ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[Dilwar]

Agree

 

[Aberforth]

I agree with Orch's order of A+ mons.

But can we get Palkia out of D? Its no worse than Arceus-Steel/Electric/Poison/Grass or mons like Kyurem-W or Mega Lopunny. It doesn't have a spammable stab but it can still wreck with Fairy Water coverage. Neither xerneas nor primal groudon are entirely comfortable switching in, modest latios makes it no longer a check to Palkia, and so can do a fair amount of work as a Balance breaker. It doesn't really switch in on anything despite generally solid bulk to take neutral hits, but if you look at balance teams in the sample thread, they both have a tough time dealing with Palkia. The diancie/ho-oh/latios team basically has arceus water (which needs to be kept healthy for groudons a lot) which can switch in 'safely' to just get killed by spacial rend + draco meteor, and everything else gets 2hkod/ohkod by it, while the other team basically has Arc water (covered already) and Klefki which gets fucked by fire blast.. Yes it is a prediction battle, but it can put a lot of pressure onto teams and shouldn't be along the likes of Reshiram and Arceus-Bug.

Palkia to C.

 

[hyw]

Orch has agreed with my order of the A+ Pokémon and has elaborated upon the bits I had forgone in my explanations; game set and match imo.

Edit
Some stuff you said were ed though like CM Waterceus? ScarfRai in ORAS? ?_? Wtf is u sayin

Also I'd like to really focus on whether Orch and my order is good or not before we get back into all the impractical theoretical rankings of Pokémon used on less than 1% of teams if we are cool with that. xd

Finally in A rank I think the first two should definitely be Mega Sableye then Deoxys-S since they define staple playstyles in the metagame and are thus extremely viable despite both being quite one-dimensional; the two are actually quite antithetical in their roles with the former hard-controlling hazards and the latter guaranteeing them with Skill Swap and speed, albeit Sableye deserves the upper-hand between the two as it also functions as a check to threats like Extreme Killer Arceus Normal. I consider the two to be so good that I don't mind bumping them up to the A+ rank.

Diancie should be A not A- too in my opinion but I'm getting ahead of myself baha.

 

[Freeroamer]

Er for me Sableye and Deo aren't really comparable as much as you make them out to be on their play styles as if Deo-S didn't exist everyone would just use Deo-A instead and while it wouldn't be as effective offense would still thrive from the instant hazards although you'd have harder time getting multiples. In the same vein though there's literally nothing ever that's comparable to the effect Sableye has on a game or anything that can come close to fulfilling its role and the team support it provides(don't say Diancie please, while its a great mon in its own right it doesn't have close to the particular assets Sableye has that allow it to enable and excel on stall orientated builds). Deo s also doesn't guarantee hazards with Skill Swap as the Diancie or Sableye user could just not mevo t1 on a predicted Skill Swap and Moonblast/Foul Play respectively and it surprises me that play isn't seen more often because let's be honest who has the balls to click SR t1 vs a bouncer...

Tl;dr Sableye should be top of A as it enables stall to be as effective as it is, while Deo should be closer to the bottom or be bottom because it's not as definitive and doesn't always succeed in its job.

 

[hyw]

-_- playing with Deoxys-S offense isn't as simple as "let me lead with it against the Magic Bouncer and gamble the coinflip." This is only true for Diancie too unless Mega Sableye critically hits you. This is why Deoxys-S and -A are completely imcomparable in this aspect as a Stealth Rock suicide lead; with the correct plays, Deoxys-Speed is at least guaranteed to get Stealth Rocks up, a formidable asset for hyperoffensive teams which boosts the effectiveness of Pokémon like Darkrai. My argument for Deoxys-S being ranked number two right beneath Mega Sableye in A rank is simply due to its ability to guarantee Stealth Rocks so surely with Skill Swap to bypass Magic Bounce and Taunt to prevent Defog attempts.

 

[Freeroamer]

If they lead their bouncer it's p much always gonna be a coinflip for you as to whether you get hazards up given that both bouncers have ways of mevoing for free granted that offense puts pressure on Diancie's tect. I might have overplayed the lead matchup but to say there's ever a series of plays from preview which guarantees hazards vs bouncers, especially vs Sableye is kinda laughable

 

[hyw]

I'm not going to argue this any further anyone who knows what their doing with Deoxys-S hyperoffensive will agree with me but hint: you never lead with Deoxys-Speed when you see a Magic Bouncer,,, xd

Edit
It's not laughable you just force the Mega Sableye to Mega Evolve and then you bring in Deoxys-Speed on something with low offensive presence and you Stealth Rock; if they go to Mega Sableye just Skill Swap then Stealth Rock...how are you now guaranteed Stealth Rocks idgi

 

[Freeroamer]

Yea you're still not explaining where the guarantee comes from but ok thanks for the meaningless hint which I already picked up on in my post above

 

[dice]

cm waterceus sucks since u cant run max speed or u lose the mence check and u lose toxic so u cant check pdon. fwiw the only deo-a set i would ever run is lo deo-a on niche offensive teams that need a mewtwo RK or lati pursuit maybe (?). i'd rank sableye > deo-s since it's more reliable by nature. also i think darkrai > gengar in a+ but it's relatively minor and i don't have a super convincing argument

 

[Nayrz]

Alright so while A- wasn't touched it appears there is some agreement on A+ and some discussion towards A but not really enough for me to make a new listing. The next week or two can sort out A mid and A-.

Updated A+ Order:

Mega Gengar
Darkrai
Arceus-Water
Lugia

re: Palkia - its still a work in progress with QC to judge if it has any redeeming sets. Expect to see any changes next update if they are found to be useful.

slowly but surely...

 

[Pokemonean]

I think that Deoxys-D should be moved up to C-. Stealth Rock and spikes, seismic toss, toxic, t-wave, and recover give it good coverage and helps it to stay alive, especially with Maxed out defense EVs.

 

[Lacus Clyne]

better use Deo-S cause ur set is set-up bait for literally everything

 

[Lord Outrage]

This is how I suggest A rank to look like:

Latios: Checks both Primals, hits really hard, has great coverage, and has Defog. My favorite set is 4 attacks and it's really great.

Deoxys-Speed: This Pokemon's ability to put Stealth Rock on the other side of the field is pretty scary. The worst case scenario is a Magic Bounce Pokemon on the opponent's team which can be played around using Skill Swap. However, that's not the main reason why it should top the A rank. When paired with Ubers threats specially Darkrai it really restricts team building and makes Darkrai and many other offensive threats very difficult to handle with Stealth Rock up.

Sableye-Mega: The Pokemon that makes stall viable. It walls lots of Pokemon that would otherwise annoy stall with their hazards and status spam like Skarmory and Ferrothorn. It checks top tier threats like Extreme Killer Arceus, Mewtwo, and Deoxys-A. It also drag the opponent into 50-50s specially when he wants to use Stealth Rock and Toxic and when he wants to use Dark Void with Darkrai.

Arceus-Ghost: Checks Extreme Killer Arceus and hits really hard at +2. It's also immune to Extreme Speed and has Extreme Speed which makes it difficult to revenge kill. Calm Mind and Defog bulky sets are not bad either. However, It's weak to Darkrai and Yveltal who totally blocks it and it also comes at the opportunity cost of not using Extreme Killer Arceus on offense.

Arceus-Ground: Great offensive Pokemon. It has a huge sweeping ability with Ground STAB and also provides defensive synergy by checking Mega Diancie and Primal Groudon. However, it can be revenge killed pretty easily by faster Pokemon like Darkrai, Shaymin, and Mewtwo.

Klefki: Good at team compression since it checks a huge portion of the metagame. It can also be used as an emergency check against some Pokemon like Mega Salamence. However, it's a free switch in to juggernauts like Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh while Block Rest Xerneas is more popular now so It should drop to A-.

 

[hyw]

This is how I suggest A rank to look like:

Latios: Checks both Primals, hits really hard, has great coverage, and has Defog. My favorite set is 4 attacks and it's really great.

Deoxys-Speed: This Pokemon's ability to put Stealth Rock on the other side of the field is pretty scary. The worst case scenario is a Magic Bounce Pokemon on the opponent's team which can be played around using Skill Swap. However, that's not the main reason why it should top the A rank. When paired with Ubers threats specially Darkrai it really restricts team building and makes Darkrai and many other offensive threats very difficult to handle with Stealth Rock up.

Sableye-Mega: The Pokemon that makes stall viable. It walls lots of Pokemon that would otherwise annoy stall with their hazards and status spam like Skarmory and Ferrothorn. It checks top tier threats like Extreme Killer Arceus, Mewtwo, and Deoxys-A. It also drag the opponent into 50-50s specially when he wants to use Stealth Rock and Toxic and when he wants to use Dark Void with Darkrai.

Arceus-Ghost: Checks Extreme Killer Arceus and hits really hard at +2. It's also immune to Extreme Speed and has Extreme Speed which makes it difficult to revenge kill. Calm Mind and Defog bulky sets are not bad either. However, It's weak to Darkrai and Yveltal who totally blocks it and it also comes at the opportunity cost of not using Extreme Killer Arceus on offense.

Arceus-Ground: Great offensive Pokemon. It has a huge sweeping ability with Ground STAB and also provides defensive synergy by checking Mega Diancie and Primal Groudon. However, it can be revenge killed pretty easily by faster Pokemon like Darkrai, Shaymin, and Mewtwo.

Klefki: Good at team compression since it checks a huge portion of the metagame. It can also be used as an emergency check against some Pokemon like Mega Salamence. However, it's a free switch in to juggernauts like Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh while Block Rest Xerneas is more popular now so It should drop to A-.

Mon amour je suis très desolé, mais je ne suis pas d'accord avec toi sur ça. xP Je t'adore, bien sûr, mais maintenant, laisse moi expliquer pourquoi je vois les choses différemment.

First of all, I think A rank should be ordered in the following: Mega-Sableye, Deoxys-Speed, Latios, Arceus-Ghost, then Klefki, whilst dropping Arceus-Ground to A-; here's why I think this way.

Before anything, I pitted Deoxys-Speed and Mega-Sableye against each other for the top two spots, and decided to give the upper hand to Mega-Sableye. This is because the two act as antithetical counterweights to each other in the ORAS metagame in guaranteeing either a successful execution of or prevention of Stealth Rocks being set upon the field. While Deoxys-Speed will always get Stealth Rock up against Mega Sableye, the Magic Bouncers more than makes up for this with its myriad of utility functions it brings to the table such as checking the most dangerous sweeper in the game, Ekiller, and rendering a good chunk of the low-offensive-presence façade of the metagame useless, like Ferrothorn, Klefki, Skarmory, and Tyranitar, and even those with higher offensive presences like Giratina-O, Mega-Kangaskhan, Mega-Mewtwo-X, defensive Yveltal, and Landorus-T. It can even come through clutch against Pokémon like Deoxys-Attack and Mewtwo, too. At the same time, on the other hand, we have Deoxys-Speed. While just the fact that it guarantees Stealth Rock alone should have given it its top spot in A (hell, these two Pokémon are so good I don't mind putting them both in A+), I believe that it is perhaps even more important to understand that without the existence of this Pokémon, Darkrai would not be even close to its offensive capacity it currently possesses. If Deoxys-Speed isn't at the apex right under Sableye-Mega, you might as well drop Darkrai's viability too since it's a really one-dimensional Pokémon with great offensive synergy with Deoxys-Speed. So yeah, the fact that these two are absolute obligatory Pokémon despite them both having opportunity cost to an extent (the former being a Mega and the latter being a Deoxys-form) really drives home just how staple these Pokémon are in shaping how principal play-styles are strategized in this metagame. tldr I am really behind an ordering of, one, Mega-Sableye, and two, Deoxys-Speed in A rank, so much so that bumping them up to A+ wouldn't get any complains from me. I think whether this is a correct train of thought should be debated first before going to the other A rank Pokémon.

This brings us to the rest of A rank, and I found this to be more difficult to sort compared to how intuitive placing the aforementioned two in the top slots was. First, let us reexamine the very definition of an A rank Pokémon's viability: "This rank is reserved for Pokemon that may have great offensive or defensive capabilities. They tend to be the first to be considered for certain roles, but may need some support to function well." While none of the four are clearly outstanding in defensive capabilities as bigger dogs like Primal Groudon, Arceus-Water, and Lugia are, I hope it is quite obvious to you all that Latios takes the cake in offensive capabilities. Lord Outrage blatantly placed it at the top of this rank and isn't not like I don't understand where his sentiment roots from; not only does this thing bear with it insane offensive presence, it can also technically perform supportive roles like Defog, spread Thunder Wave, increase staying-power with Roost, and suicide with a Memento; with a flexible movepool both offensively and defensively (and, admittedly, bad 4MSS), Latios is a notch above Arceus-Ghost and Ground in terms of viability thanks to the immediate damage output in a nuclear Draco Meteor alone, along with it a variety of unique supportive roles it can adapt to according to one's team's needs. Additionally, and perhaps equally as important, Latios is an extremely solid check to Primal Kyogre. This is important because just by adding Latios on your team, one gains the freedom in allowing for Primal Groudon to play a role outside of it being a Primal Kyogre check, leading it to more comfortably take on the plethora of threats it must face each battle such as Xerneas and Ho-Oh, intrinsically expanding the team structure's potential for innovation.

Next, I chose Arceus-Ghost. This is because it's carved out a niche as an alternative to the best Arceus form, Ekiller, as a Swords Dance sweeper, whilst also being a spin-blocker and a Ekiller check. As a result, this Pokémon is very easy to fit on offensive teams using Toxic Spikes, as Giratina-O is unfavorable on such builds, and slower offensive teams that may benefit from having a spin-blocker as it is not able to put pressure on the opponent to not spin as much as the standard hyperoffensive team does. Though, it also does not go without saying that this Pokémon is plagued with some serious flaws, to a point where I see the divide between the true kings of Ubers and the more shuffle-able Pokémon starting around here. First, the Swords Dance set pales in comparison to Ekiller neglecting the small utilities it provides like spin-blocking, checking opposing Ekillers, and serving as the team's imposter-counter, as Shadow Force is unreliable and does not do much until Arceus-Ghost has found a window to set up at least once, and its Extreme Speed is pathetically weak due to a lack of STAB. Furthermore, Arceus-Ghost is usually completely cockblocked by Yveltal, and even if you run Stone Edge, which you shouldn't since Brick Break is a lot better, Sucker Punch hurts big time. Finally, I've never been a fan of the Will-O-Wisp support set; I never see a reason to use it on balanced sun teams over Arceus-Water, it falls flat on its face against Recover and Refresh variants of Ekiller and Facade and Refresh variants of Mega-Salamence, and 85% accuracy isn't the best thing in the world to rely on as a primary countermeasure to such menacing threats. Credits to the SubCM Judgment variant, though, it works surprisingly well albeit, again, being stopped cold by stuff like Darkrai and Yveltal.

Finally, I chose Klefki. On top of everything Lord Outrage said, Klefki is pretty one-dimensional in its function... ...but, I think Outrage was a bit harsh on this thing. While I wasn't convinced by people saying Giratina-O was a good compressor, I do believe that Klefki is a great compressor. Mainly, its ability to cold turkey Darkrai, Yveltal, and standard Xerneas and Mega-Salamence is just amazing. Finding a place on a team is pretty easy thanks to the plethora of Pokémon it checks with its awesome typing and Prankster Thunder Wave, while Heal Block variants allow it to keep Xerneas from abusing it as set-up bait. Counters like Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh despite getting hit by Toxic, too, and I generally view this Pokémon as a subpar but justifiable way of keeping a competent balance team together; the definition of a good "glue" Pokémon.

And lastly, we have Arceus-Ground. I'm going to be honest, I think this thing is grossly overrated. On paper it looks great, being the only Arceus form to jab at Primal Groudon supper effectively with its STAB, but empirically, I have been extremely disappointed with how well this Pokémon fits on teams. Before anything, I want to establish that this thing is not your sole answer to Primal Groudon; the Swords Dance set running Jolly fails to KO even the frail PolishDon, which can in turn 2HKO you, while the support variant is a good counter to PolishDon, which unfortunately despises burns. While the difference between the support variant and Arceus-Water might not seem like much, the extra damage from taking Lava Plume neutrally really stacks up. :/ Its moves are awkard too, for both variants. The Swords Dance variant wants to be a Primal Groudon check but can't come in on support variants fearing the burn, rendering it useless as a Primal Groudon check (in that case, why not just use Ekiller, right?), while the support variant has a hard time justifying its position over Arceus-Water very often. As a result, I find it to be one of the lesser effective Defoggers in the tier, and in conclusion, I don't think it's really fit to find itself in A rank to begin with at all...

So yeah tldr Mega-Sableye because it's obligatory on stall, prevents hazards, and checks more things than any other Pokémon in the metagame individually, Deoxys-Speed because it's obligatory on hyperoffense, guarantees Stealth Rocks on the opponent's field, and exponentially expands the threat that other offensive Pokémon in the tier pose as a result, Latios because it checks Primal Kyogre well and thus finds good synergy with an omnipresent partner in Primal Groudon, its immediate offensive presence is a notch above the others, and its unique supportive roles are exploitable and unpredictable, Arceus-Ghost because its Swords Dance set finds an established niche on certain teams and holds potential to sweep, albeit it is marred by banes like Darkrai and Yveltal, Klefki because it's an excellent compressor and can halt the biggest threats in the tier from sweeping you, although its typing is a double-edged sword coupled with its underwhelming stats making it easily counter-able, and I nominate Arceus-Groud for not really being great at what it tries to accomplish, both as a Swords Dancer and a support set, the former often being outclassed by Ekiller or Ghostkiller and the latter often being outclassed by Arceus-Water and it not being too effective in the first place.

Sneak peak at sorting A- rank I think Diancie should definitely be the at the top in this sub-rank.

 

[Hack]

I don't usually post here much these days but I do agree with the S-rank order.

However when it gets to A+ I fail to understand the logic of viability lists once again. If viability is the amount of teams you can use said mon on Darkrai is certainly not higher than Gengar or Waterceus for me. Even if we make some minor weighting in terms of those teams' amount of success (the standard HO is a very successful team, but honestly one of the few teams Darkrai fits on) I still don't feel like Darkrai is such an easy mon to build with. It's certainly one of the most annoying mons in the tier, and it forces a lot of teambuilding restrictions (such as the need for a sleep absorber/magic bouncer+additional check on balance), but it doesn't make for a very splashable mon in itself. It's kinda like Deoxys-S I feel, although it probably deserves a tad higher placing.

Waterceus and Gengar are for me "safer" options, I'd go as far as to say the former is borderline S-rank, and Gengar provides a win condition and an Ekiller answer with its wisp+hex+fblast+protect set.

A rank I totally disagree with Klefki being worse than before- in fact I think the opposite is true. Klefki is the face of ORAS Ubers balance and is one of the very few ways for those teams to check Darkrai/Latios reliably. Block Xerneas should in no way lessen its viability as it fits well together with additional Xerneas checks such as Primal Groudon and Ho-oh. I was actually thinking about reliable Latios answers on balance the other day and honestly they are few and far between. You can't simply run an arbitrary steel on most balance builds; you would need a fairy to cover darks and that in turn leaves you with a horrible Ho-oh weakness. Unless you are running Diancie+a [non klefki]steel type on balance, which is perfectly fine, but there are only so many variants of that type of team.

In my opinion Klefki is the best of the A-ranks, followed closely by Latios and then Mega Sableye. Latios is indeed very good but every team does not need what it has to offer, namely the Primal checking+ the usual defog. Klefki's services are almost always welcome for balance as it is super consistent at what it needs to do and has tools to prevent its checks from taking total advantage of it in return. Mega Sableye is very good but has to contend a bit more with opportunity cost issues, it won't quite fit on as many teams as the other two.

After that comes Deoxys-S, which yes, is by nature forcing a more unreliable playstyle upon the user. It is very hard for players with little experience in the tier to handle the standard HO, hell it probably took me 6 months to grasp it, but after all there are many things that can go wrong for the HO user against an experienced opponent. I want to note that Deoxys-S in itself is very reliable (as Hyw pointed out in his post on how to play it vs magic bouncers), it's the playstyle as a whole that can backfire.

Then come the Arceus. Ghost followed by Ground or Ground followed by Ghost. I don't really care. Actually probably put Groundceus above- it has the option to run toxic/ice beam/judgment/recover as well as its usual SD set. The former set has a somewhat relevant defensive niche, which I think is larger than whatever the hell a Ghostceus does.

A- rank I feel Latias and Mega-Diancie are by far the best mons in. I'd probably get Giratina-O up in A- third spot. After that Primal Kyogre, Rayquaza, Deoxys-A and Rockceus take the following spots, in that order.

Mewtwo probably deserves to stay in A- (almost not though) as some teams can be quite weak to it. Dialga I'm on the fence about, I don't really think there has been any notable teams made with it and it is such a bland mon. Feels niche enough to be B+ for me.

Yveltal should drop the shit out of A- though. It is an absolute horrible mon and I can't fathom why people still use it. Even when its left relatively unchecked there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be a determining force in winning a game. Its LO set is usually seen on the most bland offenses in the tier. They usually (read always) lack the physically defensive backbone to stand up to strong HO and Ho-oh balance, and they often just crumble to stall as well. The pairing of Gengar+Yveltal is very much out of fashion and using to extraneous team member's like Latias and Klefki to cover weaknesses of Yveltal just leads to that exact lack of physical bulk. The defensive set is absolutely horrible as well. It's just a big question mark as an Ekiller check as being SR weak+stone edge prone with very restricted physical bulk to begin with often leads into the charti set, which is worn down very easily. And yeah it's just about bait for everything (Msab, Diancie, Xern), and while it can remedy this issue by using U-turn, it will just lead to the lack of another somewhat important move. Admittedly the Heat Wave LO sets can do some good job in luring out a Klefki early, but there are various types of counterplay to that strategy (mainly the Klefki user having Ho-oh as a pivot).

 

[Fireburn]

I agree with Hack's order for A.

A- I'd probably do Mega Diancie/Giratina-O=Latias/PKyogre/Rayquaza/Deoxys-A/Mewtwo/Arceus-Rock/Yveltal

Mega Diancie has obvious Magic Bounce utility which makes it easy to justify on many builds and is a pretty large offensive threat to balance squads that rely on Klefki + Fire-types to beat Fairies. It benefits quite a bit from Arceus-Water not hitting the 110 benchmark nowadays (Lord Outrage's balance squad just rolls over to this thing if PDon and Arceus-Water are weakened), as well as CM Arceus in general becoming much rarer. It also works on bulkier teams as a solid Dark and bird check, and it provides Heal Bell utility which is always nice.

Giratina-O blanket checks most physical mons and provides Defog and Priority. Pretty easy to fit onto teams and its weaknesses are easily covered (KEYS LOL).

Latias I tend to use less overall than Latios, but its not bad by any means and its bulk and Healing Wish have their uses. That being said I do tend to prefer Latios on most balance builds just because of how juicy its power is so I'm not sure if Latias should take the #2 spot, should be top 3 in A- though.

Deoxys-A and Mewtwo are pretty similar to me - fast Psychic attackers without much defensive use that some builds can be rather weak to. I don't like using hazards Deoxys-A because it gets trolled hard by Mega Sableye and it can't really give up a moveslot for Skill Swap, but Pursuit utility for Latis + Gar is a nice edge.

Arceus-Rock is a bit hard to justify nowadays since its a Groudon-weak bulky Arceus, but it is still the best bird check and it can still use CM effectively since it beats the most common CM Arc check.

I feel like Yveltal is undervalued a little...I know it only really checks Ghostceus well (still nice though) but Ground immune + Psychic check is nice and it's a pretty mean balance breaker with the right tools. Strong priority utility is still pretty good as well. I've been experimenting with Knock Off on the LO set and its a pretty nice catch-all towards messing up its checks - it does about 45 to Klefki and removes its Leftovers which leaves it in a range to be 2HKOed by most anything it tries to come into next, Ho-Oh is no longer a good pivot, TTar loses its Leftovers/Chople for Gengar, and Blissey just gets turned into paste. Hex Gar is really good against Tyranitar but not so much vs Blissey which is where Knock Yveltal comes in to blow up the rest of the stall team (assuming you run enough Speed on LO Yveltal to beat 56 Arceus which really you should be doing). I'd probably throw Yveltal at the bottom of A-, but I think it's still just good enough to be higher than B.

I don't mind Dialga going to B+.

 

[Lord Outrage]

I disagree with Hack on Klefki. You are really overrating it too much.
1) Almost dead weight versus stall. While it can switch in on Lugia, the presence of Mega Sableye and Primal Groudon together limits it greatly.
2) Blocked by any Mega Diancie team. Most of those teams have Primal Groudon or/and Ho-Oh paired with Mega Diancie which really blocks the Klefki user. If he chooses to hit and the opponent goes to Ho-Oh or Primal Groudon there will be damage even on checks(Rockceus or Waterceus might get burned) and if he chooses status or Spikes and the opponent goes to Mega Diancie that's also another problem to worry about.
3) Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Extreme Killer all S rank Pokemon and can switch in on Klefki and hit really hard or set up.

I agree it has advantages specially the ones Hack talked about but It should never top A rank. It should actually be bottom or just above the Arceus formes.

Also Dialga should never drop below A-. It is one of the few Pokemon that can set up Stealth Rock against stall in the tier. It also checks Mega Salamence and Extreme Killer Arceus. It also releases Primal Groudon from Stealth Rock duties so it can be used to break stall. It has 2 much utility to drop.

Yveltal should also stay in A-. Charti Berry Yveltal is an all around check to all offensive Pokemon. It checks Extreme Killer, Mega Salamence(Lives a +1 Double Edge), Primal Groudon, offensive Arceus Ground, and offensive Arceus Ghost. It also checks Latis, Deo-A and Mewtwo. It also has a strong priority and U-Turn to play around its checks. I mean isn't its utility really obvious and does it cover a lot defensively? I do use it a lot on many of my most successful teams.

 

[Fireburn]

I disagree with Lord Outrage disagreeing with Hack on Klefki.

1. Play Rough does a pretty respectable chunk of damage to Mega Sableye (35-42), so if it's a little weakened it has a pretty good shot at being 2HKOed. Immunity to Toxic and SR resistance also lets Klefki survive a long time vs stall, usually long enough for your SR PDon to get that crucial hit onto Sableye or soften their Defog up. Sableye isn't always gonna be at full HP!
2. Klefki does have the option of running Flash Cannon to crush Mega Diancie (which is a legit option since many Klefki teams are weakish to this mon). I also don't get your prediction argument - if Waterceus or Rockceus come in on Klefki while burned they still have to waste a turn either Defogging the Spikes you set up and taking more burn damage or they Recover and don't get to Defog yet. Klefki also isn't particularly bothered by either status it can inflict (immune to Poison, TWave stops it from getting burned) so if your Mega Diancie check (hi Arceus-Ground) is still intact you can just keep chipping it with Play Rough, Diancie is strong but it wont last forever...with 56 Atk EVs Play Rough is a guaranteed 3HKO on Mega Diancie so it cannot switch in on Klefki ad infinitum.
3. And? You run checks to them. You need checks to them regardless if they're S rank mons. This doesn't affect Klefki's splashability (is this a word) in the slightest. Toxic is a pretty good deterrent for the Fire-types at least.

BlockRest GeoXern is also a gimmick set that trades being able to beat Klefki for being worse against literally everything else. It also still loses to Heal Block Klefki sets. It shouldn't really be factored into Klefki's ranking.

Primal Groudon can easily run Rocks + SD which allows it to set up rocks vs stall AND do stallbreaking. This isn't unique to Dialga. It's also not very splashable on most teams when PDon is already such a good Stealth Rock user and doesn't check too much defensively outside of Mence (which is useful but still).

 

[Hack]

Yeah Fireburn pointed out pretty much what I wanted to say; Klefki is obviously not bad vs Mega Diancie for multiple reasons even if it doesn't run flash cannon. Diancie has shown to have trouble in outlasting stuff several times in my experience, check my first seasonal game vs Benbe and to an extent my third open game vs Bouff (though a crit eventually ruined that game) for practical examples.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-297270003
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-98734

Just also wanna add that the fact that you can force such a passive pkmn as Sableye to recover literally every time it switches in on you makes Klefki not entirely useless vs stall, which is beside the point anyway because it synergizes well with top-notch stallbreakers like Ho-oh and Gengar.

#3 just seems like a bad point. Although the metagame is centralized around Pdon an EQ weakness doesn't necessarily mean Klefki is a straight up liability. Do you mean to tell me that you can get away with having a quality check to Darkrai, Lati@s, Yveltal, Xern (and might I add an emergency check to much, much more) that isn't weak to Primal Groudon or Ho-oh? Or do you simply not account for these threats when building just because you are using "Pdon weak pkmn" then? Not only that but I will say again that toxicing Pdon on the switch is abolutely huge, so it doesn't even lack counterplay.

I won't argue more about Dialga, I've literally not seen a good team with it and being used on a good team every once in a while seems like a suitable criteria for mons above C rank or something.

Dice once said something along the lines of "I consider Yveltal to be as bad of a check to Pdon as Ho-oh is", and I partially agree with that statement. Honestly I think it's worse than that depending on your viewpoint. Yveltal gets owned by any fire move, rock moves, thunder wave, while the only thing Ho-oh really doesn't handle is the rock move. Which may or may not be more common, so it's just my perspective on it. However, being unable to most variants of Primal Groudon would be fine as long as its defensive set could handle more stuff, right? Yeah see, it really doesn't. I get nightmares from even thinking about building with this thing- how exactly would I play this thing to check Outrage's supposed list of threats constisting of Mence, Ekiller, Latios (???), Arceus-Ground and Mewtwo. Like it's not really as fun in practice, assume Charti and Mence kills after rocks with double edge. Assume a return+bulkier mence and it lives the foul play. You really wanna play sucker punch mindgames vs the most threatening sweeper in the tier after that (in extension, do you even want to run sucker punch on a defensive yveltal in the first place?)? And like, bulky Ekiller became a thing again. Too bad foul play doesn't kill that back either. And without charti- which you could burn on switching into a Pdon or something earlier in the game- you straight up lose to stone edge jolly ekiller. And are we going to pretend this supposed physical tank takes on any special attackers aside ghostceus? Mewtwo 2HKOs, Latios just straight up OHKOs after SR... Assume sucker punch for whatever reason and you still just waste a turn vs some things you use it vs, because switching into Yveltal isn't exactly hard.

 

[dice]

yveltal sucks lol. ur eschewing the best balance mon in the tier with way better resistances for a weak mon with poor stabs and an intrinsic case of 4mss. woo hoo it checks mewtwo unlike ho-oh good thing u lose to half the metagame now.

 

[DoubleOD]

Specs Yveltal beats every variant of PDon 1v1 from full health barring hax - PDon will not OHKO and any PDon fast enough to outspeed is not bulky enough to take a Dark Pulse [seriously with no investment you are OHKO'd. You also risk the flinch]

 

[Krauersaut]

specs yveltal is disgustingly bad lol. not even gonna waste time elaborating.

everything's been said for A rank, hack's got that one down (although i wouldn't put klefki at the top, that mon gets overloaded way too easily and has a really terrible matchup vs stall, like outrage said, although i suppose thats true for 90% of oras balance).

as for (A-) rank, i'd go with Mega Diancie / Giratina-O / Rayquaza / Deo-A / POgre / Latias / Mewtwo / Rockceus / Yveltal, based on a combination of their niches, how well they do in current meta and well as how they generally fare vs all archetypes. can elaborate if necessary but it's 11:00 p.m and i stop functioning after 9 ;]

 

[dice]

deo-a should be below mewtwo.

mega-diancie / giratina-o / p-ogre / rayquaza / latias / yveltal / mewtwo / arceus-rock / deoxys-attack is the order i would go.

i like pogre more than most ppl since i find that it can be rly potent. not a big fan of defense sets but they're ok i guess. maybe mewtwo should be above yveltal because it causes more strain in the teambuilder (even if yveltal didn't exist, darkrai would still necessitate the same preperation.. but doe sthis take away from yveltal?) but it's only a fit on hyper offensive teams that can abandon typical 'checking' norms. i think arceus-rock is the most niche shit ever but wutevz. also think deo-a sucks since i'd only ever use life orb and i've never used life orb so what's that saying about the mon.

 

[Nayrz]

Alright so A rank had some agreements and disagreements, but I managed to get a list that should hopefully please the masses. If there is a disagreement and a majority agree with the idea then that can be rechanged around next update.

Updated A (Mid) Order

Latios
Klefki
Mega Sableye
Deoxys-Speed
Arceus-Ground
Arceus-Ghost

Updated A- Order

Mega Diancie
Giratina-O < this mon was actually in B+ before now wtf
Latias
Primal Kyogre
Rayquaza
Deoxys-A
Mewtwo
Arceus-Rock

Yveltal: A- >>> B+
Dialga: A- >>> B+

Both had relevant points for dropping, and dropping one is gonna result in "why not the other?" which is a relevant question. Both of them have had their A- spot questioned for some time now.
I also changed the "mon-Mega/mon-Primal" stuff to the way its usually done... I dont remember why this was a thing but our analyses don't follow this format so why would our thread?

Because of the size of the upcoming ranks and to avoid diluting discussion, we're gonna take them one at a time. Next week will be sorting out B+ rank!

 

[Peli]

My opinion on the order B+ mons

B+

• 
  Yveltal - This mon is just better then everything that it is grouped with. Amazing versatility in defensive, offensive, and stall breaking sets, gets access to strongest priority in the game in boosted Sucker Punch. Yveltal should rise back to A-
  
• 
  Dialga- Runs efficient lead set that gets the job done, with coverage that is very tough to switch into coming off good offensive stats. Can run the combo of Thunder to annoy waterceus and ogre or edge for ho-oh, flash cannon for xern, and draco for everything else
• 
  Skarmory - Does its job in a fantastic manner, countering everything it is supposed to: Mence, Ekiller, Groundceus, Pdon w/o fire move (granted plume is fairly common recently)
  
• 
  Shaymin-Sky - Great speed, flinch chance, hard to switch into, access to hwish. weak to rocks and easily worn down
• 
  Mega Mewtwo Y - Huge opportunity cost, can do the taunt and cm sets well with a great speed tier.
  
• 
  Tyranitar - Primal bate, traps twins, decent bird check
  
• 
  Mega Kangaskhan - Strong, struggles with ghost types in the tier, easily worn down, underwhelming for a mega
• 
  Excadrill - I think thugly said it best "Dc at all about Excadrill anymore despite some users such as Hack and Mr.378 agree that it should be in B; hazard lead sucks as I've said in my last post regarding it, and swords dance + sand is the most consistent set it has and can do a number to stall and balance." Drop exca to B