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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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Can we please stop emphatizing defensive type synergy in a tier where it was thrown out of the window the instant Primals and MegaMence became a thing? Ubers is all about offensive pressuring and speedcreeping right now and only a fool would rely on resistances to check the current offensive threats instead of sheer power and/or bulk. This is why stall is almost unviable, Lugia is the #1 wall (despite its horrid defensive type), Groundceus is the #1 PDon check despite not resisting its STABs, steel types such as Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn are no longer good blanket checks to most of the metagame and so on. The fact Arceus-Ice is considered a better Mega Mence check than Arceus-Electric speaks volumes of how meaningless resistances are when you're weak to even one coverage move in a tier where 150+ offensive stats are the norm.
Been said that, dropping the likes of Kyurem-W and Palkia because they don't offer meaningful defensive synergy is nonsense. They're not meant to take hits, they're meant to nuke the hell out of the opposing team with their high-powered STABs and coverage. Palkia has a better speed tier, movepool and it's not weak to rocks making it better against offensive threats, while Kyu-W has more power, a great ability and better STABs, making it the better wallbreaker of the two. Neither of them deserves to drop anywhere close to the C ranks and once again I suggest to move them higher, at least no lower than B+.

On a related note, Aegislash needs to drop. What does it do besides checking Xerneas? And why would one need Aegislash for that role when P.Don exists? It's typing isn't good at all in ubers since it's weak to both of P.Don's STABs (and by extension, weak to the one type P.Don is, which is everywhere in ubers), dark, ghost and doesn't resist water and electric. Pretty much everything in the S- and A- ranks use these types as either STAB or coverage. On top of that KS is an extremely risky move in ubers since contact moves are less common than OU and giving the opponent a single turn to set up can spell disaster. It is certainly not on the same level as regular Groudon, hell it's not even as good as a lot of stuff in B-. C+ or even C is where Aegi should be.
 
QueenOfHax said:
Been said that, dropping the likes of Kyurem-W and Palkia because they don't offer meaningful defensive synergy is nonsense. They're not meant to take hits, they're meant to nuke the hell out of the opposing team with their high-powered STABs and coverage. Palkia has a better speed tier, movepool and it's not weak to rocks making it better against offensive threats, while Kyu-W has more power, a great ability and better STABs, making it the better wallbreaker of the two. Neither of them deserves to drop anywhere close to the C ranks and once again I suggest to move them higher, at least no lower than B+.
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So you basically want to sac a pokemon every time you wanna nuke or what? How exactly do u even plan to come in? Did you ever consider that? Well I agree that Aegislash should be dropped tho.
 
QueenOfHax said:
Can we please stop emphatizing defensive type synergy in a tier where it was thrown out of the window the instant Primals and MegaMence became a thing? Ubers is all about offensive pressuring and speedcreeping right now and only a fool would rely on resistances to check the current offensive threats instead of sheer power and/or bulk. This is why stall is almost unviable, Lugia is the #1 wall (despite its horrid defensive type), Groundceus is the #1 PDon check despite not resisting its STABs, steel types such as Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn are no longer good blanket checks to most of the metagame and so on. The fact Arceus-Ice is considered a better Mega Mence check than Arceus-Electric speaks volumes of how meaningless resistances are when you're weak to even one coverage move in a tier where 150+ offensive stats are the norm.
Been said that, dropping the likes of Kyurem-W and Palkia because they don't offer meaningful defensive synergy is nonsense. They're not meant to take hits, they're meant to nuke the hell out of the opposing team with their high-powered STABs and coverage. Palkia has a better speed tier, movepool and it's not weak to rocks making it better against offensive threats, while Kyu-W has more power, a great ability and better STABs, making it the better wallbreaker of the two. Neither of them deserves to drop anywhere close to the C ranks and once again I suggest to move them higher, at least no lower than B+.

On a related note, Aegislash needs to drop. What does it do besides checking Xerneas? And why would one need Aegislash for that role when P.Don exists? It's typing isn't good at all in ubers since it's weak to both of P.Don's STABs (and by extension, weak to the one type P.Don is, which is everywhere in ubers), dark, ghost and doesn't resist water and electric. Pretty much everything in the S- and A- ranks use these types as either STAB or coverage. On top of that KS is an extremely risky move in ubers since contact moves are less common than OU and giving the opponent a single turn to set up can spell disaster. It is certainly not on the same level as regular Groudon, hell it's not even as good as a lot of stuff in B-. C+ or even C is where Aegi should be.
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you are REALLY not getting the point I think. this may come because you have a different building philosphy than most other users, but anyone remotely decent is going to tell you that, yes, defensive synergy, even in oras, is the most important aspect of building. defensive synergy can be pretty simple: dakrai is an arceus ghost check. it's an offensive powerhouse too, but it's an arceus ghost check as well. it's generally a bad idea to run a team without a check to arceus ghost, so you can use dakrai to make your team better. because if you don't run a check to things like ekiller/pdon/etc, your team sucks and will always lose. now you might say "but of course I run checks to those things! duh", but if you do then how can you argue ANYTHING for shitters like kyu-w? kyu-w doesnt do anything for your team. it doesnt switch in on anything is the main reason. it may have a lot (A LOT) of offensive potential, but that doesnt matter because you can only, in most situations, use its prowess when another of your mons went down. and then kyu-w is pretty easy to check. and then you go out into the mon that checks/switches in to the mon that they used to check kyu-w (there are PLENTY of kyu-w checks on every team fyi). oh wait, you do not HAVE said defensive answers because your teams SUCKS because you wasted a slot on kyu-w. this is where I say "show me a team", because as a result of using kyu-w you now only have 5 mons to make a viable team that includes checks to all relevant mons. I build really offensive offences too (note: not deo-s teams those are silly!) so just like anyone else I get that it's possible to be weak to a certain mon as long as you give it little opportunity to set up, not every team is a balance team after all (especially in oras). you can justify weaknesses for sure (see: every team ever) and still have a very good team, but with kyu-w this isnt possible. your team will be bad because you are wasting a slot on kyu-w. it doesnt do anything for your team. nothing. and even on those suuuper offensive teams, even on those, something like ekiller has defensive presence. salamence does too, pdon wobb dakrai yveltal latios skymin etc etc ALL do at least SOMETHING that helps vs common threats. this is the way you can use them in play at all, and not be stuck with "gee, this poke kills every single one of his mons, if only I could bring it in sometime!".

builds with kyurem-w are not viable. kyurem-w is not viable. show a viable, this means good, team with it and I'll discuss it more.

aegis to b- for sure; it's outclassed by jirachi. oh and hopefully I'll get around to a post defending jirachi in b mid because thats were it belongs for sure. it's very usable in practice actually, there is no other xern+lati check that also gets rocks. oh and u-turn which is HUGE because you can gain sick momentum with it. as long as you dont use kyogre with it you can quite easily rely on nuke-mons to outpressure your opponent. healing wish is strong as shit btw, scarf is a cool set (and not a worse skymin! worse, but not a worse skymin). oh and you can also not run rocks on it, but remember how you always want to run a pdon that isnt the rocks set because non-rocks pdon sets are GOOD but cant fit them in practice because little other viable rockers? jirachi is one of them. now dgmw I'm not saying jirachi is fantastic because it's far from that, but b- and below is full of shitty mons that rely on relative ranking, and youre not going to get away with telling me that jirachi is on genesect and blaziken level. it's far too useful for that. also mega metagross needs to drop, that mon is shitty =/ also I disagree with the comments about greninja from earlier, because cloyster does just as good of a job not getting hazards defogged away, and actually does better vs ekiller and stuff because with greninja you likely have to face a +2 ekiller from the start, unless you taunt, so voila a 50/50. cloyster actually gets a tspike and gets rid of ekiller (with a not bad spread) so thats one thing. oh and it offers some immediate pressure which is nice, and does much much better vs deo-s leads which is nice. the thing that greninja does better is getting hazards up on arceus water... which is a lame argument but one you can make I guess. also not that a lot of teams will not carry things to properly anti-lead, so with cloyster you can smash first and then set a tspike, or just kill a mon if thats more beneficial than settings tspikes, which does happen every now and then. I think cloyster is better tbh, and I dont agree with these 4 mons being in c+. okay scolipede and I guess forre I can see, but I ninja and cloyster in b- would be better imo as those two are indubitably better than the other two. just look at how they do in practice, it's not that hard to see why they're better.

messy post btw, oops
 
Hi

Before Outrage completely flames people, I would just like to say that defensive synergy is still very big in this metagame if not bigger than it was in XY due to the likes of Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence. There are not many ways to create good defensive synergy, but we must use what we have in order to do so. Its not a nice ruleset to play by, but I like the challenge, personally. Saying defensive synergy has no place is not a very good way to think about the tier because if you have none, Kyogre, Xerneas, Mence, E-killer, or Groudon will just flat out run you over. Groudon, Lugia, Kyogre, Mence, Arceus-Water, Arceus-Rock, Tyranitar (even excadrill to an extent), Skarmory, Ho-Oh, Blissey, and many more all contribute to defensive synergy in some fashion; even the offensive mons (which is why pDon is S+ and Salamence is S). Offensive synergy for pressure is also very good too, and, thankfully, both it and defensive synergy come in the same package if you know what you're looking for. I do have something to say about Palkia and Kyurem, but I want this to go up first due to the volatile reactions QueenOfHax might get from their post. I will edit in my thoughts on the two.

Said Edit:

Palkia: Anyone who experienced the switch from BW to B2W2 knows how much Latias and Latios regaining the Soul Dew hurt its viability, but this time, the Soul Dew came back, Primal Groudon came along, Kyogre is no longer checked by it because of Blue Orb and its Primal Form, there is no more rain to spam super powerful Hydro Pumps, Fairy-types block Spacial Rend- its all around just an extremely bad time for Palkia. It has trouble providing offensive pressure, or defensive utility. It is unviable outside of a possible Trick Room niche which i have been working on for months but have had no success with it. I agree with Hack, D is probably the best place for it.

Kyurem-W: STAB Ice Beam is this thing's only redeeming factor, and its walled by Primal Kyogre if it doesn't use Draco Meteor. It can be used as a Water resisting pivot for Primal Groudon, but, because it can't touch Kyogre after a CM, Kyogre can always double CM on the pivot unlike if you use a Latias or Latios who can threaten Kyogre with Psyshock even if it has a CM up. On an offensive team, it has a bunch of trouble applying pressure to Defog Arceus-Water since you want to spam Ice Beam, but you can't without letting Defog happen. Draco Meteor has the same problem, if your opponent sacs, its a Defog for you opponent with Arceus-Water. Its abilities are only really appreciated most on balance, where you want Latios or Latias instead because of the Kyogre problem I mentioned earlier. Life Orb would be nice if Draco Meteor was stronger or Kyurem didn't have to run a Timid nature in order to outspeed standard Arceus-Water, but because of these two factors, it cannot effectively break an Arceus-Water for offensive synergy purposes. I know there are teams that don't use a Water-type, but with its massive match up factor, i would much rather be using a Latios or Latias on balance or another breaker (one that doesn't give your opponent a turn to use Defog) for Mence and Don who already break for themselves.
 
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In response to the whole "Palkia is bad but not that bad" posts, can someone please give an example of an ORAS build where Palkia is actually justified outside of building around it for the sake of trying to use it. I don't watch every tour match, but I don't remember ever seeing Palkia used in SPL and in UPL the times it was used it failed to stop P Ogre or just didn't really contribute anything to the match that another mon couldn't have done. I think the previous teambuilding competition sort of demonstrated that choosing to build with Palkia is choosing to build with a handicap. If this mon doesn't actually provide a unique and justified, albeit narrow niche like other C mons such as spikers, Aero, and even Arc-Fighting why shouldn't it be D? If it's a matter of "mon X is just as bad as Palkia and is in rank whatever" then that should move down as well.
 
WreckDra said:
Kyurem-W: STAB Ice Beam is this thing's only redeeming factor, and its walled by Primal Kyogre if it doesn't use Draco Meteor. It can be used as a Water resisting pivot for Primal Groudon, but, because it can't touch Kyogre after a CM, Kyogre can always double CM on the pivot unlike if you use a Latias or Latios who can threaten Kyogre with Psyshock even if it has a CM up. On an offensive team, it has a bunch of trouble applying pressure to Defog Arceus-Water since you want to spam Ice Beam, but you can't without letting Defog happen. Draco Meteor has the same problem, if your opponent sacs, its a Defog for you opponent with Arceus-Water. Its abilities are only really appreciated most on balance, where you want Latios or Latias instead because of the Kyogre problem I mentioned earlier. Life Orb would be nice if Draco Meteor was stronger or Kyurem didn't have to run a Timid nature in order to outspeed standard Arceus-Water, but because of these two factors, it cannot effectively break an Arceus-Water for offensive synergy purposes. I know there are teams that don't use a Water-type, but with its massive match up factor, i would much rather be using a Latios or Latias on balance or another breaker (one that doesn't give your opponent a turn to use Defog) for Mence and Don who already break for themselves.
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You mention both Primal Kyogre and Arceus-Water, but if you're using Kyurem-W then you're likely pairing it with Primal Groudon (and for good reason, since they have excellent synergy together, being able to beat each other's checks) and being paired with the king of ubers is never a bad thing. Considering that several top tier threats *require* to be paired with something to function (Ho-oh/Defogger, Xerneas/steel type and PDon check, Lugia/Mega Gengar check and so on) this shouldn't even count as a con.
Anyway neither of them is an issue P.Ogre is never getting past the duo even with the CM set, at best it's doing about 50% to P.Don with Ice Beam before it's KO'd. Waterceus is only found on stall because it's a worse momentum killer than Lugia and Bissey since it can't even run its STAB anymore and has to settle for the pathetically weak non-STAB Ice Beam (Recover and Toxic are absolutely mandatory and the last move is usually Defog), so it ends up becoming bait for stuff like Mega Gengar (another great partner for Kyu-W), Ferrothorn, Ho-oh, steel types and pretty much anything with Sub that isn't weak to Ice.

Latios isn't really comparable to Kyu-W since it has its own share of issues like being complete Tyranitar bait (uncommon but still relevant), being always revenge killed by Darkrai (who loses to Scarf Kyu-W if you opt for that), not being able to touch Klefki (sure it can Defog the Spikes but it's getting Toxic/Paralyzed in return and once that happens Latios is completely useless), outright losing to Yveltal (especially Sucker Punch variants) and, most importantly, both of its STABs have common immunities in dark and fairy. What is Latios going to do if the opponent has both Yveltal and Xerneas? Cross your fingers and pray for a lucky 50/50? Kyu-W just clicks Ice Beam and outright KO's the former while doing over 60% to the latter, so that isn't just a "redeeming factor", it's a hell of a weapon Kyu-W has against almost the entire tier.

It seems that the viability ranking here seems to disproportionately favor the mons under S- and A- ranks while everything below that is being judged too harshly, even though they might share the same flaws as the former ones. You can't tell me that Kyu-W deserves to be dropped in the C ranks because it offers no defensive synergy when we have the likes of Mewtwo and Deoxys in the A ranks. You can't tell me Palkia needs to be placed as low as D because it has issues with both primals when we have Arceus-Rock in A- and fucking Ferrothorn (who is actually setup bait for Sub/Scald P.Ogre, another reason why resistances are overrated as hell) in B.
And finally, tours don't dictate the viability of a pokemon more than the ladder does. Tours are all about counterteaming and you see all sorts of unorthodox sets that just don't work on the ladder. I'd say that being able to perform well against most of the tier against a large playerbase is more meaningful than highly specialized rock/paper/scissors scenarios against a handful of players, no matter how good they are.
 
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I don't understand why you keep saying that Kyurem-W is great. It struggles vs offensive teams and it doesn't have the ability to break stall teams, the only style it does well is against balance, meaning it heavily relies on match-up. It requires too much support and it doesn't offer much to the team (not gonna go in explanation since many users have already explained this point). The most annoying thing about Kyurem-W is that it has a weakness to SR which means it can't even come in that much and all its gonna do is put serious pressure on the defogger on its team.

QueenOfHax said:
Waterceus is only found on stall because it's a worse momentum killer than Lugia and Bissey since it can't even run its STAB anymore and has to settle for the pathetically weak non-STAB Ice Beam (Recover and Toxic are absolutely mandatory and the last move is usually Defog), so it ends up becoming bait for stuff like Mega Gengar (another great partner for Kyu-W)
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This point shows that your knowledge about the current metagame isn't so great. On 95% percent stall teams, one can see the great combo of Waterceus + Lugia. Now i don't know why you say 'Waterceus has to settle for the pathetically weak non-STAB Ice Beam'. I actually lol'd quite hard at this because now, 80% of Waterceus always run Judgment because people have figured that there is no need to run Ice beam on Waterceus, because Ice beam is to kill Mence and Ray and Lugia can check them both easily. Judgment is much better than ice beam because otherwise, Ho-oh can annoy stall teams.

QueenOfHax said:
Latios isn't really comparable to Kyu-W since it has its own share of issues like being complete Tyranitar bait (uncommon but still relevant), being always revenge killed by Darkrai (who loses to Scarf Kyu-W if you opt for that), not being able to touch Klefki (sure it can Defog the Spikes but it's getting Toxic/Paralyzed in return and once that happens Latios is completely useless), outright losing to Yveltal (especially Sucker Punch variants) and, most importantly, both of its STABs have common immunities in dark and fairy. What is Latios going to do if the opponent has both Yveltal and Xerneas? Cross your fingers and pray for a lucky 50/50? Kyu-W just clicks Ice Beam and outright KO's the former while doing over 60% to the latter, so that isn't just a "redeeming factor", it's a hell of a weapon Kyu-W has against almost the entire tier.
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'Latios complete tyranitar bait':(252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 282-334 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). 'being always revenge killed by Darkrai', Latios can switch out you know and also (252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 187-221 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), where as Draco Meteor OHKO's Darkrai. You said that Darkrai loses to Scarf Kyurem-W, that is true but if you are gonna use such a WEAK thing like Scarf Kyurem-W in the current metagame, then there is something wrong with you. Also 'What is Latios going to do if the opponent has both Yveltal and Xerneas?', i can say the same about Kyurem-W, what does Kyurem-W do when the opposing team has a Klefki + Waterceus? I'll hear the answer to this from you.

If you really think Kyurem-W is that GREAT, why not participate in a tournament sometime and win it by using Kyurem-W. You'll notice yourself by playing in some tournaments that how bad Kyurem-W is in the current metagame. Also 'Tours are all about counterteaming', let me make this clear to you. In tournaments, players can't get cteamed unless they are gonna use the same team in every round.
 
I believe this would be the appropriate time for the thread's moderator to ask QueenOfHax whether he would like a Burn Heal. In all seriousness though I agree with everything Level 56 said; various problems have been rendering awesome Choice Scarf users from past generations to be unviable (Genesect and Steel type nerf, Kyogre and need to hold Blue Orb, Zekrom and introduction of Fairy type). The increase in the mean bulk of all viable Pokémon in the current metagame (Primals, tendency for Ho-Oh to run special bulk to live a +2 GeoXern), coupled with the nerfing of Kyurem's main weapons, essentially warrant Choice Scarf users to be unviable holistically. If someone could name one good Choice Scarf user in ORAS Ubers I willbe impressed because I have not seen one. Other than that, yeah, all points made in an attempt to justify the strength of Kyurem-White have been brought to is knees by the 56th level of the universe get rekt gg wp nr.
 
ScraftyIsTheBest said:
have mercy on palkia!!!

Anyways... from what I've seen and used of this thing so far, I'm just gonna say that Palkia is to be frank a really weird mon in this metagame. The big thing that I think really hurts it right now is that it has no defensive niche in the tier. It can't check Primal Kyogre because that thing's ridiculous stats overwhelm it really badly, and P-Don kind of invalidates any defensive set afaik. Regular Kyogre has become utterly irrelevant in this tier so it doesn't have that niche anymore...so I guess the one thing it can do is use its offensive capabilities with Lustrous Orb. I guess Level 56 is right that the P-Don+Fairy combo is really not good for it, but its coverage otherwise is pretty good and it hits decently hard, and I like T-Wave on it as extra utility. I don't really care where it goes, but ideally I guess it's either B- or C+...it should be in the same rank as White Kyurem to be quite honest. They're both really hard to fit onto a team as neither of them have a defensive niche in this meta and they both have decent offensive prowess, but inhibit defensive synergy. I guess I wouldn't put it too far down below Zekrom either...

Whatever we do, pls don't drop this thing as low as D lol...putting this thing below Giratina-A and Regular Kyogre would be absolutely silly...Palkia is mediocre, but it doesn't suck as much as those two do lol.
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regarding palkia compared to zekrom:

Zekrom actually has a much bigger niche than many people seem to see in this meta. It's not a great mon but saying it's Palkia level is absolute blasphemy. Certain defensive teams actually underprepare heavily for it, only using a primal Groudon or so to check it, meaning it has cleaning potential vs those teams. It also threatens Ho-oh, breaks Lugia, checks CM Pogre very well, and can even check mono Salamence. So overall it has some defensive use while being a pretty decent offensive threat once Pdon is gone.

palkia compared to giratina-a:

giratina-a has pressure, which means it's actually a viable win condition vs stall. I know this comes as a shock to most ppl in this community as you don't really think stall is as good as it really is, but it is mostly because I see people improving their stall team's match up vs stall with the use of stallbreakers. This is wrong because you will lose to balanced and offensive teams without devoting your entire team to walling nowadays. PP stall is a disgusting art but a necessary evil to succeed in a stall vs stall match up and I think giratina-a can pull that off. Good bulk too, allowing it to check support don (can run toxic), ho-oh (pp stall sacred fires allows mons like lugia to handle cb ho-oh better) and phaze mega mence. It resists fire and can't be trapped by shadow tag. I dont' see how it's comparable to palkia which again has no niche at all.

palkia compared to kyurem-w:

Kyurem-w's lone saving grace comes in a STAB that you don't have to bite your nails off in fear of getting stuck on a common immunity when using. And that instantly makes it a bit more viable than Palkia, though it's not a great mon by any means and should be ranked pretty low.

palkia compared to regular kyogre:

Kyogre is just as bad and should go to D too.



Aegislash talk:

It seems misunderstood around here. Pursuit, a fool proof toxic lure for pdon/ho-oh that isn't cleric bait and even a straight up ho-oh lure with head smash gives it plenty of niche over jirachi. I encourage people to use it more because I feel it's pretty unexplored. Run this set:

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 236 HP / 108 Atk / 20 Def / 144 SpD
Careful Nature
- King's Shield
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Pursuit
 
hyw said:
I believe this would be the appropriate time for the thread's moderator to ask QueenOfHax whether he would like a Burn Heal. In all seriousness though I agree with everything Level 56 said; various problems have been rendering awesome Choice Scarf users from past generations to be unviable (Genesect and Steel type nerf, Kyogre and need to hold Blue Orb, Zekrom and introduction of Fairy type). The increase in the mean bulk of all viable Pokémon in the current metagame (Primals, tendency for Ho-Oh to run special bulk to live a +2 GeoXern), coupled with the nerfing of Kyurem's main weapons, essentially warrant Choice Scarf users to be unviable holistically. If someone could name one good Choice Scarf user in ORAS Ubers I willbe impressed because I have not seen one. Other than that, yeah, all points made in an attempt to justify the strength of Kyurem-White have been brought to is knees by the 56th level of the universe get rekt gg wp nr.
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Ad hominem attacks aside, I'm merely pointing out the rather warped view on certain pokemon people seem to have on this thread. Your argument against Choice Scarf users here is a perfect example: why are we considering this particular set in a vacuum now? Scarf is merely an option the likes of Kyurem-W and Zekrom have, which may or may not work well depending on the rest of the team. Naturally you're not running Scarf on Kyu-W if your team needs to handle fatter pokemon. It's like saying that Scarf Xerneas lacks power besides Moonblast while completely disregarding its other sets. Scarf, Specs, Sub and LO sets have their uses and different counters.

To answer your question, Scarfers like Zekrom and Kyu-W have a place in offensive teams as sleep absorbers that run Sleep Talk to deal with Darkrai. Scarfers are also the best way to deal with speedy offensive threats that are bulky enough to survive a priority move but not bulky enough to take a 90-120 BP STAB move such as Mewtwo and Mega Diancie.

This also seems to be a perfect opportunity to bring up an issue that I find to be particularly annoying: why do analyses on this site mention how awesome X pokemon and/or set is and then when we discuss it here people are quick to dismiss it as crap/unviable?
From Zekrom's analysis:
Zekrom is a force to be reckoned with in the Ubers metagame, as it possesses an excellent STAB combination along with high-Base Power moves and a great Attack stat. Immunity to paralysis makes it an excellent revenge killer along with a Choice Scarf.
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There is something wrong here, and I'm pretty sure it's not the analysis.
 
analyses aren't representative of everyone's idiosyncratic views on the metagame and typically aren't contemporary due to shifts in the metagame. they are a tool to help players more easily dive into the metagame and thus develop their own opinions. ergo, referencing them isn't particularly relevant; their word isn't Final and, at the end of the day, everyone has their own style/taste [although there are certainly objective markers of what's Better]. there's no Defining Truth. this thread is kinda just trying to get ppl to come to a general consensus.
 
That's not an ad hominem. xD You make it seem as though I disregarded either's viability because of their ineffectiveness to run Scarf sets which I never said or intended but if that was a misunderstanding, sorry. :) Anyway, first, the Scarf sets. For a Scarfer to be viable, it must provide team support by checking something; it must use its item to oupace an alarming threat, thereby neutralizing it from being one. Terrakion and Ekiller, Genesect and Latios, and a plethora of other Scarfers such as the (as you have mentioned) Zekrom, as well as Kyogre and Dialga, have utilized their strong offensive presence and newfound speed to overwhelm the likes of (again, as you have mentioned) Mewtwo. The ideas I just illustrated right now is a Generation V-inclined state of mind. Yet, times have changed. When certain Pokémon appear often in a metagame the mere presence of them can render certain Pokémon and even entire playstyles unviable. This rings especially true for Zekrom as, while it was already struggling with the multitude of Grounds and Steels in Generation V, now, BOTH of its STABs have respective types that are immune to them. There may be done defensive teams that under prepare for it, as Hack said, but in all honesty, with all of the Groudon, Klefki, and Xerneas around to completely absorb an Electric or Dragon move, using Scarf Zekrom seems like a stupid idea to me. Kyurem-White is a little bit more viable than Zekrom because of its slightly higher speed allowing it to comfortably outpace 90s and spammable Ice Beam, but its crippling weakness to Stealth Rocks and the fact that on stall, Chansey stops it, on balance, Kyogre and Ho-Oh stop it, and on HO, it blasts one shot as the opponent sets up and kills you back leaving you having to deal with a set-up Xerneas or Ekiller makes it weak. The fact that these Pokémon exist means that Scarf is generally unable to produce the firepower needed to truly justify its role as a revenge-killer. I think that, in the end, 1. Kyurem-White needs hazard-removal support to avoid Rocks damage, which reduces its viability, and 2. It wasn't as powerful as before due to the proliferation of things that stop it from wreacking havoc. Also, the sleep absorber argument is invalid because letting Zekrom pick a random move in this tier is too risky and Darkrai teams which are HO will end up using Kyurem as set-up bait anyway.

Oh and also Palkia was good in Generation V because rain was huge and Palkia worked well in it, firing off insane Hydro Pumps and smacking the omnipresent Ferrothron with a Fire Blast, both things the Lati twins couldn't do. But now it serves no purpose in this tier both offensively as in BW2 and defensively as in XY so I think it should be ranked around C+ along with Zekrom, while Kyurem should get a spot a bit higher do to it still bringing muscle to the table so its place in B- along relevant to the others there seems good. Whatever happens the ranks should reflect this fact: Kyu > Zek = Kia.
 
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hyw said:
Kyu > Zek = Kia.
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zek>kyu>kia. I'm not gonna talk about Kyurem-White and Palkia because like 90% of my last several posts have focused on them, but Zekrom is a topic worth touching on. It has what I'm calling the Jibaku vs Evuelf effect of a very real thread being so hilariously underprepared for that it straight up demolishes the other team. As soon as Groudon-Primal is dead (which can be achieved very easily by pressure from mons such as Xerneas, Kyogre-Primal, even Toxic from support mons it would switch in on), it gets to spam a 130 BP STAB move off of 150 Attack. It also has the unique position of a remarkable defensive niche in being able to last-ditch check EKiller, check and/or revenge kill Ho-Oh, Yveltal and Kyogre, lure in PDon and even check bulky Megamence (or all MegaMence if holding Shuca Berry, although that seems a bit overly niche, imho).

Hack said:
regarding palkia compared to zekrom:
palkia compared to regular kyogre:

Kyogre is just as bad and should go to D too.
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I don't know if I'd support a Kyogre drop to D. PDon, as said above, gets whittled down/overloaded relatively easily, and once it's gone, ScarfKyogre decimates. I personally Blizzard on it to get to that point quicker. Lati@s are so easily gotten rid of I'm not going to spend time on them. I'm definitely not saying it's particularly good - if anything, it just enhances the match-up reliance that everyone loves about ORAS Ubers, but it has a small niche for unprepared teams. Imo Mawile-Mega and Giratina-Altered should be D, and Kyogre should be at absolute minumum C-.
 
Lord Outrage said:
So now primal Groudon is easy to whittle down, Teach me your ways master n_n
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? Don't make yourself look like a fool out of your apparent recent grudge towards me. PDon is slotted onto several teams as a Kyogre-Primal check, Fairy check, Klefki check, etc., etc. Spikes, Toxic, Ice Beams/Blizzards from Kyogre, Moonblasts (or even Focus Blasts or Grass Knots) from Xern... PDon is very easily overloaded.
 
Krauersaut said:
PDon is slotted onto several teams as a Kyogre-Primal check, Fairy check, Klefki check, etc., etc. Spikes, Toxic, Ice Beams/Blizzards from Kyogre, Moonblasts (or even Focus Blasts or Grass Knots) from Xern... PDon is very easily overloaded.
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yeah maybe people on ladder use only Don for all those roles that's totally possible but not good players lol. I support the move of regular Kyogre and Palkia to C/C-. If the best players in this tier couldn't even build 1 good team around any of those two as shown in all upl and spl battles, I don't see people looking at the viability ranking being able to do that. The maximum place they should be at is C/C-.
 
Regarding Kyurem-W

So many of you are arguing that Kyurem has the most spammable attack in the tier yet you are all forgetting you have to get the damn thing onto the field before dishing out the damage you all are speaking so highly of. Applepie's post and a few others' have explained that it has absolutely no defensive synergy provided by its awful defensive typing and gets no opportunities to do what it is supposed to do - even if so, you'll have to predict right if you're holding specs because bulky waters and some steels do exist to eat ice beams as are fairies to absorb draco; the latter move even gives your opponent a free set up with Ekiller / xerneas / pdon, or some spikes up with ferro / klefki after use.

Back to the topic of stagnation -- Kyurem's contribution to team synergy. What leaves it so lackluster in comparison to other similar wall breakers such as Latios, Rayquaza, Salamence, and xerneas, is utility. The aforementioned Pokemon do either of the following: 1) find switch in opportunities in virtue of type advantage and or Ability, and 2) have some sort of supportive qualities on a defensive standpoint, or offensive standpoint. For example, the latis have defog / healing wish / memento in addition to their respectable offenses and special bulk; Xerneas has access to aromatherapy; Salamence with intimidate and access to defog; and, Rayquaza with its access to extreme speed.

Role compression in Ubers is crucial, and every Pokemon on a team needs to contribute to the defensive synergy (not necessarily by typing and bulk, but by the ability to check/soft check the metagame's most notable threats in any way given) in some way or another. Take Rayquaza, for example. Although it has underwhelming bulk of 105 / 90 / 90, and does share a 2x weakness to Stealth Rock with Kyurem-W, it is well worth the switch in if your opponent has a weakened GeoXern steamrolling through your team, and Rayquaza is your only way to pick it off. Kyurem White possesses no such utility or redeeming qualities outside of an immense special attack stat with good stabs that it gets no opportunities to use; and even if it does, the matchup dictates what Kyurem can do to the opposing team.

Against stall, the earlier mentioned water arceus is there to take ice beams all day and has the bulk to take Draco meteor and recover spam, then some more. Blissey is a hard wall to it. Kyurem never gets a switch in against Hyper offense lest you run Sleep talk on specs/scarf expecting it to be a Darkrai check, which by that point you're praying on roles after you have switched into Rocks and spikes, just to take bad dreams damage and die to a Life Orb Dark Pulse; all while, you're locked into Sleep talk which your opponent just uses for set up fodder if Kyurem wakes up. Balance is the only matchup that Kyurem is actually useful -- it's able to switch in on some things like Def Yveltal and Lugia and it's the only scenario where you are able to endlessly spam ice beam because chip damage of any kind just neuters these teams because of how much they role compress and over-rely on certain mons to be their one-check-all to so many threats. For example, staying in on Klefki and using Ice Beam twice is well worth it if you have a Mewtwo in the back that is now able to push past it with a single Psystrike on the switch.

On a separate note - people seem to be forgetting exactly what a wallbreaker is supposed to do. All they really have to do, especially in this metagame, is chip at walls. All of this overhyped nonsense like "Kyurem-W can OHKO Yveltal Lugia Primal Groudon Klefki and Giratina huehuehue" is bullshit because in practice, all of that excess power that Kyurem has is useless -- couple this with the fact it has no defensive synergy or utility, and this leaves teambuilders to either pick a mon that does have these qualities (LATI@S/MEWTWO/PDON), or to just use entry hazards (attrition) which frankly do the same thing as wallbreakers. Stealth rock in itself is enough to allow Stone edge ekiller to break through Lugia - why would I want to waste a team slot on Kyurem-W when something as simple as Stealth rock can accomplish what I need done to win games? Granted that I do want to use a wallbreaker, I'd rather just use something like Mewtwo which has access to Taunt, hits just as hard, has neutral coverage that is comparatively just as good as Kyurem's, and base 130 speed to boot -- this is excluding the fact that it also gets a physical set which forces your opponent to bleakly guess which set you're carrying the first turn it's played. Upon encounter of a Kyurem-W, you already know two of its moves -- each and every one of its set has the same bloody coverage moves and are in relatively the same power bracket, leaving it extremely predictable and checked by the same Pokemon.

I don't know if any of you here arguing for this recall when I posted my first RMT of a team built around Kyurem-W in the XY era -- if you do, don't; however, I must display the team to exemplify how impossible it is to build with such a useless Pokemon. The team had two variants: 1) Arceus Ghost / Landorus-T / Palkia / SpD Xerneas / SD Megazor / specs Kyurem; and 2) Arceus Ghost / Landorus-T / SpD Ogre / cleric Xerneas / SD Megazor / specs Kyurem. Right away you see a huge weakness to HP Fire Geomancy Xerneas (very viable then) in the first variant, and a SpecsOgre weakness in the second. The team one way or another was weak to one of the metagame's biggest threats and there was no way to fix this problem aside from removing Kyurem-W -- which of course would have ruined the entire purpose of the team.

In teambuilding, I was essentially burdening myself by fitting in a mon that contributed absolutely nothing to the team's defensive synergy for the sake of just using the damn thing -- replacing it with something like Rayquaza would have fixed the team's issues by sourcing another form of priority, Kyogre check, wallbreaker, and ground immunity to it. Ideally the team should have been: Arceus Ghost / Landorus-T / SpD Kyogre / cleric Xern / SD Ray / Sd megazor -- Xerneas's HP fire is weakened by ogre's rain so Megazor can countersweep or just pick it off, and specs Kyogre can no longer spam ice beam or spout against the team. In the version built around Kyurem, my only hopes of ever preventing xerneas from just sweeping were to chip at it with whatever it chose to set up on, sack Kyurem because it wasn't doing shit at such a point, and go over to Scizor to pick it off. Heck, even a Zekrom could have worked in place of Kyurem to fix the CM Kyogre and waterceus weakness. Anything could have replaced Kyurem-W to make it a better team -- a team with Kyurem-W is a team of five, and it's not resourceful of a teambuilder to waste a team slot on something that checks nothing.

Comparisons between Kyurem-W and Palkia

I actually agree with this comparison and think they should be ranked together in C+. Kyurem-W can spam Ice beam with the intention of just chipping at anything possible, but Palkia literally does the same exact thing. This is where I disagree on the general consensus of Palkia's performance as an attacker -- all the 50/50 bullshit between Pdon and fairies is not true because by God you aren't using a specs or scarf Palkia and your only viable option is Lustrous orb, which can switch between its STABs and hit Pdon hard with spacial rend if it dare even stay in, and you have Hydro pump to hit xerneas and Klefki -- despite that you lose to all three of these threats 1v1, assessing trade offs isn't particularly necessary because it really isn't checking anything in the first place. For instance, is chipping Groudon for your xerneas to sweep worth taking the thunder wave or rocks set on your side? If staying in on Klefki at the cost of paralysis means you get to hit it with fire blast and sweep with Latias late game, will you do it? Of course; the problem is, it doesn't fit on teams because it's just outclassed by other attackers that fulfill other roles -- just like Kyurem-W. Perhaps Palkia can be one subrank higher than Kyurem because it has a better speed tier and access to some status moves that it can viably run like Thunder wave and toxic; but, both Kyurem and Palkia inevitably funnel down into the same category as severely outclassed attackers.
 
all the kyurem w haters saying it has no defensive synergy smh. It has no defensive synergy because ur wasting evs in speed and spa. IIRC it learns roost and it has gr8 bulk bro 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem-W in Heavy Rain: 135-160 (29.7 - 35.2%)

idk about u guys but its my favourite pogre check!!
 
magsyy said:
all the kyurem w haters saying it has no defensive synergy smh. It has no defensive synergy because ur wasting evs in speed and spa. IIRC it learns roost and it has gr8 bulk bro 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem-W in Heavy Rain: 135-160 (29.7 - 35.2%)

idk about u guys but its my favourite pogre check!!
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Lemme get this straight you are investing EVs in SpD to tank hits from Primal-Ogre but whatcha do next? Attack? LMAO
Young P-Ogre can Rest or CM Up or even scald burn and there goes ur uhh whatever that thing is.
 
Kyu > Zek = Kia.
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You've got to be kidding. Zekrom on the same level of mediocrity as Palkia?

While Zekrom is hampered by the omnipresent primal Groudon, banded sets will 2HKO it with outrage, meaning that P. Don cannot switch in with impunity. Scarfed sets can also muster a 3HKO on Primal Groudon with outrage. Before you mention that fairies can switch into it with impunity, Xerneas is RUINED by a Bolt Strike if it's not running at least 176 speed EVs and more likely than not, according to the usage statistics here: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-06/moveset/ubers-1630.txt, quite a few Xerneas aren't running enough speed EVs to outpace Zekrom.

True, Palkia isn't as good as it used to be in XY and in previous generations with Scarf Kyogre and specs Kyogre being relatively obscure, but it tends to lure primal Groudon in and can OHKO less bulky variants of P. Don when it dons Choice Specs.
 
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