with a Choice Scarf, Terrakion loses in power but becomes a great revenge killer and a decent check to the 3 best Dark Type in the tier, Weavile, Tyranitar and Bisharp. On a defensive note, even with his decent natural bulkn he is still very frail but is still able to take resisted hits but finds trouble against priority moves, and is weak to all of those. As starry blanket mentionned, bulky pivots like Rotom-W or even M-Scizor work wonderful at bringing Terrakion on the field and living your opponent in a terrible situation. I definitely think that Terrakion deserves a rise, he's just so good right now due to his great speed tier, great immediate power and nearly unresisted coverage. Rise to A-.
Terrakion is the definition of what's hitting like a train: his band set can 2HKO every defensive Pokémon in OU depending of their sets, bar only Defensive Landorus-T being his hard-stop, who is still frightened to lose 60% of its HP from Stone Edge if Terrakion stays against it. To give you an idea, I made the calcs of Terrakion's powerful EdgeCombat combo against popular sets:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Tangrowth: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 204-241 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 196-232 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 255-301 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 201-237 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Just look at how strong this beautiful son of a mama is. He wasnt based on Minotaurs for nothing.
Terrakion is a wonderful wallbreaker, who is gaining in popularity due to his ability to frighten the two most popular teams archetypes of the moment, Bulky Offense and Balance, who are both going to have trouble switching against this beast. If you still want to crush balance and stall even more, you are totaly free to run Life Orb with an Adamant nature with Taunt and Terrakion will teach to those defensive mons what punching holes is. If run with a Choice Scarf, Terrakion loses in power but becomes a great revenge killer and a decent check to the 3 best Dark Type in the tier, Weavile, Tyranitar and Bisharp. On a defensive note, even with his decent natural bulkn he is still very frail but is still able to take resisted hits but finds trouble against priority moves, and is weak to all of those. As starry blanket mentionned, bulky pivots like Rotom-W or even M-Scizor work wonderful at bringing Terrakion on the field and living your opponent in a terrible situation. I definitely think that Terrakion deserves a rise, he's just so good right now due to his great speed tier, great immediate power and nearly unresisted coverage. Rise to A-.
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I agree with what you saying with gastro staying in rank B but I think saying gastro is one of the best set up sweeper for semi stall is a bit of a overstatement considering that semi stall get bulk up talon ,clefable ,crocune ,curse quag, CM mega bro and defensive DD mega alt
my nomination
Dugtrio D TO C-/C
I feel Dugtrio add much more to most teams that its is use on then any other member of D rank it makes numerous good cores with other really high ranked mons although some games it may seem as if Dugtrio does nothing other games when it traps the counter to a certain pokemon it can literally just win you the game it effectively traps lot of pokemon in OU and because of it ability to trap lots of pokemon in ou the addition of volcanion give Dugtrio just one more pokemon to trap providing that steam eruption doesn't burn , there really isn't much to say because dugtrio only really does one thing but it does it well which it trapping thinks that other mons don't like to face and taking them out the game for them but it does that well making it usually is a valuable part of any time it one which allow the team to function better and allows many set up sweeper to do there job once the counter has gone.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Yeah although dugtrio's job is fairly specific its capable of trapping quite a few important mons and as weve seen before in goth meta being able to trap and remove certain threats whenever you want is incredibly valuable support to bring to the table. Although dugtrio is held back by poor stats outside speed, it has what it needs to be effective in removing the targets it does. Its definitely better than a lot of the other shitmons in D rank like mega amphy, whimsicott, and ttrum.
Hi OU. Since this is my first post here on Smogon, I'll go ahead and do a quick introduction of myself for those interested. My name is sh0t & I've been playing competitive 'mons since the middle of ORAS on multiple accounts, but I'm gonna be using my new PS account (sh0t) more often than not from here on out. Feel free to send a challenge my way or just chat w/ me when I'm online, I swear I'm friendly :')
Now, since this is a fairly new thread I figured this would be as good of a time to jump in the discussion as any. I'll start with a couple of C-rankers that stood out to me, followed by the more relevant stuff. Here we go:
C- -> C
With an extremely powerful banded set and the option to run a viable scarf set, Staraptor is a staple on birdspam teams and a viable wallbreaker for any team. Its banded set hits harder than any other bird in OU, including M-Pinsir's ridiculously powerful Return, allowing it to break past things that other birds simply can't. There's really nothing in C- that matches the breaking power of Raptor, which is why it would be more at home in C with mons like Entei, Gatr, and M-Pidg.
C -> C+
Jellicent has always been a good water check/counter, but the release of Volcanion has really allowed it to shine in a way it hasn't before. It has access to great support moves like Will-O-Wisp, which allows it to beat a ton of physical attackers, and it also has access to reliable recovery. Serving as one of the only reliable Volcanion counters, and also easily beating stuff like Keldeo & Starmie, Jellicent is to waters what Zapdos is to birds, which is why it deserves a bump to C+.
A- -> A &
A -> A+
Many others have pointed out pretty much everything I would point out about these two, so I'm not gonna spend too much time here. Bisharp is on the level of Weavile and Tyranitar is just a class above them both thanks to its natural bulk & 3/4 distinct sets. TTar is defining a pursuit-heavy meta, and Bish is just the great cleaner it has always been.
A -> A+
ZardX has a LOT to offer as a mega. We've all probably made a team that we thought was good, just to realize that it gets 6-0ed by this guy at +1, and there's a reason why. It's probably the best setup sweeper in the tier with 130/100 offenses, Tough Claws, a great STAB combination, and access to DD. Defensively, it makes a great check to lots of things that offensively-oriented teams can struggle with, such as fast electrics & darks not named Ttar, thanks to its natural bulk and good typing. It also gets access to SD which allows it to beat up bulky teams in the same way it does offensive teams. ZardX will never not be good, and it's ability to tear multiple playstyles a new one in a way no other mon can warrants it a spot in A+.
A -> A+
Mega Sab is literally the staple that holds together an entire playstyle, and a very good playstyle at that. I don't use it much personally, but every ladder player will run into this thing quite a lot, and like littlelucario said, if you don't have multiple answers to it, it will slowly but surely beat your team down. The fact that an entire playstyle would take a huge hit if this thing wasn't in the tier gives it enough reason to be A+ in my opinion.
Now, since this is a fairly new thread I figured this would be as good of a time to jump in the discussion as any. I'll start with a couple of C-rankers that stood out to me, followed by the more relevant stuff. Here we go:
With an extremely powerful banded set and the option to run a viable scarf set, Staraptor is a staple on birdspam teams and a viable wallbreaker for any team. Its banded set hits harder than any other bird in OU, including M-Pinsir's ridiculously powerful Return, allowing it to break past things that other birds simply can't. There's really nothing in C- that matches the breaking power of Raptor, which is why it would be more at home in C with mons like Entei, Gatr, and M-Pidg.
Jellicent has always been a good water check/counter, but the release of Volcanion has really allowed it to shine in a way it hasn't before. It has access to great support moves like Will-O-Wisp, which allows it to beat a ton of physical attackers, and it also has access to reliable recovery. Serving as one of the only reliable Volcanion counters, and also easily beating stuff like Keldeo & Starmie, Jellicent is to waters what Zapdos is to birds, which is why it deserves a bump to C+.
Many others have pointed out pretty much everything I would point out about these two, so I'm not gonna spend too much time here. Bisharp is on the level of Weavile and Tyranitar is just a class above them both thanks to its natural bulk & 3/4 distinct sets. TTar is defining a pursuit-heavy meta, and Bish is just the great cleaner it has always been.
ZardX has a LOT to offer as a mega. We've all probably made a team that we thought was good, just to realize that it gets 6-0ed by this guy at +1, and there's a reason why. It's probably the best setup sweeper in the tier with 130/100 offenses, Tough Claws, a great STAB combination, and access to DD. Defensively, it makes a great check to lots of things that offensively-oriented teams can struggle with, such as fast electrics & darks not named Ttar, thanks to its natural bulk and good typing. It also gets access to SD which allows it to beat up bulky teams in the same way it does offensive teams. ZardX will never not be good, and it's ability to tear multiple playstyles a new one in a way no other mon can warrants it a spot in A+.
Mega Sab is literally the staple that holds together an entire playstyle, and a very good playstyle at that. I don't use it much personally, but every ladder player will run into this thing quite a lot, and like littlelucario said, if you don't have multiple answers to it, it will slowly but surely beat your team down. The fact that an entire playstyle would take a huge hit if this thing wasn't in the tier gives it enough reason to be A+ in my opinion.
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HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Staraptor is super nukey and struggles to actually consistently check much of anything because of how quickly it gets worn down. Afaik the only reason to use staraptor is if youre running birdspam (which isnt even that good right now). Trying to build around a mon as finnicky as raptor is difficult because its so hardpressed to stay alive long enough to beat specific targets.C- -> C
With an extremely powerful banded set and the option to run a viable scarf set, Staraptor is a staple on birdspam teams and a viable wallbreaker for any team. Its banded set hits harder than any other bird in OU, including M-Pinsir's ridiculously powerful Return, allowing it to break past things that other birds simply can't. There's really nothing in C- that matches the breaking power of Raptor, which is why it would be more at home in C with mons like Entei, Gatr, and M-Pidg.
Sand is better than ever which is not a good thing for zardx. Its very prepared for and zardx struggles to pull of sweeps like it used to. It also really isnt on par with the current A+ megas just because of the direction the metagame is going and we're gonna need a big metagame shift to be the S rank mon it once was.A -> A+
ZardX has a LOT to offer as a mega. We've all probably made a team that we thought was good, just to realize that it gets 6-0ed by this guy at +1, and there's a reason why. It's probably the best setup sweeper in the tier with 130/100 offenses, Tough Claws, a great STAB combination, and access to DD. Defensively, it makes a great check to lots of things that offensively-oriented teams can struggle with, such as fast electrics & darks not named Ttar, thanks to its natural bulk and good typing. It also gets access to SD which allows it to beat up bulky teams in the same way it does offensive teams. ZardX will never not be good, and it's ability to tear multiple playstyles a new one in a way no other mon can warrants it a spot in A+.
Uh sableye itself really isnt that good its the fact that the teams it supports are solid themselves. Sableye struggles to consistently check rockers due to its mediocre HP and the popularity of things like lum sd garchomp and lando. It is easily worn down and forced to constantly recover against a lot of shit. You need to prepare for it but sableye gets put into tough situations quite easily and you can take advantage of that.A -> A+
Mega Sab is literally the staple that holds together an entire playstyle, and a very good playstyle at that. I don't use it much personally, but every ladder player will run into this thing quite a lot, and like littlelucario said, if you don't have multiple answers to it, it will slowly but surely beat your team down. The fact that an entire playstyle would take a huge hit if this thing wasn't in the tier gives it enough reason to be A+ in my opinion.
Yeah I think I can safely say that Sableye and Charizard are not moving up. If you look at the new A+ rank these mons simply do not belong. If you notice we did a mass drop of a bunch of stuff. This isn't to say pokemon can't rise up in ranks but given that we have "more space" to work with now that some of the junk at the bottom is gone, it's easier to identify differences in viability by dropping things down instead of overpopulating high ranks. For example, Talonflame was almost in A- at the start of this thread despite my refusal to budge on it being A+ in the last ranking which was much more bloated.
I want to give my support to Tyranitar to A+. Extremely metagame defining mon with multiple strong sets. Choice Scarf is still a great utility set and the best Pursuit trapper in the tier, Choice Band is one of the deadliest wallbreakers at the moment, with very few switch-ins to its STAB combo outside of Keldeo, and Tyranitar has a decent support set that provides Sand for Excadrill and Stealth Rock for the rest of the team. What's gotten better for it is the Band set which has gained a ton of traction for its ability to tear apart most teams that lack a Rock resist which is a trend (see: Max Attack Diancie and CB Terrakion). Dark resists aren't extremely common either meaning it has a nice STAB combo and the ability to pressure a lot of common walls like Skarmory, Chansey, Clefable, Landorus-T, and of course things like Slowbro. Tyranitar also just synergizes amazingly with a lot of things whether its for its wallbreaking, trapping, or just what it checks due to its typing.
I want to give my support to Tyranitar to A+. Extremely metagame defining mon with multiple strong sets. Choice Scarf is still a great utility set and the best Pursuit trapper in the tier, Choice Band is one of the deadliest wallbreakers at the moment, with very few switch-ins to its STAB combo outside of Keldeo, and Tyranitar has a decent support set that provides Sand for Excadrill and Stealth Rock for the rest of the team. What's gotten better for it is the Band set which has gained a ton of traction for its ability to tear apart most teams that lack a Rock resist which is a trend (see: Max Attack Diancie and CB Terrakion). Dark resists aren't extremely common either meaning it has a nice STAB combo and the ability to pressure a lot of common walls like Skarmory, Chansey, Clefable, Landorus-T, and of course things like Slowbro. Tyranitar also just synergizes amazingly with a lot of things whether its for its wallbreaking, trapping, or just what it checks due to its typing.
Yeah T-tar is A+ rank for sure. That thing is so good right now being able to run a variety of sets and it's just so splashable, as it can do plenty of other things besides just Pursuit trapping.
Mega Altaria is terrible. I agree with bludz it's only good in certain matchups and all of its sets are so prepared for. Clef is just way too good and there are so many things that just straight cock block it all day long. B for sure.
Now here's a controversial nom, but I propose Zard X to be dropped to A-. Looking at the other Megas in A, it just doesn't seem to fit that well, or at least in the current meta. Defensive Lando-T is at an all time high which Zard-X dislikes very much, and with hazards being such a bitch to keep off the field because of ass hazard removers (I fucking hate Defog Latios Roost 3 attacks is so amazing) it's just so easy to pressure Zard-X to prevent it from being able to sweep as easily as it used to. On top of Lando-T, Mega Diancie is so good and it can check Zard-X pretty well even at +1, and then you have other things such as Slowbro, Heatran, Terrakion, T-tar, and Azu is still really good despite people thinking it sucks because of Volcanion. Even with Roost its longevity is pretty limited due to its significant hazard weakness and Flare Blitz recoil. It's still plenty viable, but I think the really dangerous set at the moment that absolutely rips through teams right now is DD 3 attacks with EQ, as it can beat 4 of its main checks with it. While it loses out on the ability to abuse its defensive typing and Flare Blitz recoil is more of a bitch, when used correctly the only thing it really has to worry about is Lando-T which is easy to weaken and bulky Waters, which can be put in D-Claw range. Even still, Zard X struggles quite a bit, in this meta with its common checks/counters being very prevelant, and it's either hard pressed to sweep or very easy to wear down depending on what set it runs. While it's still a very solid Pokemon, I just can't see it being in the same rank as staples such as Heatran, Chomp, Ferro, and even other Megas like Lopunny and Mega Medicham which are much easier to fit on a team and don't require that much support to succeed. Zard X just seems to fit very well with the other megas in A-, which all require a decent amount of support but can be VERY effective and dangerous when used correctly.
Also with Zard X in A- I think Mega Gyarados would fit better in B+, although I think B+ is a good place for it regardless of Zard-X. It's really strong and bulky, but ironically it's hard pressed to sweep because of how fat the meta is becoming, and with the rise in Tangrowth, Amoonguss, and Ferro, it needs multiple boosts to get anything going. On top of that it still has Keldeo to deal with, and it wants to run Sub or Taunt to avoid status but it really can't afford giving up EQ or its STAB moves. Its base form also forces a lot of 50/50s, especially when it comes to set up, which can be big problem for it considering it wants the typing of both and the bulk of Mega Gyarados but it can't, so setting up requires taking extra risks which doesn't usually come with most of the better sweepers in the tier. Good Pokemon, dangerous sweeper, but struggles quite a bit in the current meta, and it fits better with Mega Mane in B+ IMO, who is also a good Pokemon but is just suffering from current meta trends. Mega Alt needs to drop though Mega Gyara is far better than Altaria.
Mega Altaria is terrible. I agree with bludz it's only good in certain matchups and all of its sets are so prepared for. Clef is just way too good and there are so many things that just straight cock block it all day long. B for sure.
Now here's a controversial nom, but I propose Zard X to be dropped to A-. Looking at the other Megas in A, it just doesn't seem to fit that well, or at least in the current meta. Defensive Lando-T is at an all time high which Zard-X dislikes very much, and with hazards being such a bitch to keep off the field because of ass hazard removers (I fucking hate Defog Latios Roost 3 attacks is so amazing) it's just so easy to pressure Zard-X to prevent it from being able to sweep as easily as it used to. On top of Lando-T, Mega Diancie is so good and it can check Zard-X pretty well even at +1, and then you have other things such as Slowbro, Heatran, Terrakion, T-tar, and Azu is still really good despite people thinking it sucks because of Volcanion. Even with Roost its longevity is pretty limited due to its significant hazard weakness and Flare Blitz recoil. It's still plenty viable, but I think the really dangerous set at the moment that absolutely rips through teams right now is DD 3 attacks with EQ, as it can beat 4 of its main checks with it. While it loses out on the ability to abuse its defensive typing and Flare Blitz recoil is more of a bitch, when used correctly the only thing it really has to worry about is Lando-T which is easy to weaken and bulky Waters, which can be put in D-Claw range. Even still, Zard X struggles quite a bit, in this meta with its common checks/counters being very prevelant, and it's either hard pressed to sweep or very easy to wear down depending on what set it runs. While it's still a very solid Pokemon, I just can't see it being in the same rank as staples such as Heatran, Chomp, Ferro, and even other Megas like Lopunny and Mega Medicham which are much easier to fit on a team and don't require that much support to succeed. Zard X just seems to fit very well with the other megas in A-, which all require a decent amount of support but can be VERY effective and dangerous when used correctly.
Also with Zard X in A- I think Mega Gyarados would fit better in B+, although I think B+ is a good place for it regardless of Zard-X. It's really strong and bulky, but ironically it's hard pressed to sweep because of how fat the meta is becoming, and with the rise in Tangrowth, Amoonguss, and Ferro, it needs multiple boosts to get anything going. On top of that it still has Keldeo to deal with, and it wants to run Sub or Taunt to avoid status but it really can't afford giving up EQ or its STAB moves. Its base form also forces a lot of 50/50s, especially when it comes to set up, which can be big problem for it considering it wants the typing of both and the bulk of Mega Gyarados but it can't, so setting up requires taking extra risks which doesn't usually come with most of the better sweepers in the tier. Good Pokemon, dangerous sweeper, but struggles quite a bit in the current meta, and it fits better with Mega Mane in B+ IMO, who is also a good Pokemon but is just suffering from current meta trends. Mega Alt needs to drop though Mega Gyara is far better than Altaria.
Terrakion B+ -> A- (Agree)
I really don't feel like I need to elaborate on this because literally everyone has made the same argument (edge-combat with a choice band 2HKO's a ton of relevant things right now since many teams lack a solid rock resist. A- is a no brainer.
Mew B+ -> B (Disagree)
While several people have been talking about how "Mew should not drop because it is so versatile", I still think that the set that should be talked about is the stall breaker set. This is Mew's best set and it is great at stomaching hits from a large portion of the meta game (most notably hits from mega metacham) as well as providing team support with will-O-Wisp, knock off. Plus with taunt, it shuts down a lot of defensive pokes [for example taunt + psyshock beats clef 1v1 (even if it gets a calm mind under its belt while you switch in) assuming that moonblast doesn't lower your special attack every turn]. While I do think that Mew's defog set is B worthy, I think stall breaker has enough of a niche to be B+.
Nidoking B -> B+ (Agree)
Even though Nidoking has been hyped up very recently because it fills void from hoopa-u's ban as a premier wall-breaker, I think B+ is warranted because its STABs + fire and ice coverage hits so much of the meta super hard. This, combined with Nidokings interesting defensive typing, makes it B+ worthy to me.
The rest I am kind of neutral on but do want to touch upon sylveon and duggy. Currently sylveon is sitting in D rank. To me, I feel like C- is just more fitting for it because things like Staraptor (also C-) nukes things with its stabs but also nukes itself with recoil. Sylveon doesn't kill itself, is better defensively, and isn't weak to rocks. Maybe what I should be arguing for is raptor to drop (despite balance becoming more prevalent) but when I see sylveon, I don't see a D mon. I think it should move up to C-. The same goes for dugtrio. the trapping support that duggy provides is very valuable to a lot of builds and the fact that it is able to just get rid of things like non-balloon tran for certain teams make it worth moving up to C- as well.
I really don't feel like I need to elaborate on this because literally everyone has made the same argument (edge-combat with a choice band 2HKO's a ton of relevant things right now since many teams lack a solid rock resist. A- is a no brainer.
Mew B+ -> B (Disagree)
While several people have been talking about how "Mew should not drop because it is so versatile", I still think that the set that should be talked about is the stall breaker set. This is Mew's best set and it is great at stomaching hits from a large portion of the meta game (most notably hits from mega metacham) as well as providing team support with will-O-Wisp, knock off. Plus with taunt, it shuts down a lot of defensive pokes [for example taunt + psyshock beats clef 1v1 (even if it gets a calm mind under its belt while you switch in) assuming that moonblast doesn't lower your special attack every turn]. While I do think that Mew's defog set is B worthy, I think stall breaker has enough of a niche to be B+.
Nidoking B -> B+ (Agree)
Even though Nidoking has been hyped up very recently because it fills void from hoopa-u's ban as a premier wall-breaker, I think B+ is warranted because its STABs + fire and ice coverage hits so much of the meta super hard. This, combined with Nidokings interesting defensive typing, makes it B+ worthy to me.
The rest I am kind of neutral on but do want to touch upon sylveon and duggy. Currently sylveon is sitting in D rank. To me, I feel like C- is just more fitting for it because things like Staraptor (also C-) nukes things with its stabs but also nukes itself with recoil. Sylveon doesn't kill itself, is better defensively, and isn't weak to rocks. Maybe what I should be arguing for is raptor to drop (despite balance becoming more prevalent) but when I see sylveon, I don't see a D mon. I think it should move up to C-. The same goes for dugtrio. the trapping support that duggy provides is very valuable to a lot of builds and the fact that it is able to just get rid of things like non-balloon tran for certain teams make it worth moving up to C- as well.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
can mandi drop to C+ or C its really bad lol. Its defensive typing is only okay and its not even a solid check to 90% of the things its supposedly a check to. It struggles to maintain any offensive presence outsisde foul play and its super susceptible to passive damage from hazards/status. Its largely outclassed by mega sableye in almost all its roles and especially now that hoopa is dead idk why you would ever use this. If you dont get what i mean like seriously play with this thing for a little bit and you'll see just how finnicky it is. It has bulk but it doesnt have the movepool or typing to take advantage of that.