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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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Disagree with dropping Shaymin-Sky to B. If you look at the B mons they are for the most part outclassed or have severe issues holding them back due to popular trends in the metagame. Palkia is mostly outdone by the Latis bar having better coverage and can't even check Ogre anymore due to getting simply overwhelmed by Primal Kyogre's superior stats; Zekrom suffers from unfortunate dual STABs in a metagame dominated by P-Don and Xerneas (the former of which eats Outrages for lunch despite not resisting); regular Groudon sure has some unique niches but lol have fun not using P-Don, Rachi is pretty bad and as previously stated should be dropped due to simply losing to too many of the common Pokemon (Ekiller, Darkrai, P-Don, P-Ogre, Ho-oh, EQ Mence etc); Khan suffers from massive opportunity cost and for the most part being outdone by Mence, Aegislash is just meh overall for the same reasons as Rachi, and Clef is just a dogshit check to things it wants to check like Xerneas and Darkrai, its horrible stats just don't match up to the overwhelming power of Uber Pokemon imo. I've tried using this thing and its simply overwhelmed by Life Orb Sludge Bomb Rai with eventual, inevitable poison, and crits from Xerneas or SR damage. Sure it can stop Arc forms but even then it can be stalled out and you have Ho-oh or Snatch Blissey for that.

Shaymin-S doesn't really suffer from these glaring issues and is pretty much just better than these mons. You can't just nom it for a drop by stating things everyone knows like being frail and weak to rocks, priority beating it etc. These are the reasons it's not a higher rank in the first place. The mon has already been ranked taking into account these issues so saying them again shouldn't make a case for it to drop further. In general a Pokemon should drop due to metagame changes affecting its performance in a bad or good way, or being horribly wrongly ranked at first. Anyway to counter-argument Random Passerby:

"As stated, this thing can't switch in on anything, ever so you need to give it a free switch-in somehow."

While this is true, Shaymin's ground immunity can force mindgames with the omnipresent ground moves. Besides, Darkrai can't really switch into anything either but it's A+. Again though I feel this is bringing up things that were taken into account when it was originally ranked.

"Even when it comes in, you don't hit that hard even with a Life Orb as 120 SpA is really average for an Uber."

Tbh I think Shaymin's damage output is good enough. Some calcs for example;

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 265-312 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO - gauranteed after a round of LO recoil or SR.

Outspeeding and OHKOing Darkrai is a huge benefit tbh, and the fact that it can OHKO shows that its damage output is actually decent, especially when you consider its chances to flinch (Air) or drop their SpDef to -2 (Seed).

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 246-290 (58.7 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This isn't really set up fodder at all, considering its at range of Ekiller unless significant defense investment, in which case you won't be running this much HP anyway, so Seed Flare is doing more damage. This is also in range of basically everything that picks off Xerneas (Ho-oh, P-Don, Scizor BP, Mega Luke etc etc).

The same applies for things like Ekiller and P-Don (lol Life Orb Earth Power). Mence is the only thing that can potentially set up freely as Shaymin is forced to Air Slash. TL;DR - 120 SpA may be weak, but Life Orb and a very high BP move in Seed Flare (120BP) with no drawbacks bar accuracy, and a huge benefit of 80% to drop Sp.Def negates this.

"Especially when you need to rely on Air Slash (as most Ubers resist Grass so you can't spam Seed Flare)."

Most of the things resisting can't switch into Shaymin anyway. Mence won't like switching into Seed Flare, dropping to -2 and then taking an Air Slash as it just dies.

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 66-78 (17.3 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. -2 200 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 329-387 (86.3 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Klefki fears Earth Power especially when at -2. The Latis, Dialga, Aegislash and the rest are hugely pressured just by being at -2 by switching into a Seed Flare. Ho-oh is for the most part reliable but Shaymin can and has run HP Rock to beat it, which OHKOs at -2.

Basically while Seed Flare is resisted by quite a lot of things, its 80% 100% chance to put them at -2 simply negates the resist and leaves them very vulnerable to a coverage move anyway, or Air Slash flinches which ARE in your favour. Even when they have a Ho-oh for example, Seed Flaring it on switch in is better than Air Slashing it, to simply leave it vulnerable at -2 SpDef, so I'd say Seed Flare is actually really spammable.

Lastly Healing Wish is a stupidly good move.
 
I disagree about Shaymin-Sky dropping to B. It's still a force to be reckoned with possessing good coverage and the ability to take on numerous Arceus-types such as Arceus-Ground, Arceus-Water, and Arceus-Rock. It's a Pokemon that fits great on offense which handles many Pokemon threatening to that playstyle. Alright, so granted it's frail and weak to Stealth Rocks, but it's just so damn effective in this metagame. Thing completely obliterates balance cores, It is by far one of the offensive mons on Spike stack and Spike stacking is one of, if not the best strategies to win a game in this tier at the moment. It's amazing at stealing momentum away from the opponent and is actually somewhat hard to wall. Not to mention that this mon got first blood in UPL 5, which can be found here (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-45650).

Points can be summarized as this:

1) Outspeeds common offensive 'mons such as darkrai, Mega-salamence, Xerneas and numerous Arceus-Types etc..
2) Ability to whittle down "checks" such as Klefki, latias/latios and ho-oh thanks to serene grace.
3) Good offensive typing.
4) Checks a myriad of top-tier pokemon such as Mega-salamence, Primal-Kyogre, darkrai and numerous Arceus-types.
5) Annhilates offense and balance while hazards are up.
6) Access to healing wish.

Having said all this, It doesn't make any sense to drop Shaymin-S when the current metagame is so favorable to it. It's closer to moving up than moving down imo.

 
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Greninja: C+ -> B-

Personally, I feel like Greninja is the best spiker. I use it as my lead in Ubers, and it's consistently great every time. It can fairly easily set up spikes and attack with Hydro Pump back. However, I think it could go to B- because of spikes and its offensive ability. Protean allows Greninja to be very unpredictable. Along with Protean, Greninja also has an extensive moveset that allows for adaptation to the metagame and numerous offensive sets. This combined with its spiking ability is why I think Greninja should be in B-.
 
Greninja to B- yes.
The reasons are Obvious tbf: It outspeeds all Deffogers of the tier and can taunt them, With taunt it's not set up bait for anything and with shadow sneak it becomes Ghost so stops rapid spins. There is no reason not to be above the other T spikers/spikers besides rapid spin maybe which is outclassed by taunt.
 
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just so people don't get wrong impression - its best set has no space for hydro pump, use dual spikes with taunt and sneak. Supporting gren to B - , I've been using it for a while and it does its job well; even if its niche is pretty slim, it's unique enough to make it stand out
 
Kyurem-W needs to be at least a subrank higher than Zekrom for the same reason Iceceus is above Eleceus: Electric/Dragon isn't a good STAB combo right now with Xerneas and P.Don being major threats and it has already been said countless times how good Ice STAB alone is instead. Kyu-W is far and away the best special wallbreaker in the tier and it didn't deserve the drop in the first place. Please fix this whenever possible.
 
i disagree with the former - zekrom has a couple of very significant defensive niches in the current metagame (pdon lure, one-time kyogre switch in, last ditch ekiller check), and the palkia effect of its viability being doubted to the point where teams are not adequately prepared for it (see: jibaku vs evuelf). it's undeniable that kyu-w has few switch ins, but that's assuming it gets in on something in the first place. its niche as a special wallbreaker is the only thing that even comes close to warranting being in the same rank as zekrom, and shouldn't be higher than it.
 
Yeeah,about that greninja nom.I have to disagree.Lemme just make my point.

1. Klefki.Now Klefki has the amazing ability in Prankster allowing him to set up spikes,before gren can taunt him and can proceed on setting spikes before gren and before he can get taunted.Basically Klefki is a better spike stacker and the only thing that gren has it going againts it is that it can set-up tspikes,in spike stacking.

2. Darkrai.Darkrai outspeeds and outclasses gren in some ways.First of all its a faster taunter,secondly he can actually do damage to pokemon,and he can put foes to sleep so he can easily force switchs,unlike greninja,which can only taunt stuff and then shadow sneak them.Wait what if it is a normal type.We all know that arceus normal is the best form ever,in this current metagame.The only 3 things that are on the top of my head,those niches that outclass Darkrai are:setting spikes and tspikes,shadow sneak,and the ability to change typing.But either way that can be countered.It only has 1 viable set,so its really not going to do much in versatility,but you can run offensive protean.

3.Pdon

Pdon is a powerful pokemon,the most powerful in the ubers tier and the second most powerful in the game according to smogon(we all know that mega ray isnt the most powerful,magikarp is so stop selling ray out),and has the ability to take any hits from greninja.What greninja had for it going againts Don,is that he could have actually hit it with its stab water attack,but Pdon is a different story,and he cant do much with any set to Pdon,and Pdon can just wreck him.

4.Priority

Priority is something that always haunts greninja.Faster mons,can easily get damage with priority and he cant do anything about it with its spikes set,other than set-up,it also has to predict whether does the pokemon X carry E-Speed,and proceed to set up,because if it missplays on the prediction,then it leaves the field with only the damage scratched to the pokemon.

5. Megas: with M-gar and M-mence running around,he cant do much other than be a setup bait for the latter afformentioned,thats assuming that it doesnt carry taunt,and gar can easily destroy gren,with it outspeeding and either sludge waving or shadow balling the greninja,or perish songing and leave it to die.


6.Magic Bounce.As you all may know the ability of magic bounce,2 viable mons carry it and those are:M-sableye,M-Diancie.Now gren cant do much to to either of them other than attack,and M-sableye can inflict burn,and M-diancie can EP,and with shadow sneak,then M-Sab is good to go with both of his stabs,to inflict damage.And Gren in just a CM bait for M-Sab and M-Dian.

It has a great ability to set-up spikes but how it fairs with the meta isnt good.
 
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Yugi said:
Yeeah,about that greninja nom.I have to disagree.Lemme just make my point.

1. Klefki.Now Klefki has the amazing ability in Prankster allowing him to set up spikes,before gren can taunt him and can proceed on setting spikes before gren and before he can get taunted.Basically Klefki is a better spike stacker and the only thing that gren has it going againts it is that it can set-up tspikes

2. Darkrai.Darkrai outspeeds and outclasses gren in some ways.First of all its a faster taunter,secondly he can actually do damage to pokemon,and he can put foes to sleep so he can easily force switchs,unlike greninja,which can only taunt stuff and then shadow sneak them.Wait what if it is a normal type.We all know that arceus normal is the best form ever,in this current metagame.The only 3 things that are on the top of my head,those niches that outclass Darkrai are:setting spikes and tspikes,shadow sneak,and the ability to change typing.But either way that can be countered.It only has 1 viable set,so its really not going to do much in versatility,but you can run offensive protean.

3.Pdon

Pdon is a powerful pokemon,the most powerful in the ubers tier and the second most powerful in the game according to smogon(we all know that mega ray isnt the most powerful,magikarp is so stop selling ray out),and has the ability to take any hits from greninja.What greninja had for it going againts Don,is that he could have actually hit it with its stab water attack,but Pdon is a different story,and he cant do much with any set to Pdon,and Pdon can just wreck him.

4.Priority

Priority is something that always haunts greninja.Faster mons,can easily get damage with priority and he cant do anything about it with its spikes set,other than set-up,it also has to predict whether does the pokemon X carry E-Speed,and proceed to set up,because if it missplays on the prediction,then it leaves the field with only the damage scratched to the pokemon.

5. Megas: with M-gar and M-mence running around,he cant do much other than be a setup bait for the latter afformentioned,thats assuming that it doesnt carry taunt,and gar can easily destroy gren,with it outspeeding and either sludge waving or shadow balling the greninja,or perish songing and leave it to die.


6.Magic Bounce.As you all may know the ability of magic bounce,2 viable mons carry it and those are:M-sableye,M-Diancie.Now gren cant do much to to either of them other than attack,and M-sableye can inflict burn,and M-diancie can EP,and with shadow sneak,then M-Sab is good to go with both of his stabs,to inflict damage.And Gren in just a CM bait for M-Sab and M-Dian.

It has a great ability to set-up spikes but how it fairs with the meta isnt good.
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1)Klefki cannot block rapid spin and also does not have access to taunt

2)The argument is not that greninja is better than Darkrai, but that Greninja is the best spike setter in the tier and deserves a higher rank than the other spikers.

3)Greninja gets up 2 sets of spikes on pdon

4)Greninja can block the second espeed with shadow sneak, and will always get up min 1 spike

5)Greninja always carries taunt, and shadow sneak 2hkos Gengar bar terrible rolls.

252 Atk Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 128-152 (48.8 - 58%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

6)Any spike setter loses to Sableye and Forre is the only setter that beats Diancie.

The point of Greninja moving up is not because it is the best poke, but is the best at what it does, better than all the other spike setters in Ubers.
 
Yugi said:
Yeeah,about that greninja nom.I have to disagree.Lemme just make my point.

1. Klefki.Now Klefki has the amazing ability in Prankster allowing him to set up spikes,before gren can taunt him and can proceed on setting spikes before gren and before he can get taunted.Basically Klefki is a better spike stacker and the only thing that gren has it going againts it is that it can set-up tspikes

2. Darkrai.Darkrai outspeeds and outclasses gren in some ways.First of all its a faster taunter,secondly he can actually do damage to pokemon,and he can put foes to sleep so he can easily force switchs,unlike greninja,which can only taunt stuff and then shadow sneak them.Wait what if it is a normal type.We all know that arceus normal is the best form ever,in this current metagame.The only 3 things that are on the top of my head,those niches that outclass Darkrai are:setting spikes and tspikes,shadow sneak,and the ability to change typing.But either way that can be countered.It only has 1 viable set,so its really not going to do much in versatility,but you can run offensive protean.

3.Pdon

Pdon is a powerful pokemon,the most powerful in the ubers tier and the second most powerful in the game according to smogon(we all know that mega ray isnt the most powerful,magikarp is so stop selling ray out),and has the ability to take any hits from greninja.What greninja had for it going againts Don,is that he could have actually hit it with its stab water attack,but Pdon is a different story,and he cant do much with any set to Pdon,and Pdon can just wreck him.

4.Priority

Priority is something that always haunts greninja.Faster mons,can easily get damage with priority and he cant do anything about it with its spikes set,other than set-up,it also has to predict whether does the pokemon X carry E-Speed,and proceed to set up,because if it missplays on the prediction,then it leaves the field with only the damage scratched to the pokemon.

5. Megas: with M-gar and M-mence running around,he cant do much other than be a setup bait for the latter afformentioned,thats assuming that it doesnt carry taunt,and gar can easily destroy gren,with it outspeeding and either sludge waving or shadow balling the greninja,or perish songing and leave it to die.


6.Magic Bounce.As you all may know the ability of magic bounce,2 viable mons carry it and those are:M-sableye,M-Diancie.Now gren cant do much to to either of them other than attack,and M-sableye can inflict burn,and M-diancie can EP,and with shadow sneak,then M-Sab is good to go with both of his stabs,to inflict damage.And Gren in just a CM bait for M-Sab and M-Dian.

It has a great ability to set-up spikes but how it fairs with the meta isnt good.
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What you sayin is irrelevant to the situation. If someone nominated Greninja to be moved to A+ then you can argue the way you did. Klefki is in A- we aint comparing at all we just saying its better than other Tspikes and that's it.
 
Also i told the darkrai and Pdon thing just to tell you guys how it fairs off with the no.1 tier threat,and in the current meta,because like 40% use it in every single team
 
Jirachi = B-: I agree with dropping jirachi to B-. Sure, it can deal with xerneas till some extent and has reliable recovery. I mean, it has a minuscule niche of fitting onto stall/defensive teams, but then you realize that "stall really doesn't exist"(not a dominant playstyle anymore). While I'm not saying it's bad or anything, it's usefulness and usage has really declined. Bulky offense (or balance) is really the way to go. Secondly, With Pokemon such as Primal-Groudon, Mega-Salamence, Mega-Gengar, Darkrai, Ho-oh, Primal-Kyogre and numerous Arceus-Types (Normal, Ground, ghost and dark), roaming free, making Jirachi more often a liability than not. Thirdly, Jirachi has a terrible matchup against... well... pretty much over 95% of the Looking at S to A+ to A ranks, Jirachi really only "checks" Xerneas. There's really not much Jirachi can actually do in this metagame, especially when it is beaten by so many Pokemon, and as I said earlier, it's more often a liability than not. Lastly, Jirachi mandates a lot of team support. Because of its substantial amount of weaknesses, there must be a lot of team support required to help Jirachi function.

Having said all this, I support jirachi's drop to B-.
 
Absolutely and completely disagree with dropping Jirachi. I might be slightly biased because a lot of my teams just happen to benefit from it, but regardless:

Astounded said:
it has a minuscule niche of fitting onto stall/defensive teams
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I'm assuming you're talking about Wish Passing, but that isn't even close to Jirachi's best set in this meta. Jirachi should be running full HP/full SpD + a tiny amount of speed, with Stealth Rock, U-turn, Thunder Wave and Iron Head. It is an absolute full-stop to Lati@s, Xerneas, Mewtwo-Y (seeing as most lack Fire Blast nowadays), Lugia, Clefable, etc. etc. I suppose a choice scarf set with Healing Wish COULD be made to work, but it's really an inferior Skymin at that point.

Astounded said:
Secondly, With Pokemon such as Primal-Groudon, Mega-Salamence, Mega-Gengar, Darkrai, Ho-oh, Primal-Kyogre and numerous Arceus-Types (Normal, Ground, ghost and dark), roaming free, making Jirachi more often a liability than not.
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U-turn. I'll just address your entire rest of the post with this one. It cannot be understated how incredible of a move U-turn is for Jirachi. It can U-turn out on the myriad of slower mons (PDon, POgre, Ho-Oh, defensive Xern/Yveltal, most stall mons, etc, etc) or on mons that you know it's going to force out (such as those mentioned in my first reply), easing predictions massively and opening an opportunity to go to a Shadow Tagger such as Wobbufett or Mega Gengar or a mon like Ho-Oh and proceed to wreck shit. If the opposing team is Stealth Rock weak, then it comes down to individual circumstance. On that note, people probably think it's a lot harder for Jirachi than it actually is to get up SR. Not only does it beat Mega Diancie, but it comes in on all kinds of Steel/Fairy/Psychic/Dragon types and gets up hazards with ease.

Mega Salamence, out of the bunch you mentioned, is the one I most disagree with. It's fair to say that Jirachi has a weakness to a couple of relatively common mons, but a Salamence is not going to set up on a Jirachi unless it feels lucky as fuck. Assuming that Jirachi's player brought a half competent team, it makes dealing with it much easier than if it were to come in on other common SR setters such as PDon, Lando-T, etc. (I realize 90% of PDon teams carry some means of status'ing or twave'ing it, but it still comes in with impudence.)

Lastly, Jirachi is without a doubt on the same tier of the mons it's currently slotted in with, and infinitely better than the ones below it. Jirachi is absolutely comparable to regular Groudon, Aegislash, Clefable, etc - it fits a rather particular niche, but fulfills said niche spectacularly. Whereas, looking below, you see a plethora of outclassed mons + mega metagross. It's obvious which category Jirachi better fits into.

now that i mention it tho, metagross should really be in B. pursuit trapping, pdon lure, stealth rocks, bullet punch takes out xern like a hot knife through butter, high bulk, can even get away with power up punch + thunderpunch if you're feeling mexican (ty edgar rofl).

tl;dr - jirachi stays b, metagross moves up to b. :]
 
Krauersaut It's so fucking difficult to build with Jirachi on a team because it overlaps with other mons and because it checks very few pokemons relative to a pokemon slot on a gen 6. If I find it fucking difficult to build with it I'm sure people wont find it easy. I agree with astounded on what he said. Jirachi to B-.
 
Lord Outrage said:
Krauersaut It's so fucking difficult to build with Jirachi on a team because it overlaps with other mons and because it checks very few pokemons relative to a pokemon slot on a gen 6. If I find it fucking difficult to build with it I'm sure people wont find it easy. I agree on astounded on what he said. Jirachi to B-.
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jirachi fits well with
  • dd Pdon (alternative stealth rock setter, more reliable xerneas check, beats lati@s)
  • wobbmence (offensive pivot, rocks)
  • kyogre, mewtwo, groundceus, (shits on lati@s)
it's great for when you need a rocker that isn't pdon or dialga, and i've built several teams in which that is the case. i understand where you and outrage are coming from, but as the case always is in ORAS, jirachi is another mon heavily influenced by matchup - but that goes back to the point i made in my first post, as all the other pokemon currently in B share the same dillemma.
 
Oml why is Palkia B. I think the last time I saw a Palkia in an official tour was in xy. Both it's stabs are walled by primal groudon and xerneas both in S. primal weather killed it forever because it can no longer spam strong hits and there is a mon who is immune to its strongest hits used on 70% of the teams. It's weak to stall and it does nothing against HO. Palkia--->C+
 
Lord Outrage said:
Oml why is Palkia B. I think the last time I saw a Palkia in an official tour was in xy. Both it's stabs are walled by primal groudon and xerneas both in S. primal weather killed it forever because it can no longer spam strong hits and there is a mon who is immune to its strongest hits used on 70% of the teams. It's weak to stall and it does nothing against HO. Palkia--->C+
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modest lustrous orb palkia 2hko's pdon with spacial rend and beats xerneas with either hydro pump or thunder wave. it switches in on kyogre with impunity, and although it may not hit quite hard as kyu-w, they both deal monstrous damage when given the opportunity, and kyu-w is b. i suppose b might be a LITTLE high for palkia.... but it's better than c. b-?

you may have noticed i like to defend "shitmons", but they tend to not really be all that shit. e.e
 
The thing I find weird is that why is Palkia B and kyurem-W B-? Why are they both not on the same page? Agreed that Kyurem-W has an annoying SR weakness, it lacks bulk and its extremely difficult to make a team with it but at least it can spam Specs boosted Ice beam. On the other hand, Palkia can't even spam its STAB with ease due to the Primal-Groudon + Fairy combo in every team. I haven't seen both of these mons in tour matches or in serious teams, so probably there is something wrong with both of them.

I agree with Outrage that Palkia should drop from its current rank to C+. Also agreeing with both Astounded and Outrage that Jirachi should also drop to B- due to reasons mentioned above.
 
have mercy on palkia!!!

Anyways... from what I've seen and used of this thing so far, I'm just gonna say that Palkia is to be frank a really weird mon in this metagame. The big thing that I think really hurts it right now is that it has no defensive niche in the tier. It can't check Primal Kyogre because that thing's ridiculous stats overwhelm it really badly, and P-Don kind of invalidates any defensive set afaik. Regular Kyogre has become utterly irrelevant in this tier so it doesn't have that niche anymore...so I guess the one thing it can do is use its offensive capabilities with Lustrous Orb. I guess Level 56 is right that the P-Don+Fairy combo is really not good for it, but its coverage otherwise is pretty good and it hits decently hard, and I like T-Wave on it as extra utility. I don't really care where it goes, but ideally I guess it's either B- or C+...it should be in the same rank as White Kyurem to be quite honest. They're both really hard to fit onto a team as neither of them have a defensive niche in this meta and they both have decent offensive prowess, but inhibit defensive synergy. I guess I wouldn't put it too far down below Zekrom either...

Whatever we do, pls don't drop this thing as low as D lol...putting this thing below Giratina-A and Regular Kyogre would be absolutely silly...Palkia is mediocre, but it doesn't suck as much as those two do lol.
 
Palkia B -> B-
I agree with ScraftyIsTheBest that Palkia should have the same rank as Kyurem-W.
Kyurem-W got more power then Palkia and also access to Turboblaze to boop Multiscale and other abilitys but the thing about Palkia is that it can switch slightly better in due to the fact that its not really weak to SR. The movepool from Palkia is also okay. You can do damage to a certain point but the problem about both of them is that they can't switch-in easily unless you face Stall. If you wanna use a P-Ogre Check just go with Lati-Twins since they also have access to roost. To be honest Palkia should even move to C+ since it does literally nothing in this meta and is outclassed by other pokemon.
 
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